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2011/12/19 05:09:52
Subject: It Was Never a War. It Was an Invasion and We Are the Empire.
An unleashing of mega-violence by an Empire upon a people who were no threat to them. Zero.
A unilateral assault by the United State of America on a small nation that had nothing to do with 9/11, that in fact despised and were threatened by the Saudi fundamentalists that perpetrated 9/11 just as much as us.
No, what happened in Iraq was no war.
It was a crime.
And if the United States weren’t the armed to the teeth and the economic bully of the world, we would be held accountable.
If you had any doubts whether this was a “war” or something else, all you had to do was watch the sad spectacle of the new leader of our Empire standing up there ALONE declaring “war is over.”
News flash: it takes two side to have a war. Where was the “enemy?”
No surrender, no peace treaty or armistice, no enemy bowing before us — or alternately if they had won preening and primping in victory.
The second clue this was not a war is that you cannot end a war by unilaterally stopping. That's how you end an invasion or attack, not a war.
A war ends when someone wins or loses. If we won, what did we win? Who did we defeat? Where are they?
In fact trillions of dollars and hundreds of thousands of dead later we lost by creating a nation where none before existed now open for business for violence, tribalism, lawlessness, fundamentalist extremists, and now full of people who hate us to the core and would most certainly harm us if they could.
A war ends when two sides make moves or come to terms.
An attack ends when the rapist stops raping, the murderer stops murdering, the bully stops bullying, or in this case when an Empire who cannot even admit it is an Empire tires of beating a tiny nation to a pulp.
The third clue that this was an invasion, an attack by an Empire, not a war, is the decision of the Emperor that the other side “doesn’t count.”
Evil genius!
No more guilt over innocent people’s brains blow out, arms and legs flying across the street into someone’s yard, children incinerated as they slept, babies dead in a dead mother’s arms. Simply decide they “don’t count.” By not counting them.
Our “war president” a guy who will go down in the annals of history with other stupid, violent, rulers of empires as a tragic character, who decided in his insanity that the way to deal with our slaughter was to pretend it doesn’t exist.
And we, the people of Empire, went along with it.
They do not count. But our people do.
We know the names and numbers of the 9/11 victims 2,997.
We know the names and number of our own troops killed: 4,484 in Iraq.
We know the names of number of those killed in the chaotic carnage of Vietnam, of World War II, and World War I, the Korean War, the Spanish-American conflict, the Civil War, and even the Revolutionary War.
We know how many were killed in the Titanic, roughly how many Jews were lost, how many people were gassed by Saddam, how many have been slaughtered in Syria.
Those people count, so we try to count them.
But in Iraq the most technologically-advanced, wealthiest Empire there ever was claims we have no clue or estimate as to the number of Iraqis killed. Umm, killed by us.
The lowest estimate I could find for civilians alone was 100,000, the highest, 1,000,000.
Killed for our benefit, or more accurately our collective delusion we are in a “war.”
And do the good People of Empire clamor for this accounting, to make sure that Iraqis “count” as much as people from Brooklyn or Oakland or Chapel Hill?
No.
It’s not too late.
We need to count the bodies: those killed in our name. Iraqis are human beings too. They count. Count them.
We need to apologize for the invasion, the attack, the killing, the slaughter, the ruin of a civilization that we might not have liked, but was not our toy to blow up when we tired of it.
We need to make reparations to the Iraqi people even if it means we go without at a very, very difficult time. We need to make them whole, even if it means our own ruin.
We need to hold our leaders accountable for the dead, the tortured, and any war crimes.
We need to hold accountable any of our troops or contractors who killed or destroyed wantonly.
We need to admit to the world we were wrong and ask for help in changing our ways.
Our troops that have returned from this terrible errand need to be take care of, and apologized to, including the families of the dead.
Of course we are going to do none of this.
We’re the Empire of Delusion.
Our conservatives declare their mental illness by wanting to leave more troops to defend freedom and fight terrorists and keep Iraq from failing.
Seek help immediately, FOX and friends.
From America you can see a violent failed state where people are having their heads cut off and terrorists are in charge. Stand in El Paso with binoculars and look over the river to Juarez. Invade them and see how that goes.
And my fellow liberals, those of us who had an “anti-war” movement because we did not have the balls to have a “stop the war” movement, we can be so sad about all this, but in the end we accept it.
We're so sad, we will be booking flights on jets filled with thousands of gallons of oil presented to us as plunder of our violence around the world, and our violence against the planet.
