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Ninja'd you by several pages Mrs Stompa!

Indeed! Ages ago actually, but I rarely post.

Would that be because you can't get a word in edgeways?

Chibi Bodge-Battle wrote:
Would that be because you can't get a word in edgeways?

...




I have no idea what you could be talking about...

I reckon Brian Blessed vould crack open a coconut in his mouth
Come to think of he could probably crack open the T rex too

Chibi Bodge-Battle wrote:

I reckon Brian Blessed vould crack open a coconut in his voice
Come to think of he could probably crack open the T rex too

Fix't

Orlanth wrote:
Why do people become Westboro Baptists? Its teachings are diametrically opposed to a lot of what Christianity stands for, the only way you can become one is if you had a sinister agenda - which can account for some - or you had no religious education and fell for vile lies. In all likelihood these lies are compounded by threats of damnation if you did not agree wholeheartedly with everything Phelps says. Phelps congregation had no knowledge ammo to resist, 1)and once someone is in a cult human nature means its very hard for them to leave.


What are scientilogy critics doing when they speak of Xenu? 2) Scientology critics are not in general out to kill the religion, though this may not account for Anonymous now with the 'never forgive, never forget' message, they are out to expose its teaching so that those in the inside understand. Plenty of ex-scientologists practice in the free zone and continue the moral teachings of their faith, but are now empowered against abuse.

We get cults here, but its nothing like the problem you get in the US, 3)and a lack of knowledge is the principle weakness a cult latches onto, that plus personal vulnerability - which is a universal factor, you will always find societal victims to recruit into cults.

Lets put christianity under the same microscope...
1) Once your in christianity, you're told you'll burn in hell if you don't believe, you're told not to question things... seems hard to get out.. fear is a good tool to control people

2) Critics/evolutionists/Atheists aren't trying to kill religion, simply trying to expose its teachings so that those inside understand...

3) Ahem... like lack of understanding of how evolution works? so your cult decides to fight against it?

Seems like you've got some good points... US atheists are just merely trying "to expose how you've been taught so you can understand... "



vs...

frgsinwntr wrote:Seems like you've got some good points... I'm, just merely trying "to expose how you've been taught so you can understand... "

As magnanimous as it is of you to try and deprogram the ignorant...

Based on your post you have a pretty poor understanding of Christian theology. It doesn't seem like you're qualified to be trying to expose what you think is wrong with it.

frgsinwntr wrote:1) Once your in christianity, you're told you'll burn in hell if you don't believe, you're told not to question things... seems hard to get out.. fear is a good tool to control people

First of all, what denomination are you referring to? Secondly, there is actually quite a bit more to it than that.

As for not questioning things, that's particularly misinformed. The Apostle Thomas, (aka Doubting Thomas, aka Saint Thomas) questioned plenty of things. Questioning what you are told by spiritual leaders has scriptural precedent. There's quite a bit in the Bible about false prophets; you're supposed to weigh what a leader is saying and decide if what they're telling you is correct.

Monster Rain wrote:

frgsinwntr wrote:Seems like you've got some good points... I'm, just merely trying "to expose how you've been taught so you can understand... "

As magnanimous as it is of you to try and deprogram the ignorant...

Based on your post you have a pretty poor understanding of Christian theology. It doesn't seem like you're qualified to be trying to expose what you think is wrong with it.

12 years of catholic school under my belt. Try me.

frgsinwntr wrote:

Monster Rain wrote:

frgsinwntr wrote:Seems like you've got some good points... I'm, just merely trying "to expose how you've been taught so you can understand... "

As magnanimous as it is of you to try and deprogram the ignorant...

Based on your post you have a pretty poor understanding of Christian theology. It doesn't seem like you're qualified to be trying to expose what you think is wrong with it.

12 years of catholic school under my belt. Try me.

I did, above. You're fast!

I can't speak to your personal experiences, but your grasp of theology seems shaky based on your posting here. Also, a "cult" is a very specific thing. Broadly applying the term to all religious organizations doesn't help the case that you're trying to make.

Of course T-rex can't put his finger on it...

Do dinosaurs get a mention in Genesis at all?

frgsinwntr wrote:1) Once your in christianity, you're told you'll burn in hell if you don't believe, you're told not to question things... seems hard to get out.. fear is a good tool to control people

First of all, what denomination are you referring to? Secondly, there is actually quite a bit more to it than that.

As for not questioning things, that's particularly misinformed. The Apostle Thomas, (i.e. Doubting Thomas, aka Saint Thomas) questioned plenty of things. Questioning what you are told by spiritual leaders has scriptural precedent. There's quite a bit in the Bible about false prophets; you're supposed to weigh what a leader is saying and decide if what they're telling you is correct.

frgsinwntr wrote:Lets start with your "denomination" argument.

here are the tenents that define christianity as a whole.

