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The current rules do him justice just fine. Even in my negative review of the current ‘Chaos’ Codex I still gave credit for creating Abaddon rules that are actually worth a damn and make him out to be the Master of Chaos that he is. He’s no Primarch, he’s Chaos’ Marneus Calgar.

aka_mythos wrote:

chaos0xomega wrote:IMO, the easiest way to do a legion book would be to use a 'mark' system similar to the marks of chaos in the current CSM book, however instead of Mark of Tzeentch, Nurgle, Undivided, etc. they should be Legion 'marks' (need a better name) each one coming with its own special rules/USRs and buffs/debuffs. This way you don't necessarily need to have 9+ unique units in each force org slot. Give HQs added abilities related to force org reshuffling and youre good to go.

That's a really good idea. At the same time I don't think those two types of marks are mutually exclusive. By utilizing one set of legion marks for some units and the god mark for other units they could allow different degrees of use and throttle the advantages. For example Chaos Bikers, while Death Guard might not necessarily have bikers of their own, they'd obviously be inclined to take nurgle worshiping bike mounted legionaries as allies; in that way GW could allow for more varied army composition while constraining them to a theme.

Then thats not a legion book anymore, thats the renegade book we have now.

Well in that case i think they should raise him up a level. Give him primarchesque status as befits him.

In other news, any chance we will be going back to veteran abilities and the old style marks of chaos? My Slaanesh Havocs and Termy chosen aren't the same without Sonic Blasters.

That befits him?

He’s not a Primarch.

I know, he's powerful as hell though. Anyway its just my humble opinion, don't need to agree.

Looking forward to the new codex. Buhbye!

Temujin wrote:One thing that nobody seems to have considered is that Legion marines could have a better basic profile than renegade marines. They are 10,000 year veterans after all. This would differentiate the two codexes and mean that all nine legions would find their home in the new codex.

Dubious on that one. Not all legionnaires from the original 9 are 10K veterans. Hell, even Honsou is a johnny-come-lately.

What those legions definitely DO need is the ability to field really, really badass veteran squads. Less essential but still very thematic would be having veteran CSM as troops, to represent the warbands that really -do- only have their original Heresy membership and no new recruiting. I guess Vets as troops could be unlocked with a special character, but it seems cheesy to require that (but typically current GW design, so whatever).

I for one am looking forward to Nightlord DOA armies that don't have to be counts-as...

Alpharius wrote:

Anung Un Rama wrote:
Here's a thought: Do you think GW would ever go back to the "old" Khorne, which was more about achiving glory in battle or something like that? Never read any fluff about it myself, only heard stories from older gamers.

I wish they would do this - bring back that aspect of Khorne, the "martial pride" theme.

There was a story about a Loyalist Space Marine beating 2 or 3 Berzerkers in HTH and the leader/champion saluted him for his efforts.

Things like that are nice to see, rather than All Who Worship Khorne are maniacs and their only tactic is the headlong charge...

Yes the marine you are talking about here is Ulric the Slayer and this is how he received the moniker "slayer". It was angron who bestowed the nod.

I told this news to my Brother, and he Mangasmed I am sure.

Avrik_Shasla wrote:I told this news to my Brother, and he Mangasmed I am sure.

If everything posted in this thread was true every chaos player would be happy. GW burned us bad with the pile of gak they gave us in 4th edition.

Savnock wrote:

Temujin wrote:One thing that nobody seems to have considered is that Legion marines could have a better basic profile than renegade marines. They are 10,000 year veterans after all. This would differentiate the two codexes and mean that all nine legions would find their home in the new codex.

Dubious on that one. Not all legionnaires from the original 9 are 10K veterans. Hell, even Honsou is a johnny-come-lately.

What those legions definitely DO need is the ability to field really, really badass veteran squads. Less essential but still very thematic would be having veteran CSM as troops, to represent the warbands that really -do- only have their original Heresy membership and no new recruiting. I guess Vets as troops could be unlocked with a special character, but it seems cheesy to require that (but typically current GW design, so whatever).

I for one am looking forward to Nightlord DOA armies that don't have to be counts-as...

Are we talking about Sternguard/Vanguard Veteran type vets or Chosen vets? Personally I'm not opposed to the idea of 2 wound vets... if they are vets of 10k years (which would be a very small select few I'm sure), I feel like that should count for something...

chaos0xomega wrote:

Savnock wrote:

Temujin wrote:One thing that nobody seems to have considered is that Legion marines could have a better basic profile than renegade marines. They are 10,000 year veterans after all. This would differentiate the two codexes and mean that all nine legions would find their home in the new codex.

Dubious on that one. Not all legionnaires from the original 9 are 10K veterans. Hell, even Honsou is a johnny-come-lately.

