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 labmouse42 wrote:

 jy2 wrote:
Vs Daemons (Murderhorde, D-Thirster, Chaos Knight): I've got way too many fast scoring units that also corrupts objectives. I've got a D-Thirster but more importantly, I've got a Chaos Knight with potentially 2++ Invuln. My Daemons will have the board control advantage against the Tetrad.

A 2++ knight is a big problem, but honestly I've found D-Thirsters get beat like a red-headed stepchild by the nurgle prince's balesword. In one game my nurgle prince killed 2 d-thirsters in a row. Fearless dogs from KDK are a big problem.

It can go both ways. If the Thirster stays in terrain, they will most likely cancel each other out. I've actually played a game against a Nurgle flying Circus with Balesword GUO and 3 Balesword DP's. This was with my triple-Thirster army (no Chaos Knight). I charged 2 of his Princes (because he didn't want to charge my Thirster in terrain) and both times, my Thirster killed both of those Princes despite swinging last. Why? Because of 3++ from the Grimoire. It could have been worse if he gets the Re-roll Inv gift as well. Had I the Chaos Knight, you'd be looking at a 2++ Thirster (due to a Legacy Relic on the Knight).

 jy2 wrote:
Vs Centstar (Super-centstar): The super Centstar just doesn't give a f*ck. You can't kill them in assault. I've got 3-4 guys with 2++ (Storm shields + Sanctuary), not to mention potential powers such as Invisibility or Veil of Time. I've got multiple force weapons. I don't even care about Gating away, which I could do. My characters will just force weapon DP's to death in CC if they don't get Endurance.

Can you guarantee Sanctuary here? Is there a character that is guaranteed to get all the Santic powers (like Be'lakor gets all the Telepathy) I'd be curious to see how this would play out. Yet to find a deathstar that can take all 4 princes at once, including a wolfstar.

As already mentioned, Brother-Captain Stern comes with Sanctuary.

 jy2 wrote:
Vs Tyranids (5 Flyrants): That many flyrants will down a DP per turn almost guaranteed (with the exception of the Nurgle DP).

I've not faced 5 Flyrants yet. Would they take a prince down a turn in assault or shooting? Why does the nurgle prince survive?

Assuming the Prince is T6 and is wearing 3+ armor, 5 flyrants = 60 shots x 8/9 hit x 1/2 wound x 1/3 failed saves = 9W. With 4+FNP, it goes down to 4.5W. This doesn't factor in psychic shooting yet (Psychic Scream within Shadow range is extremely dangerous). Nurgle Prince survives due to 2+ shrouded cover. Against him, they only do 4.5W or 2.25W with 4+ FNP.

 jy2 wrote:
Vs Wulfen Space Wolves: These guys are mean as f*ck in CC. They hit like a freight train and they will bring down anything that doesn't have at least a 3++ or re-rollable 4++. Honestly, these guys are meaner than Thunderwolf Cavalry because they potentially hit twice as hard. I think that they can out-assault anything that doesn't have Stomp attacks or 2++/3++ Invuln's.

I guess I need to see this in action. Looking at the statlines they don't look that gross, with their best feature getting one swing after they are killed. A smart player will be using one of the 2 princes that can double them out to prevent FNP. I would do my best to assault them with the Khorne prince. What makes these guys so gross?

Those guys hit like a truck. I normally run 1 w/Frost Claws and 4 TH/SS. That means on the charge, you are looking at 7 S6 AP2 I5 attacks and 20 S10 AP I1 attacks. Moreover, every 6 rolled to hit generates another attack (Murderpack formation). Moreover, you kill them and they still get to attack again. So say they charge a D-Thirster. They attack with 7 S6 + 20 S10 attacks. Then the Thirster swings at I1 and for some reason, rolls 5 6's on the D-table, thus killing them all. Then they get another 7 S6 + 20 S10 attacks again (and with "exploding" 6's)! Best-case scenario for the Wulfen player, you are looking at over 14 S6 attacks and 40 S10 attacks (due to the "exploding" 6's) and that is from just 1 unit!!! As soon as they kill 1 Prince (and they will), all of the other Princes are going to be insta-killed by their S10 attacks. In my Wulfen list, I run 5x5 of these units! Assaulting them by a DP is almost a deathwish.

I agree with you that they are not a tier 1 army. As they say, the proof is in the pudding. We are not seeing Tetrad armies win GTs for the reasons described earlier.
Starting with a bastion is a good idea, and I like it. I think it would help handle a lot of alpha striking problems. I don't think it solves the problems of the tetrad overall for GT winning armies, but it does offer some tricks. I'll probably bring one at my next event with the tetrad.

Honestly, to me, the yardstick for a top-tier army isn't whether it has won any GT or not. How I define a top-tier army is an army that can go toe-to-toe with other top-tier armies and have about an equal chance to win. It doesn't always have to be able to triumph over other top armies. Even a 50% win ratio against other top armies is good enough. The most important thing about a top-tier army in my books is whether it has a consistent chance to beat any other top army no matter the build. Unfortunately, against a lot of other top armies, the Tetrad just does not have that consistency.

locarno24 wrote:

But the DPs can also down one or two tyrant a turn easily.

So if you can (vector) strike first, then it's a one sided game for the demons.
If the tyrant can strike first, then you better pray to get FNP4+ everywhere ^^

Actually, the Tyranids can potentially rip multiple princes out of the sky at once. One thing to be very, very careful about in Daemon Prince versus Hive Tyrant dogfights is the tyranid psychic power Psychic Scream. With every hive tyrant being a level 2 psyker, the psychic phase isn't as easily dominated as it might be with a lot of games, and with Shadow In The Warp, a Ld-attacking nova power which ignores armour and jink saves can seriously inconvenience you if you let the bugs manifest it - plus it makes any perils results requiring leadership checks that much scarier.

