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Made in us
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OK, fair point!

I hope we get that version...

   
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Norristown, PA

I still enjoy watching the show, but it feels like the whole thing has turned into

1. Drag it out forever because paycheck
2. Insert twist for interweb gossips
3. ?????
4. Profit!

 
   
Made in us
Pragmatic Primus Commanding Cult Forces






Southeastern PA, USA

 yakface wrote:
<snip a whole bunch of stuff>


Yeah, I dunno. Really not sure what to say about a lot of stuff. It almost feels like they're making it up from episode to episode, which of course is impossible.

And finally, I absolutely cannot stand the self importance that this show keeps trying to heap upon itself with things like the montage of character faces set to music, or the repeated heroic speeches that have been uttered over and over again this season.


The closeups feel like a directorial flourish to add some window dressing to what's otherwise been a disappointing season on multiple levels.

Regarding Carl, I can only assume that the story will be fairly different from here on out. He's most probably the most important character in the next arc in the comics. The showrunners may have felt that the actor wasn't strong enough to carry that load, and they could even be right about that. Still, my hopes of the show improving in the next arc have just taken a hit.

 Necros wrote:
I still enjoy watching the show, but it feels like the whole thing has turned into

1. Drag it out forever because paycheck
2. Insert twist for interweb gossips
3. ?????
4. Profit!


It's been very manipulative and formulaic for a couple seasons now, yeah. I'm going to guess that when the show hit a certain ratings level, the expectations and demands changed for the showrunners. To be fair, it would be daunting to have to keep some fairly disparate audiences (those in it for the characters or *certain* characters, those in it for zombie gore, those in it for tactical zombie battles, etc.) fully engaged in perpetuity. And now they're pulling out every TV cliche and formula that they can to try to maintain ratings. They even introduced *another* baby, fer crissakes.

Could A Very Special Episode of The Walking Dead be in our future? Maybe Daryl on a motorcycle jumping over 100 zombies? I don't think I'm even completely kidding about the last one.

Of course, what's actually happened is that audiences are leaving and not staying, as they see TWD becoming a strangely conventional show that feels less like 'prestige television' all the time. It's a shame.

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Killing Carl off was a mistake. He's infinitely more interesting, and has more potential for character growth, than any baby.
   
Made in us
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Home Base: Prosper, TX (Dallas)

Outside of Carol and Maggie Carl was the last person I saw regularly developing and growing. It's frustrating they killed him off. More so because unlike so many other characters that I liked that died (Abraham, Shane, Glenn, Beth, Sasha) his story feels incomplete.

I've been fairly supportive of the show this season even though it's the first season we haven't watched on Sunday night or Monday morning but even I got annoyed at the road ambush of the hilltop and the non-explanation of how Jerry was caught from the car that got smashed but not Rick or Carol both of whom on foot made it back to their settlements while gak was going down.

Honestly I'm afraid for Fear now which was going in an excellent direction after a slow season one and half second season.

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 Hulksmash wrote:
Outside of Carol and Maggie Carl was the last person I saw regularly developing and growing. It's frustrating they killed him off. More so because unlike so many other characters that I liked that died (Abraham, Shane, Glenn, Beth, Sasha) his story feels incomplete.


It's a curious decision. Especially if you know comes next. I'm just gonna assume that there's another factor/reason at work here involving the writers and actor.

I've been fairly supportive of the show this season even though it's the first season we haven't watched on Sunday night or Monday morning but even I got annoyed at the road ambush of the hilltop and the non-explanation of how Jerry was caught from the car that got smashed but not Rick or Carol both of whom on foot made it back to their settlements while gak was going down.

Honestly I'm afraid for Fear now which was going in an excellent direction after a slow season one and half second season.


I believe it's a different set of showrunners, so no worries. And yeah, Fear has found its footing and is the more interesting show IMO. I think the simple difference right now is that the writers on Fear are telling their story and serving their characters, whereas on TWD those now seem secondary to moments and speeches and shockers. (Oh my.)

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Killing of carl is a huge mistake. The problem the show really has for me is there isn't any of the original characters left that I care about. Hell how many people from season one are left at this point, 3?
It feels like his death is nothing but an attempt at shock value. If this season ends with negan caving ricks head in with lucille i doubt think I'd care anymore.

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 gorgon wrote:


I believe it's a different set of showrunners, so no worries. And yeah, Fear has found its footing and is the more interesting show IMO. I think the simple difference right now is that the writers on Fear are telling their story and serving their characters, whereas on TWD those now seem secondary to moments and speeches and shockers. (Oh my.)


