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I don't think he'll get convicted, but there was absolutely sufficient grounds to charge him on the night of. The things that hurt the case came from interviews that weren't even MADE until after they had already decided not to charge him.

I'm getting the perception the detective likes the defense better then prosecution. Defense literally went over the entire police procedure on him handling info of witness's and shooter. Now the word "Pristine" is stuck in everyone head. Its funny how they handling or labeling that Z might have PTSD now

 Rented Tritium wrote:
I don't think he'll get convicted, but there was absolutely sufficient grounds to charge him on the night of. The things that hurt the case came from interviews that weren't even MADE until after they had already decided not to charge him.

Charge him with what? Remember SYG is also applicable here. They may not be able to even arrest him based on that.

 Rented Tritium wrote:
As long as you're actively trying to paint me as a reactionary arguing about race, I have no reason to engage with you. I'm on the record on these forums as being HIGHLY pro-police, thanks.

No, I just honestly don't see how you can make some of the statements that you have unless you're operating from a point of NSA-like superior information to the various professionals who reviewed the facts available and made the initial call that they did.

 Rented Tritium wrote:
I don't think he'll get convicted, but there was absolutely sufficient grounds to charge him on the night of. The things that hurt the case came from interviews that weren't even MADE until after they had already decided not to charge him.

The original DA would seem to disagree with you. And the facts as they are emerging seems to be supporting his position.

I am loving the social media outbursts from this

Hotsauce....how can you leave us hanging like that.....post some

If i knew how I would.

 Jihadin wrote:
Hotsauce....how can you leave us hanging like that.....post some

"Again, some white people saying this wasnt a racial case. People who have NEVR experiencd racial profilng wld blieve that"

"Only in racist America can a murderer do a walk thru at the crime scene the next day."

"Z might beat tht charge after grass stain evidence on Trayvons jeans come into play! George provoked trayvon & ery1 know it!"

"If trayvon did what zimmerman did. trayvon would be sitting in a jail right now . The justice system is no good"

"if your not convinced Mr Z is innocent by now you must be black "

"Zimmerman was the guy that was strapped, then meekly & humbly as he can, tells po po he was scared in the interview.... LOL."

"According to Zimmerman, #Trayvon went for his gun... Wait a minute! How would Trayvon have known Zimmerman had a gun on him? ".

I hate Twitter.

At times I'm glad I have a flat demeaner...those twitter tweets are a bit funny IMO I say Z is guilty but Prosecution just ate up from the floor up like a soup sandwich I would love to see Prosecution resumes for their jobs and reverify their education does not look it came from a cereal box

Z has to live with himself knowing he killed a kid. Just not in General Population

I do think that the "this is all about race" crowd is just as wrong as the "race didn't have anything to do with this" crowd.

Race is always a factor, and to think that we are past that as a society is naive. That doesn't mean that it is the only factor, or even a major factor. But race still contributes to situations like this.

 d-usa wrote:
Race is always a factor, and to think that we are past that as a society is naive. That doesn't mean that it is the only factor, or even a major factor. But race still contributes to situations like this.

Can't someone just kill someone these days without being called a racist?

 Gentleman_Jellyfish wrote:

 d-usa wrote:
Race is always a factor, and to think that we are past that as a society is naive. That doesn't mean that it is the only factor, or even a major factor. But race still contributes to situations like this.

Can't someone just kill someone these days without being called a racist?

Race can be a factor in deciding to follow him, but doesn't have to be.
Race can be a factor in the killing, but doesn't have to be.
Race can be a factor in the investigation, but doesn't have to be.
Race can be a factor in deciding to press charged, but doesn't have to be.
Race can be a factor in the news coverage, but doesn't have to be.
Race can be a factor in jury selection, but doesn't have to be.
Race can be a factor in the jury decision, but doesn't have to be.
Race can be a factor in the sentencing by the judge or jury, but doesn't have to be.

Etc, etc, etc.

It doesn't have to be a major factor, or a concious bias by any specific person. But it is usually still there.

That is what i do not get about hate crimes. If im white and i kill another white guy because he slept with my daughter, that means i hate him, but no hate crime.
But if i kill a black guy i get charged with a hate crime?

 hotsauceman1 wrote:
That is what i do not get about hate crimes. If im white and i kill another white guy because he slept with my daughter, that means i hate him, but no hate crime.
But if i kill a black guy i get charged with a hate crime?

