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No not the alpha legion...

My wife is a Christian. I'm probably agnostic. I think Christianity is nice but I cannot believe it. However I do participate in church and stuff. Im thinking of trying an alpha course but am a bit hesitant as I'm afraid that if I reject it I will fall into dispair again (like when I lost my faith initally several years ago). I've also aquired some seminars by the main uk organiser (called gumbel) and I find his arguments flawed and weak. EG (and this isn't verbatim) 'we have x amount more of the bible than we do of other historical documents that say hannibal did cross the alps.' Hannibal crossed the alps ergo the bible is true. (I have 10 billion copies of lord of the rings therefore hobbits exist?)

The other issue is that if I question things I might 'ruin' it for other people. I don't know how much feedback, questioning or to-and-fro-ing there is.

Just wondering if anyone else has done this sort of thing?

I'm really not sure how I can help you with this.

If you don't believe in christianity, why go to church?

I doubt you will "ruin" anything for anyone. If you get people to start questioning their faith, maybe you're helping them find their true calling. Otherwise they will not question their faith and have answers for you.

If you have already made up your mind why would you go to this?

It seems like it would be futile for you to be there and for the course leaders(?) to try and talk to you.

Alternatively; you could try it once and if you don't like it, don't go back.

Sounds silly but I like the notion of Christianity. I think I believe in God/a creator* But not chrsitianity/jesus/redemption element. Which basically leaves me up gak creek without a paddle.

I'm on the fence. I'm afraid to leave the fence. I do expect that doing this will push me away.

Also church is nice. It's a good way to be sociable and do good things in the community. But if I cause ructions/don't believe then I'm a bit buggered and definatly will have to stop going. And I'm scared.

*not a 7 day evolutionist, also possible that multiple gods worked to make the universe or that we're all inside a pink unicorn's dream Mhhhnbs!

Find a nice Rabbi to talk to.

It's less molesty.

I'm a tad confused.

What are you scared of?

Phototoxin wrote:Sounds silly but I like the notion of Christianity. I think I believe in God/a creator* But not chrsitianity/jesus/redemption element. Which basically leaves me up gak creek without a paddle.

I'm on the fence. I'm afraid to leave the fence. I do expect that doing this will push me away.

Also church is nice. It's a good way to be sociable and do good things in the community. But if I cause ructions/don't believe then I'm a bit buggered and definatly will have to stop going. And I'm scared.

*not a 7 day evolutionist, also possible that multiple gods worked to make the universe or that we're all inside a pink unicorn's dream Mhhhnbs!

Gotcha. Helping the community is a good thing. Well, you could go to church, and just sorta be the silent type. Get your fullfilment every sunday, then spend every other day the way you want to. I don't think anyone's going to have an answer for you here, religion is something you sorta have to sort out for yourself.

I'm scared that my happy fantasy bubble is going to shatter and I will be left with a spiritual void. Kinda like I jump of the fence but then fall into a hole. The fencepost in my bum is annoying but not as bad as being stuck in a hole*

I guess religion is kinda personal. I'd go (back) to Catholicism if it wasn't full of make-y up stuff. (we're infallible because the book we complied says we are?) Also I don't get the point of Jesus. I mean in Ezekiel it says 'the sins of the father are passed to the son' and later in the bible it says 'the son is not punished for the iniquites of the father' (or something similar). But yet if any abrahamic religion is to be belived we're all 'falled' because of rib woman and the talking snake.

It's at that point that I start thinking 'occult' (lillith, sophia, zeus) and that's just a dark spiral. Paganism isn't really an option for me as it seems to lack authenticity/authority. If I just took a random D&D deity it would have as much clout. (yay cyric!)

Also for Judaism, I'd rather not be snipped, I'm not of Jewish descent, I'd never be able to learn Hebrew and I think that a Rabbi could easily discourage me! (as they are supposed to do)

Islam is nice on paper, but I find that like judaism it's highly ethically linked and then there's the radicalization element.

Maybe I should just be a quaker. Quiet. Nice. Peaceful.

*anal humour not intentiotional or a snipe at catholics.

