Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

So, I don't think I've ever come across a CSM player who has used havocs. Given how much light-side marine players drool all over themselves when you say "devastators", this seems odd to me. Conversely, everybody and their mother seems to take obliterators.

For only 25 points more than the obliterators, you can get a 4x lascannon havoc squad with an abblative wound and an IoCG. Both bring 6 T4 wounds to the table and 3 lascannons. Meanwhile, the havocs get +1 lascannon, better leadership, and a bunch of close combat attacks, as well as not being bothered by instant death. Yes, obliterators get to deepstrike (which, for some reason, nobody seems to think is ever a good idea), and they get the 2+/5++ rather than the 4++ of cover, and they can also move and shoot (though once again, leaving cover seems to be frowned upon). A more flexible weapon, certainly, but does that really stack up against the extra lascannon?

It seems to me that both the havocs and the obliterators are roughly equal in quality, more or less. As such, the fact that oblits are everywhere and havocs are nowhere doesn't make sense to me.

What am I missing?

Oblits fit every situation, they even have multimelta, being one of two units in the chaos codex that has one. You only use the lascannon the first couple of turns, then you switch over to plasma cannons, tl-plasma guns, multimelta etc.

Oblits are also relentless, you often don't have to leave cover to get a much better firing position, it's enough being able to move and fire.

Whatever happens, the oblits will be able to aid your plan. Havocs are totally inflexible and immovable. Oblits also demand anti-tank weapons if you want to kill them efficiently. Every lascannon fired at oblits is one less lascannon ripping your rhino's apart.

Deepstriking oblits can work extremely well if you have icons, so in more aggressive armies, the deepstrike ability is a bonus.

You don't see many vanilla marine players drooling over devastators, you only see space wolf players drooling over longfangs. BA devastators are pretty good in a DOA list, but they can get FNP and enhanced cover, and are hidden in a swarm of FNP bodies. They are also lower costed than the overcosted vanilla devastators, but not undercosted like the long fangs.

Havocs are even worse off pts-wise than even vanilla devastators, right?

Because people think static HW's are terrible for some bizarre reason. Oblits are a swiss army knife, true, but they don't spit out lots of shots. Havocs do. Me and Darkhound endorse them, so did a bunch of good CSM posters before they were driven off by being practically ignored. 4x AC or 2AC 2ML spits out some good anti AV10-12 firepower.

As a small note, deepstriking oblits can be quite good. The invul save and 2 wounds means you have a small chance of losing a model.

4x ac or 4xml are far superior anti light armor (av10 to 12) than oblits. ml are also great against meq and t6 3+ mc.

Lc on havocs are not good, too many points on too fragile of a unit. Against av13/14 melta is better. Against 2+ armor saves plasma is better.

Havocs are a weak cc unit but have a good synergy with oblits and defilers when they babysit havocs.

4x ac or 4xml are far superior anti light armor (av10 to 12) than oblits. ml are also great against meq and t6 3+ mc.

Lc on havocs are not good, too many points on too fragile of a unit. Against av13/14 melta is better. Against 2+ armor saves plasma is better.

Agreed. I use a 6 man havoc squad with IOCG with 3 x ac and 1 x ML for a good blend of anti-light armour and, if need be, anti MC or infantry. Lascannons are a wee bit too expensive. I don;t know why CSM players are blindfolded into mostly taking Oblits. Obliterators are good, but when you need to de mech stuff - I run a dual lash, all slaanesh list - then the havocs are totally superior. I put the blame down to the whole interweb list phenomenom. When I suggest to a Chaos player on here to use havocs, I usually get hounded out by Team Oblits

Caranthir987 wrote:

4x ac or 4xml are far superior anti light armor (av10 to 12) than oblits. ml are also great against meq and t6 3+ mc.

Lc on havocs are not good, too many points on too fragile of a unit. Against av13/14 melta is better. Against 2+ armor saves plasma is better.

