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Re: ShumaGorath's assertion in this thread

ShumaGorath wrote:He's also in the most overpowered book GW has put out in a decade.

ShumaGorath wrote:

pretre wrote:Also, see IG Armoured Company. Not really a book though. I also think the GK hysteria is uncalled for. If GK was as OP as everyone on the internet puts it out to be we'd probably have some different results in the competitive community.

Gray knights being half or more of the top tables in every major tourney since the book was released isn't good enough?

ShumaGorath wrote:

1 Rick Puig 19 23 23 65 Imperial Guard
2 Mark Billings 12 24 22 58 Grey Knights
4 Bill Hennessey 22 9 22 53 Dark Angels
3 Charles Peters 11 23 16 50 Grey Knights
5 Mattew Bennett 15 16 19 50 Grey Knights
3 Aaron Aleong 21 14 9 44 Grey Knights

In the ard boyz all four of those GK players were in the top six.

In the DaBoyz GT the grey knights scored consistently above curve in the actual gameplay section of the scoring criteria. They get nailed on soft scores as they're seen as a cheap army to play. If it were not a soft scored tourney they would have been the overall winners according to the results.

I can't see what the BFS players were playing on that link.

In the bugeater there was one GK player in the entire tourney.

So yeah.. Where's this GK domination?

Half of what you just posted was GK dominated. One of the other two was pre codex it seems and the other doesn't show armies played.

ShumaGorath wrote:

So at one 'AB location there was >50% GK on the top 6.

http://www.baldandscreaming.com/news/2011-ard-boyz-semi-finals-nationwide-results/

Umm. I hate PDFs and I'm not going to go through the effort to retype that, so I'll let this go. Still isn't 50% at the top tables that you were claiming.

Actually, it was. But this is a soft scored tourney so actual victories don't directly imply high placement.

Look at the top gold brackets. Mike played Guard, Ragnar played Chaos. That's 50% non-gk right there. Also, the bugeater proves my point.

You cherry picked four tourneys and were literally wrong on half of them. You're point is hardly "proven" if this is the best you had.

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ShumaGorath wrote:B&S's graph

You're going back to Prelims and Semis. Also, if you remember they were the majority of the armies so were disproportionately represented.

Actually, it was. But this is a soft scored tourney so actual victories don't directly imply high placement.

I scanned it and I don't buy your assumption, but whatever.

You cherry picked four tourneys and were literally wrong on half of them. You're point is hardly "proven" if this is the best you had.

Woah woah woah chief. Slow down with the negative implications. I picked 4 tournaments since April that I had ready links to from BoK. I tried doing a quick search of Tournament Discussions but didn't see a lot of results threads.

So far, you have provided 'Ard Boyz. Where's your other tournaments where GK's are sweeping the top tables?

Also, we're now on topic!

I'm at work, I'll do this if I have time later. I was not expecting this to mysteriously become it's own thread.

For feth's sake, are you guy's really doing this?

Find the numbers for tournaments just after Blood Angels, Space Wolves and IG each came out.

Then we'll talk.

ShumaGorath wrote:I'm at work, I'll do this if I have time later. I was not expecting this to mysteriously become it's own thread.

Better than continuing to drag the SoB FAQ thread into OT land.


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daedalus wrote:For feth's sake, are you guy's really doing this?

Find the numbers for tournaments just after Blood Angels, Space Wolves and IG each came out.

Then we'll talk.

That's my point largely. I'm just trying to keep this out of the other thread.

pretre wrote:

ShumaGorath wrote:I'm at work, I'll do this if I have time later. I was not expecting this to mysteriously become it's own thread.

Better than continuing to drag the SoB FAQ thread into OT land.

That thread was in the ground the moment SoBs became it's focus.

I find it entertaining. Granted I also don't believe GK's are broken. I find they slot in nicely to 5th edition.

Hulksmash wrote:I find it entertaining. Granted I also don't believe GK's are broken. I find they slot in nicely to 5th edition.

Agreed. I have actually had little to no problem with GKs so far in 5th edition. Granted I only do one tournament a month, but I have lost to exactly one GK player and it was damn close (Amusingly enough, Celestine not getting back up lost me the game.) I think it was about 4 games with my SW at 2500 and 6-8 with Sisters and Orks at 1500-2000.

