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The video of the woman ranting against black and Polish people ("What has this country come to? ... with loads of black people and load of fething Polish") on the Croydon to Wimbledon tram has caused quite a stir, generating quite a storm on social media and swiftly leading to an arrest. But I have to say it strikes me as one of the less shocking videos I've seen in my lifetime. Compared to footage of guys filming themselves attacking "pakis" on the tube, the storm over this video looks no worse than an argument over whether X Factor tweeters should be publicly flogged or not.
In fact, it reminded me a little of the brilliant sketch by Stewart Lee where his nan says: "It's political correctness gawn mad Stew". I can imagine the woman leaving the tram complaining that she couldn't even talk about immigration in her own country.
Still, I was indignant about the incident until I saw the backlash on Twitter. Piers Morgan was calling for the woman to be deported, some asked for her to be locked up, while others said her child should be taken away. And those are only the printable responses.
I hate to write an article defending such a woman but I think calling for her to be arrested and then prosecuted is over the top. I don't think such behaviour is acceptable or have a problem with condemning it. My issue is that calling for the law to get involved is about the worst way to deal with such incidents. And there are several reasons for this.
First, the law has little impact. The Race Relations Act made it illegal for organisations to discriminate but you can count the number of successful prosecutions on your fingers. It works much better in tightly defined instances of outright discrimination rather than hate speech.
What actually changed attitudes against racism was a shift in popular culture pushed by brave people. The people who joined together in solidarity against skinheads (at Cable Street in the 30s and Southall in the 80s) changed attitudes. Rock Against Racism shifted popular attitudes. Love Music Hate Racism changed attitudes. The Anti-Nazi League did. But trying to push for better social attitudes through the law is a futile task. Popular condemnation and viral piss-takes work far better instead.
Second, you may argue she can already be prosecuted under the Public Order Act or a "breach of the peace" but the law is currently an overbearing ass. It allows the police to make an arrest if someone feels "insulted". The same laws allow them to detain political activists and make arbitrary arrests.
In short, the very law that some people are cheering here can easily be used against them. Do you really want to give police the willingness to arrest people simply for having an argument?
Third, laws that criminalise hate speech almost always backfire on minorities themselves. A few years ago British Muslim organisations campaigned vigorously for a law against religious hatred, hoping it would stop the BNP from using them as electoral fodder. Labour passed the law but it did little to stop the BNP. Instead, most of the people prosecuted under the law were – you guessed it – Muslims.
There are other examples too. When Sikh playwright Gurpreet Bhatti was criticised by Sikh activists for her play Behzti in Birmingham in 2005, one Sikh group said they were planning to get her charged with racial hatred against Sikhs.
I have no problems with laws against outright discrimination. But when crafted against inciting hatred or "breaching the peace" – they almost always work against minorities and other vulnerable people rather than for them.
And let's be honest, the woman was just sitting there with a child on her lap. She offended people but posed no threat and didn't harm anyone (the person behind her had to be calmed down or it could have turned a lot uglier). It isn't the same as a group of drunken blokes swearing in a train carriage and to criminalise simply being offensive or swearing in public would have half of Britain in jail.
My fourth argument is simply this: I would rather a world where such incidents didn't exists but the world will never be perfect. I would much prefer such racism to be open and visible because there are still far too many Westminster commentators who think racism is a thing of the past.
There are still far too many reporters at tabloids who think their biased reporting doesn't have an impact. It does, and this woman is a product of the opinions of the rightwing press.
You may ask how I would have responded if I was there. Like the other woman, I would say what I've said for years – I'm English whether racists likes it or not. Then I'd go back to pretending to playing games on my phone like most people in that carriage.
Discuss.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2011/11/29 13:13:27
I don't know enough of UK laws to start this. I'm going to wait and see how this unfold
but we have some of those idiots to
This is geared towards fearing people
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2011/11/29 13:57:33
Proud Member of the Infidels of OIF/OEF
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Once you pull the pin, Mr. Grenade is no longer your friend
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Appalling. You can have freedom of speech as long as you agree with the trendy lefty people.
