Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

BA are fast. Faster than any other marine chapter, actually, even the White Scars. I can get an entire list into my opponent's deployment zone with two movement phases. It's disgusting that this is not fast enough against Tau in general.

As I said somewhere, I'm gonna try more stormshields.

Sure, in sm they are commonly taken (despite what was said in other threads). I think we just disagree on the term common, but I see your point and agree with it.

Rhinos I agree. I don't think rhinos, outside of gladius, are a problem for tau. Someone, not you, claimed that. I don't think your 6 invul made the tau player suddenly freak out about your rhinos either. I think a riptide most likely won't fire at the rhino, but if it had to, the wing helps a lot. That formation is absurd.

You may not be arguing that the riptide isn't too strong, but many others are. Sorry, wasn't directed at you.

Rhinos are good vs Riptides, but are poor vs the rest of the Tau army. Their troops can glance it out at 30". Only the Eldar are better.

yes, the FW can glance it at 30", a full FW squad shooting their 12 shots, hitting 6 glancing front armor on 6s is a very real threat. but 1 glance average per squad on a troop delivery system, that costs 35 points, (i guess 45 for BA, but can move 12 and flat out another 12 being fast) should get you pretty close in 1 turn, and have ablative wounds that take out a very expendable rhino over your damage dealing troops.

if you play the standard deployment, there are 24" between your deployment zones (12" off center line) your BA rhinos should be on the edge of enemies deployment zone first turn. and then waste the Fire power to pop them. if they are wrecked instead of destroyed (guaranteed if glanced to death, or pened with the ap4 broadsides you fear), you can use the hull to block LOS to other more damaging units. even if you score hits and wounds, if you have no los you cannot allocate wounds and any extra go to waste.

 pumaman1 wrote:
yes, the FW can glance it at 30", a full FW squad shooting their 12 shots, hitting 6 glancing front armor on 6s is a very real threat. but 1 glance average per squad on a troop delivery system, that costs 35 points, (i guess 45 for BA, but can move 12 and flat out another 12 being fast) should get you pretty close in 1 turn, and have ablative wounds that take out a very expendable rhino over your damage dealing troops.

if you play the standard deployment, there are 24" between your deployment zones (12" off center line) your BA rhinos should be on the edge of enemies deployment zone first turn. and then waste the Fire power to pop them. if they are wrecked instead of destroyed (guaranteed if glanced to death, or pened with the ap4 broadsides you fear), you can use the hull to block LOS to other more damaging units. even if you score hits and wounds, if you have no los you cannot allocate wounds and any extra go to waste.

There's also HYMP, crisis suits and Stormsurge. These are obviously much bigger threats.

You have a nasty habit of going outside of the stated example to complain some more. Your complaint was about FW able to glance rhinos, so i commented on that. If it had been about missile sides can pen rhinos (cannot explode) i would have addressed it.

And again, hide your units behind your dead rhino, and they aren't allowed to allocate wounds to you, because they cannot see you. ignores cover doesn't ignore LOS, only SMS can, and you'll get armor saves.

and if a unit of missile sides shoots at you, it is likely to be a unit of 3 (all with ewo so no target lock to split, because max 1 support) that is 210 points to kill 1 rhino. you won that encounter.

if a storm surge is shooting at your rhino.. why? at 360 points it should be targeting devastators/hq/cent squads, or have its own distraction units. and every 3 HP is a victory point for you being a low.

"devastators/hq/cent squads"

Jokes on them! I don't use those things.

I guess in theory marine troops can take heavy weapons and take out Rhinos at range as well. But no one does that anymore, so it's easy to forget.

I suppose the bottom line is that the Tau list works together much better than the BA list.

I will agree with you Martel, successful tau lists require working together to get the most/enough out of the units. As an army, its more clear/straightforward that it is required/how to do it.

 pumaman1 wrote:
I will agree with you Martel, successful tau lists require working together to get the most/enough out of the units. As an army, its more clear/straightforward that it is required/how to do it.

BA don't even get a librarian conclave, so there's very little synergy.

I don't often advocate using multiple books, but what's to stop you from saying "These Libbys? Yeah, they're Iron Hands" with your BA models?

Martel732 wrote:
Rhinos are good vs Riptides, but are poor vs the rest of the Tau army. Their troops can glance it out at 30". Only the Eldar are better.

Rhinos aren't acary. they are just extremely good at ablation. That is the true power of the Battle company as well. It ablates enemy fire incredibly well. I will point out that in ITC missions which put a much bigger focus on the number of things killed, they aren't as good as say pure eternal war missions where essentially only one mission disadvantages them. So it is fair to say.

