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 triplegrim wrote:
They dont expect people who have full armies to buy much more anyway, is my guess.

I'm in kind of the opposite boat. I'm going to scramble to finish up my host of the eternity king and the probably 50 bucks i need to finish my ogres, because my group and I have already decided that we're sticking with 8th if they decide not to support the larger scale army style and go with skirmish style only (also, if the hex base thing is true, feth that noise).

However, that Warrior of Chaos army i was going to build once i finished buying the very little elves i need left to finish my HotEK army ? Yep. Going to xwing. Or anywhere, any company, else until this gak sorts itself out. Past a few dark and wood elf purchases to flesh out what i want to do with Elves in 8th, thanquol and book 5 of end times, Gee Dubs won't be seeing a cent from me. Probably going to offload my tau too, because, nah, feth it.

I used to play WM/H, and loved the game. Also had some very real gripes with it that made me eventually give it up. I will say this ; Privateer has never so much as hinted at fething their customers the way GW will if half of the rumors about 9th are true. And there was some EPIC butthurt going from MK1 to MK2 before the dust all settled.


At the end of the day i feel bad for people that rely on pick up games... i'm lucky... i have a group that will play 8th with me until we're too old and senile to remember what WHFB even is. It's the guys that don't have a regular crew and rely on pick up games i pity ; in that scenario, it's REALLY hard to find games in older editions. :(

 Ozymandias wrote:

 JohnHwangDD wrote:
Based on how well the game plays at 750, I'd say so. Seriously, go try a game in which movement and range actually matters.

I did a lot of 500-pt in-store games, because they pretty much always finished quickly and easily. And they were a good match for the armies the people were starting.

Define "community". Surely, you can't be referring to the tournament scene, as that is known to be the far extreme of the player base, and minimally relevant to anybody who isn't actively playing tournaments. If you want to look at who actually buys and plays 40k or WFB, they are the garage & basement gamer crowd who play beer & pretzels, just like the designers of the game.

So you're saying the Designers designed the game for 750 point games? I know you like to be obtuse, but we all know the game is designed for 1,500 - 2,000. I also like smaller point games, but let's be reasonable about what size the game is designed for.

Well let's face it GW are pretty terrible game designers.

I wouldn't be too surprised if it turned out smaller point games are ideal, even if it is by accident.

WayneTheGame wrote:
35 points is a regular sized game of Warmachine,

Just wanted to chime in and say that 50 points is the preferred points that warmachine players tend to play at for both normal games and tournaments, they argue it gives you more options.

TBH, once it became clear that warmachine was no longer a skirmish game (above 25 points) I dropped it like a baby that was poopin itself.

I play 35 point games of Hordes all the time. It's my preferred point level.

 triplegrim wrote:
They dont expect people who have full armies to buy much more anyway, is my guess.

It honestly doesn't matter if they expect that.

If little Timmy comes in the store eager to learn to play a game and sees 4 tables with vets and new players playing Bubble World Fantasy, they are more likely to gravitate to that system to play.

If there are 4 tables each with a different game, little Timmy has three other choices that might pull him in a different direction.

GW needs vets to play because GW cant be bothered to promote itself any other way.

 juraigamer wrote:

WayneTheGame wrote:
35 points is a regular sized game of Warmachine,

Just wanted to chime in and say that 50 points is the preferred points that warmachine players tend to play at for both normal games and tournaments, they argue it gives you more options.

TBH, once it became clear that warmachine was no longer a skirmish game (above 25 points) I dropped it like a baby that was poopin itself.

Eh, we have a really strong WM/H presence here (due to a very active and stellar Press Ganger), tournaments and leagues are going on all the time...Warhammer and 40K games have to be scheduled in advance because all the pickup games are WM/H. I'd say 35pt and 50pt games are about equal in popularity with most of our local tourneys being 35pts (He's running a 35pt steam Roller on the 17th at a mini-Con held at the local University). 50pt games just take longer, especially when you are not doing timed turns/deathclock...

I think PP definitely pushed the balance and meta in the direction of 50pt games when they released the Colossals and Battle Engines, but the way the game is played, with each model/unit having its own special snow-flake rules, it can eat up time.

I will wait and see what happens with this whole paradigm shift in Warhammer Fantasy...but right now I feel like just sticking with 8th edition....try to buy up the books and models I've been putting off just in case they get axed...

As someone who has never gotten into Fantasy for one reason or another, I will say that I am tentatively interested in what this new version may provide. It sounds like it is WHFB in the same way that C&C 4 was a Command & Conquer game- that is, mostly in units and appearance but not traditional gameplay.