Agreed. I use a 6 man havoc squad with IOCG with 3 x ac and 1 x ML for a good blend of anti-light armour and, if need be, anti MC or infantry. Lascannons are a wee bit too expensive. I don;t know why CSM players are blindfolded into mostly taking Oblits. Obliterators are good, but when you need to de mech stuff - I run a dual lash, all slaanesh list - then the havocs are totally superior. I put the blame down to the whole interweb list phenomenom. When I suggest to a Chaos player on here to use havocs, I usually get hounded out by Team Oblits

I cannot understand why havocs would be totaly superior in a dual lash list,
Obliterators are exellent together with dual lash, you can clump your enemy with lash and then use plasma cannons and score extraordinary ammounts of hits.
I do not say havocs are bad but with a dual lash i would defenetly go with obliterators as they can do serious pain together with lash.

schadenfreude wrote:

Havocs are a weak cc unit but have a good synergy with oblits and defilers when they babysit havocs.

Just as good as your average CSM, also better in CC than a tac marine! I know these aren't CC heavyweights, but still better than alot of non-dedicated CC units. I've had 5 Havocs punch on with 5 outflanking stealers and win.

I am not advocating CC havocs just pointing that out.

I find havocs useful for channeling an opponent by creating no-go zones.

Illumini wrote:
Whatever happens, the oblits will be able to aid your plan.

When that speeder/skimmer is turbo boosting up your flank and you need to knock it out, 2 lascannons for the oblits, 4 AC's for the havocs. I'm gonna go the havocs to stop that Typhoon from ripping my armor up from the far side of the field. Jack of all trades, master of bringing multi/TL melta's and plasma cannons.

My army is an all Slaanesh force. With NM with doom sirens and possessed and defilers, so I need to get forward and assault. Which means I need my opponents troops out of transports, and thats what is what is being discussed. My 6 x S7 and 1 x S8 shots from Havocs is generally better than 3 x lascannons fromoblits at taking out transports. Plus its cheaper. For my army havocs work much better whilst allowing me more units of expensive Noise Marines!

Anyways, people only see the 'cluster together and shoot' aspect of lash, and tend to ignore that CSM can still smash face in assault.

Havocs are good in rhinos with special weapons. But as heavy weapon users they're bound by inability to move. This is their main weakness.

When an oblit needs to move to get a clear shot they still have the potential to move 6" and shoot. Although they average about 4". Not only that but it's fine for them to move out of cover because they have 2 wounds and a 5++ (though watch out for lascannons). Oblits are also fearless iirc so they don't run if they lose anyone.

However, if havocs need to move then they're deffo not shooting that turn. Also, if they move out of cover they become a lot more vulnerable. And because they'll be standing in cover at first, they'll have the obliterator disadvantage (SnP) without the advantage (relentless).

Hence, I find oblits are better. Not to mention the versatility of weaponry. As the game closes up and people are close together havocs can still only shoot with their heavy weapons. Whereas an oblit can fire a heavy flamer/plasma gun and then charge with a PF as well....

lunarman wrote:
However, if havocs need to move then they're deffo not shooting that turn. Also, if they move out of cover they become a lot more vulnerable. And because they'll be standing in cover at first, they'll have the obliterator disadvantage (SnP) without the advantage (relentless).

So being in cover= being in area terrain? riiiiight.

Havocs and oblit are apples and oranges, really. They do two different things. In Caranthir987's example, havocs mesh with his army much better than oblits. The old lash list focused on either vindicators or plasma cannon oblits. I gotta say when learning CSM, and the game in general (CSM was my first army when I started playing again), Oblits were so damn useful- I'd never leave home without at least one. These days though, I can't remember the last time I used oblits.

I guess it depends on the kind of boards you play on. But where I play, with infantry is very hard to get a cover save that doesn't give your enemy a cover save without being in area terrain. Vehicles are a different matter. But for your guys to get a cover save they'd have to be less than half visible to the enemy but still all be able to see them.

So the only way to do that would be with barricades/walls that cover half the height of a model but still allow shooting.

I've used them a couple times before, and have not been impressed. The weapon costs range from bizarre (Autocannons) to horrific (everything else), but they're the only source of mass heavy weapons, if you need them.

The question is, do you *really* a bunch of Lascannons or Missile Launchers? With Termicide giving you pinpoint Melta delivery, you have little need for Autocannons and Missiles. Chosen loaded with 5 Meltas should pretty much set you for anti-tank, and your troops can usually handle other infantry.

Oblits not only always have the right tool for the job, they'll always have something good against the army you fight. Lascannons aren't particularly useful against Orks, etc. This can mitigated by taking Autocannons, but now your paying points to be mediocre at everything.

