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OK, my third attempt to try and heave this juggernaut back onto the rails of civilised conversation and not mindless s***-flinging.

What of the Gatling psycannon? I heard rumours of it being a normal psycannon except with heavy 12. I can't help but feel 12 S7 shots from a single (fairly cheap) unit may be slightly imbalanced

Cerebrium wrote:OK, my third attempt to try and heave this juggernaut back onto the rails of civilised conversation and not mindless s***-flinging.

What of the Gatling psycannon? I heard rumours of it being a normal psycannon except with heavy 12. I can't help but feel 12 S7 shots from a single (fairly cheap) unit may be slightly imbalanced

Really, nobody knows what any of the wargear does. Vague rumor/guesstimation said it would be strength 5. Nobody can confirm anything more than what everyone knows.

I would consider my last argument rather uncounterable and non-gak-flingy.
Except for the crayons part. I think both sides are in on that though.

ph34r wrote:

gendoikari87 wrote:

Priests and Enginseers:
1. Do not use up selections
2. Are treated as HQ units

Emperor's Champion:
1. Does not use up an HQ slot
2. Is an HQ choice

you just invalidated your own argument, as the priests can't be your manditory HQ but the emperors champion can. The champion uses the word CHOICE, the priest does not. End story.

As an IG player I can say with confidence that it being an HQ choice, it can be your mandatory HQ.

Show up to an offical tournament and try to pass that list off, you'll see.

Okay, I will. Oh wait, I already have. In fact, even the INAT FAQ says that it is legal to fulfill force orgs with Priests and Enginseers. Sorry

INAT faq is not GW legal, Furthermore, the entry says they are "otherwise treated as a separate HQ unit." which means they had to clairify that its still an HQ, because it's not taking up a selection, which is the word it uses, selection, never does it say slot.

guess that that means they don't fill that FOC manditory selection because it's in their rules that they don't. SPECIFICALLY "Does not use up any FOC [sic] Selection" HQ has to be filled but they don't use it up, sorry dude, you are wrong by RAW RAI, and RAUBMRL

I'm just trying to stop the arguement fullstop, no matter how well-thought out either side is.

PEACE AND LOVE GUYS. CAN'T WE ALL JUST PURGE THE UNCLEAN IN UNITY?!

S5 would be a bit better. Will be great versus hordes. Just makes me think of the autocannon in the original DoW intro movie, hosing down masses of orks.

Cerebrium wrote:OK, my third attempt to try and heave this juggernaut back onto the rails of civilised conversation and not mindless s***-flinging.

What of the Gatling psycannon? I heard rumours of it being a normal psycannon except with heavy 12. I can't help but feel 12 S7 shots from a single (fairly cheap) unit may be slightly imbalanced

it's a gatling, they're supposed to be overpowered. Anything as uber win-cool as a gatling gun is supposed to be.

That is true. Plus anything wielded by a mech gets +1 Rule of Cool points.

Cerebrium wrote:I'm just trying to stop the arguement fullstop, no matter how well-thought out either side is.

PEACE AND LOVE GUYS. CAN'T WE ALL JUST PURGE THE UNCLEAN IN UNITY?!

S5 would be a bit better. Will be great versus hordes. Just makes me think of the autocannon in the original DoW intro movie, hosing down masses of orks.

No, we can't all purge the unclean in unity. In fact the Inquisition being divided is a long standing fact of fluff.

Furthermore threatening to disallow someone's army that they put tons of effort into based on your own incorrect rules interpretation is worth arguing against.

gendoikari87 wrote:

ph34r wrote:

gendoikari87 wrote:

Priests and Enginseers:
1. Do not use up selections
2. Are treated as HQ units

Emperor's Champion:
1. Does not use up an HQ slot
2. Is an HQ choice

you just invalidated your own argument, as the priests can't be your manditory HQ but the emperors champion can. The champion uses the word CHOICE, the priest does not. End story.

As an IG player I can say with confidence that it being an HQ choice, it can be your mandatory HQ.

Show up to an offical tournament and try to pass that list off, you'll see.

Okay, I will. Oh wait, I already have. In fact, even the INAT FAQ says that it is legal to fulfill force orgs with Priests and Enginseers. Sorry

INAT faq is not GW legal, Furthermore, the entry says they are "otherwise treated as a separate HQ unit." which means they had to clairify that its still an HQ, because it's not taking up a selection, which is the word it uses, selection, never does it say slot.

guess that that means they don't fill that FOC manditory selection because it's in their rules that they don't. SPECIFICALLY "Does not use up any FOC [sic] Selection" HQ has to be filled but they don't use it up, sorry dude, you are wrong by RAW RAI, and RAUBMRL

While I think its DUMB to think henchmen don't take up a troop slot. If your going to bring up tournaments you can't then say the INAT has no base, becouse it isn't from GW. INAT is the standerd for tournaments.

gendoikari87 wrote:INAT faq is not GW legal, Furthermore, the entry says they are "otherwise treated as a separate HQ unit." which means they had to clairify that its still an HQ, because it's not taking up a selection, which is the word it uses, selection, never does it say slot.

guess that that means they don't fill that FOC manditory selection because it's in their rules that they don't. SPECIFICALLY "Does not use up any FOC [sic] Selection" HQ has to be filled but they don't use it up, sorry dude, you are wrong by RAW RAI, and RAUBMRL

GW does not address it at all. INAT is for the most part very well reasoned and decided on by consensus.