Actually Gimple is taking over FTWD too which is why I'm getting concerned. Though maybe it'll go back to season 4.5-6 since it won't have the expectations that TWD has. We'll see I suppose.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Tamereth wrote:
Killing of carl is a huge mistake. The problem the show really has for me is there isn't any of the original characters left that I care about. Hell how many people from season one are left at this point, 3?
It feels like his death is nothing but an attempt at shock value. If this season ends with negan caving ricks head in with lucille i doubt think I'd care anymore.


Rick, Morgan, Carol and Daryl from season 1. Maggie from season 2. And I don't think we have anyone else from earlier than 4 at this point actually.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/12/12 20:18:26


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 Hulksmash wrote:
 gorgon wrote:


I believe it's a different set of showrunners, so no worries. And yeah, Fear has found its footing and is the more interesting show IMO. I think the simple difference right now is that the writers on Fear are telling their story and serving their characters, whereas on TWD those now seem secondary to moments and speeches and shockers. (Oh my.)


Actually Gimple is taking over FTWD too which is why I'm getting concerned. Though maybe it'll go back to season 4.5-6 since it won't have the expectations that TWD has. We'll see I suppose.


WHAT?!? I didn't know that. Oh boy.

Gimple did a good job on TWD early on...but something definitely changed there.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Tamereth wrote:
Killing of carl is a huge mistake. The problem the show really has for me is there isn't any of the original characters left that I care about. Hell how many people from season one are left at this point, 3?
It feels like his death is nothing but an attempt at shock value. If this season ends with negan caving ricks head in with lucille i doubt think I'd care anymore.


Rick, Morgan, Carol and Daryl from season 1. Maggie from season 2. And I don't think we have anyone else from earlier than 4 at this point actually.


Maggie might be my all-around favorite character left at this point. The actress does a good job with her, and it's one of the few TV characters that actually feels like its comics counterpart. Not that it actually matters, but it's familiar and reassuring somehow.


So what's the over-under on number of episodes we'll have to watch glassy-eyed, shaky Rick after the break? Two?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/12/12 21:01:19


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Totally agree with Yak's assessment. Except for Corral, of course. That was just shock value to try to prime a sputtering pump.

The whole trash people episode was astoundingly bad- they just repeated Rick's initial run in with less payoff. So bad.

At this point, I wish they would just ditch the script, have Rick go chainsaw crazy and burn it all down- starting with the trash people (Those giant walls of garbage don't seem like such a great idea now do they? *maniacal laughter*) and ending with a brutal murder of Negan with Lucille (Who's Negan now?).. Everyone starts dressing in the Kingdom armor, but adds a bunch of nails and sawblades. Instead, we will probably get weepy Rick back.

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Glasgow, Scotland

*jumps into thread. Oh Carl's dead apparently. Dah feth?*

Guess time to watch that episode...

I'm confused. What was the point in all that setup with the girl from Alexandria for? I thought she was supposed to be an analogy for Sophia in the comics seeing as they killed her off? Without Carl then what's the point in her?

Spoiler:
As in bang goes the whole Whisperer subplot with the daughter and Carl getting off together as Sophia feels jealous. Oh wait, that was gak. OK, maybe killing the kid was a good idea.


I guess this covers not having to put Carl on stilts or something for the time skip. Though he has already aged those 5 years (or however many the show wants to do. Rick's beard was pretty grey...).


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh, and in case you wondered where the comics are going.

Spoiler:


Spoiler:
Seems like they're following up on saying its coming to an end. Hopefully. Please.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/12/14 04:07:24


 
   
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Southeastern PA, USA

 Wyrmalla wrote:
I'm confused. What was the point in all that setup with the girl from Alexandria for? I thought she was supposed to be an analogy for Sophia in the comics seeing as they killed her off? Without Carl then what's the point in her?

Spoiler:
As in bang goes the whole Whisperer subplot with the daughter and Carl getting off together as Sophia feels jealous. Oh wait, that was gak. OK, maybe killing the kid was a good idea.


Yeah, in the comics so much of what comes next goes through Carl. I suppose they could flip things around and give that material to Enid, but I'm not sure that actress is any better than Chandler Riggs in terms of ability to carry the show. And no one is attached to that character anyway.

Like I said, I had hope that the next phase would see the show improve, just because I think the source material is more character-driven than All Out War. Clearly the creative team has struggled to stage larger-scale action or juggle multiple action storylines while providing clarity as to where the characters are and when. Indeed, their entire structure to this season seems like a very poor decision.