In the end, I just feel that with the amount of special weapons CSM can deliver, we don't need expensive, static fire support elements sitting around in the backfield.

Thanks for the input, all.

schadenfreude wrote:4x ac or 4xml are far superior anti light armor (av10 to 12) than oblits.
Lc on havocs are not good, too many points on too fragile of a unit.

So, the cost isn't so much a thing for me. It's difficult for me to figure out where to spend a stray 60 points in the CSM codex, and so an upgrade to better weapons seems worth it.

The autocannons are certainly more efficient, but we've crossed the effectiveness threshhold here just by taking 4 BS4 heavy weapons. What piece of AV10 are we going to come across that 4x lascannons can't also easily destroy? Meanwhile, at least the lascannons can also take down monstrous creatures and AV 13/14 and bother terminators, none of which the AC can really do.

odorofdeath wrote:In the end, I just feel that with the amount of special weapons CSM can deliver, we don't need expensive, static fire support elements sitting around in the backfield.

Now, see, I used to think the exact same thing with guard. SWSs and PCSs are SO CHEAP. You can basically saturate the field with special weapons, so why bother with heavies?

Then I started playing against eldar (both stripes), and that unfortunately flew somewhat straight out the window (especially against DE). Now, a havoc or chosen squad is certainly more durable, but they still only have the same range. Running infantry on foot is plenty mobile, unless you're playing against someone who moves18" or 24" a turn...

As for termicide (I'd actually go with plasma rather than melta), that's the third serious choice I have other than oblits and havocs. While termies are better against ID weapons and hordes in close combat (althouth they're not great in this role), the oblits, for the same price, bring 1 more 2++ wound, and actually do more damage with either TL melta or TL plasma. In short, a pair or a trio of obliterators does the same thing as termicide, except you have the option to leave them in the backfield and shoot at stuff.

Jihallah wrote: Oblits were so damn useful- I'd never leave home without at least one. These days though, I can't remember the last time I used oblits.

Why? What changed? Was it just your local meta adapting to them?


Oh, also, is there anything to consider special given that the rest of the army is just troops and winged DPs?

Ailaros wrote:So, I don't think I've ever come across a CSM player who has used havocs.

Sure you have. You interact with him all the time and he does pretty well with them.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/403073.page

That's a nice list to see.

Of course, obliterators still outnumber havoc squads by 2:1...

Ailaros wrote:That's a nice list to see.

Of course, obliterators still outnumber havoc squads by 2:1...

Hey, no changing the ask.

Also, I was curious, is there diminishing returns to either of these squads? At least, any moreso than usual? With the quality of troops and HQ choices in the CSM codex, obviously you don't want to have too much opportunity cost, but, say, when you hit two squads of two obliterators, is there some sort of problem with taking a third pair, compared to, say, havocs?

Ailaros wrote:Also, I was curious, is there diminishing returns to either of these squads? At least, any moreso than usual? With the quality of troops and HQ choices in the CSM codex, obviously you don't want to have too much opportunity cost, but, say, when you hit two squads of two obliterators, is there some sort of problem with taking a third pair, compared to, say, havocs?

Yes, there is huge diminishng returns on the 3rd squad of oblits, and the 3rd oblit in a squad when they fire their plasma cannons.

2 lash princes lash 2 squads of meq. 2 squads of oblits plasma cannon the lashed squads. The 1st plasma cannon shot kills 5 out of every 6 meq, 2nd and 3rd plasma cannon shots are overkill. The 3rd squad of oblits simply acts as 75 point lascannons often being used to open an av11 transport.

How about havocs, with 2 flamers and 2 melta guns, champ geared for combat, in a rhino.
It's pretty cheap, and if you're going mech, another rhino or three shouldn't hurt.

-Matt

Ailaros wrote:The autocannons are certainly more efficient, but we've crossed the effectiveness threshhold here just by taking 4 BS4 heavy weapons. What piece of AV10 are we going to come across that 4x lascannons can't also easily destroy? Meanwhile, at least the lascannons can also take down monstrous creatures and AV 13/14 and bother terminators, none of which the AC can really do.