Both armies can shred each other to pieces VERY fast. That's what make the match-up not an ideal one. Were I disagree with Jy2, its on the fact that I don't think the tetrad chances of victory is under 50% at equal skill/luck level. Flyrant are more consistent, but the tetrad has a higher potential.

[edit] Didnt saw the previous message but :

J2y wrote:Unfortunately, against a lot of other top armies, the Tetrad just does not have that consistency.

Consistency is the word !

Regarding the shriek-nova, with the DP being higher mastery level, i never found it to be an issue. It's scary, but easy to deny.
The impossible robe on the other hand... that's a true weakness. With 5 flyrant its very easy to inflict 1 wound and force a Ld6 check to not die. You better pray the DP has a 2++ and FNP4+.

 Galef wrote:
@ Labmouse: GK Capt Stern auto has Sanctuary. So the Centstar they are referring to has Stern, Draigo, Tigirius & the Cents. Draigo has storm shield (2++ with Sanctuary) and is THE anti-Daemon Character. Draigo can easily go through 1 Prince per turn. The Tzeencth Prince (only with 2++) is the only chance to slow him down. And even then, Draigo can just leave combat and take the unit with him (Gate)

Another potential with Stern is to add him to a group of TWC with storm shields. He may slow them down, but that's not an issue against the Tetrad

Don't forget that I have several Banishments in the army. Stern's Banishment affects all Daemon units within 12". Draigo can cast his Banishment on a 2+ if he is the Warlord and has Hatred (Daemons). Then I've got Banishment from my strikers and sometimes, a dreadknight (if I take him). I have ways to reduce the Tzeentch DP's Invuln's. Moreover, the Grey Knight characters give the Centstar Prefered Enemy against Daemons.

I use Draigo to tank the Nurgle DP's attacks and put one of my 2++ libbies in the challenge if any other DP's issue a challenge. The only assaults this unit fears is multiple Super-heavies and their Stomps. Charging them with multiple Knights is the best way to kill them, not with multiple DP's.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 RabbitMaster wrote:

Regarding the shriek-nova, with the DP being higher mastery level, i never found it to be an issue. It's scary, but easy to deny.
The impossible robe on the other hand... that's a true weakness. With 5 flyrant its very easy to inflict 1 wound and force a Ld6 check to not die. You better pray the DP has a 2++ and FNP4+.

I consider Psychic Scream if it goes off to be a bonus. You can't really bank on it as reliable offense so I never factor it into the army's chances of winning. In other words, when I look at the matchups, I don't consider Scream at all into the offense. If it successfully goes off, woohoo! But I am assuming that it doesn't go off when I look at the matchups. So in my analysis, the norm is that Tyranids don't get Scream off.

As for the 2++ Tzeentch DP, well, he'd be the last to die. Or he might live. It won't really matter because by then, it would be 1 Prince versus 3-4 flyrants. The only way I see the Tetrad beating a flyrant-spam list is to summon like crazy to try to take the Maelstrom objectives. Win via the "Secondary" strategy because they aren't going to win by going head-to-head against flyrants that they can't assault.

They don't have to assault the flyrants. They have more than enough firepower through vector-striking and shooting (lash + psychic power to down some flyrants.

 RabbitMaster wrote:
They don't have to assault the flyrants. They have more than enough firepower through vector-striking and shooting (lash + psychic power to down some flyrants.

Yes, but who's got the better shooting? 2d6 S-X shots + couple of vector strikes or 60 TL-S6 shots? Your chances of winning by trying to shoot down the flyrants is about as good as the flyrant's chances of winning by not shooting and trying to assault your DP's instead.

 RabbitMaster wrote:
They don't have to assault the flyrants. They have more than enough firepower through vector-striking and shooting (lash + psychic power to down some flyrants.

Tretrad gets one lash, Flyrants are a bunch of psykers also so should be denying some of your psychic shooting as well, and you shouldn't able to get off any vector strikes with out eating all of the twin devourer shots first.

I'm not saying that the tetrad shoot harder than the flyrant guys. Of course 60 twin-linked S6 shots is, in almost all cases, a lot better than the tetrad's non-assault combined firepower. But we're talking in a very particular case here: flyrants vs tetrad. And while it takes all the flyrants to shoot down one averagely buffed DP. The reverse is simply not true. 4 vector striking DP kills a flyrant on average, and they have yet to cast powers / shoot their weapons.

Basically the flyrant shoot hard, but the tetrad is though as nails.
On the other hand the tetrad don't have the same insane firepower, but the flyrant are a lot weaker.


Regarding who get the alpha strike... both have equal chances as they have about the same range. Sure the tetrad wont vector strike before the brainleech worms starts raining, but with all their psychic offense and the few shooting weapons they have (seriously, even the S8 ap1 reward is good against a flyrant), they still have good chances to shoot down one flyrant.

P.S.: One thing we dont think a lot of, but that is somewhat powerful in a tetrad vs flyrant setting, are grounding tests. The tetrad can occasion a lot more grounding tests than the flyrants, and they're alos a lot more resilient to it.

sometimes a single psychic scream kills a tyrant easily so when you have 4 you can shoot down 1-2 in one turn, can happen, not often but happen, vector strike+shrieks kills a tyrant easily, and the range is the same 18" so...problems for a 4-5 flyrant list is on the ground you are very weak and tetrad can eventually summon or have a CAD with obj sec troops, if you dont kill quick the princes you are doomed sometimes to lose to maelstrom , is an hard match for tetrad but most is about single player skill and who start first, if tetrad shoot off their defenesive powers is not easy kill a DP then.

I made some data cards to keep rewards straight for each prince, they're below if anyone finds them useful. Any feedback on additional things to put on the cards would be great too, I just got all my princes together yesterday so I haven't gotten a chance to use them yet and see exactly what I need.

http://imgur.com/eJ20Kqi

Infernal Tetra:

DP: MoK, Wings, 2xGR, warp Armor
DP: MoN, Wings, 1xGR, warp armor, baleful sword, lvl2
DP: MoT, Wings, 2xGR, Impossible Robe, lvl3
DP: MoS, Wings, 1xGR, warp armor, Lash, lvl3

Daemon Lord:
Belakor

CAD:
Herald of Nurgle: Bell

3xnurglings
3xnurglings

Bastion: Comms relay

This would be a decent ITC list that I would take, given how powerful shriek is now at least in the ITC. Belakor would cast shroud, giving every prince 2+ jink and invis on another for added protection.