What those legions definitely DO need is the ability to field really, really badass veteran squads. Less essential but still very thematic would be having veteran CSM as troops, to represent the warbands that really -do- only have their original Heresy membership and no new recruiting. I guess Vets as troops could be unlocked with a special character, but it seems cheesy to require that (but typically current GW design, so whatever).

I for one am looking forward to Nightlord DOA armies that don't have to be counts-as...

Are we talking about Sternguard/Vanguard Veteran type vets or Chosen vets? Personally I'm not opposed to the idea of 2 wound vets... if they are vets of 10k years (which would be a very small select few I'm sure), I feel like that should count for something...

Wasn't it only about 100 years since the heresy for 10th company in Soul Hunter? I'd imagine the remnants of most of the legions would be in a similar situation.

Melissia wrote:

ZacktheChaosChild wrote:I'm still skeptical whether there will be a Legion 'dex.

It fits with rumors I hold..
I just hope the legions codex does not replace the daemons codex.

I do.

aka_mythos wrote:

Anung Un Rama wrote:If there's one thing I didn't like about 3.5 it was how some units couldn't get any marks. I can see why Nurgle Raptors would seem weird (though they would probably look awesome with the old chaos jetpacks) but why shouldn't there be Khorne dedicated jump troops?

I think the restriction was imposed mostly out of balance, but fluff wise both emphasized combat doctrines that couldn't take advantage of it. Death guard preferred all on foot infantry formations of uniformly equipped troops with an emphasis on boarding actions. World Eaters preferred planetary assault by drop pod, rather than jump troops deployed from gunships.

I know they are fluff reasons and I support that. Hell, I field sacred number units, what else can I say on the matter.

But I have this really cool idea for Nurgle Bikes I want to do.

chaos0xomega wrote:

aka_mythos wrote:

chaos0xomega wrote:IMO, the easiest way to do a legion book would be to use a 'mark' system similar to the marks of chaos in the current CSM book, however instead of Mark of Tzeentch, Nurgle, Undivided, etc. they should be Legion 'marks' (need a better name) each one coming with its own special rules/USRs and buffs/debuffs. This way you don't necessarily need to have 9+ unique units in each force org slot. Give HQs added abilities related to force org reshuffling and youre good to go.

That's a really good idea. At the same time I don't think those two types of marks are mutually exclusive. By utilizing one set of legion marks for some units and the god mark for other units they could allow different degrees of use and throttle the advantages. For example Chaos Bikers, while Death Guard might not necessarily have bikers of their own, they'd obviously be inclined to take nurgle worshiping bike mounted legionaries as allies; in that way GW could allow for more varied army composition while constraining them to a theme.

Then thats not a legion book anymore, thats the renegade book we have now.

No there is a difference... though I think that was a bad example. I was trying to say that you have both types of marks in the book available to different units... the distinctions for certain units aren't necessarily so diverse between legions and compounding legion specific rule with special rules of certain units so certain units like Possessed Marines and cultist/mutants might only have the distinction of god marks, while every other unit has legion marks. Otherwise we might end up with Legion mark rules with lots of "except for..." Its more a matter of categorizing certain units as Legion units and others as chaos units.

Well, from what I understand every legion is pretty set in its ways (regarding gods) so god marks would be redundant I think. You're not going to see a Death Guard Legionnaire or an Iron Warrior with the Mark of Tzeentch for example.

sonofruss wrote:

Alpharius wrote:

Anung Un Rama wrote:
Here's a thought: Do you think GW would ever go back to the "old" Khorne, which was more about achiving glory in battle or something like that? Never read any fluff about it myself, only heard stories from older gamers.

I wish they would do this - bring back that aspect of Khorne, the "martial pride" theme.

There was a story about a Loyalist Space Marine beating 2 or 3 Berzerkers in HTH and the leader/champion saluted him for his efforts.

Things like that are nice to see, rather than All Who Worship Khorne are maniacs and their only tactic is the headlong charge...

Yes the marine you are talking about here is Ulric the Slayer and this is how he received the moniker "slayer". It was angron who bestowed the nod.

Pffft. Get this weak gak outta here.

The "really old" Khorne was violent and hated everyone. I'm glad they're heading back in this direction, with the exception of the "headlong charge" part. Khorne doesn't care where the blood flows from, as long as it flows. Hell, the World Eaters used Devastators and they were called the Teeth of Khorne. Khorne gifted his followers (Even ones in warhammer fantasy!) ranged weapons.

So yeah, your Chaos Warriors could be running around with bolters.

I understand why some people want Khorne to go to being more of a Samurai, but it just waters it down for the newbies.

In RoC, under the Khorne section, his "Friends+Enemies" section talks about how a follower of Khorne has no friends-all will be sacrifices to Khorne. Particularly insane World Eaters would commit suicide to offer themselves to the blood god.