But now I'm a little concerned that characters and storytelling will continue to take a back seat to big speeches and 'TV moments'. Maybe TWD and GoT are intersecting after all.

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Dublin, Ireland

Thought I was drunk watching that last episode and had fallen in/out of scenes.
So many wtf moments?

Rick and Carol escape the ramming ambush but others dont.
Maggies convoy happily sits there waiting to be surrounded?
They are then let go without any real loses to go back to "farming"?
Grenade launchers blow apart entire houses/churches?
Rick makes it back on foot as a one man army?
Ezekiel sets of an explosion and the entire saviours crew run after it. Carol then shows up as another lone warrior.
Negans crew despite randsacking the town earlier never noticed the underground sewer network?
They reintroduce the trash people (again) who promptly do another exit left of screen job.
Oceanside is coming back? What on Earth for?

A genuine lowpoint for me in the entire series. So hard to keep watching at the moment :(



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 Ratius wrote:
Thought I was drunk watching that last episode and had fallen in/out of scenes.
So many wtf moments?
...
Maggies convoy happily sits there waiting to be surrounded?
...


My take was that they thought there were gunmen waiting in the trees ready to shoot anyone who exited their vehicles.

Still stupid though.
   
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Southeastern PA, USA

There's just so much...laziness?...involved with the storytelling now. It's like they can't be bothered to show you the where, when, or why of scenes. I can't believe how far the show has fallen.

On the subject of Carl, I've read some chatter that Chandler Riggs may simply have been a budget cut. They axed him 2 weeks before his 18th birthday...perhaps there was something contractual at work?

And you know...budget trouble is a believable issue based on what I saw this past half-season. Some of the lameness could have its roots in a lack of lira. It's not like it'd be the first time TWD had budget drama.


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I can't remember how the plot went in the comics, but the ending of this episode seems to be taken from the Woodbury novels? The residents escape into the tunnel system beneath the town at least once in those. The way that the tunnels are lit up in the show seems to infer that Siddiq's been converting them into a place to live (as did the characters from the book) and I think Carl says the same.

I think, as yeah damn the acting in that was ...woo. Carl's a pivotal character in the comics, though, yup, I'm fine seeing that actor go.

Spoiler:
I'm assuming we're getting the dead Andrea arc early with Carl. Queue Rick sleeping on his grave. ...Well once they get out of the tunnels. If this is anything like the books expect 2 seasons down there.

Though on that note. I feel like they killed Andrea in the comics due to her death in the show. With Carl dead now in the show I wonder how that'll effect his character. Though post- Whisperers he's not had a major impact on the plot - and well TBH his involvement then was convincing the Whisperer girl to say. With the latest arc involving the government I can see him fading a bit into obscurity/ being a backup character to Maggie at the Hilltop.



Did Tattoo Neck Saviour Woman die in this episode or escape? I kind of lost track of what was happening.

Spoiler:
Seeing as there's a peace with the Saviours coming I wouldn't mind seeing a few of the Saviours surviving to interact with the rest of the communities. I mean they'd still be dicks, but Tattoo Neck - Laura! - , GTA guy and the Kingdom supervisor are fun to watch. It'd be a pity if they died in some stupid manner or another - looking at you Saviour lady who lets herself get eaten by a ressed Saviour during that one gun fitght.


Nobody said "I believe in Rick Grimes" this episode, so I'll take that as a net positive.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2017/12/15 02:07:49


 
   
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Finally brought myself to watch this show, it just takes a lot of effort now especially for the extra long episodes. Don't even feel the need to chime in as yakface and ratius have it covered. I will just add that this was downright the most incoherent episode they've ever aired. Like I don't even know what's going on or where people are. Especially those damn trash people.
It's been so bad I even find myself in agreement with Alpharius most of the time so to even that out I must go record saying I totally disagree with him about the comic. It's still good and I enjoy it.

 
   
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Houston, TX

Yeah, that was a disjointed mess. I think laziness is the key word- there is no attempt to build any kind of coherency in time or location, which doesn't require a big budget, just some planning. Likewise, characters continue to behave fairly incomprehensibly (why are the trash people even here at this point?). And then randomly kill Carl because, well, why not? Doesn't really add anything to anything, and flies in the face of his previous preposterous survival, but at this point it just seems like a "meh". Ratius nailed it- so much WTF?

-James
 
   
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So, we're two weeks out from the show resuming, and it seems we're in for a decent episode to re-open things.

And the spoiler-free review on DoG got me thinking....just what is it that I feel has gone wrong? And I think I can put my finger on it....