You see it all the time, disagree with a Daily Mirror reader even slightly and they label you a Nazi. Think we should curb immigration? Oh ok then, you worship Hitler.
Quite clearly the woman is an absolute idiot, and probably exists on wellfare herself which makes her comments all the more laughable, but there are millions of idiots! Have you walked around a sink estate?! They ALL think and talk like her! Too many kids that eat nothing but noodle doodles, too many cans of special brew, too many fags. Are we going to lock them all up?
I don't have the answer.. her language in front of her son IS disgusting, and I don't think you should be able to be that rude in front of so many people in so small a space. But couldn't they have just threw her off the train? I doubt it warrants taking her kid off her. She probably just wants a bit of a talking to by the coppers.
At the end of the day, your freedom of speech doesn't need protecting if everyone agrees with you.
If you recall, I was fully behind ISLAM4UK marching through Wooton Bassett because I think that freedom of speech is sacred. So sacred that I will stick up for people that I disagree with on pretty much everything. Unless you are actually promoting violence, then they should be allowed to say whatever they like, and as a result, moronic white trash people should also have the same courtesy. If they can burn poppies, then chav's should be allowed to say they hate everyone.
And don't even start me on Piers Morgan...
Automatically Appended Next Post: Lol. Some of the comments on the story are funny.
"Where should we send her back to Piers? Weatherspoons?"
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2011/11/29 13:43:05
We are arming Syrian rebels who support ISIS, who is fighting Iran, who is fighting Iraq who we also support against ISIS, while fighting Kurds who we support while they are fighting Syrian rebels.
Just throwing her off the train would have been a better solution... probably what would have happened here, because the companies don't like hate speech on their premises...
The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
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My blog
mattyrm wrote: Appalling. You can have freedom of speech as long as you agree with the trendy lefty people.
You have free speech, you don't have the right to shout at people calling them f-ing this and f-ing that, go home to "N***er-agua" as she chose to put it. Sorry but I have the censor the word because Dakka makes me even though I'm trying to simply report on it, not use it to offend.
Freedom of speech does not extend to allowing a lengthy tirade of racist abuse.
I'm guessing she was drunk or on drugs. She's lucky someone didn't hit her, I think the fact she was holding a kid saved her. The Youtube comments are just depressing.
fair play to her, she is just speaking the truth, am not english am irish and this country is just the same. if they sent all the blacks and the polish c--ts home we wouldnt be in recession, we would be able to work in our own countries.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2011/11/29 13:52:39
The poor man really has a stake in the country. The rich man hasn't; he can go away to New Guinea in a yacht. The poor have sometimes objected to being governed badly; the rich have always objected to being governed at all
We love our superheroes because they refuse to give up on us. We can analyze them out of existence, kill them, ban them, mock them, and still they return, patiently reminding us of who we are and what we wish we could be.
"the play's the thing wherein I'll catch the conscience of the king,
Don't be to hard on her...she might have had a bad day
Proud Member of the Infidels of OIF/OEF
No longer defending the US Military or US Gov't. Just going to ""**feed into your fears**"" with Duffel Blog Did not fight my way up on top the food chain to become a Vegan...
Warning: Stupid Allergy
Once you pull the pin, Mr. Grenade is no longer your friend
DE 6700
Harlequin 2500
RIP Muhammad Ali.
Jihadin, Scorched Earth 791. Leader of the Pork Eating Crusader. Alpha
Piers Morgan was calling for the woman to be deported
Okay...
some asked for her to be locked up
Alright...
while others said her child should be taken away.
...Come again?
Mandorallen turned back toward the insolently sneering baron. 'My Lord,' The great knight said distantly, 'I find thy face apelike and thy form misshapen. Thy beard, moreover, is an offence against decency, resembling more closely the scabrous fur which doth decorate the hinder portion of a mongrel dog than a proper adornment for a human face. Is it possibly that thy mother, seized by some wild lechery, did dally at some time past with a randy goat?' - Mimbrate Knight Protector Mandorallen.