Your own question answers it pretty well actually.

Interracial killings don't automatically become a hate-crime either.

 djones520 wrote:
I saw they had a voice analysis expert as a witness today. What was up with that, I thought the judge ruled they weren't allowed to do that?

The judge barred experts from testifying as to who's voice was calling for help in the call recording because they couldn't agree. Other experts I think were always going to testify about other things.

 LordofHats wrote:

 djones520 wrote:
I saw they had a voice analysis expert as a witness today. What was up with that, I thought the judge ruled they weren't allowed to do that?

The judge barred experts from testifying as to who's voice was calling for help in the call recording because they couldn't agree. Other experts I think were always going to testify about other things.

Seems like the plan was "if we can't get experts to say 'it was M', then we can try to get expert to back up the family testimony that it was M". Not sure how successful they were with that based on the cross.

 d-usa wrote:
I do think that the "this is all about race" crowd is just as wrong as the "race didn't have anything to do with this" crowd.

Race is always a factor, and to think that we are past that as a society is naive. That doesn't mean that it is the only factor, or even a major factor. But race still contributes to situations like this.

I'd say that the biggest part race played in this was from Trayvon's point of view. Unless you buy the idea that "creepy ass cracka" is a common saying, and not meant to be derogatory at all.

I have my own opinion about how and why this happened, but I don't think much good will come of voicing it right now.

But did Z follow every white kid that roamed the neighborhood? Both Z and M are a good example that race relations are not the utopia that some people like to prevent they are.

I don't think that race, on either side, is the reason for a dead kid and the current trial. But race is weaved in threads throughout this story, contributing here and there to the fabric of this whole event. Ignoring it would be unwise, but claiming that it is the biggest part of the fabric is unwise as well.

 d-usa wrote:
Race can be a factor in deciding to follow him, but doesn't have to be.
Race can be a factor in the killing, but doesn't have to be.
Race can be a factor in the investigation, but doesn't have to be.
Race can be a factor in deciding to press charged, but doesn't have to be.
Race can be a factor in the news coverage, but doesn't have to be.
Race can be a factor in jury selection, but doesn't have to be.
Race can be a factor in the jury decision, but doesn't have to be.
Race can be a factor in the sentencing by the judge or jury, but doesn't have to be.

Etc, etc, etc.

It doesn't have to be a major factor, or a concious bias by any specific person. But it is usually still there.

So even when someone is not being racist, there is still racism there folks

 Dreadclaw69 wrote:

 d-usa wrote:
Race can be a factor in deciding to follow him, but doesn't have to be.
Race can be a factor in the killing, but doesn't have to be.
Race can be a factor in the investigation, but doesn't have to be.
Race can be a factor in deciding to press charged, but doesn't have to be.
Race can be a factor in the news coverage, but doesn't have to be.
Race can be a factor in jury selection, but doesn't have to be.
Race can be a factor in the jury decision, but doesn't have to be.
Race can be a factor in the sentencing by the judge or jury, but doesn't have to be.

Etc, etc, etc.

It doesn't have to be a major factor, or a concious bias by any specific person. But it is usually still there.

So even when someone is not being racist, there is still racism there folks

There is a difference between somebody doing something because they are racist or something happening because of an unconscious racial bias. Sometimes something happens because somebody is making a conscious effort to not be racist, and ends up in the opposite end and expressing a favorable bias. You can have race becoming an influence without anybody being racist.

 d-usa wrote:
But did Z follow every white kid that roamed the neighborhood? Both Z and M are a good example that race relations are not the utopia that some people like to prevent they are.

I don't think that race, on either side, is the reason for a dead kid and the current trial. But race is weaved in threads throughout this story, contributing here and there to the fabric of this whole event. Ignoring it would be unwise, but claiming that it is the biggest part of the fabric is unwise as well.

Do we know he didn't? Z didn't even know he was black until a while into the call he made to the police.

All we know is this, Martin used racial slurs to portray Z. Z was unsure of Martins race when he made the initial call to the police.

