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I was discussing this with a couple friends over lunch, figured I'd ask dakdak too. I don't like political discussions much, but this is an issue that hits close to home, since I've gone to the Occupy DC a couple times in the last few weeks, and I'd like your opinion.

Most people I know have absolutely no interest or opinion in the 'occupy movement' other than "Probably won't go anywhere". I think this opinion might have something to do with the media's portrayal of the movement as mainly consisting of young men and women of middle class backgrounds who use twitter, facebook and apple products... "hipsters", basically. But I've been down there. It's not really like that at all, although they certainly are people like that. People of all shapes and sizes are participating. Gun nuts, federal employees, journalists, scientists, financial people, everything.

But (In my opinion), the movement has an undeniable truth to it, and the message is easy to relate to. Why don't more people get into it? All it requires you to do is stand around and talk to people for a couple hours. It's not an issue of religion, race or sexual orientation. This is basically an every-man's protest.

So. Aside from the media's general derision to the movement, do you think that the image of "hipsters" is giving the occupy movement a bad reputation? Or is it the opposite? Is it encouraging youth to join?

Yes.

Wow corpses, that was fast. Thanks.

I honestly considered typing out a longer post but gave up so I could have been even faster.

Really the only reasons the occupy wall street lot have a bad reputation are the hipsters who are protesting for the sake of it and the whining upper middle class students.

Samus_aran115 wrote:But (In my opinion), the movement has an undeniable truth to it, and the message is easy to relate to. Why don't more people get into it? All it requires you to do is stand around and talk to people for a couple hours. It's not an issue of religion, race or sexual orientation. This is basically an every-man's protest.

Can you clearly state the movement's message? What are the goals? What is their plan of action to achieve those goals? What is their plan to clearly state their message and goals?

Answer those and no one will give a darn about hipsters. Instead they will focus on those answers.

Jake

CptJake wrote:

Samus_aran115 wrote:But (In my opinion), the movement has an undeniable truth to it, and the message is easy to relate to. Why don't more people get into it? All it requires you to do is stand around and talk to people for a couple hours. It's not an issue of religion, race or sexual orientation. This is basically an every-man's protest.

Can you clearly state the movement's message? What are the goals? What is their plan of action to achieve those goals? What is their plan to clearly state their message and goals?

Answer those and no one will give a darn about hipsters. Instead they will focus on those answers.

Jake

This is my view as well. Without an endgame, a victory condition, even a pie in the sky one, there's nothing rational to work toward and you end up aimlessly yelling at windmills.

Even an impossible goal is still a precise direction to aim in. But keep in mind that if the stated goal is too insane, you lose basically all of the normal people.

If it were me (and it's not so oh well) I would have OWS demand the reinstatement of the entirety of glass-steagall. No other demands. March on both washington and wall street every day until that happens. Keep it simple, keep it in the news, keep people talking. If they demanded the return of GS, I would go march.

CptJake wrote:

Samus_aran115 wrote:But (In my opinion), the movement has an undeniable truth to it, and the message is easy to relate to. Why don't more people get into it? All it requires you to do is stand around and talk to people for a couple hours. It's not an issue of religion, race or sexual orientation. This is basically an every-man's protest.

Can you clearly state the movement's message? What are the goals? What is their plan of action to achieve those goals? What is their plan to clearly state their message and goals?

Answer those and no one will give a darn about hipsters. Instead they will focus on those answers.

Jake

I totally agree. Every protest that's gone anywhere usually has these answers, but occupy doesn't. I didn't go down there with intent to the answers to these questions. I went down there to show my moral support for their general message, which is (from what I gathered): "To protest and eventually eliminate financial 'dishonesty' (Underhanded business methods, I suppose)" and "To promote a more evenly balanced tax code for individuals of all incomes"

I think that there are definitely some big thinkers in the occupy movement, and I don't think that the movement has necessarily matured to the point where there's a group that will be willing to come forth with a solution (Mainly because of the insistence of the 'leaderless revolution' thing). Eventually the movement will either come up with clear solutions, or it will fade into nothing. If the former occurs, I'd imagine that it would pick up more steam and not be such a trifle to the media.

Waiting on the NASCAR wreck

I go to a school that is flooded with a lot of NYC hipsters.

They are in fact the most annoying people on the face of the earth.

Hipsters destroyed the fedora, The trench coat. Your fashion style looks like a train wreck.

Please avoid any temptation you have to educate me while I'm trying to drink my beer in piece, despite how much reticent knowledge you have gained from your freshman level class.


Wearing an NFL jersey does not make me a slave of the corporate machine. Unless you agree wearing a t-shirt with 80s and 90s cartoons and video games makes you one too you fruity jagabg.