ACs provide better anti-infantry than Lascannons, and since you aren't taking Oblits (DSing Heavy Flamers vs. hordes, Plasma Cannons) Defilers (Large Blast) or Dakka Preds, you need a bit more. Chances are if you aren't taking Oblits you're relying on Termicide and melta hunters to get your AP1, so you don't need too much heavy hitting firepower.

That's the big difference between Oblits and Havocs: AP1. If you don't want sacrificial AP 1, you can take Oblits, and make your Elites/Troops a bit more dependable.

I prefer a defiler and 2 3 man oblit squads.. Then have the defiler move and shoot so then if the canon is destroyed he just becomes a fleet dread.

HawaiiMatt wrote:How about havocs, with 2 flamers and 2 melta guns, champ geared for combat, in a rhino.
It's pretty cheap, and if you're going mech, another rhino or three shouldn't hurt.

-Matt

That's certainly an option as well. You can do the same thing with Chosen, and have 6 dual threat units in the list, plus whatever craziness you do with the troops (which could be the same thing kind of, with a 10-man dual melta-unit and a combi-flamer).

Also, for that list linked above, keep in mind that a 2:1 oblit over havoc ratio is not a bad idea. One Oblit squad will be dropped quickly, and two will ensure that your Havocs will survive that much longer. I guess I could see the value of Havocs in a list like that.

I also agree that the 2:1 ratio is a sound list. The key to running oblits effectively is to not use them as transport opening lascannons. 3 oblits is too expensive of a unit to use from opening up rhinos, and 2 oblits is an unreliable that will often yield a whiff + weapon destroyed combo. Oblits need to be destroying 200+ point squads every turn, not wrecking 35 point transports.

Chaos is also loaded with meltas, so a single squad of anti transport havoc is plenty.

Last but not least comes the 6th ed speculation. I'll be dollars to doughnuts that the price of a quad missile or quad ac havoc squad drops by 40 points in the next codex. CSM players will then scramble to field 3 squads of havocs, and find them entering a well prepared metagame that is prepared to deal with longfangs while many of the CSM players are completely inexperienced with running static heavy weapon squads. I expect the first lesson they will learn is havocs are a lot easier to keep alive if a defiler or oblits are close enough to them to intercept incoming cc units.

schadenfreude wrote:Yes, there is huge diminishng returns on the 3rd squad of oblits, and the 3rd oblit in a squad when they fire their plasma cannons.

2 lash princes lash 2 squads of meq. 2 squads of oblits plasma cannon the lashed squads.

What if you're not using lash princes?

somerandomdude wrote:ACs provide better anti-infantry than Lascannons, and since you aren't taking Oblits (DSing Heavy Flamers vs. hordes, Plasma Cannons) Defilers (Large Blast) or Dakka Preds, you need a bit more.

Yes, but autocannons are risibly terrible against infantry. Less so than lascannons perhaps, but better is not necessarily good.

Secondly, this is chaos - all their troops come with a free bolt pistol, while their good ones also come with fearless and either FNP or +1A. It doesn't seem to me that CSM need to rely on infantry heavy weapons to handle hordes.

schadenfreude wrote:I also agree that the 2:1 ratio is a sound list. The key to running oblits effectively is to not use them as transport opening lascannons. 3 oblits is too expensive of a unit to use from opening up rhinos, and 2 oblits is an unreliable that will often yield a whiff + weapon destroyed combo. Oblits need to be destroying 200+ point squads every turn, not wrecking 35 point transports.

Wait, what? A pair of obliterators is only 150 points, why does it need to destroy 200+ points every turn to be worth taking?

Is it only worth taking obliterators in squads of three? Is it really only worth it to take pairs, or can a single oblit be worthwhile? I ask because in every 1500 pt. list I've been putting together as of late, I have enough points left over for either 5 oblits, or 3 oblits and a squad of havocs (or, with a little work, 2 oblits and either 2 more or a havoc squad, and then adding on a GSD, but that's another story...)

odorofdeath wrote:

The question is, do you *really* a bunch of Lascannons or Missile Launchers? With Termicide giving you pinpoint Melta delivery, you have little need for Autocannons and Missiles.

Termicide is pinpoint these days? Last time I checked they scattered. And targets they really do enjoy, the big juicy hard targets tend to be protected, bubble wrapped or reserved. It can be guided with an icon, but 6" from an icon on turn 2 isn't a guarantee that you'll get a pinpoint deepstrike. Guideable, but not pinpoint.