5 shrieks with bell could potentially down one or two flyrants in one psychic phase. Picking apart deathstars that lack decent invuln easily. 5x5 wulfens even with SS will get whittle down fast.

 SonsofVulkan wrote:
Infernal Tetra:

DP: MoK, Wings, 2xGR, warp Armor
DP: MoN, Wings, 1xGR, warp armor, baleful sword, lvl2
DP: MoT, Wings, 2xGR, Impossible Robe, lvl3
DP: MoS, Wings, 1xGR, warp armor, Lash, lvl3

Daemon Lord:
Belakor

CAD:
Herald of Nurgle: Bell

3xnurglings
3xnurglings

Bastion: Comms relay

This would be a decent ITC list that I would take, given how powerful shriek is now at least in the ITC. Belakor would cast shroud, giving every prince 2+ jink and invis on another for added protection.

5 shrieks with bell could potentially down one or two flyrants in one psychic phase. Picking apart deathstars that lack decent invuln easily. 5x5 wulfens even with SS will get whittle down fast.

You mean 4 Shrieks, right?

Give the Khorne DP the Armor of Scorn.

Just FYI, but I'm not sure how ITC is ruling Shriek yet. Eventually, they will most likely adopt the GW FAQ's....when they become official. But for now, I don't believe they auto-hit yet unless the TO of the tournament says they will be running the un-official GW FAQ's. Then again, re-rolling 1's makes Shriek pretty much auto-hit anyways.

Personally, I have not had much success getting Shriek off in my Daemon armies. Needing at least 2 dice to cast with a 25% chance of failure and then with bugs denying on 5+ with 10+D6 dice (for a Pentyrant build) makes Shriek somewhat unreliable. Then again, I suppose it's the best that Daemons can do against flyrant-spam.

 jy2 wrote:

 SonsofVulkan wrote:
Infernal Tetra:

DP: MoK, Wings, 2xGR, warp Armor
DP: MoN, Wings, 1xGR, warp armor, baleful sword, lvl2
DP: MoT, Wings, 2xGR, Impossible Robe, lvl3
DP: MoS, Wings, 1xGR, warp armor, Lash, lvl3

Daemon Lord:
Belakor

CAD:
Herald of Nurgle: Bell

3xnurglings
3xnurglings

Bastion: Comms relay

This would be a decent ITC list that I would take, given how powerful shriek is now at least in the ITC. Belakor would cast shroud, giving every prince 2+ jink and invis on another for added protection.

5 shrieks with bell could potentially down one or two flyrants in one psychic phase. Picking apart deathstars that lack decent invuln easily. 5x5 wulfens even with SS will get whittle down fast.

You mean 4 Shrieks, right?

Give the Khorne DP the Armor of Scorn.

Just FYI, but I'm not sure how ITC is ruling Shriek yet. Eventually, they will most likely adopt the GW FAQ's....when they become official. But for now, I don't believe they auto-hit yet unless the TO of the tournament says they will be running the un-official GW FAQ's. Then again, re-rolling 1's makes Shriek pretty much auto-hit anyways.

Personally, I have not had much success getting Shriek off in my Daemon armies. Needing at least 2 dice to cast with a 25% chance of failure and then with bugs denying on 5+ with 10+D6 dice (for a Pentyrant build) makes Shriek somewhat unreliable. Then again, I suppose it's the best that Daemons can do against flyrant-spam.

Yeah 4 shrieks, typo. Why wouldnt ITC adopt GW Faq if it became official, its not like auto hitting shriek is broken. Honestly turn 1 Tetra don't even need to throw out too many offense, main thing is to get all the buffs up(hopefully also endurance) and maybe summon a unit of plague bearers to sit on a obj. Goal is to out score Nids in maelstrom which Tetra should have a better advantage. Survive turn 1 shooting by also staying out of LOS and/or range. Turn 2 is when Tetra actually go on offense with vector strikes, lash, shrieks and etc. I'm pretty sure Tetra can beat Pentyrant list given equal player skills just by winning Maelstrom and can easily at least tie primary. Pentyrant is no longer a tough list to beat anymore in ITC.

And you mentioned many times about a Top list is a list that can do well on average against most other top lists in a GT. The armies that you posted are not part of the current top meta and neither are they popular, so even if some of them can out right beat Tetra should not be used to judge whether or not Tetra is a tier 1 or 2 army.

So lets look at the current top meta... base on previous GT numbers over 50% of top 16 are Eldars. Tetra will beat down scatter bike spam easily as long they don't get alpha striked, Tetra with Belakor owns a WK quite easily, Warp spider spam(one of the most dominant in ITC) can't do crap to DPs., The lack of anti-cover really put Eldar on a disadvantage.

What else? Riptide wing and Storm surges? No problem!

Triple IK: Good thing I got belakor and hopefully roll Iron arm for the lash prince. Goal is to out score them on maelstrom and objectives.

Gladius: May struggle on obj heavy ITC missions and getting unlucky on maelstrom rolls... basically don't let them run away on the maelstrom.

SM Bike deathstars: DA+SW, shrieks hurt them and hopefully getting S10 lashes to ID Thunderwolves. All about positioning and the right angles to pick off models from the death star. Azrael+Veil for re-rollerable 4++ isn't that bad.