1. Jesus Christ is the Only Way to Eternal Salvation With God the Father
2. We Are Saved by Grace Through Faith – Not by Works
3. Jesus Christ is the Son of God
4. The Incarnation of Jesus Christ
5. The Bodily Resurrection of Jesus Christ From the Grave
6. The Ascension of Jesus Christ
7. The Doctrine of the Trinity
8. The Holy Bible is the Inspired and Infallible Word of God
9. We Are Baptized With the Holy Spirit at the Moment of Salvation
10. Regeneration by the Holy Spirit
11. The Doctrine of Hell
12. The 2nd Coming of Jesus Back to our Earth

Let's see... Oh LOOK! #1 there ya go. Next?

I'm sorry, was the divinity of Christ the point of dispute? I thought we were talking about your statement from earlier about hell and whatnot. "Christianity" has many different denominations with varying concepts of hell. The main problem is that you focus on the negative aspects of what you were taught.

frgsinwntr wrote:Well, christianity started as one by their own admittance. They were a fringe group of Roman culture. ALL religions at one time or another are a cult. You don't just wake up one day and everyone is a different religion, it takes time to spread ideas (however wrong they may be). At one time Zoroastrianism was the dominant religion and christianity would be consisdered a cult.

That may be, but nowadays the world "cult" is generally understood to be a reference to a specific type of group with authoritarian mind control practices. There's a difference between a new religious movement and a cult.

I would just like to note that the Roman Catholic Church has the belief that you do need works...the sacraments are important to your spiritual well being.

Monster Rain wrote:Also, a "cult" is a very specific thing.

Not really. Lots of people use the word with great specificity, but they almost never agree with one another; its a pretty complicated idea, and often comes down to mere subjectivity.

Are dinosaurs mentioned in the Bible?

dogma wrote:

Monster Rain wrote:Also, a "cult" is a very specific thing.

Not really. Lots of people use the word with great specificity, but they almost never agree with one another; its a pretty complicated idea, and often comes down to mere subjectivity.

In common usage of the word "cult" it has an implied meaning now.

While there is some debate on exactly what it means there are some points on which most credible sources agree. This is a good example of common themes:

All cults, according to Singer, share three elements: They revolve around charismatic leaders who focus veneration on themselves, rather than on the group's purpose; they employ authoritarian power structures; and they use covert, coordinated forms of thought persuasion in order to gain total control of the lives of their members. As illustration, Dr. Singer contrasts a cult-like organization with the United States Marine Corps-a simple, but effective illustration.

Dugan, Robert D., and Jeffrey M. Beaubien. "Cults in our Midst: The Hidden Menace in our Everyday Lives by Margaret Thaler Singer with Janja Lalich." Personnel Psychology 48.4 (1995): 948. ProQuest. Web. 27 Feb. 2011.

________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

And no, Chibi, Dinosaurs aren't mentioned specifically in the Bible.

Monster Rain wrote:


I'm sorry, was the divinity of Christ the point of dispute? I thought we were talking about your statement from earlier about hell and whatnot. "Christianity" has many different denominations with varying concepts of hell. The main problem is that you focus on the negative aspects of what you were taught.

Dogma covered your cult comment the same way I would.

As for the comment above, I'm pretty sure you misread what I am saying. Read this again.

1. Jesus Christ is the Only Way to Eternal Salvation With God the Father

This is why I said:

frgsinwntr wrote:
1) Once your in christianity, you're told you'll burn in hell if you don't believe, you're told not to question things... seems hard to get out.. fear is a good tool to control people.

Don't try to change my argument to a "divinity" of christ thing. I'm just pointing out that people who try to get out are told they're going to hell.

frgsinwntr wrote:

Monster Rain wrote:


I'm sorry, was the divinity of Christ the point of dispute? I thought we were talking about your statement from earlier about hell and whatnot. "Christianity" has many different denominations with varying concepts of hell. The main problem is that you focus on the negative aspects of what you were taught.

Dogma covered your cult comment the same way I would.

You're both profoundly uninformed on the subject then.

frgsinwntr wrote:As for the comment above, I'm pretty sure you misread what I am saying. Read this again.

1. Jesus Christ is the Only Way to Eternal Salvation With God the Father

This is why I said:

frgsinwntr wrote:
1) Once your in christianity, you're told you'll burn in hell if you don't believe, you're told not to question things... seems hard to get out.. fear is a good tool to control people.