Also, ML's and autocannons excel more at taking down transports than heavy armor. The melta delivery is for the heavy stuff, the AC's and ML's for the lighter stuff. Or is termiciding a rhino whats good these days? (situation's could arise!)

Ailaros wrote:Thanks for the input, all.

schadenfreude wrote:4x ac or 4xml are far superior anti light armor (av10 to 12) than oblits.
Lc on havocs are not good, too many points on too fragile of a unit.

So, the cost isn't so much a thing for me. It's difficult for me to figure out where to spend a stray 60 points in the CSM codex, and so an upgrade to better weapons seems worth it.

The autocannons are certainly more efficient, but we've crossed the effectiveness threshhold here just by taking 4 BS4 heavy weapons. What piece of AV10 are we going to come across that 4x lascannons can't also easily destroy? Meanwhile, at least the lascannons can also take down monstrous creatures and AV 13/14 and bother terminators, none of which the AC can really do.

Speeders, turbo boosting serpents. Picking at small details here

Ailaros wrote:

Jihallah wrote: Oblits were so damn useful- I'd never leave home without at least one. These days though, I can't remember the last time I used oblits.

Why? What changed? Was it just your local meta adapting to them?


Oh, also, is there anything to consider special given that the rest of the army is just troops and winged DPs?

I found I could put in 1 or 2 shots at long range, until things got a bit closer, or DS them. Havocs would put out pound for pound more shots than the oblits in the first two turns, and I valued that much more. Most of my local's mech up or are semi-meched, and being able to cripple or destroy key transports or the few transports they had would give me a greater advantage- something oblits could not do as reliably as havocs. At first I wasn't sure what I wanted from my heavy weapons when I was relearning the game, now I know what I need. The rest of the army is indeed a bundle of troops, usually 2 dp's or a sorc (real men play without lash!), maybe some chosen, and I loved me a pair of vindicators. Everything is capable of bringing alot of pain, but not before I have cracked the hard cold foul exterior of the candy known as the rhino/wave serpent/chimera/whatever, and get to the sweet gooey heavenly treat that is my opponents exposed troops. Squads of CSM can play (cult and regular) can play that 12-18" band hard, real hard. But bolter's don't hurt transports, and melee'ing it to death results in a counter rapid fire/assault. Against a friends army with TH/SS terms, vanilla marines, 2 dreads and 2 preds- CSM will beat down everything there in assault or 12-18" except the terminators. The meltaguns, krak grenades and fists are enough to take down the dreads (of course havocs help here too- no dread wants to walk out of cover in front of them), the preds are the same except the whole melee thing, vanilla marines will get beat down in assault or in a pissing contest, since it will devolve into a fist fight. But by god they can be trixy swine if they still have those bloody metal boxes to hide in. I hate those metal boxes, with a passion, I want them dead, dead as close to their table edge as possible. The LESS distance a transport can transport its cargo, the better it is for me. And if it can be blown before disgorging its crew and going on to storm bolter/multilaster/shuriken cannon at the last 2 dudes in a squad sitting on an objective, or block my movement/LOS, tank shock my troops off objectives or into flame template shapes. Empty transports are so ing annoying- they did their job, AND now they're doing all kinds of silly shenanigous !

I should know, I love to do that shenanigous with my rhino's

Ailaros wrote:

schadenfreude wrote:Yes, there is huge diminishng returns on the 3rd squad of oblits, and the 3rd oblit in a squad when they fire their plasma cannons.

2 lash princes lash 2 squads of meq. 2 squads of oblits plasma cannon the lashed squads.

What if you're not using lash princes?

If you're not using a lash prince, I'd say you're not wearing a skirt

Jokes asides- I think so. Not as much, but they need to be a bit closer to do some lifting without lash. at long range, PC's at inf probably in cover and LC's at 75 points a pop doesn't feel too effective- especially when you roll badly. With so few shots, it seems to happen more often.

Ailaros wrote:
Wait, what? A pair of obliterators is only 150 points, why does it need to destroy 200+ points every turn to be worth taking?

Is it only worth taking obliterators in squads of three? Is it really only worth it to take pairs, or can a single oblit be worthwhile? I ask because in every 1500 pt. list I've been putting together as of late, I have enough points left over for either 5 oblits, or 3 oblits and a squad of havocs (or, with a little work, 2 oblits and either 2 more or a havoc squad, and then adding on a GSD, but that's another story...)