Something that has always bugged me about Fantasy is the endless ranking up of troops- all these fairly expensive models that you can barely see behind further ranks that just seem to serve as wound counters...I know it wasn't always this way (and the game certainly looks impressive from above) but it feels like a *lot* of money for models you barely even show-off. If the round base thing is true and the game is more at a skirmish level, it can get the benefit of 40k by allowing units to be seen and conversions to be better displayed...I'm sure I'm going to take flak for this, but I think that the more individualistic nature of models in 40k does a lot to draw people in (and by conjunction, the bloating and turning of cheap units into amorphous wound counters in these newer editions of 40k is hurting it just as bad as WHFB). When the models were a bit more generic, they were cheaper and it was more about a fantasy wargame, but when they get to boutique-levels of expensive, that idea starts to get eroded.

That all being said, I think this could easily be another thing GW does in bad faith to its existing customer base in a short-minded attempt to draw up revenue. Time will tell- like I said, I'm excited to see if this might be a grimdark fantasy skirmish game that is easier to get into, but I'm cautious due to the many underhanded tactics GW has employed these last few years.

I am also intrigued. As someone who mostly played during 6th and 7th I don't own the sprawling infantry units.

After switching to an Alpine table I've been putting off rebasing them for some time now. If they need to go to rounds and the new rules are interesting that would be sufficient motivation.

Best case: This new game is in support of Fantasy and serves as a gateway to the larger game.

Worst case: Pretty much everything the rumors say is true.

I'm hoping after their last couple financial reports they start making some smart moves.

I sympathize with those who rely on game store games if this goes the way many worry.

Oh yes, I certainly feel for the loyal WHFB fans. That seems to have been the story with GW these last few years though- those who are most loyal and supportive of the company always seem to be the ones making the sacrifices on the company's behalf.

 Yodhrin wrote:

Errrm, I'm pretty sure Vermis was agreeing with Gubbinz, ie making exactly the opposite of the argument you're stating. That's why I was having a pop, I'm getting tired of the whole "ermahgerd just play old editions/other companies' games/write your own rules, you lazy GW-sheeple!" shtick that gets thrown around every time someone objects to the decisions GW have been making recently.

Oh wait, that was a pop at me, right?

S'cool. Like I said before, I'm not your problem. People who talk about alternate rules and striking out to find other venues and opponents whenever GW pulls the rug from under you again are not your problem. We're just listing a few of your options, some of which worked pretty well for us when GW strained us beyond our limits. (So welcome to the club) Let's run down a few here, as far as I can see...

1) You keep playing at a GW store, or even a FLGS that has a lot of up-to-date FB gaming. You shell out for 9th ed. You shell out for a new 9th ed army, or warband, or whatever it is, if you even need to. You'll shelve, sell or dump your old army, if you even need to. Maybe a) it turns out you love 9th ed and you almost forget why you had worries at this point, or b) you'll miss the old rules you liked (or at least disliked less), resent 9th ed, resent GW's ongoing scalping and shenanigans, and resent what your hobby has become, but still keep feeding coins into the slot because reasons. G'luck with that.

2) You manage to hunt out some players who like the same edition you do, or people willing to try it out, and you meet at a FLGS, an existing club, at a club you created or helped to create, or at the home of one of the group. It might take a while to find and organise such a group. It might curtail your gaming for a while and afterwards it might not be as regular as your GW heyday, but it is the edition you enjoy and you do get some games in.

3) As 2, but with other games. It might include a fantasy ruleset that your army is compatible with, or it might include different systems with different genres and different models. Maybe even (whisper it) historicals. Maybe you enjoy them more than you did your favoured edition of Warhammer. Maybe you still wish you could dust off your old army once in a while. Maybe the gaming group, whoever they may be, aren't opposed to giving it a shot every so often. Maybe maybe maybe. My crystal ball is in the shop.

4) You can't do any of this. You don't start 9th ed (perfectly reasonable) but a) your real life and situation don't allow you further than the nearest GW (genuinely unfortunate), or b) because pickup games, buying more new WFB stuff, and/or GW were your only reasons for gaming. (also unfortunate, but in a different way) Either way, that's it. You can't play anymore. Game over, man. Game over.

That's how I see it. Please add to it if you think I've missed anything. But let's look at what I have here. 1a is possible, but I guess not altogether likely for some of the concerned parties here. 1b is hardly ideal, I hope you'll agree. 4a even less so, and if that's the reason for quitting, I am sorry. I can't really imagine how such an extreme scenario comes about, but I don't doubt it does.

