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 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 Necroshea wrote:
Blood tide was just a terrible concept. Sisters, who had a member fall to chaos, are used to sanctify GK, whom have never fallen to chaos. Because that makes sense.

As it's been said before, Ward doesn't write fluff, he writes fan fiction.

Grey Knights have never been immune to getting killed by Chaos-related stuff. This is probably the umpteenth time this has been pointed out, and it's going to be the umpteenth time it's ignored because people want to rage against Ward.

I like how you ignore what I posted then tried to make a point about people ignoring things, then claimed I was raging. That's cute.

 Necroshea wrote:
Blood tide was just a terrible concept. Sisters, who had a member fall to chaos, are used to sanctify GK, whom have never fallen to chaos. Because that makes sense.

As it's been said before, Ward doesn't write fluff, he writes fan fiction.

That's kinda my point. It doesn't make any sense, except to show how things in the 41st Millennium don't make any sense.

If it's just to show how far Grey Knights are willing to go to preserve their incorruptibility... Well, there's only one possible reason to kill them, and that is their whole "eliminate witnesses" thing, which would mean that they believe that Sisters of Battle are expendable, invaluable assets to the Imperium, seeing as non-GK loyalist Marines are extended the courtesy of not being murdered/mindwiped purely because of their value to the Imperium as a military asset. They doubly consider them useless in this case, because they didn't even ask them to help them fight the demon like they might use an Imperial Guard force before murdering/mindwiping them all.

Because if all they needed was a bit of blood for a few dabs here and there, they don't have to kill them. I'm sure Sororitas carry combat knives - or hell, those bayonet things that are no longer available as a wargear option - that would do the trick in a hurry if waiting for a proper syringe takes too long. I'm sure a Sororitas would have seen the devastation, seen Space Marine reinforcements, heard their unusual but harmless request, and hell, why not?

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

Grey Knights have never been immune to getting killed by Chaos-related stuff. This is probably the umpteenth time this has been pointed out, and it's going to be the umpteenth time it's ignored because people want to rage against Ward.

Grey Knights have never been "immune" to anything.

The exact words of the Codex are

"In all the Chapter's long history, no Grey Knight has ever fallen to the lure of Chaos, and none shall do so now. The Grey Knights fight on.."

There is no "magic-chaos-does-not-stick-varnish" to their armour. Grey Knights are not - per se - any more or less "immune" than.. say.. Astral Claws or Soul Drinker Space Marine. There is no in-build immunity. Indeed, if there were, the whole achievement of "no Grey Knight has ever fallen" wouldn't be a noteworthy achievement, or would it? There is nothing preventing the first Grey Knight going off "tomorrow" to become a Daemon Prince or whatnot.

The only thing that "makes it so", what sets Grey Knights apart is their rigorous vigilance and willingness to go further than anyone else in ensuring no GK stumbles. The Blood Tide is an illustration of that.

 Zweischneid wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

Grey Knights have never been immune to getting killed by Chaos-related stuff. This is probably the umpteenth time this has been pointed out, and it's going to be the umpteenth time it's ignored because people want to rage against Ward.

Grey Knights have never been "immune" to anything.

The exact words of the Codex are

"In all the Chapter's long history, no Grey Knight has ever fallen to the lure of Chaos, and none shall do so now. The Grey Knights fight on.."

There is no "magic-chaos-does-not-stick-varnish" to their armour. Grey Knights are not - per se - any more or less "immune" than.. say.. Astral Claws or Soul Drinker Space Marine. There is no in-build immunity. Indeed, if there were, the whole achievement of "no Grey Knight has ever fallen" wouldn't be a noteworthy achievement, or would it? There is nothing preventing the first Grey Knight going off "tomorrow" to become a Daemon Prince or whatnot.

The only thing that "makes it so", what sets Grey Knights apart is their rigorous vigilance and willingness to go further than anyone else in ensuring no GK stumbles. The Blood Tide is an illustration of that.

The Astral Claws would eventually turn to Chaos as a majority, and several Soul Drinkers would become Chaos marines.

Zweischneid wrote:

If other authors write fluff just as bad, there is no need to single out Mat Ward.

If it were just one book, I'd agree. However with Ward it's consistent on every release, Kelly's only bad book fluffwise was Space Wolves. It's the consistency that earns Ward that hate he gets.