Tetra is a tier 1 army if a player knows how to win with it.... like Alan Bajra

Symbiode wrote:
I made some data cards to keep rewards straight for each prince, they're below if anyone finds them useful. Any feedback on additional things to put on the cards would be great too, I just got all my princes together yesterday so I haven't gotten a chance to use them yet and see exactly what I need.

http://imgur.com/eJ20Kqi

Nicely done, and thank you for sharing! :-)

 SonsofVulkan wrote:
Infernal Tetra:

DP: MoK, Wings, 2xGR, warp Armor
DP: MoN, Wings, 1xGR, warp armor, baleful sword, lvl2
DP: MoT, Wings, 2xGR, Impossible Robe, lvl3
DP: MoS, Wings, 1xGR, warp armor, Lash, lvl3

Daemon Lord:
Belakor

CAD:
Herald of Nurgle: Bell

3xnurglings
3xnurglings

Bastion: Comms relay

I think you are onto something here. I'm not 100% sold on Be'lakor. In my games, he is always the first targeted and the first killed. While he does have the 2+ jink, he lacks greater rewards, which can greatly increase the durability of the other princes. If something ignores cover, hes only a 4++.
4 wounds at T5 is just not all that hard for most armies. I know, its anecdotal evidence, but my experience with Be'lakor has been underwhelming. Replacing him with a LoC or BT you could throw 2 greaters on would go a long way IMHO.

And, like jy2 mentioned, give the khorne prince armor of scorn.

 labmouse42 wrote:

 SonsofVulkan wrote:
Infernal Tetra:

DP: MoK, Wings, 2xGR, warp Armor
DP: MoN, Wings, 1xGR, warp armor, baleful sword, lvl2
DP: MoT, Wings, 2xGR, Impossible Robe, lvl3
DP: MoS, Wings, 1xGR, warp armor, Lash, lvl3

Daemon Lord:
Belakor

CAD:
Herald of Nurgle: Bell

3xnurglings
3xnurglings

Bastion: Comms relay

I think you are onto something here. I'm not 100% sold on Be'lakor. In my games, he is always the first targeted and the first killed. While he does have the 2+ jink, he lacks greater rewards, which can greatly increase the durability of the other princes. If something ignores cover, hes only a 4++.
4 wounds at T5 is just not all that hard for most armies. I know, its anecdotal evidence, but my experience with Be'lakor has been underwhelming. Replacing him with a LoC or BT you could throw 2 greaters on would go a long way IMHO.

And, like jy2 mentioned, give the khorne prince armor of scorn.

Yeah def armor of scorn, I made this list quite quickly. The bastion can be downgraded to save points, I'm sure it's quite easy to hide a unit of nurglings out of LOS, might be risky against sky hammer tho.

Belakor is a better force multiplier to make the tetra more survivable. He should be swooping most of the time. Depending on the match up, if the opponent has stuff that can skyfire+ignore cover(not many), then it's important for Bela to cast invis on himself and and keeping him out of LOS until Tetra can focus down the threats.

 SonsofVulkan wrote:
Belakor is a better force multiplier to make the tetra more survivable. He should be swooping most of the time. Depending on the match up, if the opponent has stuff that can skyfire+ignore cover(not many), then it's important for Bela to cast invis on himself and and keeping him out of LOS until Tetra can focus down the threats.

For the points I would rather take a LoC or BT. Heck, since you will be moving your tetrad forward on turn one, even deep striking a KoS or GuO is an option. Let me explain why. 2/3 of the armies I've faced are gunlines of one sort or another. In these cases my opponent sets up as far back as possible from my princes. At best I'm in hammer and anvil only 33" away, but in hammerhead or vanguard it can be further.

This means often on turn 1 I am swooping all 4 princes forward to close the gap as much as possible. Since I won't be assaulting until turn 3 anyway, I might as well make it harder to hurt me on that turn. This also lets me get in a few shrieks or maybe a lash. On turn two I go into glide and use buffs to set myself up as strongly as possible.

This is where Be'Lakor is really useful, as he can guarantee that your army is well protected from that barrage by giving them shrouded. If your opponent cannot ignore cover, then it's a great trick. Even against most Tau armies, they will only be removing cover from 1-2 models as they tend to clump all their markerlights. However, this is almost always the turn where Be'Lakor has died or been seriously hurt. That Tau player puts markerlights on him, or the Eldar player casts 'Reveal', the Marine player uses Hunters Eye...etc... If Be'Lakor manages to survive he's now really hurt and dies quickly in combat.

The problem is Be'Lakor is extremely fragile. Without a 3+ save and/or greater and T5, he just falls. Honestly, I might try a KoS or GUO deep striking in on turn 2. With fleet and +3" run, the KoS has a better chance of gettinging into assault over a GUO. The GUO is very tough, and with the right rewards and powers becomes very hard to dislodge (minus stomp)

I agree. I used to play Be'Lakor all the time because he's really good, but in the last couple years his sustainability decreased a lot. Armies got more ignore cover, more shooting, etc... but he stayed 2+ cover, and with only 4W he's not that tough.

Personnally, I would vote for a LoC. Give him lvl3 and Paradox and he's now a big force multiplier in the psychic phase. Garanteed summon or 4D6 flicker fire on 5 dice is huge, or even prescience on 3 dice. Plus with the freed points you can bump the nurgle prince lvl3.


Kairos is also always a good option.

 labmouse42 wrote:

 SonsofVulkan wrote:
Belakor is a better force multiplier to make the tetra more survivable. He should be swooping most of the time. Depending on the match up, if the opponent has stuff that can skyfire+ignore cover(not many), then it's important for Bela to cast invis on himself and and keeping him out of LOS until Tetra can focus down the threats.

For the points I would rather take a LoC or BT. Heck, since you will be moving your tetrad forward on turn one, even deep striking a KoS or GuO is an option. Let me explain why. 2/3 of the armies I've faced are gunlines of one sort or another. In these cases my opponent sets up as far back as possible from my princes. At best I'm in hammer and anvil only 33" away, but in hammerhead or vanguard it can be further.