Don't try to change my argument to a "divinity" of christ thing. I'm just pointing out that people who try to get out are told they're going to hell.

lolwhut? You pointed out that people are saved through faith in Jesus Christ as a rebuttal to my statement that different denominations have different views on hell. You should read more slowly.

EDIT:

Maybe we did misunderstand each other. My statement, as noted above, was to say that not all Christian denominations are so big on brimstone.

frgsinwntr wrote:

As for not questioning things, that's particularly misinformed. The Apostle Thomas, (i.e. Doubting Thomas, aka Saint Thomas) questioned plenty of things. Questioning what you are told by spiritual leaders has scriptural precedent. There's quite a bit in the Bible about false prophets; you're supposed to weigh what a leader is saying and decide if what they're telling you is correct.

Yes, but a lot of churches try very hard to not mention that part. Thought begets Heresy.

frgsinwntr wrote:
Lets start with your "denomination" argument.

here are the tenents that define christianity as a whole.

1. Jesus Christ is the Only Way to Eternal Salvation With God the Father
2. We Are Saved by Grace Through Faith – Not by Works
3. Jesus Christ is the Son of God
4. The Incarnation of Jesus Christ
5. The Bodily Resurrection of Jesus Christ From the Grave
6. The Ascension of Jesus Christ
7. The Doctrine of the Trinity
8. The Holy Bible is the Inspired and Infallible Word of God
9. We Are Baptized With the Holy Spirit at the Moment of Salvation
10. Regeneration by the Holy Spirit
11. The Doctrine of Hell
12. The 2nd Coming of Jesus Back to our Earth

Actually, what you're talking about is Paulite Christianity. Christianity itself is merely the following of the teachings of Jesus. (which, are actually quite hard to find amidst all the revisions.) Jesus himself almost seems to downplay his divinity in the Synoptic Gospels, implying that his divinity isn't really what's important. (in several gospels that were 'trimmed' from the bible, it gets even less screen time, so to speak. Gospels where they focused on the teachings of Christ over the Divinity of Christ didn't mesh with the party line well, for some reason. Perhaps his opposition to organized religion made them a sticking point) Only in the canonically questionable Gospel of John (which may have been written three centuries later) does the divinity of Jesus really get hammered.

BaronIveagh wrote:Yes, but a lot of churches try very hard to not mention that part. Thought begets Heresy.

Blessed is the mind too small for doubt.

BaronIveagh wrote:Actually, what you're talking about is Paulite Christianity. Christianity itself is merely the following of the teachings of Christ. (which, are actually quite hard to find amidst all the revisions.)

Oh, all that jibba jabba about loving your neighbor and doing unto others as they do unto you? That's always conveniently forgotten when discussing these matters...

Monster Rain wrote:

frgsinwntr wrote:

Monster Rain wrote:


I'm sorry, was the divinity of Christ the point of dispute? I thought we were talking about your statement from earlier about hell and whatnot. "Christianity" has many different denominations with varying concepts of hell. The main problem is that you focus on the negative aspects of what you were taught.

Dogma covered your cult comment the same way I would.

You're both profoundly uninformed on the subject then.

I guess your just trolling now?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cult read up. I'd say we're very informed.

Monster Rain wrote:

frgsinwntr wrote:As for the comment above, I'm pretty sure you misread what I am saying. Read this again.

1. Jesus Christ is the Only Way to Eternal Salvation With God the Father

This is why I said:

frgsinwntr wrote:
1) Once your in christianity, you're told you'll burn in hell if you don't believe, you're told not to question things... seems hard to get out.. fear is a good tool to control people.

Don't try to change my argument to a "divinity" of christ thing. I'm just pointing out that people who try to get out are told they're going to hell.

lolwhut? You pointed out that people are saved through faith in Jesus Christ as a rebuttal to my statement that different denominations have different views on hell. You should read more slowly.

Let's take a step back here.
1) I post: Once your in christianity, you're told you'll burn in hell if you don't believe, you're told not to question things... seems hard to get out.. fear is a good tool to control people.

You Post: First of all, what denomination are you referring to? Secondly, there is actually quite a bit more to it than that.

I respond (not going to repost all of them) pointing out that ALL christians have the following as the first tennet: Jesus Christ is the Only Way to Eternal Salvation With God the Father. I GUESS I assumed you could understand the fact that Being the "only way" is a method of control through being an authoritarian. Lets look again at that cult thing now that you're brought up to speed? K?

wikipedia wrote:
The word cult pejoratively refers to a group whose beliefs or practices are considered strange.[1] The word originally denoted a system of ritual practices. The narrower, derogatory sense of the word is a product of the 20th century, especially since the 1980s, and is considered subjective. It is also a result of the anti-cult movement which uses the word in reference to groups seen as authoritarian, exploitative and that are believed to use dangerous rituals or mind control. The word implies a group which is a minority in a given society.