As for the Necron/Eldar thing, the Blood Angel story specifically mentioned the "enigmatic Silent King" as the key-Necron personality in the decision. No Omnicidal automotons anywhere.

At the time that meant squat, even Necron Lords were still largely slaves to the will of the C'tan.

And it was a temporary battle-field alliance demanded by circumstances (a massive Tyranid attack)

At a time when the Necrons wouldn't see any difference between the SM's or the Tyranids.

The Eldar were simply welcome into the most sacred hall of the Space Wolves, partaking in sacred Space Marine burial rituals, having lots of drink, etc..,

Again, yes, silly, won't argue that. The SW book was atrocious. That said, we have other books where the Eldar are consulted in close quarters with Imperial authorities as well, such as the book Shadow Point.

when on the very same page the Wolves shoot (unprovoked) the Sisters out of the sky for daring to fly too close to the Fenris system.

Forgot about that, but again, they'd had a war with them, and shot them down in a territorial dispute when the ecclisiarchy comes in to investigate their beliefs, *completely* different than butchering allies to use blood for a ritual.

Vaktathi wrote:

One is fighting the Imperium's/Grey Knights arch-enemies, the Daemons of Chaos, in a typical Imperial "the-end-justifies-the-means" story. The very same story also exemplifies why the Grey Knights, among all the factions and sub-groups of the Imperium, are the only one who have (by both the old Codex and the new) never seen one of their members fall to Chaos. The extremes to which they go provides grim-dark substance to that particular ruthless vigilance of the Grey Knights that was sorely missing in Codex: Daemonhunters, where it was simple a fiat-writer statement without context.

I get that, really I do. That doesn't mean it's a good story or that it fits thematically with the vision of the faction. It's a *bad* way or portraying that aspect. There are plenty of ways that can, and has, been shown before. Destroying allies to prevent spread of corruption, leaving them to die while they go on to accomplish another task, etc. Killing them to annoint themselves in the blood of their allies is textbook Khornate behavior.

And there is no "theological war with the Ecclesiarchy"

Look up Cardinal Bucharis and the Sisters of Battle fluff, the Ecclesiarchy waged a full scale war against the Space Wolves during the Age of Apostasy under Cardinal Bucharis.

except for the one that Space Wolves started by surprise-attacking the Ecclesiary for flying too close (while, on the same page, having no objection to Eldar doing merry-go-rounds with them in the Great Hall of Fenris.

IIRC they were coming to look into the SW's supposedly heretical beliefs, not just because they were too close (don't have the book in front of me though).

 blood reaper wrote:


The Astral Claws would eventually turn to Chaos as a majority, and several Soul Drinkers would become Chaos marines.

Yup.

And it "could" happen to Grey Knights too (just as it could happen to any other Space Marine Chapter) if their vigilance slips.

The only thing that sets the Grey Knights apart, that which makes them "different" from Astral Claws, is that they go to far more extreme ends to prevent corruption. This is illustrated in the book by the Blood Tide story.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 Necroshea wrote:
Blood tide was just a terrible concept. Sisters, who had a member fall to chaos, are used to sanctify GK, whom have never fallen to chaos. Because that makes sense.

As it's been said before, Ward doesn't write fluff, he writes fan fiction.

Grey Knights have never been immune to getting killed by Chaos-related stuff. This is probably the umpteenth time this has been pointed out, and it's going to be the umpteenth time it's ignored because people want to rage against Ward.

But then wouldn't it make a lot of sense, assuming that a Sister of Battle's body is physically resistant to Chaos, to obtain skin samples from the most pure Sororitas, and clone the hell out of them (the skin samples) to make a Sororitas-skin layer for their armor?

Skin's just as good as blood at preventing physical Chaos corruption, right? And if it's not, surely a full layer integrated into the other layers of the suit would be more protective than a few drops.

Or hell, have a blood drive every month for Sororitas only, if it only works with blood, and distribute it in small, sturdy vials in case the need comes up in a similar future situation.

 Zweischneid wrote:

 blood reaper wrote:


The Astral Claws would eventually turn to Chaos as a majority, and several Soul Drinkers would become Chaos marines.

Yup.