Meh, they're great, but not obviously the best.

They're new, which always boosts numbers. They are also a small investment of money to have a competitive army. That's pretty significant. That's also tied to a small number of models, obviously.

I can get the 30 models for a Grey Knight assembled and painted in no time compared to other armies, and it's much cheaper on the wallet.

So we have a competitive, cheap, timely, new army. It all adds up to a lot of them appearing.

DarknessEternal wrote: They are also a small investment of money to have a competitive army. That's pretty significant. That's also tied to a small number of models, obviously.

I can get the 30 models for a Grey Knight assembled and painted in no time compared to other armies, and it's much cheaper on the wallet.

I think this is really big part of their appeal and the appeal of Draigowing overall. 30 Infantry models are nothing when it comes to preparation.

DarknessEternal wrote:Meh, they're great, but not obviously the best.

They're new, which always boosts numbers. They are also a small investment of money to have a competitive army. That's pretty significant. That's also tied to a small number of models, obviously.

I can get the 30 models for a Grey Knight assembled and painted in no time compared to other armies, and it's much cheaper on the wallet.

Being new didn't immediately put Dark Eldar, Blood Andgels, or tyranids on top tables. It probably doesn't help that GKs are the primary foil to two out of the three of those armies though.

ShumaGorath wrote:Being new didn't immediately put Dark Eldar, Blood Andgels, or tyranids on top tables. It probably doesn't help that GKs are the primary foil to two out of the three of those armies though.

DE's point is that you couldn't field BA,DE or Tyranids by opening 3 or 4 boxes of GK Terms and assembling them.

pretre wrote:

DarknessEternal wrote: They are also a small investment of money to have a competitive army. That's pretty significant. That's also tied to a small number of models, obviously.

I can get the 30 models for a Grey Knight assembled and painted in no time compared to other armies, and it's much cheaper on the wallet.

I think this is really big part of their appeal and the appeal of Draigowing overall. 30 Infantry models are nothing when it comes to preparation.

I'll agree that draigowings popularity and low model count +ease of painting helps their numbers. Keep in mind though, you can do similarly costed death star builds with Orks BAs and SWs and those armies don't place well currently. Draigowing does. Draigowing also isn't the best GK build but still manages to do exceptionally well.


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pretre wrote:

ShumaGorath wrote:Being new didn't immediately put Dark Eldar, Blood Andgels, or tyranids on top tables. It probably doesn't help that GKs are the primary foil to two out of the three of those armies though.

DE's point is that you couldn't field BA,DE or Tyranids by opening 3 or 4 boxes of GK Terms and assembling them.

It would be weird if you could open 4 boxes of GK terms and start a tyranid army .

ShumaGorath wrote:I'll agree that draigowings popularity helps their numbers. Keep in mind though, you can do similarly costed death star builds with Orks BAs and SWs and those armies don't place well currently. Draigowing wins.

You can do similar cost to Draigowing in Orks, BAs and SW?

Blackmoor's Draigowing at Nova was 12 Terms (like 150), 10 Strikes (like 60) and 3 Dreads (like 120) and that's assuming no conversions or cheap alternatives.

Also, who says that BA, Orks and SWs don't place?


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ShumaGorath wrote:It would be weird if you could open 4 boxes of GK terms and start a tyranid army .

I lol'd. That was good.

Basically $200 for a 2000+ point army is what I'm saying.

You can do similar cost to Draigowing in Orks, BAs and SW?

Nob bikers, honor guard drop, Loganwing.

Blackmoor's Draigowing at Nova was 12 Terms (like 150), 10 Strikes (like 60) and 3 Dreads (like 120) and that's assuming no conversions or cheap alternatives.

Also, who says that BA, Orks and SWs don't place?

It's not set in stone that they can't, but the armies I just mentioned don't with any regularity.

Basically $200 for a 2000+ point army is what I'm saying.

I really don't think thats as big a barrier as you make it seem. When IG was dominating top tables it had representation in tournies similar to what we're seeing with GKs. IG mech is not a cheap army to play.