So 2 and 3, then. These are the options I think are more likely to work out positively. To a died-in-the-wool GW store gamer, they might seem like too drastic a leap, too much hard work, too doomed to failure; but I'm sitting on the other side of the fence with a bunch of others, all trying to call over and say they can work, and it's not so bad over here! Better even.
If you think we're watching all this despair and anger as Warhammer explodes into billions of tiny bubbles around you, then post our positive experiences about the possibilities of 2&3 just to mock you as 'GW sheeple'... I dunno. Yeah, there is - in turn - some expressed frustration as I see so much yammering, outrage, and defeat in topics like this, but so little desire or conviction to break away or work something out to some kind of satisfaction; but I say you're taking it the wrong way. I don't hate you. I don't hate GW gamers. I just want to point out that things aren't all doom and gloom when GW becomes unbearable or untenable (what better time?) and that Warhammer isn't the beginning and end of fantasy gaming.

I totally understand any hesitation by long time WFB players...

That being said, the End Times series drew me to the game (having played Warmachine for years and often disregarding GW) and I beleive that same dynamic thinking in reinventing a game will, in the end (Which might take until 10th ed.) prove to be good for the game. I think a lot of people are like me...

GW has my attention now, so Im intrigued to see whats next.

+1 for seriously doubting GW would make all the WHFB models invalid in the next update but this is what I suspect GW will be doing for 9th:

The End Times is a hint to us as far as what factions there will be in the next edition, so far we have Undead, Chaos, Elves, and Skaven so if there really will be six factions in the 9th edition, then we might see Greenskins and Man as the next two End Times installions? That would leave us with 6 factions for 9th.

Also with the direction GW has been taking, making it possible to build multiple models from one kit, i.e., the verminking can be assembled as several different models, same with the Mortachs of Nagash and Maggoth Lords. So, I suspect with the 9th edition, we will have factions within factions such as dark, wood, and high elves being one faction and we would be able to build our elves as one of those factions from one kit however we would see the same rule being used for high elves and dark elves spearman but if you assemble it as dark, you get special rules, and vice versa. Future kit releases would be to consolidate factions into one kit and one army book.

This would be a really smart move by GW and I think it is a plausible theory. Of course there will be a mechanical overhaul to go with this aesthic overhaul but as I said, I seriously doubt the current models will be rendered invalid except for maybe very few specific models and possibly the entire lizardmen line but nothing too drastic.

I know that it has probably been said better previously but... The more rumors I see, the more I am reminded of 'pancake edition' 40k.

 pretre wrote:
I know that it has probably been said better previously but... The more rumors I see, the more I am reminded of 'pancake edition' 40k.

For those of us not in the know about pancakes and their relevance to 40k?

 AkhilleusK42 wrote:

 pretre wrote:
I know that it has probably been said better previously but... The more rumors I see, the more I am reminded of 'pancake edition' 40k.

For those of us not in the know about pancakes and their relevance to 40k?

It was a totally fake edition that someone put out, and people believed it was real.

Ahhh, I see! Thank you kindly for the clarification, Bi'ios.

Still, wargames combined with a delicious breakfast option? Who wouldn't want to believe in such a mythical world.

EDIT: Herp derp, how do I syntax?

And it was so so sweet

Syrup for the syrup god!!!!

Basically as stated it was a pretty detailed (fake?) draft of 40k that represented a huge shift in mechanics and rules. Like bigger then 5th to 6th big.

Oh, I can imagine the outcry. I really hope this proposed game style shift opens Fantasy up to new players

Also, I can't help but point out that "Syrup for the syrup god!!!!" is approximately seven trillion times more hilarious coming from a Canadian.

 pretre wrote:
I know that it has probably been said better previously but... The more rumors I see, the more I am reminded of 'pancake edition' 40k.

Yeah, it does have that feel a bit. I would point out though that the reception to the pancake edition was generally positive IIRC where as this isn't.

 Eldarain wrote:
I am also intrigued. As someone who mostly played during 6th and 7th I don't own the sprawling infantry units.

After switching to an Alpine table I've been putting off rebasing them for some time now. If they need to go to rounds and the new rules are interesting that would be sufficient motivation.

Best case: This new game is in support of Fantasy and serves as a gateway to the larger game.

Worst case: Pretty much everything the rumors say is true.

I'm hoping after their last couple financial reports they start making some smart moves.

I sympathize with those who rely on game store games if this goes the way many worry.

I agree with this stance, it could be good if it's a separate game in and of it's own, but to totally replace the old game? That would be literally the worst thing GW could do.