I’m so sad about “the war,” but I am the special me, after all. Excuse me while I use the fruits of Empire to make myself happy.
That’s what Empires do: invade, attack, pillage, plunder, get, consume, dominate. For the people. For the common good. For prosperity. For peace.
And then deny deny deny. Disown: I am a good Roman. I am a good German. I am a good American. I'd stop it if I could.
Excuse me I have to watch get my nachos and watch the Lions.
Empires have always been this way. And all their people, those lusty for empire, and those sad about it, live a good life, or at least a life better then the ones they pillage and plunder and brutalize.
Warning: when the Empire begins to crack, chickens come home.
The dogs of war we let fly around the world, the crazed machine of war and might and brutality and control, is unleashed on its own people.
After all, they might be terrorists.
Then there is the sad fact that Iraq is not a democracy after all the needless deaths and billions wasted for the past 8 years. It's especially bad for women.
Yanar Mohammed, president of the Organization of Women’s Freedom in Iraq, joins us to discuss the impact of the nearly nine-year U.S. occupation, particularly on Iraqi women. "The Iraqi cities are now much more destroyed than they were, I would say, like five years ago," Mohammed says. "In the same time, we have turned to a society of 99 percent poor and 1 percent rich, due to the policies that were imposed in Iraq." Mohammed decries the repression of Iraqi protesters that joined the Arab Spring in a February 25th action. "The women are the biggest loser in all of this. We went to the Iraqi squares. We demonstrated. The Arab Spring was there very strongly but got oppressed in ways that were new to Iraqi people. Anti-riot police of the American style was something that we witnessed there... This is not a democratic country." [includes rush transcript]
And "As David Letterman pointed out, we might tell the last American troops leaving Iraq this month to turn out the lights, but that isn’t necessary since there’s no electricity."
Goodbye, Iraq Robert Dreyfuss on December 12, 2011 - 10:42am ET
As David Letterman pointed out, we might tell the last American troops leaving Iraq this month to turn out the lights, but that isn’t necessary since there’s no electricity.
Today, President Obama meets Prime Minister Nouri al-Maliki to ceremonially mark the end of the war. After eight and half years, the United States is leaving behind a nation and a society that has been utterly devastated by the misguided and illegal war. Hundreds of thousands of Iraqis are dead, and an entire generation of children is scarred and traumatized. Iraq’s infrastructure and its industry were destroyed. And in place of Saddam Hussein is Maliki, a religious Shiite fundamentalist with close ties to Iran who is fast building an authoritarian regime.
But that’s not good enough for neoconservatives and many Republicans, who want to expand and continue the war and the American presence.
As the Washington Post reported over the weekend, Iraqis don’t exactly have fond feelings for the United States. The legacy of sectarian and ethnic massacres and mass killings by US forces lingers. The Post’s article, “Civilian killings created insurmountable hurdle to extended U.S. troop presence in Iraq,” highlighted the horrific massacre at Haditha, where US Marines shot and killed nineteen civilians, including ten women and children, in a frenzy of savagery. Reports the Post:
On those facts, U.S. and Iraqi accounts agree. On just about everything else—why it happened, whether it was justified and how it was resolved—they do not.
And in those dueling perceptions, over the killings in Haditha and others nationwide, lay the undoing of the U.S. military’s hopes of maintaining a long-term presence here. When it came to deciding the future of American troops in Iraq, the irreconcilable difference that stood in the way of an agreement was a demand by Iraqi politicians for an end to the grant of immunity that has protected on-duty U.S. soldiers from Iraqi courts.
In the Christian Science Monitor, describing the experiences of the Khafaji family, Scott Peterson reminds us of the almost unimaginable losses suffered by Iraqis, many of whom blame the United States for their trauma even if some of the deaths were caused by Iraqis, including the resistance:
Iraq’s fragile social fabric has been shredded by the kinds of bombings, killings, torture, and upheavals that afflicted so many like the Khafaji family—whether at the hands of Sunni extremists like Al Qaeda, Shiite militias, or US and Iraqi forces. While the US lost more than 4,500 soldiers—and spent nearly $1 trillion—the human toll on the Iraqi side is virtually unquantifiable and unimaginable, with estimates of the number of people who perished in the years of insurgency and sectarian civil war reaching into the hundreds of thousands.