ShumaGorath wrote:Nob bikers, honor guard drop, Loganwing.

Fair enough on Nob bikers. The other ones are a bit spendier, iirc.

Also, who says that BA, Orks and SWs don't place?

It's not set in stone that they can't, but the armies I just mentioned don't with any regularity.

Yeah... I'm gonna let this slide but I think it is just wrong. SW has continued to be a strong codex since it came out.

I really don't think thats as big a barrier as you make it seem. When IG was dominating top tables it had representation in tournies similar to what we're seeing with GKs. IG mech is not a cheap army to play.

The point isn't that it is a barrier that some armies are expensive. The point is that low price is an incentive.

Fair enough on Nob bikers. The other ones are a bit spendier, iirc.

Nob bikers is the most expensive of the ones we're talking about.

Yeah... I'm gonna let this slide but I think it is just wrong. SW has continued to be a strong codex since it came out.

Loganwing hasn't been the army that has been making them strong. Please stop misquoting me.

The point isn't that it is a barrier that some armies are expensive. The point is that low price is an incentive.

It's not a very good point whatever it is because you're supposing a cause and effect without supporting evidence and with evidence to the contrary.


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Anyway, I'm going to lunch. This thread is bad and you should all feel bad.

ShumaGorath wrote:

Fair enough on Nob bikers. The other ones are a bit spendier, iirc.

Nob bikers is the most expensive of the ones we're talking about.

Really? 5xWarbikers Box, 2xNobs Box.

It's not a very good point whatever it is because you're supposing a cause and effect without evidence and with evidence to the contrary

Funny, that's what we were saying about your point.

Anyways, let's get back to your first point.

Show me where GK are dominating the Tournament Scene.


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ShumaGorath wrote:Anyway, I'm going to lunch. This thread is bad and you should all feel bad.

This thread is a direct result of your crazy assertion. You can only blame yourself.


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calypso2ts wrote:

ShumaGorath wrote:
In the DaBoyz GT the grey knights scored consistently above curve in the actual gameplay section of the scoring criteria. They get nailed on soft scores as they're seen as a cheap army to play. If it were not a soft scored tourney they would have been the overall winners according to the results.

Did you actually look at the scores for the 'soft scores' in this tournament and related them to GK? This statement is patently false. The top battle point armies were, actually, not GK. The top GK army scored 172 Battle Points, the next army scored 149. There was 1 GK army in the top 10 overall. In Battle Points the best GK player was 3rd in Battle Points. There was nothing dinstinctive about GK at Da Boyz and it had NOTHING to do with soft scores.

Anyways, let's get back to your first point.

Show me where GK are dominating the Tournament Scene.

http://www.baldandscreaming.com/army-lists/nova-open-invitational-winner-nick-nanavati-grey-knights/
http://www.baldandscreaming.com/news/battle-for-salvation-grand-tournament-2011-results/
http://www.baldandscreaming.com/news/2011-ard-boyz-semi-finals-nationwide-results/

BFS wrote:Battle for Salvation GT 2011 Results
click here for spreadsheet

The Winners

Renaissance Man – Mike Brandt (Imperial Guard)
Gold Bracket Champion – Neil Gilstrap (Grey Knights)
Silver Bracket Champion – Shaun Kemp (?)
Bronze Bracket Champion – Robert Roda (Dark Eldar)
Best Appearance – Chris Dubuque (Blood Angels)
Best Sportsman – Robert Roda (Dark Eldar)
Tournament Ace – Ryan Holiday (Grey Knights)
Tournament Ace – Michael Somerville (Imperial Guard)
Tournament Ace- Ragnar Arneson (Chaos Space Marines)

2 of 10. Wow. They really did dominate there. Heck 2 of 6 for Champion / Ace.