Oblits I found work best in pairs. 3 is a hefty amount to pay, which will only give you a good return if you wear a skirt... i mean use lash one oblit will whiff shots like you've never seen before, at least mine do, but can still be effective- one model so it seems less threatening, still has his 2+/5++ so still tough and survivable, and its a walking Plasma cannon. I've had some strange success with that walking PC/LC on the flank. Folk's forget about him not so much in the sense of "Holy crap where did that oblit come from!" but the sense of making sure your units are in cover, partially because its only one model and also because he's mobile. I've caught terminators in the open by taking a few steps, sniped bassy's and riflemen from bizzare angles etc. In your above example (5 Oblits vs 3 and havos) I would go the three and split them 2:1- walk the single oblit, use the havocs to blow trannies and the other two can do what they do best- your swiss army knife, jack of all trades, masters of the plasma cannon

-edit- I just did a double take. When I first started posting here, it wasn't a thread about raptors that popped up every few weeks where the same old views are hashed out again and again. Nah, that thread used to be the "what HS choice to take for CSM?" and the answer was resounding - "TAKE OBLITS NOTHING BUT OBLITS AS MANY OBLITS AS YOU CAN 2 LASH DP's 9 OBLITS WHATEVER TROOPS I MEAN HOWEVER MANY PLAGUE MARINES YOU CAN TAKE OR IF YOU FEEL FUNNY TAKE 3 VINDICATORS YEAH MAN ITS GREAT. USE MY NETLIST LIEK REALLI GOOD!", with a handful of good posters saying "well, if you don't use lash and need a volume of fire, havocs and ac/las preds..."

Hmm, that's a lot of mull over.

Of specific points, I'd like to note that terminators still scatterless deepstrike around icons. That said, I'm still not a big fan of melticide. I can't imagine I'll often have an icon where I want to DS on turn 2 or 3, and even with Airborne Assault, my melta stormies were obnoxiously prone to mishaping themselves. Deepstriking with plasma is a fair amount safer though, and with a "hello" of 5 combi plasmas... sassy. Of course, oblits can also do this to, so...

Secondly, 4 autocannons shooting at a speeding serpent wrecks or immobilizes .58. The lascannons do it at .51 (assuming shooting front armor). They're basically the same. Of course, I'm now starting to more seriously consider missile just for the cost factor (and because I could give khorne berzerkers panzerfausts...)

Thirdly, I've never really been all that scared of transports, even with foot lists. The only problem I've had is catching them, which really only applies to eldar foolery. Plus, in many cases I'll only need to get the power fist in to close the deal on most of what will come out of a transport.

That said, I've never played a foot power armor list before, so being able to put down key things in advance seems like a good idea, thus me bothering with HS slots at all. I'm liking more and more the weight of fire argument, but I think I'm still bedazzled somewhat by deepstriking plasma, which is what keeps me liking obliterators...

As for vindis, I played guard enough for large blast vehicles to still leave a lingering foul flavor, and for preds... well... for the cost of a 3 lascannons, I could have 2 lascannons and all the goodies of obliteratorness, or 4 missile launchers and not have all the finickiness of vehicles. Were I running a mech list personally, of course I'd take them over havocs, but as I'm not I'm more or less stuck between oblits and havocs, as far as I can see.

Ailaros wrote:Hmm, that's a lot of mull over.

Of specific points, I'd like to note that terminators still scatterless deepstrike around icons. That said, I'm still not a big fan of melticide. I can't imagine I'll often have an icon where I want to DS on turn 2 or 3, and even with Airborne Assault, my melta stormies were obnoxiously prone to mishaping themselves. Deepstriking with plasma is a fair amount safer though, and with a "hello" of 5 combi plasmas... sassy. Of course, oblits can also do this to, so...

Secondly, 4 autocannons shooting at a speeding serpent wrecks or immobilizes .58. The lascannons do it at .51 (assuming shooting front armor). They're basically the same. Of course, I'm now starting to more seriously consider missile just for the cost factor (and because I could give khorne berzerkers panzerfausts...)