The Rhinos for Sisters of Battle are an absolute necessity in 7E. I went from an army of Sisters that literally had zero armor in it to an army that now has NINE Rhino in it. That is how drastic the change has been for them. Adapt or die though, so that's what I did.

Bharring wrote:
I don't often advocate using multiple books, but what's to stop you from saying "These Libbys? Yeah, they're Iron Hands" with your BA models?

The fact that he wants to strictly run Blood Angels?

Honestly, if I were going to suggest he do something like that--I would advocate just using the Librarius Conclave formation that they released for Dark Angels.

I dont care what Martel wants to play as long as he's willing to adapt. But he takes particular joy in flaggelating himself over and over by rejecting any and all suggestions to help and of course... will not give GW "a dime" in order to change.

My suggestion to literally anyone who isn't willing to change is to be ready for consequences. They are coming. I don't think that's arrogant to say. I think its tough love. At some point someone has to tell him what he needs to hear and in my opinion what he needs to hear is that his enjoyment of complaining is holding him back.

I think martel seems like a very nice person who is very VERY down on his faction and he wants worse than anything for it to be what it was in 5E. And it was a juggernaut in 5E. Good generals splattered people all over the place with them, playing them like Necrons. Lol.

Those days are gone and I want Martel to start splattering people again, but he has GOT to listen to successful stories and he has got to adapt. Most importantly he needs to stop for a moment RIGHT before he hits the SUBMIT button and read what he's about to submit and ask himself whether or not its a "Blood Angels suck" comment. Then if he finds it to be one, erase it. No one needs to be told what the struggle is a hundred times. We need the solutions.

Holy crap I'm exalting jancoran.

I don't often agree with him but that was well said.

Akiasura wrote:
Holy crap I'm exalting jancoran.

I don't often agree with him but that was well said.

This is a day of days.

As I said, I don't think jan's proposed ba list is remotely feasible, but maybe more storm shields will be.

Akiasura wrote:
Holy crap I'm exalting jancoran.

I don't often agree with him but that was well said.

Indeed.

That said, I do not think Jancoran's lists and anecdotes are the answer (as Martel is not facing CAAC lists) but in general that post was correct.

Agreed
I'm not exalting everything after all

Akiasura wrote:
Holy crap I'm exalting jancoran.

I don't often agree with him but that was well said.

Wait till the day when you embrace the awesomeness that is Mutilators

Akiasura wrote:
Yoyoyo, so out of all the options in the game, 2 come to mind? Or a type of list that isn't popular, high av spam?

Yeah, think we can conclude that Riptides in a wing are quite strong.

Well, Beasthunter ABG Vanquishers can do it, or Tzeentch psykers with the D-shot, or ID and Force weapons, or Mirror of Minds and LD debuffs, or a lot of other crap, but I'm not nearly pedantic enough to list everything in the game.

It's a very strong unit in an even stronger formation (in other news water is wet), this is the kind of stuff that used to be Apoc only and GW has been slowly working into 40k. You know what? I don't think a Warhound Titan would be out of place at this point. I don't see things ever changing back, if you want to play "classic hammer" we need new list construction restrictions, where poor bloody infantry are troops (not bikes, not 15pt spore mines), and strong non-troops choices are extremely limited. "Free points" are another indicator of Apoc-style bloat, games at 1850pts aren't finishing at tournaments because it effectively translates into more models. Bravo GW, pretty sneaky.

Seriously -- how many of Martel's firepower and survivability issues would be solved by a Titan? It might be fighting 2 Stormsurges anyway. The game has reached that level of craziness, 100%.

If he could squeeze a Warhound into his list, it would go a long way to solving a lot of problems. It's not exactly polite, but when you start flinging around D weapons, even things that are as tough as Riptides have to sit up and take notice. It would certainly take all the fire off of his BA too. Who shoots at assault marines with high STR/AP weapons when there's a Warhound on the table and shooting back?

Martel732 wrote:
BA are fast. Faster than any other marine chapter, actually, even the White Scars. I can get an entire list into my opponent's deployment zone with two movement phases. It's disgusting that this is not fast enough against Tau in general.

What's disgusting to me is that most people won't be happy until they can be in assault with a Tau army on turn one. People are going to cry if Tau get to shoot at all.

They always fething have, too.

Yoyoyo wrote:

Akiasura wrote:
Holy crap I'm exalting jancoran.

I don't often agree with him but that was well said.