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http://www.baldandscreaming.com/army-lists/nova-open-invitational-winner-nick-nanavati-grey-knights/
Top table was SW vs GK. So 50% there from that link.

pretre wrote:

BFS wrote:Battle for Salvation GT 2011 Results
click here for spreadsheet

The Winners

Renaissance Man – Mike Brandt (Imperial Guard)
Gold Bracket Champion – Neil Gilstrap (Grey Knights)
Silver Bracket Champion – Shaun Kemp (?)
Bronze Bracket Champion – Robert Roda (Dark Eldar)
Best Appearance – Chris Dubuque (Blood Angels)
Best Sportsman – Robert Roda (Dark Eldar)
Tournament Ace – Ryan Holiday (Grey Knights)
Tournament Ace – Michael Somerville (Imperial Guard)
Tournament Ace- Ragnar Arneson (Chaos Space Marines)

2 of 10. Wow. They really did dominate there. Heck 2 of 6 for Champion / Ace.

Those are categories that include soft scoring.
The winner of the tourney was GKs. The first tourney ace was gray knights.

I didn't say that they dominated paint scoring or sportsmanship did I? Is that something I said? Is that in the codex? Does a grandmaster give +10 paint score?

No. This conversation is dumb. You clearly lack perspective with which to review these results. This is the third time you've failed to understand what you were reading when reviewing results. I'm done.

ShumaGorath wrote:No. This conversation is dumb. You clearly lack perspective with which to review these results. This is the third time you've failed to understand what you were reading when reviewing results. I'm done.

NO YOU! edit: Smiley here since this is a joke.

You said "Gray knights being half or more of the top tables in every major tourney since the book was released isn't good enough?"

I'm simply showing that they are not half or more of the top tables in most major tourneys.

But feel free to run off.

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Also, note that I said 2 of 6 for Champion / Ace. That would be 1/3, btw, of battle categories.

To be fair, and possibly to poke fun, GK didn't place in the 'Ard Boyz finals where I played, I think it was DE, Eldar and IG =).

But yeah, I do see a lot of GK players all over the place. I think it is for the following reasons (as have been touched on):

-Low model count, east to put together and paint
-Very forgiving and powerful unit choices
-Easy to play/win with as the tools in the codex are so strong and straight forward to use compared to more complex armies like Dark Eldar/Eldar and so on.

Basically, it is easier to win with GK than other armies I think.

I think the biggest factor to the Grey Knights success is the ability to have seriously broken troops and STR 8 TL Auto cannon Dreads.

Paladins and Terminators are nice but not really under priced power houses like the dreads and purifiers. Taking them costs a ton of points so it kind of balances out.

Purifiers on the other hand are 120 points for 5 guys in power armor with force weapons, stormbolters, 2 base attacks, their two psychic powers, fearless and whatever other abilities that help them against daemons and psychics.

To get them you only need what? A 150 point HQ choice?

I am not sure how everyone else reads the purifying flame ability but I have seen people playing it as if two squads assault one other unit then they both get their flame attacks and do 20 hits to 10 guys... Perhaps that is not how it should be played but even without it they are totally broken.

To add on to that 120 points the upgrades are as cheap as 2 points per halberd and 5 points for a Hammer!? 10 points for up to 4 heavy weapons in a 10 man squad? So their troops are basically heavy-elites. And all 6 slots of troops can be that? At least in orks its only one squad of Nobs per warboss...

Compare the cost to any other troops choice in any other codex. For the same point cost of a unit of Purifiers can you see the other codex's being near as broken?

Space marine Troops - 90 points, 5 guys in power armor, 4 have only 1 base attack, and all with only a boltgun and bolt pistol, 1 guy can be upgraded... to what.. at 120 points a 5 man space marine squad has one guy with a power weapon and plasma pistol? Or fist and ... 5 extra points? Oh yea.. that is fair...

Ork troops - Base cost 10 boyz 60 points, Nob with Klaw, Big Shoota, and Bosspole = 45, so at 105 we have 15 points left. Woo hoo 2 more boyz and 3 extra points!

Or you could have 6 base nobz...Dying to the force weapons...

Oh and yea.. the dreadnought is the same as the space marine except for a couple points more and then with a 5 point upgrade has incredibly better weapons.

mortetvie wrote: more complex armies like Dark Eldar/Eldar and so on.

Dark Eldar? Complex? That's laughable, take 6-9 venoms and 3 Ravagers and just start rolling to hit, that army plays itself. The only complex thing about playing Eldar is deciding what is the least of the terrible units to pair with Eldraad...

mortetvie wrote:Basically, it is easier to win with GK than other armies I think.