This means often on turn 1 I am swooping all 4 princes forward to close the gap as much as possible. Since I won't be assaulting until turn 3 anyway, I might as well make it harder to hurt me on that turn. This also lets me get in a few shrieks or maybe a lash. On turn two I go into glide and use buffs to set myself up as strongly as possible.

This is where Be'Lakor is really useful, as he can guarantee that your army is well protected from that barrage by giving them shrouded. If your opponent cannot ignore cover, then it's a great trick. Even against most Tau armies, they will only be removing cover from 1-2 models as they tend to clump all their markerlights. However, this is almost always the turn where Be'Lakor has died or been seriously hurt. That Tau player puts markerlights on him, or the Eldar player casts 'Reveal', the Marine player uses Hunters Eye...etc... If Be'Lakor manages to survive he's now really hurt and dies quickly in combat.

The problem is Be'Lakor is extremely fragile. Without a 3+ save and/or greater and T5, he just falls. Honestly, I might try a KoS or GUO deep striking in on turn 2. With fleet and +3" run, the KoS has a better chance of gettinging into assault over a GUO. The GUO is very tough, and with the right rewards and powers becomes very hard to dislodge (minus stomp)

Turn 2 Belakor should still be swooping while the rest of tetras go glide mode. So they gonna snapshot a bunch of market lights at Bela? Ok no problem, one of the other DP should have cursed earth casted. Tau will still have to focus a lot of snapshots and not many riptide wings take the skyfire upgrade and even if they do they still hit at BS1 if bela has invis.

You guys are not thinking top GT TAC list building which is what Jy is talking about. So because couple armies can ignore cover, you wouldn't take Bela and end up making your princes susceptible to mass scatter lasers and etc? Without consistent shrouding and/or invis, DoS and DoK will get blown out easily before they even get a chance to assault against many top GT armies. You can't stack cursed earths any more!

Plus the fact Belakor has built-in EW is worth a lot. You can easily send him against a Wraithknight thanks to having a Fleshbane weapon, and they'd have to kill him reliably by rolling a 6 on Stomp. That's not bad with the Invisibility and Psychic Shriek stuff going on as well.

 SonsofVulkan wrote:
Turn 2 Belakor should still be swooping while the rest of tetras go glide mode. So they gonna snapshot a bunch of market lights at Bela? Ok no problem, one of the other DP should have cursed earth casted. Tau will still have to focus a lot of snapshots and not many riptide wings take the skyfire upgrade and even if they do they still hit at BS1 if bela has invis.

So your paying 350 points for a model to stay in swooping mode and just use shrieks or invis? That's not an effective use of points.

 SonsofVulkan wrote:
You guys are not thinking top GT TAC list building which is what Jy is talking about. So because couple armies can ignore cover, you wouldn't take Bela and end up making your princes susceptible to mass scatter lasers and etc? Without consistent shrouding and/or invis, DoS and DoK will get blown out easily before they even get a chance to assault against many top GT armies. You can't stack cursed earths any more!

Try some games with a Tetrad before making such blanket statements. It's highly dependent on many factors.
Last weekend I played against 7 riptide list, and he managed to kill 1 DP before he was tabled. I've shoved the Tetrad down many eldar players throats wiped them, which works especially well since the tetrad is nearly immune to spiders. I've also been tabled on turn 2 by Eldar with bad psychic defenses and bad rewards.

If you find Be'Lakor works for you, use him. I tried him a number of times and found it lacking. A really good idea that you have is the bastion and deep striking if you don't get turn one. I think there is a lot of potential there.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Plus the fact Belakor has built-in EW is worth a lot. You can easily send him against a Wraithknight thanks to having a Fleshbane weapon, and they'd have to kill him reliably by rolling a 6 on Stomp. That's not bad with the Invisibility and Psychic Shriek stuff going on as well.

There is a ~30% every combat round of a that stomp roll of 6 being rolled. A sword and board knight will probably kill Be'Lakor before he can kill the knight.

The nurgle and khorne prince have been my go-to for taking down the knight. The nurgle prince with the balesword, which does D3 wounds a hit and ignores FNP is really strong. The khorne prince is also ID'ing on 6s with an Axe of Khorne. If the WK is not in cover, it will likely die before it can swing -- especially if the nurgle prince got Iron Arm or Warp Speed.

Edit : To re-iterate, the Tetrad list is not a tier 1. Your biggest problem are just bad games, which happen. Over the course of 5-6 games your really likely to have that one game where things fall apart. In one day event's I've won small RTTs with the tetrad. All it takes is 3 good games in a row.
The tetrad also had a harder time in ITC games where it's usually progessive scoring. Keeping control on Objective 1 or 2 can be hard when your opponent is on objective 3, and can cost you maelstrom points.

Nobody takes the Sword Wraithknight most of the time. That 30% chance is something I'd definitely take, especially with Invisibility negating that sword essentially and having Shriek standard.

agree with labmouse, any demon list so tetrad also is dependent by dice when you roll rewards and psy powers, but when you get average dice you can seriously kick some asses, i got a nice feedback from tetrad, i m just more warp charge oriented so usually i play old flyng circus with about 14 WC, or tetrad with CAD and couple of heralds/horrors for more charges and some obj sec troops, that could help in maelstrom missions.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Nobody takes the Sword Wraithknight most of the time. That 30% chance is something I'd definitely take, especially with Invisibility negating that sword essentially and having Shriek standard.

Last time I checked the sword wraithknight is the superior WK (of the codex variants at least) because you get 4 D attacks each player turn and a 5++ instead of just 2 D attacks on your shooting phase

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Nobody takes the Sword Wraithknight most of the time. That 30% chance is something I'd definitely take, especially with Invisibility negating that sword essentially and having Shriek standard.

What region of the country are you playing in? I'm playing in the New England area, and I see quite a few of them. I also played with one when I was playing Eldar b/c it's the best in the ITC format.