The popular, derogatory sense of the word has no currency in academic studies of religions, where "cults" are subsumed under the neutral label of the "new religious movement", while academic sociology has partly adopted the popular meaning of the word.[2][3][4]

Automatically Appended Next Post:

BaronIveagh wrote:

frgsinwntr wrote:

As for not questioning things, that's particularly misinformed. The Apostle Thomas, (i.e. Doubting Thomas, aka Saint Thomas) questioned plenty of things. Questioning what you are told by spiritual leaders has scriptural precedent. There's quite a bit in the Bible about false prophets; you're supposed to weigh what a leader is saying and decide if what they're telling you is correct.

Monster rain said this. Not me


Yes, but a lot of churches try very hard to not mention that part. Thought begets Heresy.

frgsinwntr wrote:
Lets start with your "denomination" argument.

here are the tenents that define christianity as a whole.

1. Jesus Christ is the Only Way to Eternal Salvation With God the Father
2. We Are Saved by Grace Through Faith – Not by Works
3. Jesus Christ is the Son of God
4. The Incarnation of Jesus Christ
5. The Bodily Resurrection of Jesus Christ From the Grave
6. The Ascension of Jesus Christ
7. The Doctrine of the Trinity
8. The Holy Bible is the Inspired and Infallible Word of God
9. We Are Baptized With the Holy Spirit at the Moment of Salvation
10. Regeneration by the Holy Spirit
11. The Doctrine of Hell
12. The 2nd Coming of Jesus Back to our Earth

Actually, what you're talking about is Paulite Christianity. Christianity itself is merely the following of the teachings of Christ. (which, are actually quite hard to find amidst all the revisions.)

I find it very hard to find any christian that would not agree with #1 which is why I picked it out.

frgsinwntr wrote:I guess your just trolling now?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cult read up. I'd say we're very informed.

No, I'm not trolling. If I was, believe me, you'd know.

Yeah, that article completely makes my point about 4 paragraphs down. Look under "Study of Cults." Either way, citing wikipedia isn't the accepted way to prove the truth of something.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

frgsinwntr wrote:Let's take a step back here.
1) I post: Once your in christianity, you're told you'll burn in hell if you don't believe, you're told not to question things... seems hard to get out.. fear is a good tool to control people.

You Post: First of all, what denomination are you referring to? Secondly, there is actually quite a bit more to it than that.

I respond (not going to repost all of them) pointing out that ALL christians have the following as the first tennet: Jesus Christ is the Only Way to Eternal Salvation With God the Father. I GUESS I assumed you could understand the fact that Being the "only way" is a method of control through being an authoritarian. Lets look again at that cult thing now that you're brought up to speed? K?

So you are deliberately missing the point I was making. Good to know.

Monster Rain wrote:

frgsinwntr wrote:I guess your just trolling now?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cult read up. I'd say we're very informed.

No, I'm not trolling. If I was, believe me, you'd know.

Yeah, that article completely makes my point about 4 paragraphs down. Look under "Study of Cults." Either way, citing wikipedia isn't the accepted way to prove the truth of somethin.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

frgsinwntr wrote:Let's take a step back here.
1) I post: Once your in christianity, you're told you'll burn in hell if you don't believe, you're told not to question things... seems hard to get out.. fear is a good tool to control people.

You Post: First of all, what denomination are you referring to? Secondly, there is actually quite a bit more to it than that.

I respond (not going to repost all of them) pointing out that ALL christians have the following as the first tennet: Jesus Christ is the Only Way to Eternal Salvation With God the Father. I GUESS I assumed you could understand the fact that Being the "only way" is a method of control through being an authoritarian. Lets look again at that cult thing now that you're brought up to speed? K?

So you are deliberately missing the point I was making. Good to go.

As far as cherry picking paragraph 4 in one section and ignoring everything that goes before it I guess you're right, I can't seem to win that argument. You clearly found the golden bullet sentence. /sarcasm

No, I countered your point by showing its ALL sects of christianity and not specific to any single denomination. I'm not going to allow you to compartmentalize my argument into a little box where it can be disregarded. My point was that ALL christainity says that.

frgsinwntr wrote:As far as cherry picking paragraph 4 in one section and ignoring everything that goes before it I guess you're right, I can't seem to win that argument. You clearly found the golden bullet sentence. /sarcasm

Don't blame me for your failure to read your ironclad wikipedia proof of your statements, bro. I said there are accepted traits for groups that are characterized as cults. You found an article that pretty much said exactly what I was saying. To summarize, there are a lot of different definitions of a "cult" but there are similarities between groups that are characterized as cults that are recognized by people that are knowledgeable on the subject.

frgsinwntr wrote:No, I countered your point by showing its ALL sects of christianity and not specific to any single denomination. I'm not going to allow you to compartmentalize my argument into a little box where it can be disregarded. My point was that ALL christainity says that.