Fred and Kim Kagan, in a Post op-ed, point out correctly that Maliki is aggrandizing power, rounding up Sunnis and supposed Baathists willy-nilly, while refusing to relinquish his hold on the defense and interior ministries. But they overstep by criticizing the Obama administration for not taking stronger action to try to shape Iraqi politics and security affairs to American liking:
Obama administration policy presumes that Maliki generally shares U.S. interests and will pursue them even without significant American assistance. Were that true, Maliki would aggressively protect American civilian and diplomatic personnel who have been threatened by the cleric Muqtada al-Sadr and recently targeted to such a degree that the embassy has restricted their travel. He would direct security forces to act against Iranian-sponsored militias in Iraq. Rather than abstaining, he would have supported the Arab League’s vote to suspend Syrian membership. He would see to it that Ali Mussa Daqduq, the Lebanese Hezbollah operative responsible for the execution of American soldiers in Karbala in 2007, is transferred to U.S. custody or tried in Iraq and punished for his crimes. He would appoint a permanent minister of defense and an interior minister acceptable to Parliament rather than concentrating those powers in his office.
Fact is, Maliki runs Iraq, not the United States. He’s there because the United States catapulted him and a bunch of other exiles, many linked to Iran, into power after 2003. There’s little or nothing that the United States can or should do to insert itself into Iraqi politics now. With luck, Iraqi nationalism will reassert itself vis-à-vis Iran, and Iraq will likely rely in the future on cash and investments and technology from Western countries and the Arab nations of the gulf. But if not, and if Iran begins to transform Iraq into a client state and ally, so be it.
The case of Daqduq is especially troubling, since many neocons and Republicans want Obama to sneak him out of the country and put him in Guantánamo, even though doing so would be illegal and a blatant violation of Iraq’s national sovereignty. But as the Times notes, it’s all political:
Republicans, however, are seeking to frame the withdrawal in different terms: that Mr. Obama endangered national security by pulling out of Iraq too soon, and that he should have persuaded the Iraqis to allow United States troops to stay beyond the deadline agreed to by the Bush administration three years ago. Elevating the profile of Mr. Daqduq and highlighting any unsatisfactory outcome to his case could bolster such efforts to cast Mr. Obama’s Iraq record in a negative light.
It’s time to celebrate the end of the war in Iraq, which did not go well. And to remind President Obama that it’s time to end the war in Afghanistan, too.
This message was edited 5 times. Last update was at 2011/12/19 05:33:03
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2011/12/19 05:28:43
Subject: Re:It Was Never a War. It Was an Invasion and We Are the Empire.
I would point out all the flaws in the "article" you posted, but seeing as how you utilize Michael Moore as a news source, a source mind you that is just as, if not MORE biased than Fox News, I'll spare myself the waste of time in trying to convince you.
CoALabaer wrote: Wargamers hate two things: the state of the game and change.
2011/12/19 06:01:38
Subject: It Was Never a War. It Was an Invasion and We Are the Empire.
It Was Never a War. It Was an Invasion and We Are the Empire.
What an awful title. Invasions happen in the course of war, and whether or not we are an empire has no bearing on whether or not we are engaging in warfare.
Life does not cease to be funny when people die any more than it ceases to be serious when people laugh.
2011/12/19 06:56:19
Subject: It Was Never a War. It Was an Invasion and We Are the Empire.
Oh man, some highly opinionated people are using sweeping generalizations to make another generalization based solely on their opinion. But they say America is an evil nation so they must be right.
2011/12/19 06:57:36
Subject: It Was Never a War. It Was an Invasion and We Are the Empire.
Wars never "go well", soldiers are going to die and so are some civilians. When the enemy decides to hide behind civilians, the civilian toll will rise.
2011/12/19 08:11:43
Subject: It Was Never a War. It Was an Invasion and We Are the Empire.
halonachos wrote:Oh man, some highly opinionated people are using sweeping generalizations to make another generalization based solely on their opinion. But they say America is an evil nation so they must be right.
I'm wondering whether you're the pot or the kettle.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
halonachos wrote:When the enemy decides to hide behind civilians, the civilian toll will rise.
Yes, when the enemy hides behind the soldier/civilian distinction the civilian toll will rise.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2011/12/19 08:13:37
Life does not cease to be funny when people die any more than it ceases to be serious when people laugh.
2011/12/19 09:53:47
Subject: It Was Never a War. It Was an Invasion and We Are the Empire.
Powder Burns wrote:what they need to make is a fullsize leatherman, like 14" long folded, with a bone saw, notches for bowstring, signaling flare, electrical hand crank generator, bolt cutters..