 CrownAxe wrote:
Last time I checked the sword wraithknight is the superior WK (of the codex variants at least) because you get 4 D attacks each player turn and a 5++ instead of just 2 D attacks on your shooting phase

That 5++ is huge. Most of the time when weapons are wounding the knight, it's not getting a save anyway. That 5++ increases it's 'time to live' by 50%.

 labmouse42 wrote:

 SonsofVulkan wrote:
Turn 2 Belakor should still be swooping while the rest of tetras go glide mode. So they gonna snapshot a bunch of market lights at Bela? Ok no problem, one of the other DP should have cursed earth casted. Tau will still have to focus a lot of snapshots and not many riptide wings take the skyfire upgrade and even if they do they still hit at BS1 if bela has invis.

So your paying 350 points for a model to stay in swooping mode and just use shrieks or invis? That's not an effective use of points.

 SonsofVulkan wrote:
You guys are not thinking top GT TAC list building which is what Jy is talking about. So because couple armies can ignore cover, you wouldn't take Bela and end up making your princes susceptible to mass scatter lasers and etc? Without consistent shrouding and/or invis, DoS and DoK will get blown out easily before they even get a chance to assault against many top GT armies. You can't stack cursed earths any more!

Try some games with a Tetrad before making such blanket statements. It's highly dependent on many factors.
Last weekend I played against 7 riptide list, and he managed to kill 1 DP before he was tabled. I've shoved the Tetrad down many eldar players throats wiped them, which works especially well since the tetrad is nearly immune to spiders. I've also been tabled on turn 2 by Eldar with bad psychic defenses and bad rewards.

If you find Be'Lakor works for you, use him. I tried him a number of times and found it lacking. A really good idea that you have is the bastion and deep striking if you don't get turn one. I think there is a lot of potential there.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Plus the fact Belakor has built-in EW is worth a lot. You can easily send him against a Wraithknight thanks to having a Fleshbane weapon, and they'd have to kill him reliably by rolling a 6 on Stomp. That's not bad with the Invisibility and Psychic Shriek stuff going on as well.

There is a ~30% every combat round of a that stomp roll of 6 being rolled. A sword and board knight will probably kill Be'Lakor before he can kill the knight.

The nurgle and khorne prince have been my go-to for taking down the knight. The nurgle prince with the balesword, which does D3 wounds a hit and ignores FNP is really strong. The khorne prince is also ID'ing on 6s with an Axe of Khorne. If the WK is not in cover, it will likely die before it can swing -- especially if the nurgle prince got Iron Arm or Warp Speed.

Edit : To re-iterate, the Tetrad list is not a tier 1. Your biggest problem are just bad games, which happen. Over the course of 5-6 games your really likely to have that one game where things fall apart. In one day event's I've won small RTTs with the tetrad. All it takes is 3 good games in a row.
The tetrad also had a harder time in ITC games where it's usually progessive scoring. Keeping control on Objective 1 or 2 can be hard when your opponent is on objective 3, and can cost you maelstrom points.

No I wouldnt pay 350 to keep Belakor in the air, its there because its good in combat and for the guarantee invis/shrouding powers. But against certain few armies that can ignore cover, why wouldnt I keep it in the air and/or cast invis on it.

I have plenty of experience with the classic flying circus variants, those DPs are no where as resilient as Tetra and Belakor was one of the factors that help keep Fatey and other DPs alive. And with Belakor, Tetra DPs are even more resilient and can fully dedicate their psychic powers to biomancy or malefic(if shriek is not needed).

All I can say is I never got tabled by anybody in a tourney

 SonsofVulkan wrote:

Yeah 4 shrieks, typo. Why wouldnt ITC adopt GW Faq if it became official, its not like auto hitting shriek is broken. Honestly turn 1 Tetra don't even need to throw out too many offense, main thing is to get all the buffs up(hopefully also endurance) and maybe summon a unit of plague bearers to sit on a obj. Goal is to out score Nids in maelstrom which Tetra should have a better advantage. Survive turn 1 shooting by also staying out of LOS and/or range. Turn 2 is when Tetra actually go on offense with vector strikes, lash, shrieks and etc. I'm pretty sure Tetra can beat Pentyrant list given equal player skills just by winning Maelstrom and can easily at least tie primary. Pentyrant is no longer a tough list to beat anymore in ITC.

And you mentioned many times about a Top list is a list that can do well on average against most other top lists in a GT. The armies that you posted are not part of the current top meta and neither are they popular, so even if some of them can out right beat Tetra should not be used to judge whether or not Tetra is a tier 1 or 2 army.

So lets look at the current top meta... base on previous GT numbers over 50% of top 16 are Eldars. Tetra will beat down scatter bike spam easily as long they don't get alpha striked, Tetra with Belakor owns a WK quite easily, Warp spider spam(one of the most dominant in ITC) can't do crap to DPs., The lack of anti-cover really put Eldar on a disadvantage.

What else? Riptide wing and Storm surges? No problem!

Triple IK: Good thing I got belakor and hopefully roll Iron arm for the lash prince. Goal is to out score them on maelstrom and objectives.

Gladius: May struggle on obj heavy ITC missions and getting unlucky on maelstrom rolls... basically don't let them run away on the maelstrom.

SM Bike deathstars: DA+SW, shrieks hurt them and hopefully getting S10 lashes to ID Thunderwolves. All about positioning and the right angles to pick off models from the death star. Azrael+Veil for re-rollerable 4++ isn't that bad.

Tetra is a tier 1 army if a player knows how to win with it.... like Alan Bajra

BTW, just FYI, but it is Tetrad, not Tetra. Everytime you say that, I think of the Tau.

My lists are just some examples of lists that will potentially give the Tetrad some problems. They might not be proven lists but they do have the tools to deal with many of the other top lists. The Tetrad can still beat top lists, especially if the general is savvy enough. However, they are playing with with several disadvantages inherent to such a Daemon build:

1. They lack any mitigation for the Warpstorm. Unless you run Fateweaver or the Tallyband, this type of list is more susceptible to the Warpstorm than other Daemon lists.