Says what, exactly?

You realize we aren't going to be able to get past this until you actually respond thoughtfully to a point I've made. That's how a conversation works.

Monster Rain wrote:

Says what, exactly?

You realize we aren't going to be able to get past this until you actually respond thoughtfully to a point I've made. That's how a conversation works.

Sure! now let's clarify your point. Are you saying there are parts of christianity that don't believe jesus is the only way to be saved from hell?

Net fight!

frgsinwntr wrote:
I find it very hard to find any christian that would not agree with #1 which is why I picked it out.

In many early traditions, Jesus does not claim to be the Messiah. Remember that in Aramaic of the period, 'Son of God' meant a righteous person. Not literally a offspring of God.

Further, I'll point out that Enoch supposedly went to Heaven without going through Christ.

BaronIveagh wrote:

frgsinwntr wrote:
I find it very hard to find any christian that would not agree with #1 which is why I picked it out.

In many early traditions, Jesus does not claim to be the Messiah. Remember that in Aramaic of the period, 'Son of God' meant a righteous person. Not literally a offspring of God.

Further, I'll point out that Enoch supposedly went to Heaven without going through Christ.

And these would be considered by monster rains definition to be cults correct?

frgsinwntr wrote:

Monster Rain wrote:

Says what, exactly?

You realize we aren't going to be able to get past this until you actually respond thoughtfully to a point I've made. That's how a conversation works.

Sure! now let's clarify your point. Are you saying there are parts of christianity that don't believe jesus is the only way to be saved from hell?

Well, there actually are people that believe that Jesus is simply their "vehicle to the divine" and that there are other ways to get to heaven. According to Orlanth's post there is actually some basis for that, but it's probably outside the scope of this particular discussion.

What I was saying was that there are Christian sects that don't believe in hell at all, or that grace applies universally even without a profession of faith. My main issue, though, is your representation of Christian theology as "sign up or go to hell. Oh, and do what I say."


Automatically Appended Next Post:

frgsinwntr wrote:

BaronIveagh wrote:

frgsinwntr wrote:
I find it very hard to find any christian that would not agree with #1 which is why I picked it out.

In many early traditions, Jesus does not claim to be the Messiah. Remember that in Aramaic of the period, 'Son of God' meant a righteous person. Not literally a offspring of God.

Further, I'll point out that Enoch supposedly went to Heaven without going through Christ.

And these would be considered by monster rains definition to be cults correct?

I'll answer your question with a question: Does believing in any of these things involve the thought reform that is described in the article you cited?

Also, the apocryphal book of Enoch is referenced in the Book of Jude, which is canon. I always thought that was pretty cool.

Monster Rain wrote:

frgsinwntr wrote:

Monster Rain wrote:

Says what, exactly?

You realize we aren't going to be able to get past this until you actually respond thoughtfully to a point I've made. That's how a conversation works.

Sure! now let's clarify your point. Are you saying there are parts of christianity that don't believe jesus is the only way to be saved from hell?

Well, there actually are people that believe that Jesus is simply their "vehicle to the divine" and that there are other ways to get to heaven. According to Orlanth's post there is actually some basis for that, but it's probably outside the scope of this particular discussion.

What I was saying was that there are Christian sects that don't believe in hell at all, or that grace applies universally even without a profession of faith. My main issue, though, is your representation of Christian theology as "sign up or go to hell. Oh, and do what I say."

So you agree then, that only fringe groups don't follow that tennent? And therefore for the majority Jesus is the only way to be saved (either by being a vehicle or other means)? What happens to you if you're not saved?

frgsinwntr wrote:

BaronIveagh wrote:

frgsinwntr wrote:
I find it very hard to find any christian that would not agree with #1 which is why I picked it out.

In many early traditions, Jesus does not claim to be the Messiah. Remember that in Aramaic of the period, 'Son of God' meant a righteous person. Not literally a offspring of God.

Further, I'll point out that Enoch supposedly went to Heaven without going through Christ.

And these would be considered by monster rains definition to be cults correct?

Technically all of Christianity during the first Century would qualify as a cult under his definition.