And it "could" happen to Grey Knights too (just as it could happen to any other Space Marine Chapter) if their vigilance slips.

The only thing that sets the Grey Knights apart, that which makes them "different" from Astral Claws, is that they go to far more extreme ends to prevent corruption. This is illustrated in the book by the Blood Tide story.

However, the Astral Claws are renegades along with the Soul Drinkers, not Grey Knights.

Lexicanum wrote: Thusly armoured, a Grey Knight's presence becomes unpalatable to Daemons, making him immune to corruption,

Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Pouncey wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 Necroshea wrote:
Blood tide was just a terrible concept. Sisters, who had a member fall to chaos, are used to sanctify GK, whom have never fallen to chaos. Because that makes sense.

As it's been said before, Ward doesn't write fluff, he writes fan fiction.

Grey Knights have never been immune to getting killed by Chaos-related stuff. This is probably the umpteenth time this has been pointed out, and it's going to be the umpteenth time it's ignored because people want to rage against Ward.

But then wouldn't it make a lot of sense, assuming that a Sister of Battle's body is physically resistant to Chaos, to obtain skin samples from the most pure Sororitas, and clone the hell out of them (the skin samples) to make a Sororitas-skin layer for their armor?

Skin's just as good as blood at preventing physical Chaos corruption, right? And if it's not, surely a full layer integrated into the other layers of the suit would be more protective than a few drops.

Or hell, have a blood drive every month for Sororitas only, if it only works with blood, and distribute it in small, sturdy vials in case the need comes up in a similar future situation.

It's a 25 points upgrade for Codex: Khorne Knights. They all have preferred enemy and hatred "Sisters of Battle".

 Zweischneid wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

Grey Knights have never been immune to getting killed by Chaos-related stuff. This is probably the umpteenth time this has been pointed out, and it's going to be the umpteenth time it's ignored because people want to rage against Ward.

Grey Knights have never been "immune" to anything.

The exact words of the Codex are

"In all the Chapter's long history, no Grey Knight has ever fallen to the lure of Chaos, and none shall do so now. The Grey Knights fight on.."

There is no "magic-chaos-does-not-stick-varnish" to their armour. Grey Knights are not - per se - any more or less "immune" than.. say.. Astral Claws or Soul Drinker Space Marine. There is no in-build immunity. Indeed, if there were, the whole achievement of "no Grey Knight has ever fallen" wouldn't be a noteworthy achievement, or would it? There is nothing preventing the first Grey Knight going off "tomorrow" to become a Daemon Prince or whatnot.

The only thing that "makes it so", what sets Grey Knights apart is their rigorous vigilance and willingness to go further than anyone else in ensuring no GK stumbles. The Blood Tide is an illustration of that.

Okay. So they need Sisters of Battle blood... And they had to kill the Sororitas to get it?

Again, why not a syringe, or a knife or sarissa or anything? Why kill them when they don't have to in order to attain what they need?

 Pouncey wrote:

 Zweischneid wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

Grey Knights have never been immune to getting killed by Chaos-related stuff. This is probably the umpteenth time this has been pointed out, and it's going to be the umpteenth time it's ignored because people want to rage against Ward.

Grey Knights have never been "immune" to anything.

The exact words of the Codex are

"In all the Chapter's long history, no Grey Knight has ever fallen to the lure of Chaos, and none shall do so now. The Grey Knights fight on.."

There is no "magic-chaos-does-not-stick-varnish" to their armour. Grey Knights are not - per se - any more or less "immune" than.. say.. Astral Claws or Soul Drinker Space Marine. There is no in-build immunity. Indeed, if there were, the whole achievement of "no Grey Knight has ever fallen" wouldn't be a noteworthy achievement, or would it? There is nothing preventing the first Grey Knight going off "tomorrow" to become a Daemon Prince or whatnot.

The only thing that "makes it so", what sets Grey Knights apart is their rigorous vigilance and willingness to go further than anyone else in ensuring no GK stumbles. The Blood Tide is an illustration of that.

Okay. So they need Sisters of Battle blood... And they had to kill the Sororitas to get it?

Again, why not a syringe, or a knife or sarissa or anything? Why kill them when they don't have to in order to attain what they need?