Thirdly, I've never really been all that scared of transports, even with foot lists. The only problem I've had is catching them, which really only applies to eldar foolery. Plus, in many cases I'll only need to get the power fist in to close the deal on most of what will come out of a transport.

That said, I've never played a foot power armor list before, so being able to put down key things in advance seems like a good idea, thus me bothering with HS slots at all. I'm liking more and more the weight of fire argument, but I think I'm still bedazzled somewhat by deepstriking plasma, which is what keeps me liking obliterators...

As for vindis, I played guard enough for large blast vehicles to still leave a lingering foul flavor, and for preds... well... for the cost of a 3 lascannons, I could have 2 lascannons and all the goodies of obliteratorness, or 4 missile launchers and not have all the finickiness of vehicles. Were I running a mech list personally, of course I'd take them over havocs, but as I'm not I'm more or less stuck between oblits and havocs, as far as I can see.

I think you had the right idea with havocs and 3 oblits split into 2 squads. In a chaos list I would recommend ML over AC because CSM have a large overall lack of S8+ AP3 long ranged firepower.

The big problem with deep striking meltacide is the icon is attached to a troop unit that probably already has melta guns. Deep striking terminators with plasma are dirt cheap for what they do, 4 terminators with combi plas cost less than 2 oblits.

Also don't underestimate small pies in a lash list. As long as toughness is 4 or less and the armor save is 5 or worse then 4 frag missiles>2 plasma cannons, situations include lashed guardsmen, gaunts, genestealers, orks, and deamons. Rhinos equiped with havoc missile launchers are also devastating against those units. One frequent issue you may run into is units on the top floor of a building won't move far enough with a single lash to be forced out into the open. So if lash can't move a unit of long fangs out into the open and clustered just cluster them and hammer away with rhino equipped havoc missile launchers. S5 AP5 small pie doesn't sound like much at first, but it's very accurate at BS4 Twin linked. All the small pie tricks I listed can't replace oblits, but oblits are such a flexible unit the key to getting the most out of them is to have dedicated tools perform the job of dedicated tools, and then the Swiss army knife of the list performs whatever job is left that there isn't a dedicated tool for.

schadenfreude wrote:The big problem with deep striking meltacide is the icon is attached to a troop unit that probably already has melta guns. Deep striking terminators with plasma are dirt cheap for what they do, 4 terminators with combi plas cost less than 2 oblits.

Sure, by 10 points...

In my particular case, I'm not bringing dudes with melta and icons, but even still, I agree that the case for them is still pretty weak.

schadenfreude wrote:Also don't underestimate small pies in a lash list. As long as toughness is 4 or less and the armor save is 5 or worse then 4 frag missiles>2 plasma cannons

Even against MEq, the MLs aren't that bad in this case. Yes, they have a harder time wounding and still allow armor, but with 4 missile launchers you could easily score over 30 hits against a small pie lash unit. It won't wipe out a tac squad straight out, but it will thin it down to less than half its models, allowing a DP to sweep in and finish it off with just one decently rolled assault phase.

Yes, I consider not scattering within 6 to be pretty pinpoint. If you don't take any icons than yes, its a crapshoot, but come on now...

The main problem I have with havocs is that they're static firepower in an army that desperately needs all the mobility it can get to win. Obviously we're best up close, but havocs sit around in the back.

Its up to you if you wanted to take them, and they probably won't be *terrible*. But against my regular opponents (gk and de) they wouldn't last long, so oblige where always the better choice.

well the problem with termicide (much more especially with melta) isn't that you have icons, but that it's going to be really tough to have an icon where you'd want to drop termies at the beginnings of turn 2 and 3. No infantry unit, mounted or otherwise, is going to be within melta range of anything particularly interesting turn 2, and only situationally turn 3, which means that if you're going to call in termies this way, you've got to have raptors or a wings lord (as DPs can't take icons, and bikes can't go through terrain).

Why do you think CSM "desperately" needs mobility more than any other army? Even in a foot horde army, you're likely to have some HWSs or lootas or something chilling out on the backfield. Why is CSM an exception?

Also, why are havocs bad against DE? I thought DE didn't have lots of long-range firepower, so in order to get close enough to use ravager guns they'd have to get close to DPs and nasty troops choices. Furthermore, why are oblits better against DE? I'd think the weight of fire would put things in favor of the havocs.