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CptJake wrote:

Can you clearly state the movement's message? What are the goals? What is their plan of action to achieve those goals? What is their plan to clearly state their message and goals?

Answer those and no one will give a darn about hipsters. Instead they will focus on those answers.

Jake

Most are goals are similar.

Ending bought and paid for politicians by major corporations and banks (this is mainly one of the few things I agree with most). But it takes 2 tango.

Universal health care or Medicare for all.

Government paying for all student loan debt. (Not sure how they expect that work?)

Job creation

ending the out sourcing of jobs (another idea I agree with)

Then you get a lot more scattered ideas, like ending the fed, going back to the gold standard, and many more)

The biggest ideas are there and out in public, not hard to find. As far as finding how to achieve those ideas, I have no clue. They have no organization at a official level. No statesman or politician running on those ideas. They blame both Democrats and Republicans for this mess (but mostly Republicans, or so it seems to me).

I really don't see there goals transferring into anything legitimacy as far as laws go at its current state.

Ending bought and paid for politicians by major corporations and banks (this is mainly one of the few things I agree with most). But it takes 2 tango.

Universal health care or Medicare for all.

Government paying for all student loan debt. (Not sure how they expect that work?)

Job creation

ending the out sourcing of jobs (another idea I agree with)

This being the most likely reason why no politicians are backing it. The goals are too scattered, and not all politicians can agree with all of them. Even below that, intelligent people in the movement who can attempt to make decisions can't please everyone.

I like your account of your experience at the protest. Most of these guys who will post here in response to your topic are very passionate about their opposition to the occupy movement, and they will tell you about it too! But I'm afraid the guys that have started and will continue to grill you only really want to hear stories that back up their own opinions, as if to provide validation. This is perfectly normal human behavior, but not productive in a debate like this.

I appreciate hearing your account of the occupy movement from your point of view:
"People of all shapes and sizes are participating. Gun nuts, federal employees, journalists, scientists, financial people, everything."

All we seem to talk about here are shanty towns, crapping in parks, and other things that illustrate only the worst possible behavior of humanity. The opposition to the Occupy movement is using only the worst images and stories to illustrate their point. I have heard the unrealistic de-humanizing terms "hippies" and now "hipsters" used repeatedly to try and generalize the Occupy Protestors into some "Anti-American" group that can be HATED by many without thought.

De-humanizing your enemy in order to validate your own hatred is a technique that has been used since civilization began to goad men into doing horrible things to other human beings.

dsteingass wrote:I like your account of your experience at the protest. Most of these guys who will post here in response to your topic are very passionate about their opposition to the occupy movement, and they will tell you about it too! But I'm afraid the guys that have started and will continue to grill you only really want to hear stories that back up their own opinions, as if to provide validation. This is perfectly normal human behavior, but not productive in a debate like this.

I appreciate hearing your account of the occupy movement from your point of view:
"People of all shapes and sizes are participating. Gun nuts, federal employees, journalists, scientists, financial people, everything."

All we seem to talk about here are shanty towns, crapping in parks, and other things that illustrate only the worst possible behavior of humanity. The opposition to the Occupy movement is using only the worst images and stories to illustrate their point. I have heard the unrealistic de-humanizing terms "hippies" and now "hipsters" used repeatedly to try and generalize the Occupy Protestors into some "Anti-American" group that can be HATED by many without thought.

De-humanizing your enemy in order to validate your own hatred is a technique that has been used since civilization began to goad men into doing horrible things to other human beings.

QFT

Rented Tritium wrote:
This is my view as well. Without an endgame, a victory condition, even a pie in the sky one, there's nothing rational to work toward and you end up aimlessly yelling at windmills.

I don't think that's really the issue. While OWS hasn't reached the level of demand focus that the Tea Party has, it seems to be at about the same level of development we saw when the Tea Party first hit the national scene; ie. vague demands like "fiscal responsibility" viz. "end corporate welfare".

I think, ultimately, the issue that OWS is running into (aside from their own lack of organization) is that corporatism and a hostility towards government are deeply ingrained into the American political culture. This makes it relatively difficult to organize (because without institutional structures based on sympathetic principles, organization is fairly hard) and appeal to the political mainstream; which ultimately means that coming at the issue in a half-assed way (as has happened) is unlikely to succeed. In essence, OWS can't depend on general sympathy, as the Tea Party could, they have to make a coherent argument and they have failed to do so.