Wait till the day when you embrace the awesomeness that is Mutilators

If you guys ever want to hit the goal post we'd set early on in the thread, I'd listen

Yoyoyo wrote:

Akiasura wrote:
Yoyoyo, so out of all the options in the game, 2 come to mind? Or a type of list that isn't popular, high av spam?

Yeah, think we can conclude that Riptides in a wing are quite strong.

Well, Beasthunter ABG Vanquishers can do it, or Tzeentch psykers with the D-shot, or ID and Force weapons, or Mirror of Minds and LD debuffs, or a lot of other crap, but I'm not nearly pedantic enough to list everything in the game.

We covered many of these.
The beasthunter is interesting, although it requires selecting from a list that isn't great and suffers from being a tank against the tau. It's also part of a high AV spam list.
Force weapons and Tzeentch psyker powers are still short ranged compared to the riptide. WC 3 and a to hit roll means you need a psyker spam army, I'm not sure its actually better than just going with something fast and melee focused instead.
Similar issues with the LD equipment, too short ranged and on few units.

Outside of the beast hunter, none of these are a counter for 3, which we seem to be seeing in tournaments. The ITC nerfs to destroyer weapons don't help.
Regardless, it does some like high AV spam is the surest counter. You could argue the beasthunter fits into the previously mentioned list style.

I'm not saying it doesn't have counters, just that there aren't many out there. Centstar for one, probably a screamer star too.

Yoyoyo wrote:

It's a very strong unit in an even stronger formation (in other news water is wet), this is the kind of stuff that used to be Apoc only and GW has been slowly working into 40k. You know what? I don't think a Warhound Titan would be out of place at this point. I don't see things ever changing back, if you want to play "classic hammer" we need new list construction restrictions, where poor bloody infantry are troops (not bikes, not 15pt spore mines), and strong non-troops choices are extremely limited. "Free points" are another indicator of Apoc-style bloat, games at 1850pts aren't finishing at tournaments because it effectively translates into more models. Bravo GW, pretty sneaky.

You say that, but we've had several posters saying the Riptide is fine throughout the thread. That's what the discussion was about.
It's toughness came up since the biggest point of contention about the piece is how hard it is to remove. If it had less wounds, a 3+ save, less range (one of those) the complaints would die down.

I'd be all for a 4+ save personally. That would make you seriously think about how you use your nova charges and when you use it to boost a weapon the riptide is actually vulnerable for a turn.

4+ makes no sense whatsoever, though. It's bigger and has heavier armor than any of the smaller battlesuits but it has a worse save?

I'd also find it incredibly difficult to justify the armor saves for a lot of units in 40k if people seriously think the riptide should have a 4+. A riptide is a titanic robot with tank armor and a tank gun strapped to its arm that can easily step on a Space Marine with a 3+ armor save. If the riptide isn't at least as hard as the Marine then that's just bullgak, straight-up.

Personally I'd rather knock wounds off or just get rid of the nova charge mechanic altogether than give it the same armor save as a fething infantrymen wearing some padding.

Who cares about armour when you've got a 3++ unless you choose to boost a weapon.

If you really want to use fluff as an excuse to justify stats - it's an enormous jetpack unit. Armour is light to keep weight down. Plus it has huge exposed joint mechanisms.

 Sidstyler wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
BA are fast. Faster than any other marine chapter, actually, even the White Scars. I can get an entire list into my opponent's deployment zone with two movement phases. It's disgusting that this is not fast enough against Tau in general.

What's disgusting to me is that most people won't be happy until they can be in assault with a Tau army on turn one. People are going to cry if Tau get to shoot at all.

They always fething have, too.

While true, Tau shouldn't get to turn the Assault phase into a second Shooting phase.

 Sidstyler wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
BA are fast. Faster than any other marine chapter, actually, even the White Scars. I can get an entire list into my opponent's deployment zone with two movement phases. It's disgusting that this is not fast enough against Tau in general.

What's disgusting to me is that most people won't be happy until they can be in assault with a Tau army on turn one. People are going to cry if Tau get to shoot at all.

They always fething have, too.

As long as Tau can come close to tabling another army with one turn of shooting, the crying is justified.

I'd suggest a first company detachment with a psychic shriek equipped conclave, but that would require surviving the interceptor when you pod in.

Martel732 wrote:

As long as Tau can come close to tabling another army with one turn of shooting, the crying is justified.

I think what Sidstyler was implying was that this expectation (or crying as you put it) has been going on long before 6th edition and has always followed the Tau around to some degree or another.

Yeah, the 4 th ed tau codex was totally dominant. /snark