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I think that's right. They give up any decent CC ability when they take two weapons, which is usually okay as they want to be shooting rather than punching anyways.

Really interested in seeing what the codex brings to Ravenwing as they are definitely not in a great place right now. The range on melta means you have to gang up with many meltas to get a result, but I think a nephilim does the job better at range. Not sure if I'm going to add the AB to a regular melta sqd to increase melta options and add wounds.
I do like plasma bikes as they have the range to keep away until they need to get within 12" to unload with everything. Combi-plas is pretty reasonable too.

The maneuverability is something I have to use better. It's the only reason to take them over regular troopers, so need to isolate enemy units with massed Ravenwing. Bubble wrap is a serious issue though and I'm thinking that I may need to drop the pure Ravenwing thought and add some scouts to the mix.

Asmodai is competitive af. For Deathwing Knights, he provides the same bonuses as both Belial and Deathwing Ancient.

I agree with the rest of those unit evaluations and I'll update the op soonish.

Ravenwing will get a lot better with reduced price in future codex.

 axisofentropy wrote:
Asmodai is competitive af. For Deathwing Knights, he provides the same bonuses as both Belial and Deathwing Ancient.

Yes and no. His auras are very good, he himself, as a stand alone character is not very good at all, and I think that's what he was saying. Here is my thing, to run a LR, asmodai, and a 5 man squad of Knights, since Asmodai can't DS in with them, your looking at around 750+ points for those 7 models. I just don't think the cost justifies what your getting and how much damage they can do.

Asmodai is decent but I can't ever justify taking him. I think there are always better options. Really, competitively speaking, the only buff's we need to really worry about are Azrael/Lieutenant Primaris/Dark Shroud. I actually play without the Dark Shroud and do pretty well to be honest but if I had one or could find one I'd likely pick it up.

Outside of those you shouldn't need the rerolls in combat or the +1 attack. I'd rather bring a psyker or assassin for general utility. AND/OR I usually try and bring Ezekiel to be honest. He always does so much for me. Granted I do play alot of Chaos and Eldar so having psyker defense is important.

I have found Belial's and Sammael's re-rolls to be decisive. Even with humble Storm Bolters the re-roll can tip the balance, especially when you semd him in with two squads and set it up right. Makes opponents good and salty.

TangoTwoBravo wrote:
I have found Belial's and Sammael's re-rolls to be decisive. Even with humble Storm Bolters the re-roll can tip the balance, especially when you semd him in with two squads and set it up right. Makes opponents good and salty.

Yeah, I usually send Belial in with 3 squads of deathwing terms, 2 assault cannons, 1 cyclone, rest storm bolters and they can usually easily wipe a squad and a half of marines off DS. Then hopefully, your sitting on their flank and can just walk across their lines while the rest of your army pushes in from the front.

I do think if you waiver towards DW or RW then the named characters are a must for the same reason -- they have the appropriate delivery systems to make their buffs work. Bikes just seem so expensive right now for what they do, same with terminators. Though, hopefully the new bike will bring a little bit of a reduction.

bobafett012 wrote:

TangoTwoBravo wrote:
I have found Belial's and Sammael's re-rolls to be decisive. Even with humble Storm Bolters the re-roll can tip the balance, especially when you semd him in with two squads and set it up right. Makes opponents good and salty.

Yeah, I usually send Belial in with 3 squads of deathwing terms, 2 assault cannons, 1 cyclone, rest storm bolters and they can usually easily wipe a squad and a half of marines off DS. Then hopefully, your sitting on their flank and can just walk across their lines while the rest of your army pushes in from the front.

Itruly enjoy dropping 3x5 terminators in with Belial. 12 storm bolters and 3 assault cannons rerolling misses puts down the hurt on any target of medium durability or worse. Crowd control is not Deathwing's strength, but that's a nice way to clear a landing zone, especially with everyone running Conscripts and Cultists and Gaunts like they're going out of style. Like you said, that should be a sufficient force to anchor the flank while, in my case, a LR/Spartan with some DWK and characters rolls up to beat some face.