Selection and slot are the same thing. If you honestly think that GW intended for selection and slot to have different and distinct rules meanings I am just flabberghasted. There is a stronger argument for Wraithlords not being able to shoot because the cannot draw line of sight because they do not have eyes.
My rule is if you have less support than "wraithlords can't shoot", you are doing it wrong.

Whatever, fine, I don't care any more, you probably live in a different continent from me, do what you like with your little plastic men. I just can't be bothered arguing anymore. You have broke me through attrition. Well done.

Noir wrote:While I think its DUMB to think henchmen don't take up a troop slot. If your going to bring up tournaments you can't then say the INAT has no base, becouse it isn't from GW. INAT is the standerd for tournaments.

You are entitled to think that unlimited henchmen is dumb.

However, consider that when GW made the new Grey Knight codex, they took out Stormtroopers, Inducted Imperial guard platoons, and all other sorts of ways of filling out your Inquisitorial army. They gave INQ players the boon of unlimited henchmen to give them a way to actually fill out an army.

yes now try validate that techpriests can be used as your manditory HQ using that logic, Selection or slot doesn't matter as they are the same thing.


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ph34r wrote:

Noir wrote:While I think its DUMB to think henchmen don't take up a troop slot. If your going to bring up tournaments you can't then say the INAT has no base, becouse it isn't from GW. INAT is the standerd for tournaments.

You are entitled to think that unlimited henchmen is dumb.

However, consider that when GW made the new Grey Knight codex, they took out Stormtroopers, Inducted Imperial guard platoons, and all other sorts of ways of filling out your Inquisitorial army. They gave INQ players the boon of unlimited henchmen to give them a way to actually fill out an army.

yeah, and if they don't take up a slot then those inq armies are invalid. you just keep prooving my point without seeing it don't you?

as for now, I think this deserves it's own thread.

I don't recall the BRB requiring filling an HQ SLOT to be your mandatory HQ. They require an HQ SELECTION. We have a precedent for not HQ slot taking units qualifying at the HQ selection for an army from GW with the Black Templar's Emperor's Champion. I think that justifies using a Priest or Enginseer as the mandatory HQ for an IG army.

Edit:

Please don't start a YMDC thread over rules we're not even 100% sure are final....

If they don't take a slot then that's the only way the INQ armies are valid, so you can have more than 6 units.

This basically comes down to "do units that don't take up slots fulfill requirements"?

The precedent is "yes" as shown by Emperor's Champions and the INAT FAQ.

And all the "don't take slot" units have similar wordings. It's either "Force organization slot" or "Force organization chart selection" or "HQ slot on a force organization chart".

Yes, yes it does. Someone please fetch the mods to throw all this bumph into it's own thread. I just want to discuss CodexL Grey Knights rumours.

here it is: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/348181.page#2470409

now we just need the mods to throw the comments in.

Cerebrium wrote:Yes, yes it does. Someone please fetch the mods to throw all this bumph into it's own thread. I just want to discuss CodexL Grey Knights rumours.

The only reason we are arguing about this is that we have no more rumors. Really, when new rumors pop up, people will argue about those.

ChrisWWII wrote:I don't recall the BRB requiring filling an HQ SLOT to be your mandatory HQ. They require an HQ SELECTION. We have a precedent for not HQ slot taking units qualifying at the HQ selection for an army from GW with the Black Templar's Emperor's Champion. I think that justifies using a Priest or Enginseer as the mandatory HQ for an IG army.

Edit:

Please don't start a YMDC thread over rules we're not even 100% sure are final....

Emperors champion specifically states he counts as an HQ selection, IG techpriests, specifically say they don't. You need to fill HQ selections for the requirements, its pretty clear.

Well, I'm going to bump it into just discussing what we know.

Justicar Thawn + termi unit + warding staves. Just how damn irritating will this be to shake off an objective.

"The Emperor's Champion does not use up an HQ slot on a Force Organization chart"

"Techpriest Enginseers do not use up any Force Organization chart selections, but are otherwise treated as separate HQ units."