Behind all the negative aspects, what will really last from this movement, and the Tea Party movement is that People will stand around and talk about ideas. Some ideas might work, some will be unpopular, some will be crazy. After the park-crapping has ceased, people will still be talking about ideas. At least I hope so.

dsteingass wrote:Behind all the negative aspects, what will really last from this movement, and the Tea Party movement is that People will stand around and talk about ideas. Some ideas might work, some will be unpopular, some will be crazy. After the park-crapping has ceased, people will still be talking about ideas. At least I hope so.

I really hope so too. If nothing else, this movement sparks a bit of curiosity and unrest among people who can coherently formulate plans of actions.

Dogma, your post was fantastic, as usual.

The ONE thing that the OWS and the Tea Party have in common though is the belief that our government isn't doing their jobs from their point of view. I thnk this is the beginning of something. I don't know what, but I don't think it will be short-lived.

Piston Honda wrote:I go to a school that is flooded with a lot of NYC hipsters.

They are in fact the most annoying people on the face of the earth.

Hipsters destroyed the fedora, The trench coat. Your fashion style looks like a train wreck.

Please avoid any temptation you have to educate me while I'm trying to drink my beer in piece, despite how much reticent knowledge you have gained from your freshman level class.


Wearing an NFL jersey does not make me a slave of the corporate machine. Unless you agree wearing a t-shirt with 80s and 90s cartoons and video games makes you one too you fruity jagabg.






Automatically Appended Next Post:

CptJake wrote:

Can you clearly state the movement's message? What are the goals? What is their plan of action to achieve those goals? What is their plan to clearly state their message and goals?

Answer those and no one will give a darn about hipsters. Instead they will focus on those answers.

Jake

Most are goals are similar.

Ending bought and paid for politicians by major corporations and banks (this is mainly one of the few things I agree with most). But it takes 2 tango.

Universal health care or Medicare for all.

Government paying for all student loan debt. (Not sure how they expect that work?)

Job creation

ending the out sourcing of jobs (another idea I agree with)

Then you get a lot more scattered ideas, like ending the fed, going back to the gold standard, and many more)

The biggest ideas are there and out in public, not hard to find. As far as finding how to achieve those ideas, I have no clue. They have no organization at a official level. No statesman or politician running on those ideas. They blame both Democrats and Republicans for this mess (but mostly Republicans, or so it seems to me).

I really don't see there goals transferring into anything legitimacy as far as laws go at its current state.

RIP fedora

I mean WTF is this!?!



Or this



I mean seriously, hats are not Marylyn Monroe, they do not get "blown up" in the back by street level vents


A true fedora however does effect the dress of the worlds Monroe's by raising it up in the back. For instance this one is granting its owner a view of the holiest of holies.


Know who else got to look up Marylyn's skirt?

John F Kennedy

How did he manage it you may well ask?


BAM! Mutha f***ing fedora

Ending bought and paid for politicians by major corporations and banks (this is mainly one of the few things I agree with most). But it takes 2 tango.

Universal health care or Medicare for all.

Government paying for all student loan debt. (Not sure how they expect that work?)

Job creation

ending the out sourcing of jobs (another idea I agree with)

So essentially socialism not only under a different name but mined so that only the benefits to current society are being 'preached' for wnat of a better term?
Karl: 1
The West: 0

I despise that hipsters have turned the peacoat, a noble and virtuous naval garment into a common coat for the average shlub. My mother earned the right to wear her peacot, and the right to pass it on to me to wear in the cold, cold winter. I am not a hipster because I wear a peacoat.

I am also not a hipster for wearing my father's USMC trenchcoat, that he gave to me.

I am also not a hipster for wearing my M65 field jacket, also given to me by my father.

Anyway, I feel like this thread has served it's purpose. Feel free to lock it mods. Unless anyone has anything else to state that hasn't been stated on the other occupy threads


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Krellnus wrote:

Ending bought and paid for politicians by major corporations and banks (this is mainly one of the few things I agree with most). But it takes 2 tango.

Universal health care or Medicare for all.

Government paying for all student loan debt. (Not sure how they expect that work?)

Job creation

ending the out sourcing of jobs (another idea I agree with)

So essentially socialism not only under a different name but mined so that only the benefits to current society are being 'preached' for wnat of a better term?
Karl: 1
The West: 0

Um, not exactly. Unless you're trolling.

You are speaking in absolutes and using negative terms such as "socialism". Please tell us why this is "socialism under another name"?

Karl? Are you referring to Karl Marx? Why does he get a point?

Pretty much every leftwing movement gets dismissed as a collection of ferals and trendy young nobobies who need to get out and get a job. It's easy, and more often than not it's pretty much right.

I mean, look at the Occupy movements outside of the US, you've basically got the same collection of professional protestors that turn up to every movement like this.