Phototoxin wrote:I'm scared that my happy fantasy bubble is going to shatter and I will be left with a spiritual void. Kinda like I jump of the fence but then fall into a hole. The fencepost in my bum is annoying but not as bad as being stuck in a hole*

I guess religion is kinda personal. I'd go (back) to Catholicism if it wasn't full of make-y up stuff. (we're infallible because the book we complied says we are?) Also I don't get the point of Jesus. I mean in Ezekiel it says 'the sins of the father are passed to the son' and later in the bible it says 'the son is not punished for the iniquites of the father' (or something similar). But yet if any abrahamic religion is to be belived we're all 'falled' because of rib woman and the talking snake.

It's at that point that I start thinking 'occult' (lillith, sophia, zeus) and that's just a dark spiral. Paganism isn't really an option for me as it seems to lack authenticity/authority. If I just took a random D&D deity it would have as much clout. (yay cyric!)

Also for Judaism, I'd rather not be snipped, I'm not of Jewish descent, I'd never be able to learn Hebrew and I think that a Rabbi could easily discourage me! (as they are supposed to do)

Islam is nice on paper, but I find that like judaism it's highly ethically linked and then there's the radicalization element.

Maybe I should just be a quaker. Quiet. Nice. Peaceful.

*anal humour not intentiotional or a snipe at catholics.

Drink mead, get into fights, and go norse. My religion of choice.

Chowderhead wrote:Find a nice Rabbi to talk to.

It's less molesty.

You are too jewish for your own good...

I like my approach to relgion....which one of written religion is the right one? The sky makes a nice religous type of "ceiling" Then religion is not a major factor in my life.

purplefood wrote:

Chowderhead wrote:Find a nice Rabbi to talk to.

It's less molesty.

You are too jewish for your own good...

Naw. If I was too Jewish I would have posted that with a Yamika.

purplefood wrote:

Chowderhead wrote:Find a nice Rabbi to talk to.

It's less molesty.

You are too jewish for your own good...

?מה זה

Try Atheisim.
Be virtuous because you want to, not because you're afraid of the judgement of a god.

Phototoxin wrote:I'm scared that my happy fantasy bubble is going to shatter and I will be left with a spiritual void. Kinda like I jump of the fence but then fall into a hole. The fencepost in my bum is annoying but not as bad as being stuck in a hole*

I guess religion is kinda personal. I'd go (back) to Catholicism if it wasn't full of make-y up stuff. (we're infallible because the book we complied says we are?) Also I don't get the point of Jesus. I mean in Ezekiel it says 'the sins of the father are passed to the son' and later in the bible it says 'the son is not punished for the iniquites of the father' (or something similar). But yet if any abrahamic religion is to be belived we're all 'falled' because of rib woman and the talking snake.

It's at that point that I start thinking 'occult' (lillith, sophia, zeus) and that's just a dark spiral. Paganism isn't really an option for me as it seems to lack authenticity/authority. If I just took a random D&D deity it would have as much clout. (yay cyric!)

Also for Judaism, I'd rather not be snipped, I'm not of Jewish descent, I'd never be able to learn Hebrew and I think that a Rabbi could easily discourage me! (as they are supposed to do)

Islam is nice on paper, but I find that like judaism it's highly ethically linked and then there's the radicalization element.

Maybe I should just be a quaker. Quiet. Nice. Peaceful.

*anal humour not intentiotional or a snipe at catholics.

Is it April 1st already?

AustonT wrote:

purplefood wrote:

Chowderhead wrote:Find a nice Rabbi to talk to.

It's less molesty.

You are too jewish for your own good...

?מה זה

An inside joke is what it is...

Personally I don't worry much about why the universe exists or what will happen when I die

For now I am here, I work hard so that tommorow I will still be.

And with a plasma TV

Maybe give the Church of England a try?

Hmm.... I'm not exactly a student of theology or anything, nor do I play one on TV, so take my thoughts with a grain of salt. You're questioning Christianity (and religion in general, it seems), but you have a desire to remain in the religious fold. It seems to me then that what might (and I place emphasis on "might") be best for you is to find others like yourself who question religion but who have at least a passing desire in retaining a belief in religion. Such a group might be more useful for discussing your doubts and ideas than a group that might have a more active interest in proselytizing or converting you. Finding such a group of people might be difficult, but I imagine it would be worthwhile.

As far as the more seemingly far-fetched concepts of Christianity (Eden, the creation account, etc.) it might be more fruitful to consider them as allegorical than accounts of completely factual or semi-factual events. It seems to me that reading the Bible in the way one might read Cornelius Agrippa or another occult writer, rather than as one might read a textbook, leads to a much more useful interpretation. Again, this is just how I do things in my own little brand of Christianity, so take it for what you will.