I'd just rather that you were able to control your own troops. The only "dynamic" that followers of Khorne require is that they are better than any of the other god's followers at killing, both in close combat AND at ranged. It would be a fun special rule to allow them to shoot into close combat.

I wish they would do this - bring back that aspect of Khorne, the "martial pride" theme.

There was a story about a Loyalist Space Marine beating 2 or 3 Berzerkers in HTH and the leader/champion saluted him for his efforts.

Things like that are nice to see, rather than All Who Worship Khorne are maniacs and their only tactic is the headlong charge...

Uric the Slayer - Space Wolf Special Character. Back when beating up Berzerkers actually meant something because they knew how to fight. Not the pathetic predictable shell of bloodlust that they are now.

I never understood how your followers killing themselves was supposed to be a good thing.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

H.B.M.C. wrote:The current rules do him justice just fine. Even in my negative review of the current ‘Chaos’ Codex I still gave credit for creating Abaddon rules that are actually worth a damn and make him out to be the Master of Chaos that he is. He’s no Primarch, he’s Chaos’ Marneus Calgar.

Nah, if he was Chaos Calgar he'd have some rule that gave friendly units a bonus to morale or extra attacks or something. Abby's more like Calgar lite.

Vladsimpaler wrote:

sonofruss wrote:

Alpharius wrote:

Anung Un Rama wrote:
Here's a thought: Do you think GW would ever go back to the "old" Khorne, which was more about achiving glory in battle or something like that? Never read any fluff about it myself, only heard stories from older gamers.

I wish they would do this - bring back that aspect of Khorne, the "martial pride" theme.

There was a story about a Loyalist Space Marine beating 2 or 3 Berzerkers in HTH and the leader/champion saluted him for his efforts.

Things like that are nice to see, rather than All Who Worship Khorne are maniacs and their only tactic is the headlong charge...

Yes the marine you are talking about here is Ulric the Slayer and this is how he received the moniker "slayer". It was angron who bestowed the nod.

Pffft. Get this weak Gak outta here.

The "really old" Khorne was violent and hated everyone. I'm glad they're heading back in this direction, with the exception of the "headlong charge" part. Khorne doesn't care where the blood flows from, as long as it flows. Hell, the World Eaters used Devastators and they were called the Teeth of Khorne. Khorne gifted his followers (Even ones in warhammer fantasy!) ranged weapons.

So yeah, your Chaos Warriors could be running around with bolters.

I understand why some people want Khorne to go to being more of a Samurai, but it just waters it down for the newbies.

In RoC, under the Khorne section, his "Friends+Enemies" section talks about how a follower of Khorne has no friends-all will be sacrifices to Khorne. Particularly insane World Eaters would commit suicide to offer themselves to the blood god.

I'd just rather that you were able to control your own troops. The only "dynamic" that followers of Khorne require is that they are better than any of the other god's followers at killing, both in close combat AND at ranged. It would be a fun special rule to allow them to shoot into close combat.

Actually I think you might be misunderstanding folks. The use of heavy weapons thing and tactics where in the Slaves of Darkness version of Khorne, and most or the earlier stuff for him. This is what those of us are complaining about want a return to.

The problem with the Khorne cult army in 3rd (4th? I can't remember) was you couldn't access anything with heavy weapons, and if I'm remembering right, units with Bolters they could take had to shift them down to CC and Bolt pistol, and the only special they could take was a Plasma Pistol.

So aye, In essence you are actually asking for what we are anyway. Khorne has always wanted blood, death and destruction, but in older editions his followers wheren't mindless idiots in doing it.

Anung Un Rama wrote:

Melissia wrote:

ZacktheChaosChild wrote:I'm still skeptical whether there will be a Legion 'dex.

It fits with rumors I hold..
I just hope the legions codex does not replace the daemons codex.

I do.

If I have to have a SINGLE whinyboy spiky marine, I will never play Chaos. So if Daemons are removed, screw Chaos.

Melissia wrote:

Anung Un Rama wrote:

Melissia wrote:

ZacktheChaosChild wrote:I'm still skeptical whether there will be a Legion 'dex.

It fits with rumors I hold..
I just hope the legions codex does not replace the daemons codex.

I do.

If I have to have a SINGLE whinyboy spiky marine, I will never play Chaos. So if Daemons are removed, screw Chaos.

Um yeah. Demons got removed. Remember?

No they weren't.

That codex is still perfectly usable, and the only reason why I ever began considering a Chaos army to begin with

ph34r wrote:You say that as if the current 5th edition codexes aren't much worse.

In context with other books at their time of release? No, they're not.

gorgon wrote:Yeah, I think maybe the takeaway at this point is no matter how GW "fixes" CSMs, there are going to be some unhappy players. The resource shortage creates some hard decisions. I suppose the irony is that GW could probably create a SM codex that covers BA and DA and break fewer eggs than what will be required in lumping the very disparate elements of Chaos into a coherent codex or two.