When it first started, the show was pretty fearless when it came to character casualties, and largely steered away from Deus Ex survival. But as well as being brave enough to kill off the cast, they were smart enough to make us give a hoot first.

Since then? Well, the 'safe/not/run/safe/not/run' formula aside, I feel that the character deaths are starting to spin into Ensign Redshirt territory - largely ancillary people that they never bothered letting us get to know to the point where their snuffing it has much of an impact.

Yes, there are exceptions (not gonna list, as that's personal taste), but there's too many that've popped up in say, Season 5, Episode 7, disappear until Season 6, Episode 14, only to have a dramatic death.

Perhaps that's partially inevitable given the core cast has remained largely constant for 8 seasons now. But I can't help but feel the 'emotion and filler' stuff could've played out much better if we saw Rick and Michonne take out Redshirts, A, G, and M for a bit of bonding, instead of leaving all their eggs at home.

   
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Part of that is that their rope has been tied to the graphic novel, so they are limited to a degree if they want to keep the same arcs.

But the bigger issue is that the writing has been sloppy for a while. Whipsaw personalities, baffling behavior that seems out of character, huge plot holes and logical inconsistencies all add up. At this point the seem to be relying on some pretty coarse gotcha strategies to try to keep their numbers up, writing be damned.

Really, this show is low on steam and probably needs to just wrap it up. Of course as long as they can squeeze money out of it.....

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Southeastern PA, USA

 jmurph wrote:
Part of that is that their rope has been tied to the graphic novel, so they are limited to a degree if they want to keep the same arcs.

But the bigger issue is that the writing has been sloppy for a while. Whipsaw personalities, baffling behavior that seems out of character, huge plot holes and logical inconsistencies all add up. At this point the seem to be relying on some pretty coarse gotcha strategies to try to keep their numbers up, writing be damned.

Really, this show is low on steam and probably needs to just wrap it up. Of course as long as they can squeeze money out of it.....


See, I had some hope that the show would find its character-driven mojo again in the next arc. TWD -- comic and show -- isn't really about "All Out War". Even in the book, that run wasn't loved by everyone. And it's clear that the show didn't have the budget or chops to pull it off in that medium. The next arc could let the writers settle back into a comfort zone (at least for the larger part of it).

But with Carl's death, I'm not certain if they'll follow the book's path at all now. If not, it's too bad, because I think the next two major groups that are encountered represent interesting (and very different) approaches to civilization and the new world. I guess it could still follow that path, but Carl's death *feels* like it's meant to signify a major departure from the books going forward. Hopefully the trash people aren't representative of the showrunners' best ideas.

I may be done with it very soon. We'll see. I agree with KamikazeCanuck about the comic, though...I still enjoy it.



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Haven't watched in a while, but ultimately the problem with the show is similar to anime. The adapted stuff from the source comic is great, but that only sustains about 7 minutes of an episode. The rest of the content gets padded out with inconsequential side stories and attempts to pass off stalling as dramatic tension.
   
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There may have been some of that going on during the All Out War show arc because of its action focus, but I'd still put more blame at the feet of substandard writing and direction.

The show has never been slavish in its devotion to the source material, even under Gimple. The anime problem is a bigger issue for action-driven stories than character-driven stories, which tend to thrive when given more room to breathe and develop characters and relationships.

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And we're back.

Well, bit of a damp squib to begin the second half with. Though I'm glad there was no 'actually he survives!' when it came to Corarlrrlasrlsl. Again, I'm a wee bit fed up of the damp and gloomy palette they've been using. Makes it difficult to fully appreciate just what is going on.

Caorlrlsgbjklasdfkflls little speech, about his vision for the future does bode well though. Pulling Rick back on track, showing there may yet be a way forward without further bloodshed. Or at least without having to wipe out one or other of the parties.

What I want to see? How many Saviours actually remain? Not a great many attacked Alexandria, and they took fair casualties there. Those that went to The Kingdom apparently wiped out to a man. And there's still a bushel or more held prisoner at Hilltop. Plus all those that snuffed it during Rick's rampage that locked them inside Sanctuary.

Ideally, I'd like to see a form of stalemate force some pow-wow between the factions. Rick has already brought together three, with a fourth (Seaside place) a possibility, and the God Awful Trash People (smell like Trash, talk like People. Trash People. Trash People) a very possible fifth. Surely The Saviours must be facing logistical, if not numerical, inferiority at this time?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/02/28 10:15:33


   
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 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:


Corarlrrlasrlsl



 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:

Caorlrlsgbjklasdfkflls


...what?