2011/12/19 12:03:17
Subject: Re:It Was Never a War. It Was an Invasion and We Are the Empire.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2011/12/21 10:35:38
Proud Member of the Infidels of OIF/OEF
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2011/12/19 12:23:52
Subject: Re:It Was Never a War. It Was an Invasion and We Are the Empire.
The article is so badly written it doesnt warrant a lengthy and intelligent response, so I shall simply say..
Hippy crap!
We are arming Syrian rebels who support ISIS, who is fighting Iran, who is fighting Iraq who we also support against ISIS, while fighting Kurds who we support while they are fighting Syrian rebels.
2011/12/19 13:45:00
Subject: It Was Never a War. It Was an Invasion and We Are the Empire.
mattyrm wrote: The article is so badly written it doesnt warrant a lengthy and intelligent response, so I shall simply say..
Hippy crap!
Agreed!
Albatross wrote:Though the Michael Moore article was appallingly written, the USA is an imperial power and its citizens need to make their peace with that.
well yes..personally I'm just waiting till we colonize europe
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2011/12/19 14:49:53
Subject: Re:It Was Never a War. It Was an Invasion and We Are the Empire.
MTV is doing that nicely for us. Now if they loosen up some gun laws maybe their chavs will start offing each other off. Mustangs and Chargers though be a hard sell over there. Unless their old school muscle cars then you can sell 3 times more then what you can sell in the states
Proud Member of the Infidels of OIF/OEF
No longer defending the US Military or US Gov't. Just going to ""**feed into your fears**"" with Duffel Blog Did not fight my way up on top the food chain to become a Vegan...
Warning: Stupid Allergy
Once you pull the pin, Mr. Grenade is no longer your friend
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RIP Muhammad Ali.
Jihadin, Scorched Earth 791. Leader of the Pork Eating Crusader. Alpha
2011/12/19 15:39:27
Subject: It Was Never a War. It Was an Invasion and We Are the Empire.
Let's be honest, the whole thing was a shambles from start to finish.
I read a good report about how the Iraqi army's main munitions dump was left unguarded for 4 months. Despite the pleas from locals to the US army, tonnes of high grade explosives went walkies in the middle of the night. Dozens of dodgy looking characters turned up on a day-to-day basis with their trucks, and just drove away with the stuff.
Weeks later, US troops started getting blown to bits from roadside bombs.
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deaths and the sun will be swept from the sky. But is it true?" - Tom Kirby, CEO, Games Workshop Ltd
2011/12/19 15:41:31
Subject: Re:It Was Never a War. It Was an Invasion and We Are the Empire.
WARORK93 wrote:Has it really been a week since our last "Bad, bad, evil America" thread?
Oh how time flies...
It's only been a few hours actually.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Huffy wrote:well yes..personally I'm just waiting till we colonize europe
I bet you'd love to colonize some Europeans.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2011/12/19 15:42:34
The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
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2011/12/19 15:51:13
Subject: It Was Never a War. It Was an Invasion and We Are the Empire.
mattyrm wrote: The article is so badly written it doesnt warrant a lengthy and intelligent response, so I shall simply say..
Hippy crap!
Oh well, what's done is done. People said all the same things about Vietnam.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Albatross wrote:Though the Michael Moore article was appallingly written, the USA is an imperial power and its citizens need to make their peace with that.
Yeah, agreed. If you get over the fact that we ARE an imperial power, the conflicts abroad are much easier to digest. We aren't the same nation we were when the founding fathers said we would never be an aggressor.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2011/12/19 15:55:50
If only ZUN!bar were here...
2011/12/19 16:13:27
Subject: It Was Never a War. It Was an Invasion and We Are the Empire.
Yeah, agreed. If you get over the fact that we ARE an imperial power, the conflicts abroad are much easier to digest. We aren't the same nation we were when the founding fathers said we would never be an aggressor.
True. The real question is, "How do you feel about that fact?"
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2011/12/19 16:13:59
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2011/12/19 16:15:02
Subject: It Was Never a War. It Was an Invasion and We Are the Empire.
Any and every country that gets influential enough will become imperialistic in some regards, because the interests of the country cannot be contained in merely the country alone in the age of globalization.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2011/12/19 16:15:23
The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog
2011/12/19 16:34:27
Subject: It Was Never a War. It Was an Invasion and We Are the Empire.