Given that BA/DA have had their own books in every edition with the Codex system, I really doubt this statement - especially given the last BA book. It even makes me look forwards to a 5th ed-style DA book, as long as it isn't Wardian. In contrast, CSM have historically always had one book, and only the v3.5 monstrosity tried to give alternative lists to the Legions - which, given the author, was a huge mistake.

LostSoulCasey'sLaw wrote:Firstly i'm sad that Tau are getting pushed back but meh. More importantly do you think theres any chance Abaddon will get removed? Thats probably controversial but imho any rules that did him justice wouldn't be playable. I think hes far too powerful to have rules for. I say remove him and condemn him to canon, somewhere in between special characters and The Emperor would please me.

The only set of rules that will do him justice are the set where the Chaos Gods finally Spawnify him for his 10,000 years of failure...

Anung Un Rama wrote:If there's one thing I didn't like about 3.5 it was how some units couldn't get any marks. I can see why Nurgle Raptors would seem weird (though they would probably look awesome with the old chaos jetpacks) but why shouldn't there be Khorne dedicated jump troops?

I don't know...Lots of room for 'Lord of the flies' imagery with nurgle-inspired Raptors. Maybe note that they're more focused on spreading nasty plague around and give them an option to take a 'poisoned' flamer or an aura of plague.

Dysartes wrote:

gorgon wrote:Yeah, I think maybe the takeaway at this point is no matter how GW "fixes" CSMs, there are going to be some unhappy players. The resource shortage creates some hard decisions. I suppose the irony is that GW could probably create a SM codex that covers BA and DA and break fewer eggs than what will be required in lumping the very disparate elements of Chaos into a coherent codex or two.

Given that BA/DA have had their own books in every edition with the Codex system, I really doubt this statement - especially given the last BA book. It even makes me look forwards to a 5th ed-style DA book, as long as it isn't Wardian. In contrast, CSM have historically always had one book, and only the v3.5 monstrosity tried to give alternative lists to the Legions - which, given the author, was a huge mistake.

Point isn't about history or what deserves their own codicies (ironically BA and DA did share a codex but not an army list), but that 9 Legion armies in one book requires more consolidation than BA, DA and generics probably would. Even trying to do limited treatments for each Legion can result in a monstrosity very quickly, as you pointed out. BA and DA wouldn't get satisfactory treatments if included a SM codex, but the end result would be a little less monstrous. That's all I'm saying.

Noisy_Marine wrote:I never understood how your followers killing themselves was supposed to be a good thing.

Khorne is fed by acts of violence. Worship is unnecessary, really.

I like the idea that Khorne's portfolio encompasses all sorts of 'super warrior' types from berserkers to master generals. The idea that Khorne might try to corrupt a General by offering even more successes is a neat idea. You want the strength to defeat the next big army? Well you'll need to help your new buddy out a bit... Have the troops wipe this town of civilians off the map. Winning that fight would be for the good of your Emperor, after all...

Melissia wrote:No they weren't.

That codex is still perfectly usable, and the only reason why I ever began considering a Chaos army to begin with

I think we had a misunderstanding there. I want to field a Nurgle Marine army that is able bring Nurgle demons to the table.

Right, Daemons were removed from the CSM codex.. he's not talking about removal of the entire army.

Balance wrote:Khorne is fed by acts of violence. Worship is unnecessary, really.

Not exactly. Orks, for example, don't feed Khorne despite being essentially always violent. They feed Gork and Mork.

Balance wrote:

Anung Un Rama wrote:If there's one thing I didn't like about 3.5 it was how some units couldn't get any marks. I can see why Nurgle Raptors would seem weird (though they would probably look awesome with the old chaos jetpacks) but why shouldn't there be Khorne dedicated jump troops?

I don't know...Lots of room for 'Lord of the flies' imagery with nurgle-inspired Raptors. Maybe note that they're more focused on spreading nasty plague around and give them an option to take a 'poisoned' flamer or an aura of plague.

I actually liked that not all units could take all marks. It really helped make the legions different. It helped show what they focused on and what sort of things each felt was unnecessary. If it did anything, it just helped with diversity. I knew I wouldn't see my exact same EC army across the table only with Marks of Nurgle instead of Slannesh.

It also showed that certain groups within the various forces of Chaos were specific unto themselves - Raptors and Obliterators being the two most obvious ones, with them being described as 'Cults' of their own, which is why there aren't any 'Emperor's Children Raptors' or 'World Eater Obliterators'. It also showed combat doctrine, as has been mentioned above.

That said, some freedom could be opened up for Chosen units (such as a World Eater Chosen unit having access to Jump Packs).