I think the movement in the US could be different to that, because there are real, fundamental issues that need to be resolved and a genuine level of dissatisfaction across the population, but being a leftwing, and therefore generally youth focussed movement, there will be a struggle to get past that perception.

As for the movement itself, I think what it's done so far has been exactly right. It's gotten people to pay attention to them, and it's gotten the people involved to identify with the movement, to think of themselves as 'occupiers'. The next step is to start building a list of real, achievable goals they think they can achieve. That'll be the hard bit.

Krellnus wrote:So essentially socialism not only under a different name but mined so that only the benefits to current society are being 'preached' for wnat of a better term?
Karl: 1
The West: 0

Try reading.

Samus_aran115 wrote:Wow corpses, that was fast. Thanks.

Bow-chika... you know the rest.

OWS lost the point it was trying to make when anger took over. Yesterday and today has escalated to a point where OWS are brazenly becoming a bunch of knuckleheads. Everyone going to remember OWS later on in a couple years but not the message. All they're going to remember is public urination and defecation, rapes, drug use, mix messages, blocking of wallstreet employers, disruption of other worksites, disrupting traffic, shooting at the W.H. , threatening to burn down a city, basically fuel for the fire for a headline news. OWS wanted attention so all can hear them roar and what they have to say. Everyone else is looking at clean up, arrests, traffic jams, overtime for the cops, violence of the protest and about every other negative silly grab arse the OWS did. The message. is. lost. now.

JIhadin just confirmed my earlier point. To him the message is lost because he isn't interested in their point. Just because I am not interested in baseball does not mean that it doesn't exist. I cannot go around saying baseball doesn't exist when it does, i'd look like a looney.

Hipsters give anything a bad name.

The message is quite clear to those ready to listen to it.

A lot of people at many levels of society are feeling ripped off by the government, the banks, the media and in general the "power elite".

They resent working hard (if they can even get a job), for below inflation pay rises, while paying high taxes to bail out rich bankers, the Greeks, pay the tube drivers massive wages, and pay unemployed people massive benefits to live in central London while they themselves are forced to live in small cottages long, expensive, tiring journeys away.

At the same time, the much-vaunted government austerity measures have resulted in the deficit increasing in 46 billion this year, and the prospect of a double dip recession.

There is a simmering undercurrent of anger and resentment that a small number of people are doing very well out of things while the general mass in the middle, who pay for it all, are having a very hard time.

Samus_aran115 wrote:I was discussing this with a couple friends over lunch, figured I'd ask dakdak too. I don't like political discussions much, but this is an issue that hits close to home, since I've gone to the Occupy DC a couple times in the last few weeks, and I'd like your opinion.

Most people I know have absolutely no interest or opinion in the 'occupy movement' other than "Probably won't go anywhere". I think this opinion might have something to do with the media's portrayal of the movement as mainly consisting of young men and women of middle class backgrounds who use twitter, facebook and apple products... "hipsters", basically. But I've been down there. It's not really like that at all, although they certainly are people like that. People of all shapes and sizes are participating. Gun nuts, federal employees, journalists, scientists, financial people, everything.

But (In my opinion), the movement has an undeniable truth to it, and the message is easy to relate to. Why don't more people get into it? All it requires you to do is stand around and talk to people for a couple hours. It's not an issue of religion, race or sexual orientation. This is basically an every-man's protest.

So. Aside from the media's general derision to the movement, do you think that the image of "hipsters" is giving the occupy movement a bad reputation? Or is it the opposite? Is it encouraging youth to join?

They are the absolute worst people to do this.
Out of work steel workers marching - there you go.
Losers twittering to mom for mom money can suck my balls.


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Jihadin wrote:Waiting on the NASCAR wreck

Sorry I just got here, time to get this thread loose and put it into the wall...

Frazzled wrote:
Losers twittering to mom for mom money can suck my balls.

According to this Fast Company article about 1/3 of supporters are over 35.

dogma wrote:

Frazzled wrote:
Losers twittering to mom for mom money can suck my balls.

According to this Fast Company article about 1/3 of supporters are over 35.

Hippies and college professors (and reporters...) same difference.

As noted, put 100,000 autoworkers on march decrying the outsourcing of jobs, Frazzled's in support.
50,000 soccer moms thinking of the children ( ) in a giant soccermobile parade you have my attention.

These guys? You have my call to get the soap. Now that they're getting violent time to taze them on tv bro, for my amusement.

Frazzled wrote:
Hippies and college professors (and reporters...) same difference.

As noted, put 100,000 autoworkers on march decrying the outsourcing of jobs, Frazzled's in support.

So, basically, you care more about the aesthetic appeal of who happens to be protesting, than what they're protesting?