Also, wouldn't the Ageis Armour be liquid proof? And the psychic protection could easily deter the corrupted blood.... Grey Knights have apothecaries, who would have syringes.....

Wait, how does the sister blood protect against the corrupt blood? If the sisters are corrupted by the blood with such ease, then what's the point painting the armour with the blood? It won't do anything!

 Pouncey wrote:
Or hell, have a blood drive every month for Sororitas only, if it only works with blood, and distribute it in small, sturdy vials in case the need comes up in a similar future situation.

This needs to be made into a picture. Like, now. Soritas blood bank, sisters walking out of the building while grey knights are loading up the blood samples into cargo ships, with a big banner above the building entrance saying "donate blood today, avoid having it harvested tomorrow!"

 blood reaper wrote:

 Pouncey wrote:

 Zweischneid wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

Grey Knights have never been immune to getting killed by Chaos-related stuff. This is probably the umpteenth time this has been pointed out, and it's going to be the umpteenth time it's ignored because people want to rage against Ward.

Grey Knights have never been "immune" to anything.

The exact words of the Codex are

"In all the Chapter's long history, no Grey Knight has ever fallen to the lure of Chaos, and none shall do so now. The Grey Knights fight on.."

There is no "magic-chaos-does-not-stick-varnish" to their armour. Grey Knights are not - per se - any more or less "immune" than.. say.. Astral Claws or Soul Drinker Space Marine. There is no in-build immunity. Indeed, if there were, the whole achievement of "no Grey Knight has ever fallen" wouldn't be a noteworthy achievement, or would it? There is nothing preventing the first Grey Knight going off "tomorrow" to become a Daemon Prince or whatnot.

The only thing that "makes it so", what sets Grey Knights apart is their rigorous vigilance and willingness to go further than anyone else in ensuring no GK stumbles. The Blood Tide is an illustration of that.

Okay. So they need Sisters of Battle blood... And they had to kill the Sororitas to get it?

Again, why not a syringe, or a knife or sarissa or anything? Why kill them when they don't have to in order to attain what they need?

Also, wouldn't the Ageis Armour be liquid proof? And the psychic protection could easily deter the corrupted blood.... Grey Knights have apothecaries, who would have syringes.....

Wait, how does the sister blood protect against the corrupt blood? If the sisters are corrupted by the blood with such ease, then what's the point painting the armour with the blood? It won't do anything!

My thinking is that it's the Sister's faith that protects them, not their blood itself. If so, the blood is completely useless without the Sister's faith to empower the flesh.

If the Sister's faith over a lifetime has left her with magical properties, there's no need to kill them for the blood. The Sororitas likely have combat knives that would to the trick in a pinch, particularly since the GK were just taking a bit and using it in a mixture. And I can't imagine they'd say no.

So why would the Grey Knights go to such lengths as to kill them before attaining their blood? Again, the only plausible reason I can think of is that they were getting their "eliminate witnesses" thing out of the way early, which means that they believe the Sisters of Battle are redundantly expendable. First because loyalist Marines are spared the murder/mindwipe for being so valuable, and the Sisters were not. Second because the Grey Knights did it before the battle, instead of using any aid the Sororitas could provide - every bolter shell they can fire counts, and every one that dies is a bullet or force weapon strike that the GKs don't need to do later.

So either the Grey Knights are acting completely stupidly, which would support the story being written as a showcase to how backwards and screwed up even the Grey Knights are.

Or Grey Knights consider Sisters of Battle to be completely useless in a fight (maybe just that particular fight, though).

Wouldn't the Grey Knights have such faith as well?

Or did Matt forget this?

 blood reaper wrote:
Wouldn't the Grey Knights have such faith as well?

Or did Matt forget this?

The faith of space marines is quite different from the faith of Sisters of Battle and pious humans.

 blood reaper wrote:
Wouldn't the Grey Knights have such faith as well?

Or did Matt forget this?

Pretty sure Grey Knights aren't nearly as pious as the Sororitas are. Sororitas are powerful enough in their faith that it often manifests itself on the battlefield in the form of minor miracles. Grey Knights train pretty much exclusively to fight Daemons, so they steel their minds to the "temptations of the warp", and their armor has layers and layers of anti-daemon stuff in it, to the point where daemons feel pain if they get close enough to a Grey Knight.