The hell with it, I'll just throw it out there. I do feel race was responsible for Martin's death. I believe that Martin went back after Zimmerman because he wanted to kick his ass and claim some street cred. He probably thought Z was some yuppie white guy and if he got the drop on him, he'd be easy prey. Then when he got home he could tell his friends about how he beat some "creepy cracka's" ass. Unfortunately for Martin, Z was armed, otherwise the plan would have gone off without a hitch.

The evidence presented in this trial, along with the information we know of Martin's life that has been suppressed from the trial, has led me to that conclusion. Take of it what you will. I feel that this entire affair is just sad. It resulted in one loss of a life, and many completely destroyed lives. Many choices could have been made, by all parties, that wouldn't have had this result. It's a shame, but in the end it happened the way it did.

I've seen a ton of arguments that if Zimmerman had never gotten out of his truck, it never would have happened. Well to me that is nothing more then blaming the real victim of that scenario. Just like telling a drunk girl who was raped that if she hadn't drank so much, she wouldn't have been raped.

Edit: I'm fully aware that this post may start some fires. I'm just going to make it very clear right now, I am in no way a racist, never have been, never will be. I am a realist though, and I do understand how things out there do tend to work in certain social circles.

 djones520 wrote:

 d-usa wrote:
But did Z follow every white kid that roamed the neighborhood? Both Z and M are a good example that race relations are not the utopia that some people like to prevent they are.

I don't think that race, on either side, is the reason for a dead kid and the current trial. But race is weaved in threads throughout this story, contributing here and there to the fabric of this whole event. Ignoring it would be unwise, but claiming that it is the biggest part of the fabric is unwise as well.

Do we know he didn't? Z didn't even know he was black until a while into the call he made to the police.

All we know is this, Martin used racial slurs to portray Z. Z was unsure of Martins race when he made the initial call to the police.

The hell with it, I'll just throw it out there. I do feel race was responsible for Martin's death. I believe that Martin went back after Zimmerman because he wanted to kick his ass and claim some street cred. He probably thought Z was some yuppie white guy and if he got the drop on him, he'd be easy prey. Then when he got home he could tell his friends about how he beat some "creepy cracka's" ass. Unfortunately for Martin, Z was armed, otherwise the plan would have gone off without a hitch.

The evidence presented in this trial, along with the information we know of Martin's life that has been suppressed from the trial, has led me to that conclusion. Take of it what you will. I feel that this entire affair is just sad. It resulted in one loss of a life, and many completely destroyed lives. Many choices could have been made, by all parties, that wouldn't have had this result. It's a shame, but in the end it happened the way it did.

I've seen a ton of arguments that if Zimmerman had never gotten out of his truck, it never would have happened. Well to me that is nothing more then blaming the real victim of that scenario. Just like telling a drunk girl who was raped that if she hadn't drank so much, she wouldn't have been raped.

Edit: I'm fully aware that this post may start some fires. I'm just going to make it very clear right now, I am in no way a racist, never have been, never will be. I am a realist though, and I do understand how things out there do tend to work in certain social circles.

*Slow Clap*

 d-usa wrote:
There is a difference between somebody doing something because they are racist or something happening because of an unconscious racial bias. Sometimes something happens because somebody is making a conscious effort to not be racist, and ends up in the opposite end and expressing a favorable bias. You can have race becoming an influence without anybody being racist.

So even when race isn't a factor, it's a factor? I hope you'll excuse my skepticism, I make an effort to treat everyone the same.

 d-usa wrote:

 Gentleman_Jellyfish wrote:

 d-usa wrote:
Race is always a factor, and to think that we are past that as a society is naive. That doesn't mean that it is the only factor, or even a major factor. But race still contributes to situations like this.

Can't someone just kill someone these days without being called a racist?

Race can be a factor in deciding to follow him, but doesn't have to be.
Race can be a factor in the killing, but doesn't have to be.
Race can be a factor in the investigation, but doesn't have to be.
Race can be a factor in deciding to press charged, but doesn't have to be.
Race can be a factor in the news coverage, but doesn't have to be.
Race can be a factor in jury selection, but doesn't have to be.
Race can be a factor in the jury decision, but doesn't have to be.
Race can be a factor in the sentencing by the judge or jury, but doesn't have to be.

Etc, etc, etc.

It doesn't have to be a major factor, or a concious bias by any specific person. But it is usually still there.