Excerpt from "Seeress of Kell", Book Five of The Malloreon series by David Eddings.
"You need not fear us, unless you are a dark heart, a vile one who preys on the innocent; I promise, you can’t hide forever in the empty darkness, for we will hunt you down like the animals you are, and pull you into the very bowels of hell." Iron - Within Temptation
It takes a lot to before social services take children into care, especially from deprived backgrounds where people like this woman are common. The language won't get her into trouble with social services, but if she's regularly loaded on drink and drugs that might go against her. But I guess nothing of this nature will happen.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2011/11/29 15:23:40
Piers Morgan was calling for the woman to be deported
Okay...
some asked for her to be locked up
Alright...
while others said her child should be taken away.
...Come again?
Mate, are you okay and alright with points one and two? She's from England! Where can we deport her to? Back to the off licence?
We are arming Syrian rebels who support ISIS, who is fighting Iran, who is fighting Iraq who we also support against ISIS, while fighting Kurds who we support while they are fighting Syrian rebels.
@reds8n John Terry is innocent until proven guilty
The worst thing about this is not the racism (which is bad) but the fact that the situation was not allowed to be settled 'in house.' Other passengers criticised her and she was made to look an idiot. It should have been left at that, instead everybody seems to be jumping on the bandwagon. People are more than capable of sorting things out amongst themselves.
"Our crops will wither, our children will die piteous
deaths and the sun will be swept from the sky. But is it true?" - Tom Kirby, CEO, Games Workshop Ltd
Piers Morgan was calling for the woman to be deported
Okay...
some asked for her to be locked up
Alright...
while others said her child should be taken away.
...Come again?
Mate, are you okay and alright with points one and two? She's from England! Where can we deport her to? Back to the off licence?
I'm not okay with them, they're just some of the more common reactions (however drastically uninformed). Demanding her child be taken away is new to me
Mandorallen turned back toward the insolently sneering baron. 'My Lord,' The great knight said distantly, 'I find thy face apelike and thy form misshapen. Thy beard, moreover, is an offence against decency, resembling more closely the scabrous fur which doth decorate the hinder portion of a mongrel dog than a proper adornment for a human face. Is it possibly that thy mother, seized by some wild lechery, did dally at some time past with a randy goat?' - Mimbrate Knight Protector Mandorallen.
Excerpt from "Seeress of Kell", Book Five of The Malloreon series by David Eddings.
"You need not fear us, unless you are a dark heart, a vile one who preys on the innocent; I promise, you can’t hide forever in the empty darkness, for we will hunt you down like the animals you are, and pull you into the very bowels of hell." Iron - Within Temptation
Hope the kid doesn't include names from the Nazi party WWII...like a New Jersey couple we have here that hit the new recently
Proud Member of the Infidels of OIF/OEF
No longer defending the US Military or US Gov't. Just going to ""**feed into your fears**"" with Duffel Blog Did not fight my way up on top the food chain to become a Vegan...
Warning: Stupid Allergy
Once you pull the pin, Mr. Grenade is no longer your friend
DE 6700
Harlequin 2500
RIP Muhammad Ali.
Jihadin, Scorched Earth 791. Leader of the Pork Eating Crusader. Alpha
Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:@reds8n John Terry is innocent until proven guilty
The worst thing about this is not the racism (which is bad) but the fact that the situation was not allowed to be settled 'in house.' Other passengers criticised her and she was made to look an idiot. It should have been left at that, instead everybody seems to be jumping on the bandwagon. People are more than capable of sorting things out amongst themselves.
Have you seen the clip of john terry you can see him mouth the words N****** plain as day.
Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:@reds8n John Terry is innocent until proven guilty
The worst thing about this is not the racism (which is bad) but the fact that the situation was not allowed to be settled 'in house.' Other passengers criticised her and she was made to look an idiot. It should have been left at that, instead everybody seems to be jumping on the bandwagon. People are more than capable of sorting things out amongst themselves.
That is the 24 hour news media and the Internet at work.