2. Scoring on Maelstrom. A flyer-heavy list will always be at an inherent disadvantage in Progressive or Maelstrom objectives. The stronger the ground presence, the better the list is in terms of Maelstrom objectives. To play the Maelstroms, the Tetrad will have to rely on Summoning but then that runs counter to them stacking buffs on themselves. Yes, the DP's can stay in Gliding mode but oftentimes, they can't be relied on to sit on objectives because they need to be pushed aggressively towards the opponent's forces.

3. Board control. While the Tetrad is a good board control army, it still really can't stand up to the board-control ability of a true Deathstar build or tarpit armies. That is one of the problems against armies such as my Daemons or Wulfen army. They lack the board control ability against these types of armies, but they also do not have decent shooting to fall back upon either.

4. Unfavorable Gifts and/or Psychic Powers. To be fair, this is a problem of ALL Daemon builds, not just the Tetrad. Get the right gift/power, any Daemon army can be top-tier. Don't get the right powers? Well, we've all gone through that before.....

5. They are more susceptible to counter-matchups than a lot of other armies. The main offense of the army is Assault. However, what happens when it goes up against an army that is better in Assault or that has the resiliency to survive their Assault? The Tetrad cannot rely on shooting as a fallback strategy. Thus, they lose a lot of their options and now have to find another way of winning. Normally, the Tetrad would have a Plan A and a Plan B to win. Now, it's only got a Plan B. Inherently, the Tetrad will have to be playing with a handicap against such armies and it does this more frequently than many of the other top tournament lists.


With some luck, you can still do well with the Tetrad. More power to Alan if that is what he is currently running (though in my opinion, I don't see him running it at the larger GT's). However, just like Pentyrant Tyranids, such an army is more matchup dependent than normal and I just don't see it as being reliable enough to win a large event or even to win consistently against other top lists.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Nobody takes the Sword Wraithknight most of the time. That 30% chance is something I'd definitely take, especially with Invisibility negating that sword essentially and having Shriek standard.

I actually like the Sword-&-Board version better than the double-wraithcannon variety, especially in the ITC format. Eldar has plenty of D shooting already. I value the WK for his board control ability more.

As for the FW variety, well, I really don't have very much experience with them so I can't say for sure.

Might not win a GT, but most likely at least top 8 pending match ups. Eldar, SM death stars, and Gladius will probably continue to dominate the top 5 at any GT

Hmm so my feedback after a tournament is:
I needed more practice with this list against tough opponents before bringing it to a tournament!

I ended up with 3 wins and 2 losses over 5 games, but one of them doesn't really count because the opponent's list was very easy, and the two other wins could easily have swung the other way if I'd made one or two less Feel No Pain rolls.


Practice Game 1: Vs a Guard Tank Company.
I got first turn, got all the buffs I needed, and proceeded to wreck face. I tabled him on top of 3 and lost only 3 hounds to the one turn of shooting I allowed him before getting in to combat. It was fun to see the Slaanesh Prince put out 12 S10 shots with his whip and destroy Pask + Friends in one go, but it wasn't a good learning experience.

Game 1: VS Eldar. Maxed Seer Council, Wraithknight, 3x 6 Scatterbikes, 6x 5 Warp Spiders
This was a game against a very good general that I've had close games with before, but that wasn't the case today. He took first turn, and used his superior range + mobility to stay at absolute max range where I couldn't catch him. A 6 on the destroyer chart took out the Warlord with his 2++ rerollable, and he had enough psychic dice to deny the critical powers when I needed to cast them.
If I had the game again I think I would have taken to the air in T1 with all my princes and shrieked the scatter bikes off the board before landing and trying to do combat with the remainder.

Game 2 vs Eldar + Marines. 4 Grav Devestators + Libby in a pod, 3x 4 Scatterbikes, Wraithflamers in a Waveserpent, 6 x Warp Spiders.
He got first turn and lands the pod next to my Slaanesh Prince. It soaks up nearly his whole army's worth of shooting before dying.
I buff up and counterattack, but my nurgle prince is in a bad spot for the Wraithguard to get him next turn. Without whip from the Slaanesh Prince I have only a tiny bit of shooting and can't manage to take out the Waveserpent.
The nurgle prince gets flamered to death next turn.
For the rest of the game I chase him around the table, generally *just* missing out on killing a unit per turn on the charge and thus not taking much return fire. The Khorne prince goes down in T4, but by that time he has only 2 squads of spiders left alive.

Game 3 vs Dark Eldar with lots of venoms, raiders and flyers
Still no first turn, but a host of good powers this game. All the objectives were up his end of the board, which was good for me.
I made good use of Cursed Earth this game, with the Tzeentch prince failing all his attempted charges in to combat and just being a buff-bot all game.
I had a few turns where I soaked a truly ridiculous amount of firepower; a squad of horrors took 0 wounds from 2 venoms and a bomber shooting at them, and the Slaanesh Prince especially got caught in the open but made his 4+ FNP saves count and managed to survive on a single wound; he then charged some Kabalites and regained them all! This was a regular opponent of mine so I knew how to take him on. I surrendered my back field early (all the objectives were up his end) and tactically summoned flamers in to roast the transport contents.

Game 4 vs Iron Hands bikes + centurions / Knight / Admech
Well this was a massacre.
Turn 1 he pods in 2 centurion squads which wipe out the Khorne and Slaanesh princes.
Nurgle prince charges one squad of cents and wipes them out (this was probably a mistake!) I put Iron Arm + Cursed Earth on the Tzeentch Prince, prescience on the Screamers, and charge his knight - and do a total of 3 hullpoints, before getting 6'd on a stomp. Ouch.
He takes out the Nurgle prince even through 2+ jink & 4+ FNP, and we call it there before my turn 2.