Sounds the same to me.

gendoikari87 wrote:

Emperors champion specifically states he counts as an HQ selection, IG techpriests, specifically say they don't. You need to fill HQ selections for the requirements, its pretty clear.

Nope. Page 93, Codex: IG. "An Imperial Guard Army may include 0-2 Techpriests. Tehcpriests do not use up any Force Organization Chart Selection, but are otherwise treated as seperate HQ units."

So...uh...where does it say they can't be taken as my one mandatory HQ selection?

Well if they don't take up a slot, do they not count towards FOC selections?

ChrisWWII wrote:

gendoikari87 wrote:

Emperors champion specifically states he counts as an HQ selection, IG techpriests, specifically say they don't. You need to fill HQ selections for the requirements, its pretty clear.

Nope. Page 93, Codex: IG. "An Imperial Guard Army may include 0-2 Techpriests. Tehcpriests do not use up any Force Organization Chart Selection, but are otherwise treated as seperate HQ units."

So...uh...where does it say they can't be taken as my one mandatory HQ selection?

having the units does not meet the requirements it the choices, otherwise a SINGLE IG platoon would be all you needed.

"The Emperor's Champion does not use up an HQ slot on a Force Organization chart"

That's not what you posted earlier

Noisy_Marine wrote:Well if they don't take up a slot, do they not count towards FOC selections?

They can fulfill requirements as they exist as units of that FOC slot, but they do not take up any slots. You can take a techpriest as your only HQ, or you can take 2 commissar lords and a tech priest.

You can take only 2 henchmen squads as your troops, or you can take 2 henchmen squads and 6 grey knight squads. Or 20 henchmen squads and 6 grey knight squads.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

gendoikari87 wrote:having the units does not meet the requirements it the choices, otherwise a SINGLE IG platoon would be all you needed.

Right, units. Units that are selections/slots. Even if or if not they do not expend slots in their taking.

IG platoons are 1 selection/slot. They are multiple units.

Priests are 1 selection/slot and don't expend a slot.

ph34r wrote:

Noisy_Marine wrote:Well if they don't take up a slot, do they not count towards FOC selections?

They can fulfill requirements as they exist as units of that FOC slot, but they do not take up any slots. You can take a techpriest as your only HQ, or you can take 2 commissar lords and a tech priest.

You can take only 2 henchmen squads as your troops, or you can take 2 henchmen squads and 6 grey knight squads. Or 20 henchmen squads and 6 grey knight squads.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

gendoikari87 wrote:having the units does not meet the requirements it the choices, otherwise a SINGLE IG platoon would be all you needed.

Right, units. Units that are selections/slots. Even if or if not they do not expend slots in their taking.

IG platoons are 1 selection/slot. They are multiple units.

Priests are 1 selection/slot and don't expend a slot.

again slots don't really exist at best they are the same as selection, you need to fill the selection, and if it does not take up a selection, then it is not filled, and you need something else to fill it.

The Black Templar codex says that the Emperor's Champion can count as your mandatory HQ selection, so I would assume a similar ruling would carry over.

A priest is a selection, regardless of whether or not it impedes the selection of another unit.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Fafnir wrote:The Black Templar codex says that the Emperor's Champion can count as your mandatory HQ selection, so I would assume a similar ruling would carry over.

Indeed, as is seen in the INAT FAQ, the FAQ most commonly used for independent tournaments across the US.

Honestly, as much as I hate the way it could be exploited (and let's face it, as much as I hate everything in general about the codex so far), I have to agree with ph34r here. The wording says quite clearly that the unit does not take up room on the force orginization chart, and that they can be taken as troops. There's no real way around that until GW releases a FAQ/Errata (which will likely be even longer than the codex itself...).

Fafnir wrote:The Black Templar codex says that the Emperor's Champion can count as your mandatory HQ selection, so I would assume a similar ruling would carry over.

wouldn't that constitute a rule specially for the EC?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

A priest is a selection, regardless of whether or not it impedes the selection of another unit.

um, no it isn't, it specifically states it is not.

Fafnir wrote:Honestly, as much as I hate the way it could be exploited (and let's face it, as much as I hate everything in general about the codex so far), I have to agree with ph34r here. The wording says quite clearly that the unit does not take up room on the force orginization chart, and that they can be taken as troops. There's no real way around that until GW releases a FAQ/Errata (which will likely be even longer than the codex itself...).

I agree that the ramifications of potential abuse of the ability to take infinite henchmen squads (and more specifically infinite transports) is massive. However, INQ players like me still need as many units as they can get to actually have their army exist.

I am praying that GW puts some sort of limit on special weapons for Warrior henchmen, and some sort of limit on the number of dedicated transports you can take for henchmen. Those seem like the major problems.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

A priest is a selection, regardless of whether or not it impedes the selection of another unit.

um, no it isn't, it specifically states it is not.

They don't "use up" selections.