Yeah, agreed. If you get over the fact that we ARE an imperial power, the conflicts abroad are much easier to digest. We aren't the same nation we were when the founding fathers said we would never be an aggressor.
True. The real question is, "How do you feel about that fact?"
Sadly, for many Americans the answer seems to be 'Waaaaa! They're saying mean things about us! Waaaaa! They're blowing us up! WHY DON"T THEY LOVE US AS MUCH ASWE LOVE OURSELVES!?'
Stuff like that. It's almost as if some people can't understand that torture, kidnapping, imprisonment without trial and almost constant military agression towards weaker countries for half a century might invite criticism...
EDIT: Felt that 'many' was more accurate than 'most', on reflection.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2011/12/19 17:00:08
Proud Member of the Infidels of OIF/OEF
No longer defending the US Military or US Gov't. Just going to ""**feed into your fears**"" with Duffel Blog Did not fight my way up on top the food chain to become a Vegan...
Warning: Stupid Allergy
Once you pull the pin, Mr. Grenade is no longer your friend
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RIP Muhammad Ali.
Jihadin, Scorched Earth 791. Leader of the Pork Eating Crusader. Alpha
2011/12/19 16:49:08
Subject: Re:It Was Never a War. It Was an Invasion and We Are the Empire.
Jihadin wrote:How soon before the world economy tanks?
Depends on how hard Europe feths itself up (we all know they're going to, it's just a matter of degree) and if the republicans continue to try to drive the US economy into the ground with their budget scares.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2011/12/19 16:49:28
The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog
2011/12/19 16:53:54
Subject: Re:It Was Never a War. It Was an Invasion and We Are the Empire.
Their sticking to "How are we paying for it?" tactic is quite notable.
Proud Member of the Infidels of OIF/OEF
No longer defending the US Military or US Gov't. Just going to ""**feed into your fears**"" with Duffel Blog Did not fight my way up on top the food chain to become a Vegan...
Warning: Stupid Allergy
Once you pull the pin, Mr. Grenade is no longer your friend
DE 6700
Harlequin 2500
RIP Muhammad Ali.
Jihadin, Scorched Earth 791. Leader of the Pork Eating Crusader. Alpha
2011/12/19 16:58:18
Subject: Re:It Was Never a War. It Was an Invasion and We Are the Empire.
Jihadin wrote:Their sticking to "How are we paying for it?" tactic is quite notable.
As is their wanting to raise the budget on the military without bothering to ask that very question
Republicans tax and spend too, they just do it in different ways than Democrats. It's how government works
The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog
2011/12/19 16:59:32
Subject: It Was Never a War. It Was an Invasion and We Are the Empire.
Yeah, agreed. If you get over the fact that we ARE an imperial power, the conflicts abroad are much easier to digest. We aren't the same nation we were when the founding fathers said we would never be an aggressor.
True. The real question is, "How do you feel about that fact?"
I don't see why this would give anyone any pause!
I'm a staunch imperial and a classic movie villain though, so it might just be me.
I would happily destroy an entire planet just to upset Princess Leah for example.
We are arming Syrian rebels who support ISIS, who is fighting Iran, who is fighting Iraq who we also support against ISIS, while fighting Kurds who we support while they are fighting Syrian rebels.
2011/12/19 17:13:02
Subject: Re:It Was Never a War. It Was an Invasion and We Are the Empire.
I might sound incredibly nerdy, and I'm probably going to get major hate for this, but first off, you utilize incredibly biased articles to make us believe you. Part of making a good summary is to use information that is unbiased and other sources that are biased both ways.
Second, lots of wars are sparked by invasion. The Carthaginian War, for example, was caused by invasion.
Third, I wouldn't call the war in Iraq an invasion. Invasions are where you aim to take over land via violent means. Seeing as American troops are now being shipped out, and there is no US land in Iraq, they clearly haven't invaded.
Finally, since when has the US been an empire?
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2011/12/19 17:24:33
Subject: It Was Never a War. It Was an Invasion and We Are the Empire.
halonachos wrote:When the enemy decides to hide behind civilians, the civilian toll will rise.
Just to play devils advocate: what other option did they have?
If you think of the US in terms of the schoolyard bully, they are an eighteen year old thug picking on pre- schoolers. Fighting the US conventionally is suicide. War is no longer chivalric or fair. When the enemy can kill you in various ways accurately and from great distances with overwhelming force, you are left no option but to adopt guerilla tactics...
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