Scientology

There is nothing wrong with strident Agnosticism.

Here's how it works. Say some nice meaning person approaches you to share the good news, You listen politely as they give their rap.

Then you say the following:
"I don't know, and you don't know either. So please kindly shut the feth up."

Then you walk away. Strident Agnosticism. You really don;t want to see the Militant form of Agnosticism.

I think religion is one of those things that discussion with internet people really won't help. Personally, it sounds to me like you're trying to how to get hypnotized overnight into just being a Christian, as if by magic. It doesn't really work that way. I'm a terrible person to really provide advice, as I have no faith whatsoever anymore. I doubt God exists, but if he were to, I think he's not the kind and benevolent one the Christians believe in.

For what you can do to force faith upon yourself? There's not much. You'll find it somewhere eventually if you're going to.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Easy E wrote:There is nothing wrong with strident Agnosticism.

Here's how it works. Say some nice meaning person approaches you to share the good news, You listen politely as they give their rap.

Then you say the following:
"I don't know, and you don't know either. So please kindly shut the feth up."

Then you walk away. Strident Agnosticism. You really don;t want to see the Militant form of Agnosticism.

Nah, that's rude. I like to tell them that I appreciate their story, and then I regale them with the Virtues of Pastafarianism/Bacchus/Random deity of my choice.

I'm going to update my Facebook profile as Religious Beliefs: Militant Agnosticism.

I love it, sir!

Easy E wrote:There is nothing wrong with strident Agnosticism.

Here's how it works. Say some nice meaning person approaches you to share the good news, You listen politely as they give their rap.

Then you say the following:
"I don't know, and you don't know either. So please kindly shut the feth up."

Then you walk away. Strident Agnosticism. You really don;t want to see the Militant form of Agnosticism.

Oh, I don't know. Watching someone bomb buildings while screaming "I don't know why I'm doing this!" could be pretty entertaining, in a sick sort of way.

Join the Church of England and follow all the "nice" activities such as neighbourliness and charity while quietly doubting the creed.

I don't think God cares if you believe in him providing you are good to other people.

That's kinda where I'm at Killkrazy. I think charity and nice stuff is good and wholesome irrespective of creed. And it seems that churches are better equipped to do it than secular organisations. (even if their motives might be ulterior)

Another major issue is that I think protestanism is highly flawed in its theory (not always in it's pracatice) and that I cannot accept all of Catholicsm. So I've sort of rule out most main forms of Christianity.

The way I see it, theres nothing wrong with questioning faith. People that have it wont be discouraged by your questions. And this is the modern age, we have learned, and know so much more then even 50 years ago, that really DO clash with how the Bible says things are. I personally think, the Bible has good stories in it, that are supposed to build faith, but I personally believe that the majority of it, is fiction. I still believe in a higher power, call it God, or whatever, that doesnt matter to me, but I think everything in the Universe is just far to complex to be happenstance.

So go ahead and question, like I said, the ones the really HAVE faith, wont be shaken by them. Only the ones that have fake faith will, and who knows, maybe making them question their beliefs will actually help them personally.

Most organised religions seem corrupt to me, like many large organisations. And they are full of very vocal people always trying to get others to follow their lead on conservative values. Instead of just letting people enjoy god in their own way. The nicest and most reasonable people believing in god are usually those who are independent or a particular church or are attend a more free and liberal place of worship.

I haven't attended an Alpha course, but the inducements and the sorts of attempts to 'encourage' me at university were simply dishonest. Oh no, they didn't want to 'convert' me at all. If I wanted to be a christian I wouldn't be their kind, not after knowing some of those involved. Trying to suck people in with offers of social events and free meals so you can have a 2 hour brainwashing session.

Phototoxin wrote:That's kinda where I'm at Killkrazy. I think charity and nice stuff is good and wholesome irrespective of creed. And it seems that churches are better equipped to do it than secular organisations. (even if their motives might be ulterior)

Secularists tend not to be particularly organised, though you do get clubs and groups giving to charity irrespective of religion. But where you have a group that organises on the basis of being secular, say an atheist organisation, it has been found to be fairly difficult to donate money oddly enough as happened with the proceeds of the Atheist's Christmas book which was largely humorous. The reason apparently being that some charities feel that to openly accept money from an atheist group would upset their religious donors, which seems pretty sad if they are right. In the end the Terrance Higgins Trust took the money.