Is this kind of like the "everyone is a little gay"?

 Dreadclaw69 wrote:

 d-usa wrote:
There is a difference between somebody doing something because they are racist or something happening because of an unconscious racial bias. Sometimes something happens because somebody is making a conscious effort to not be racist, and ends up in the opposite end and expressing a favorable bias. You can have race becoming an influence without anybody being racist.

So even when race isn't a factor, it's a factor? I hope you'll excuse my skepticism, I make an effort to treat everyone the same.

You would be the first person to be completely free of any bias or prejudice IMO.

 d-usa wrote:

You would be the first person to be completely free of any bias or prejudice IMO.

I treat everyone with equal contempt, to keep it fair.

 d-usa wrote:
You would be the first person to be completely free of any bias or prejudice IMO.

So do I get a prize?
I'll make it really simple. I have lived with gays, bisexuals, lesbians, Socialists, Conservatives, Loyalists, Republicans, Independents, Protestants, Muslims, Atheists, Buddhist, Christians, Africans, Koreans, French, Lithuanians, Chinese, and many more besides. I've worked with people of many different races, creeds, and colours. I grew up in a society where being singled out for violence based on perceived religion was a daily occurrence. And in all that time I haven't felt the need to treat anyone differently based on some arbitrary difference.

 kronk wrote:
I treat everyone with equal contempt, to keep it fair.

Bingo I hate everyone equally so no one feels left out, or discriminated against

 hotsauceman1 wrote:

 djones520 wrote:

 d-usa wrote:
But did Z follow every white kid that roamed the neighborhood? Both Z and M are a good example that race relations are not the utopia that some people like to prevent they are.

I don't think that race, on either side, is the reason for a dead kid and the current trial. But race is weaved in threads throughout this story, contributing here and there to the fabric of this whole event. Ignoring it would be unwise, but claiming that it is the biggest part of the fabric is unwise as well.

Do we know he didn't? Z didn't even know he was black until a while into the call he made to the police.

All we know is this, Martin used racial slurs to portray Z. Z was unsure of Martins race when he made the initial call to the police.

The hell with it, I'll just throw it out there. I do feel race was responsible for Martin's death. I believe that Martin went back after Zimmerman because he wanted to kick his ass and claim some street cred. He probably thought Z was some yuppie white guy and if he got the drop on him, he'd be easy prey. Then when he got home he could tell his friends about how he beat some "creepy cracka's" ass. Unfortunately for Martin, Z was armed, otherwise the plan would have gone off without a hitch.

The evidence presented in this trial, along with the information we know of Martin's life that has been suppressed from the trial, has led me to that conclusion. Take of it what you will. I feel that this entire affair is just sad. It resulted in one loss of a life, and many completely destroyed lives. Many choices could have been made, by all parties, that wouldn't have had this result. It's a shame, but in the end it happened the way it did.

I've seen a ton of arguments that if Zimmerman had never gotten out of his truck, it never would have happened. Well to me that is nothing more then blaming the real victim of that scenario. Just like telling a drunk girl who was raped that if she hadn't drank so much, she wouldn't have been raped.

Edit: I'm fully aware that this post may start some fires. I'm just going to make it very clear right now, I am in no way a racist, never have been, never will be. I am a realist though, and I do understand how things out there do tend to work in certain social circles.

*Slow Clap*

ditto... exalted.

I'll take it a step further. It only became a race issue when the usual crowd made it so (media, black panther, the rev, etc...). This whole situation is sad... one dude lost his life, and the other most likely suffer from this whole ordeal. That's all.

Where's the outrage from places like Chicago or DC?

 djones520 wrote:

The hell with it, I'll just throw it out there. I do feel race was responsible for Martin's death. I believe that Martin went back after Zimmerman because he wanted to kick his ass and claim some street cred. He probably thought Z was some yuppie white guy and if he got the drop on him, he'd be easy prey. Then when he got home he could tell his friends about how he beat some "creepy cracka's" ass. Unfortunately for Martin, Z was armed, otherwise the plan would have gone off without a hitch.

Honestly I think you have to take it even further.

Race was responsible for Martin's death because the overall acceptance of "urban" culture has made it "acceptable" to be a thuggish gangsta.