Are you typing on a phone or something?

And if it is 'something', can you please stop?

Thanks!

   
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Southeastern PA, USA

Um...think he was mimicking Rick's weird, not-Southern-accented way of pronouncing Carl.

It's probably just me, but I actually think this was a better episode than what we had in the first half of the season. I don't think it was exceptional, and I'm pretty sure it was 20 minutes too long, but it felt a little more like TWD than what we've been getting lately.

I also see what they're doing with Carl's death. And I suppose that one could make the case that it was necessary given show Rick's constantly changing mental status. The problem I have with what they're building to is the *other side* of the eventual climax, and they've shown nothing to make me think that would happen.

Sorry if that's a bit cryptic. Comic spoilers ahead:

Spoiler:
Basically, I don't see how show Negan ever considers Rick's proposal of setting up normalized trade networks, etc. and lets down his guard. I'm also not sure that I see the show Saviors accepting the new world.

I see how they're setting up Carl's death to be the driving force behind Rick letting Negan live and being open to working with the Saviors. I don't think they needed Carl's death to get Rick there, but whatever. But the Negan side...it just seems out of character for show Negan, who is much more of a tyrant goofball and less pragmatic than book Negan ever was.

Then again, maybe it just goes down differently in the show. Maybe Rick beats the gak outta Negan and then tells him what's gonna happen. *shrug*



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He is referring to the ridiculous pronunciation Andrew Lincoln sometimes manages when saying Carl. Got a pretty good one at the end of this episode.

As to this episode:

They finally took some steps to flesh Carl out a bit more and his relationship with Judith. Why did they wait until he was dying to do this? As it was, I felt like the episode was just dragging out the death scene- most turn quickly. Again, I felt like it was just another cynical attempt to manipulate viewers and still sloppy pacing/writing. Heck, it went on so long it almost got funny. Also super weird how many character he was close to don't stop by. And that the Dr. gave him an NSAID. Which would cause him to bleed out faster....

So the Survivors escape by making a perfect line of mowed down zombies to block the other zombies. Why didn't the snipers just plink them off again?

Morgan and Carol get their breaker switches flipped again. Because why not. And somebody pitched them standing in plain view to win a shootout and also Morgan pulls some guy's intestines out and the response was "Hell yeah!". Henry is my new favorite. Dude outninja'ed everybody and scored a crit backstab!

The show did aboid alot of useless annoying characters (trash people, Enid, etc.) and did a decent job focusing. So no doubt that will all be back next week.Alas, poor KORAL, we will miss you.


-James
 
   
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Yeah...I might have facepalmed in real life over the Saviors' breakout, I'm not sure. But no trash people was a godsend. I'd be 100% fine if they just never showed up again, even if that doesn't make sense. FOCUS.

I was also glad that they directed Andrew Lincoln to mostly stay away from his go-to move during big emotional moments -- namely, that glassy/weepy/bulgy/red-eyed, eyes-darting-around thing that he does. I thought it worked much better to not have him in full-on 'broken Rick mode' for 90 minutes but instead have him show more a little more range of emotion, including some almost emotionless shock.

For the remaining episodes in the season, I'm hoping for more character stuff, a relatively quick resolution of All Out War (they've proven that they just aren't going to handle the big action scenes well), and then an introduction to what comes next.


Edit: Per Variety, it was the lowest ratings they've had for a midseason premiere.

Season 2 (2012)– 4.2 rating, 8.1 million viewers
Season 3 (2013)– 6.1 rating, 12.3 million
Season 4 (2014)– 8.2 rating, 15.8 million viewers
Season 5 (2015)– 8.0 rating, 15.6 million viewers
Season 6 (2016)– 6.8 rating, 13.7 million viewers
Season 7 (2017)– 5.7 rating, 12 million viewers
Season 8 (2018)– 3.6 rating, 8.3 million viewers

Yikes.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/02/28 19:10:31


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Ultramarine Librarian with Freaky Familiar





Gak...the trash people are back, and they're meeting Simon of the Saviours. Lets hope they don't defect AGAIN. How many times has it been now?

Joined Rick's militia.
Defected to the Saviours.
Defected back to Rick's Militia.
Betrayed Rick's Militia, and now they're parleying with the Saviours again.

I hope that both sides loath and distrust them so much that nobody will take them back, and we spend an episode with both the Saviours and Rick's Militia hunting and eradicating the Trash people. That'll at least make for satisfying filler.


This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/02/28 19:43:09


 
   
Made in us
[DCM]
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Now that would be a good episode of the show, finally!

   
 
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