If you like Christianity but cannot believe in Jesus as being the son of God then you aren't a Christian. Most religions accept the fact that there was a guy named Jesus, but some don't accept him as the son of God and some accept him as a prophet instead.

One thing to realize about the bible is that in Catholicism there are a lot more books and stories in the Bible than in other bibles. It is not uncommon for a Catholic mass to include Old Testament and then follow it up with a correlating or related New Testament. One example would be reading the story of Sodom and Gomorrah and then reading the part in the New testament where Jesus is asked by his disciples to have God burn down a city that denied them but said no.

The Bible has allegorical tales and some literal tales, here's a hint, the part about Jesus being crucified would count as a literal story.

You would also have to look at the fact that the Bible itself was not written in one night or one year, its a large collection that took decades to even make a rough draft. There's a part that states that a woman should have no part in the Church's duties but today we have women who sometimes give eucharist so that means the Church is contradictory. Unless you look at the context, back in the day one of the only professions a woman held was holding the members of males, yes prostitution. They did not want a prostitute telling them how the Church should be run so women in general had no say, but they could still worship and so on and on.

Ezekial said a lot of things, but the thing with Ezekial is that it was a man writing what he thinks God would want him to write. Again, Old Testament vs New Testament.

As far as there being an All-Good or All-Loving God, did you not see what he did to Sodom and Gomorrah? I mean seriously the Church should not say that he is omnibenevolent because it makes people think that God only does good things. He doesn't do good things but he does do bad things to bad people or people that he thinks are bad. If you want to say that that means there would be no suffering, did you not read or hear about the story of Job?


All in all it comes down to this, if you're Agnostic because you truly don't know then there is nothing wrong with that because in all honesty nobody truly knows. If you like Christianity but cannot accept Jesus as the son of God then you're removing one of the core concepts that separate Christianity from other faiths.

If you happen to believe that there is more than one god then that's alright because its very possible. Maybe the Romans and Greeks had it right or maybe their gods where just manifestations of the emotional states of a single god.

If you do want to go to a Christian church then "shop around". Not every priest or rabbi is the same and some of them may be more appealing to you as a person, my priest believes in evolution and its a shame that he retired, and yes he did retire the guy was 65 years old. He was also the one who told me that killing in and of itself is not always a sin and that when Jesus said "turn the other cheek" he meant it for verbal, non-fatal, non-wounding attacks. He then said that if somebody pulls a gun on you that you should probably turn the other cheek but only because you should be running away, but if you pulled your own and shot and killed him then you are not at fault because you did something to protect yourself. The explanation was that God knew there would be evil in the world and knew that the good would have to defend themselves against evil, murder is still out of the question though.

I had a priest that was incredibly good at relating concepts to the real world and got pissed whenever a phone went off during mass so I enjoyed going to church and for me it answered some questions. If you do decide to go back to a church then find the one that's right for you because that does make a huge difference.

And of course remember that no matter your religious view you're not wrong, because nobody can prove either side right.

halonachos wrote:If you like Christianity but cannot believe in Jesus as being the son of God then you aren't a Christian. Most religions accept the fact that there was a guy named Jesus, but some don't accept him as the son of God and some accept him as a prophet instead.

See, I see the logic there, I too like the Church of England. Im more than happy to go to a Christening, Ill go to the village cricket match, ill even go to Church for a service if my grannie really wants to go (She doesn't) but the point is, that yes, you really cant claim to be a Christian if you actually disbelieve that Jesus was the son of God (It seems very bloody unlikely) but how come nobody see's my logic when I point this out then?

If I am in the middle of one of my jovial good natured family friendly rants about Islam, possibly at a child's birthday party or an office party, and someone says "Oh yes but my friend Ikbal is a Muslim and he is lovely, he goes to the football and his wife dresses like me and he drinks and he smokes"

How on earth is that guy a Muslim?

mattyrm wrote: If I am in the middle of one of my jovial good natured family friendly rants about Islam, possibly at a child's birthday party

I would pay to see this.

mattyrm wrote: How on earth is that guy a Muslim?

The same way a christian is a Christian. If you said the guy didn't believe that Mohammed was a prophet of Allah then you would have an argument that is more in line with not believing that Jesus was the son of god. There are Christian groups that don't drink alcohol either but that doesn't keep people from thinking a Christian who has a beer is suddenly no longer a Christian. It isn't as simple as "he drinks, he can't be muslim'.