In the Blood Tide story, though, it's such an insanely powerful daemon that it pretty much wiped out... was it all the settlements or the whole planet? apart from the Sisters of Battle, by itself. So naturally there was some cause for concern against a daemon of that magnitude.

 pretre wrote:

 blood reaper wrote:
Wouldn't the Grey Knights have such faith as well?

Or did Matt forget this?

The faith of space marines is quite different from the faith of Sisters of Battle and pious humans.

Wouldn't it still be effective against the daemon bloods power?

Matt Ward's fluff is his problem imho,

as an example he changed the C'tan from almost omnipotent, incredibly dangerous ancient entities existing since the dawn of time into BLOODY POKEMON!

 blood reaper wrote:


Wouldn't it still be effective against the daemon bloods power?

Historically, Space Marines don't have faith as such. They see the Emperor as a very strong and powerful man who they revere. Faith implies a lack of knowledge. Space Marines KNOW no fear because of their training. Sisters have faith that the emperor will deliver them but still feel fear.

Sisters have the ability to do miraculous things through will and faith alone.
Space Marines have the ability to do miraculous things through training and biochemistry/enhancement.

Will and faith are proven safeguards against the warp.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Daedricbob wrote:
Matt Ward's fluff is his problem imho,

as an example he changed the C'tan from almost omnipotent, incredibly dangerous ancient entities existing since the dawn of time into BLOODY POKEMON!

 blood reaper wrote:

 pretre wrote:

 blood reaper wrote:
Wouldn't the Grey Knights have such faith as well?

Or did Matt forget this?

The faith of space marines is quite different from the faith of Sisters of Battle and pious humans.

Wouldn't it still be effective against the daemon bloods power?

Not really. Grey Knights rely on their intricate armor for physical protection from daemons. Their faith doesn't grant them any supernatural abilities - for GK, it's all training, gear, skill, and luck.

And for mental protection, see the post above mine. ^^

 pretre wrote:

 blood reaper wrote:


Wouldn't it still be effective against the daemon bloods power?

Historically, Space Marines don't have faith as such. They see the Emperor as a very strong and powerful man who they revere. Faith implies a lack of knowledge. Space Marines KNOW no fear because of their training. Sisters have faith that the emperor will deliver them but still feel fear.

Sisters have the ability to do miraculous things through will and faith alone.
Space Marines have the ability to do miraculous things through training and biochemistry/enhancement.

Will and faith are proven safeguards against the warp.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Daedricbob wrote:
Matt Ward's fluff is his problem imho,

as an example he changed the C'tan from almost omnipotent, incredibly dangerous ancient entities existing since the dawn of time into BLOODY POKEMON!

Well, I was really talking about the combined faith of the Grey knights and the power of the Ageis, which helps to deter daemons. I don't know what the Sister blood would have exactly done to help, I mean, if it corrupted the other Sisters who would have been just as "faithful" then how would it assist the Knights at all?

Now, I'm just curious, is it not possible the sisters just have later psyker abilities that manifest in response to their extreme emotional states? As in when they get all caught up in prayer in the middle of a battle?

 Necroshea wrote:
Now, I'm just curious, is it not possible the sisters just have later psyker abilities that manifest in response to their extreme emotional states? As in when they get all caught up in prayer in the middle of a battle?

Like the Ork's latent abilities?

blood reaper wrote:Well, I was really talking about the combined faith of the Grey knights and the power of the Ageis, which helps to deter daemons. I don't know what the Sister blood would have exactly done to help, I mean, if it corrupted the other Sisters who would have been just as "faithful" then how would it assist the Knights at all?

The aegis is powered by technology and psychic power. It is a bit different than faith. Sisters blood helped (with the proper oils, etc) to fuel a more powerful defense (probably something to do with enhancing the aegis)

Necroshea wrote:Now, I'm just curious, is it not possible the sisters just have later psyker abilities that manifest in response to their extreme emotional states? As in when they get all caught up in prayer in the middle of a battle?

Faith has been specifically said not to be psychic in nature in almost every book that the SoB have had. The best theory that I have heard is that it is by pure will and not 'divine 40k magic'.