Honestly, I think it's being blown out of proportion. If everyone would have just ignored her then it would have been just another hate filled person (or she was having a bad day, no way to tell). Sadly, because people are ever so sensitive she's become this great evil entity.
If you think her racism is bad, obviously you've never been to the southern united states.
Do I think the behavior is appropriate in front of a child? No. That doesn't mean this had to turn into a hate bandwagon that people are just loving to get vocal about.
So much hate, everywhere you look.
“Sometimes I can hear my bones straining under the weight of all the lives I'm not living.”
I'm just going to say that I genuinely couldn't finish watching that video. To behave like that and use that sort of language, in front of children, was unacceptable! She is entitled to her opinion, but that was neither the time nor the place to express it. It was crass and ignorant in the extreme.
"You ain't British, you black"
...erm. Was under the impression there were people who were in fact both British and black, but hey.
I can't agree with her position as a racist but when she started her rant she made ONE good point. "None of you are fething English" I would have fething lost my gak if say a Scot, Irish, Cornish,or Welshman was present just to be a dick when she switched from English to British in her tirade.
EDIT: Especially a violently red Ginger
To a certain degree though being the only British person on a tram, in Britain...does seem to send a message that something are not quite right.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2011/11/29 17:47:03
Avatar 720 wrote: You see, to Auston, everyone is a Death Star; there's only one way you can take it and that's through a small gap at the back.
Powder Burns wrote:what they need to make is a fullsize leatherman, like 14" long folded, with a bone saw, notches for bowstring, signaling flare, electrical hand crank generator, bolt cutters..
Breach of the peace?
Spreading racial hatred?
She probably shouldn't have been arrested (IMO she shouldn't have)
What I'm confused about is where this kind of racism comes from... Modern Britain has been built by dozens of different nationalities, if anything we have a lot to thank everyone for.
As it is I'm not 'English' according to her... not sure how I feel about that...
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Seal up your lips and give no words but mum.
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Watch for Gerry.
Powder Burns wrote:what they need to make is a fullsize leatherman, like 14" long folded, with a bone saw, notches for bowstring, signaling flare, electrical hand crank generator, bolt cutters..
purplefood wrote:
As it is I'm not 'English' according to her... not sure how I feel about that...
If you identify yourself as English, probably pissed off.
Very much so actually...
Dakka Bingo! By Ouze "You are the best at flying things"-Kanluwen
"Further proof that Purple is a fething brilliant super villain " -KingCracker
"Purp.. Im pretty sure I have a gun than can reach you...."-Nicorex
"That's not really an apocalypse. That's just Europe."-Grakmar
"almost as good as winning free cake at the tea drinking contest for an Englishman." -Reds8n
Seal up your lips and give no words but mum.
Equip, Reload. Do violence.
Watch for Gerry.
I think that there is also an element of "everyone is going this way, I'm going that way to be different" with it too though.
The thing with something like this is that in todays world if this goes on youtube etc, of course its going to go viral, and lots of people are going to be angry with that sort of behaviour.
I also find it annoying that when I see that kind of thing and it offends me and I say so that I get hit with labels such as "bandwagoning" and "self-righteous". Tell me why I shouldn't be angry about someone behaving in such an unacceptable manner?
I'm not bandwagoning or being self-righteous, the fact of the matter is that I find someone behaving in that manner towards another human being disgusting and offensive to the morals and standards I was raised to believe in.
Castiel wrote:I think that there is also an element of "everyone is going this way, I'm going that way to be different" with it too though.
The thing with something like this is that in todays world if this goes on youtube etc, of course its going to go viral, and lots of people are going to be angry with that sort of behaviour.
I also find it annoying that when I see that kind of thing and it offends me and I say so that I get hit with labels such as "bandwagoning" and "self-righteous". Tell me why I shouldn't be angry about someone behaving in such an unacceptable manner?
I'm not bandwagoning or being self-righteous, the fact of the matter is that I find someone behaving in that manner towards another human being disgusting and offensive to the morals and standards I was raised to believe in.
So do I, however it won't do any good to comment the video on You Tube.
1700pt 