Yes, which is a pretty loose definition that essentially means OP.

GK and DE are both pretty similar armies bone headedly easy to play, set up, move up (maybe not even move up), and roll your buckets of egregious dice, the GK for psybolt amo and the DE for poison.

Between GK and DE 40k 5th isn't very diverse anymore, at least the space wolves had a variety of nasty builds. 2 armies that do it all, shoot a ton, have great vehicles, have great antitank, and have great melee as well. Why play anything else?

IMO Matt Ward is balancing out the codexs, might take a few years but what i hear about the TAU coming out it sounds like they will be OP too. just comes to how you play, GK are too new to have the "age old way" of beating them yet.

If you think GK are a 'forgiving' army to play then I suggest you try playing a double header where you play the same mission/deployment but swap armies with your opponent in the second game.

Perhaps surprisingly it generally turns out that GK aren't 'forgiving' or 'broken' once people have played a couple of such matches.

What seems to me to be most often the case is that people don't like the fact that they have to rethink their tactics (and possibly what makes a good all-comers list) when faced with GK.

I'm pretty confident the same bleating will be heard about Necrons in due course (and probably from GK players too).

Gk=Op? Is that why csm, orks, sw and ig are continually placing or winning more often? The numbers as mentioned are skewed due to the volume playing the new books. BUT sw, orkz, IG etc have all been out for quite awhile and still have a ton of players and placing high.

@Agustus:
***

mortetvie wrote: more complex armies like Dark Eldar/Eldar and so on.

Dark Eldar? Complex? That's laughable, take 6-9 venoms and 3 Ravagers and just start rolling to hit, that army plays itself. The only complex thing about playing Eldar is deciding what is the least of the terrible units to pair with Eldraad...

mortetvie wrote:Basically, it is easier to win with GK than other armies I think.

Yes, which is a pretty loose definition that essentially means OP.
***

I don't run Eldrad that often, though he is pretty nice. I usually run Wraithguard, some Fire Dragons, some Wraithlords and other mech elements and do fairly well. Anyway, to address what you said, DE are not GK nor are they as easy to win with as GK. That venom army (my friend plays it pretty well) does OK against some armies but it can get thrashed pretty easily against any decent shooting or anyone that can make a cover save or take that kind of shooting (there are some armies out there) from their tanks (he takes 3X4 blaster truborn, 5 blaster warriors in venoms-though he is liking wyches better-and 3 ravagers).

I kind of feel miffed in that you are knocking the skill it takes to play Eldar and Dark Eldar vs GK... I mean are you really trying to say the Eldar armies are on par with GK as far as cost effectiveness and "op-ness" and skill required to play? I've played against GK (and have not lost with my Eldar mind you) and AS GK (I have a thousand sons army counts as GK atm). GK are like easy mode compared to any Eldar equivalent.

@ Artemo, I do think GK are forgiving, especially coming from an Eldar player's background/perspective. When I play as GK, its point and click (for the most part), when I play as Eldar, it is like Sun Tzu art of war. I think knowing how to play as and against GK takes some time to learn but the learning curve is a lot easier than with some of the more difficult armies to win with. Case in point, my GK Draigo and friends list has a lot easier time with a lot of different armies vs my Eldar but ironically enough, my Eldar beat Draigo and friends pretty easily (I was surprised how wraithlords can lay the smackdown on Paladins lol...)

This is a silly thread. No army is an auto-win button unless you're playing against a robot. Time has passed and people have devised tactics to beat GK. Just as they devised tactics to beat SW, just as they devised tactics to beat IG, etc, etc.

Also, Complaining about purifiers when there are Grey hunters out there seems like a silly waste of time. You can take more than 2:1 grey hunters to purifiers when you factor in crowe. I'm sure all the SW players are like "woo hoo! I mean... uh... yeah, those purifiers are crazy OP!!!". And anyways what does complaining about them get done? Do you think GW is gonna come down from on high and ban something? When was the last time that happened... oh, right. Never.

TLR Work on beating lists, not bitching about them.

Dok wrote:This is a silly thread. ... TLR Work on beating lists, not bitching about them.

/slowclap

That was my point, so thanks!