 Necroshea wrote:
Now, I'm just curious, is it not possible the sisters just have later psyker abilities that manifest in response to their extreme emotional states? As in when they get all caught up in prayer in the middle of a battle?

No.

In game terms, and in fluff terms, there's no psyker abilities at all amongst the Sororitas.

Besides which, psykers who could survive a direct meltagun hit and come out unscathed, or put an armored fist through a suit of Terminator armor like it was butter, generally they get snatched up by the Black Ships. Or whatever organization it is that grades psykers.

But why? The Ageis already deters the daemons power, so "enchanting" it would be pointless, and how does it really enchant it?

I think the problem with Bloodtide that people don't get is that GK would skin their own grandmother alive to defeat daemons.

They show up on the bloodtide planet, hours until it is consumed. They see that 99% of the populace is dead. They will have to purge the other 1% for the possibility of daemonic infection when they are done.

They know that the bloodtide will probably overcome them. They say 'Hey, you remember page 102 of the GK handbook that says we can use a certain combination of ingredients to enhance the Aegis?' 'Yeah, but where are we going to get virgin blood at a time like this?'

The whole point of the GK fluff since at least Index Astartes has been that they use the tools of the enemy to fight the enemy. They will do anything to safeguard the Imperium from the Daemonic.

I love how this is always taken as such a strange thing for them to do when they have been known to destroy entire planetary populations if necessary.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 blood reaper wrote:
But why? The Ageis already deters the daemons power, so "enchanting" it would be pointless, and how does it really enchant it?

The Aegis is not invulnerable to psychic or warp energy. It is just another type of armor. It relies on technology and mysticism to protect the wearer. Sufficiently powerful psychic/warp energy easily penetrates the Aegis. The Bloodtide was powerful enough to easily penetrate it. They used a ritual to enhance it to protect them.

 Pouncey wrote:


Okay. So they need Sisters of Battle blood... And they had to kill the Sororitas to get it?

Again, why not a syringe, or a knife or sarissa or anything? Why kill them when they don't have to in order to attain what they need?

Why chainswords and exploding bolts and lighting claws to rip a foe apart?

Really, it's not an exercise in anti-Chaos alchemy. It's a demonstration of an ultimate-grim-dark-means-justify-the-ends. Syringes wouldn't fit the overall 40K theme, nor the moral of that particular story.

 Zweischneid wrote:
Really, it's not an exercise in anti-Chaos alchemy. It's a demonstration of an ultimate-grim-dark-means-justify-the-ends. Syringes wouldn't fit the overall 40K theme, nor the moral of that particular story.

There was time pressure as well.

 pretre wrote:
I think the problem with Bloodtide that people don't get is that GK would skin their own grandmother alive to defeat daemons.

They show up on the bloodtide planet, hours until it is consumed. They see that 99% of the populace is dead. They will have to purge the other 1% for the possibility of daemonic infection when they are done.

They know that the bloodtide will probably overcome them. They say 'Hey, you remember page 102 of the GK handbook that says we can use a certain combination of ingredients to enhance the Aegis?' 'Yeah, but where are we going to get virgin blood at a time like this?'

The whole point of the GK fluff since at least Index Astartes has been that they use the tools of the enemy to fight the enemy. They will do anything to safeguard the Imperium from the Daemonic.

I love how this is always taken as such a strange thing for them to do when they have been known to destroy entire planetary populations if necessary.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 blood reaper wrote:
But why? The Ageis already deters the daemons power, so "enchanting" it would be pointless, and how does it really enchant it?

The Aegis is not invulnerable to psychic or warp energy. It is just another type of armor. It relies on technology and mysticism to protect the wearer. Sufficiently powerful psychic/warp energy easily penetrates the Aegis. The Bloodtide was powerful enough to easily penetrate it. They used a ritual to enhance it to protect them.

Makes a lot more sense now, thanks. ^^

To be honest, I didn't know the planet was gonna go under entirely in that short a timeframe, even if they succeeded. I had assumed that once they killed/banished/whatever the daemon, it would go away and things would slowly return to normal. With that kind of timeframe, yeah, efficiency would be key. I also had assumed that it had to be Sororitas blood specifically, and also that they'd basically made up the ritual as they were going along.

So yup, that makes MUCH more sense.

Many things make a lot more sense when you read them.