Maybe Mat Ward is planning to destroy the game so he and Jervis can play with all the models alone in their basement? Who knows. Do they even still pay that twit with real money or have they realized you can pay Mat Ward with pbc bubblegum?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
PBC stands for Previously Been Chewed. Just in case...

warboss wrote:

 pretre wrote:
I know that it has probably been said better previously but... The more rumors I see, the more I am reminded of 'pancake edition' 40k.

Yeah, it does have that feel a bit. I would point out though that the reception to the pancake edition was generally positive IIRC where as this isn't.

The irony is thick.

darkcloak wrote:I agree with this stance, it could be good if it's a separate game in and of it's own, but to totally replace the old game? That would be literally the worst thing GW could do.

Maybe Mat Ward is planning to destroy the game so he and Jervis can play with all the models alone in their basement? Who knows. Do they even still pay that twit with real money or have they realized you can pay Mat Ward with pbc bubblegum?

Mat Ward has already abandoned ship. Take that as you will.

 warboss wrote:

 pretre wrote:
I know that it has probably been said better previously but... The more rumors I see, the more I am reminded of 'pancake edition' 40k.

Yeah, it does have that feel a bit. I would point out though that the reception to the pancake edition was generally positive IIRC where as this isn't.

Right, I meant more that there was a big rumor with a lot of details that everyone jumped on and turned into a 'thing'.

I get what you're saying, and you're right this is still just a rumour. But my gut-instinct says this one is credible: it has the right sources (like harry & darnok), its the opposite of popular (people went nuts over how much they liked the pancake edition), and it doesn't address the issue of fantasy's declining sales. In short, it has games workshop written all over it. Time will tell though, still just a rumour at this point.

I'm gonna have to dig up who the big proponents of pancake were.

 pretre wrote:
I'm gonna have to dig up who the big proponents of pancake were.

inb4 Natfka.

The hilarious thing about pancake edition, however, is that it not only was a pretty good-looking forged piece of rules, it also was considerably better than the actual rules GW published.

hehe, my poor Wood Elves finally get an update only to get
shoveled into a floating island battle between the realities with
their snobby cousins who look down on everyone and the
creepy ones who are into all kinds of stuff.

This end times business was bad enough, but I guess 40k has
space travel to allow for all kinds of story battles. I'm not sure
what other way they could go to have all the races interacting
all the time.

 Sigvatr wrote:

 pretre wrote:
I'm gonna have to dig up who the big proponents of pancake were.

inb4 Natfka.

The hilarious thing about pancake edition, however, is that it not only was a pretty good-looking forged piece of rules, it also was considerably better than the actual rules GW published.

This.

Our group playtested 40k PE once it broke cover, and I, for one, was really digging them. It was a solid advance from 5E and played better.

Then the real version of 6E hit.

Part of me thinks that 40k PE was too good, so GW knee-jerked away from it.

If GW follows threw with splitting the lands of the old up and it isn't all that well received, they could re-create warhammer as a mass battle game in recreating the old world in the next edition with a campaign series. After all of they could wreck the world, they could rebuild it and possibly retcon the entire end times campaign afterwards.

 JohnHwangDD wrote:

What I don't understand is how GW is "bad" for doing what Privateer has done. Why aren't we excpriating Privateer as "bad" for pushing proprietary IP for laughably ridiculous models at unconscionably high per-model price points?

For me personally, PP isn't "bad" because they take an active role with their customers. They discuss what they are up to, and work to fix holes in the system as they pop up. They also support and push tournament play, which helps drive people into playing more (and for even a casual gamer like me, makes me more willing to play for pick-up game occasions).

The sticker price has never seemed that much cheaper to me than GW stuff, and in some cases PP stuff has seemed more expensive. Until I realize that I can't compare a unit box from GW to a unit box from PP in usefulness to an army.

Though I guess PP could be bad for pushing super silly shoulder pads...

Edit to add: I do realize that PP can do all this because it has a much smaller machine to run, and doesn't have to answer to public shareholders like GW does.

This rumor does sound similar to the transition of Space Marine to Epic 40K back in the day.
Sure Epic didn't have a wholesale rewrite of the background, however it did leave several of the most popular armies squated (or at least on the back burner) which helped seal its fate.

And while some people are arguing against GW doing limited releases for unit boxes, it should be remembered that GW's definition of limited doesn't mean one and done. The Space Hulk re-re-release could be a precursor.

I can see Kirby approving a plan where a mold is retired, only to be brought back in 3 years during a slow release week, but now with an extra sprue with a new "greatswords & ribbons" option to encourage repurchase from the remaining vets... and only with a 20% price hike