Wow. When I was running the Nurgle Prince list last year I purposefully didn't take armor - and twice today I've been undone by my decision to take armour on the princes. OTOH I also got saved by that decision in the other games.
I probably should have reserved one or both of the armored princes, but without reserve manipulation I wasn't really game for that strategy. I probably could have held on a bit longer by:
- not charging the knight. I figured with 7 S10 attacks and 7 Armourbane attacks I could take it down, but it didn't happen. The screamers could have charged and held him up for a turn while the warlord took out a bike squad or 3.
- Multicharging with the hounds + Nurgle prince against the cents + pod so I could purposefully not wipe them out and stay in combat for an extra turn before moving on to the bikes.

Trasvi wrote:

Spoiler:

Hmm so my feedback after a tournament is:
I needed more practice with this list against tough opponents before bringing it to a tournament!

I ended up with 3 wins and 2 losses over 5 games, but one of them doesn't really count because the opponent's list was very easy, and the two other wins could easily have swung the other way if I'd made one or two less Feel No Pain rolls.


Practice Game 1: Vs a Guard Tank Company.
I got first turn, got all the buffs I needed, and proceeded to wreck face. I tabled him on top of 3 and lost only 3 hounds to the one turn of shooting I allowed him before getting in to combat. It was fun to see the Slaanesh Prince put out 12 S10 shots with his whip and destroy Pask + Friends in one go, but it wasn't a good learning experience.

Game 1: VS Eldar. Maxed Seer Council, Wraithknight, 3x 6 Scatterbikes, 6x 5 Warp Spiders
This was a game against a very good general that I've had close games with before, but that wasn't the case today. He took first turn, and used his superior range + mobility to stay at absolute max range where I couldn't catch him. A 6 on the destroyer chart took out the Warlord with his 2++ rerollable, and he had enough psychic dice to deny the critical powers when I needed to cast them.
If I had the game again I think I would have taken to the air in T1 with all my princes and shrieked the scatter bikes off the board before landing and trying to do combat with the remainder.

Game 2 vs Eldar + Marines. 4 Grav Devestators + Libby in a pod, 3x 4 Scatterbikes, Wraithflamers in a Waveserpent, 6 x Warp Spiders.
He got first turn and lands the pod next to my Slaanesh Prince. It soaks up nearly his whole army's worth of shooting before dying.
I buff up and counterattack, but my nurgle prince is in a bad spot for the Wraithguard to get him next turn. Without whip from the Slaanesh Prince I have only a tiny bit of shooting and can't manage to take out the Waveserpent.
The nurgle prince gets flamered to death next turn.
For the rest of the game I chase him around the table, generally *just* missing out on killing a unit per turn on the charge and thus not taking much return fire. The Khorne prince goes down in T4, but by that time he has only 2 squads of spiders left alive.

Game 3 vs Dark Eldar with lots of venoms, raiders and flyers
Still no first turn, but a host of good powers this game. All the objectives were up his end of the board, which was good for me.
I made good use of Cursed Earth this game, with the Tzeentch prince failing all his attempted charges in to combat and just being a buff-bot all game.
I had a few turns where I soaked a truly ridiculous amount of firepower; a squad of horrors took 0 wounds from 2 venoms and a bomber shooting at them, and the Slaanesh Prince especially got caught in the open but made his 4+ FNP saves count and managed to survive on a single wound; he then charged some Kabalites and regained them all! This was a regular opponent of mine so I knew how to take him on. I surrendered my back field early (all the objectives were up his end) and tactically summoned flamers in to roast the transport contents.

Game 4 vs Iron Hands bikes + centurions / Knight / Admech
Well this was a massacre.
Turn 1 he pods in 2 centurion squads which wipe out the Khorne and Slaanesh princes.
Nurgle prince charges one squad of cents and wipes them out (this was probably a mistake!) I put Iron Arm + Cursed Earth on the Tzeentch Prince, prescience on the Screamers, and charge his knight - and do a total of 3 hullpoints, before getting 6'd on a stomp. Ouch.
He takes out the Nurgle prince even through 2+ jink & 4+ FNP, and we call it there before my turn 2.

Wow. When I was running the Nurgle Prince list last year I purposefully didn't take armor - and twice today I've been undone by my decision to take armour on the princes. OTOH I also got saved by that decision in the other games.
I probably should have reserved one or both of the armored princes, but without reserve manipulation I wasn't really game for that strategy. I probably could have held on a bit longer by:
- not charging the knight. I figured with 7 S10 attacks and 7 Armourbane attacks I could take it down, but it didn't happen. The screamers could have charged and held him up for a turn while the warlord took out a bike squad or 3.
- Multicharging with the hounds + Nurgle prince against the cents + pod so I could purposefully not wipe them out and stay in combat for an extra turn before moving on to the bikes.

Thanks for sharing.

The Tetrad does take some practice, especially against some of the tournament-styles of lists. That is because they are a less forgiving army than, say, Eldar or Battle Company.

Did the tournament use the new GW FAQ's? If so, did you feel that they made any difference in any of your games? Thanks.

 jy2 wrote:
Thanks for sharing.

The Tetrad does take some practice, especially against some of the tournament-styles of lists. That is because they are a less forgiving army than, say, Eldar or Battle Company.

Did the tournament use the new GW FAQ's? If so, did you feel that they made any difference in any of your games? Thanks.

No, the new FAQs weren't used. We used the AUS/NZ 40k FAQ which hasn't been updated.
That being said I don't think it made any difference. The only thing that really would have affected me was the Shriek change, and with effectively TL BS5 I managed to hit with all of them anyway.

I guess I just struggled with the 'delete 1 unit' abilities, which I guess is to be expected when you've essentially got only 4 units. Stomps are rough, D-Weapons are rough, suicide grav is rough. Even with all the buffs and gifts, tournament-level offensive armies won't struggle at all to take down at least one T6 3+ Sv MC per turn, and you're losing about a 20% of your army potential every time that happens. If you don't get first turn and need to weather 2 turns of fire before you get to combat...you'd better hope the remaining 2 can stay in combat for the rest of the game.