Switching gears a little, has anyone given a pure Dreadnought Azrael-star a try? I just dramatically increased my dreadnought supply, including a couple twin-las Mortis dudes, so I may give it a go. It seems like tossing in a couple las/CCW Dreads would be sufficient for melee control. Hordes would be a big problem, as would objective claiming. Maybe have some DWT for minor crowd control? Seems like a silly plan, but it might work!

The core of my current list is two venerable dreads with lascannon/fist/flamer and a pred annihilator, teamed up with Azrael and a primaris lieutenant for shooting efficiency. I usually rock two razorbacks as well for dakka and objective snagging. It is the part of the list I'm not sure I will change this edition. It has yet to let me down. The only other piece I'd really consider adding to this is a Dark Shroud if I could find one somewhere. That bubble would be uber efficient.

What I like about the balanced approach over the spammy versions is you get diversity and the ability to adapt. The dreads actually provide alot of deterrent from alpha strike lists that a backfield of preds would not and the predator adds that extra bit of punch you need to take the big targets down when the two dreads just can't cut it. I also usually put a dev squad in with a couple lascannons as well in there because my meta has alot of big targets more so than horde style armies. The razorbacks are generally kitted with twin assault cannons for the dakka but they can be used to punch through a few wounds on bigger targets if I need.

One thing I've found is being multi-purposed this edition isn't nearly as bad as it was last. It actually is super helpful a majority of the time. One game my chaos opponent had alot of my shooting and units tied up after deepstriking and combo charging etc. I had one freed up venerable dread who proceeded to take down a hellbrute in a combination of my shooting and combat, then got charged by a demon prince and chaos lord and proceeded to take both out as well. Hitting on 2's and wounding on 3's is a beautiful thing! The 4++ from AZZY is a main reason for this but it makes them fierce.

I've found that two TwinLas Razorbacks are usually better than one Predator Annihilator in most situations. The Predator isn't bad, mind you, but the Razorbacks combined have a lot more wounds and can split up to cover more objectives if needed.

 ZergSmasher wrote:
I've found that two TwinLas Razorbacks are usually better than one Predator Annihilator in most situations. The Predator isn't bad, mind you, but the Razorbacks combined have a lot more wounds and can split up to cover more objectives if needed.

Yes, Predators are terribly overcosted when Razorbacks are an option. Codex will likely grant Preds both a price drop and a very good strategem.

That's a fair point. I like it. I don't like that I now feel like I need more razorbacks lol

Widied wrote:
That's a fair point. I like it. I don't like that I now feel like I need more razorbacks lol

Razorbacks are one unit that was big in 7th (thanks to the Battle Company build) that works really well in 8th. I'm glad I happen to have a few sitting around, although these days I wish I had more with Assault Cannons.

I got one with my dark angels force and converted it to assault cannon right away. I'd really like one more! I want to roll with two. The one I have is great for last minute objective grabs. Dreadnoughts and Razorbacks are really solid choices this edition. I particularly like venerables; the 4++ and the ignore on 6's makes them realllly good. They are costly but almost always are worth it. They fill alot of rolls.

I still enjoy my predator; like you said it will never be bad. It attracts alot of attention and with Azzy's buff's can usually weather the storm. But one more razorback would be ideal for me. Their dakka is great.

So I need some help guys. My local store is kicking off an escalation league. It starts at 500 points but I can't seem to come up with a list that is worth anything. I was hoping y'all might have some ideas. I don't want to play ravenwing because I'm not really a fan of bikes this edition and DW is a no go so it will have to be greenwing. Other catch is you have to have an IC at the start but no named ones at first. The IC must be in all your armies throughout the league and they have a power up scheme so he can get better which I thought was pretty cool. Because of that, I think my HQ is going to be a librarian which can get stats change to add +1 cast and Deny the witch later (basically becoming Ezekiel minus the pistol and sword). But after the HQ choice I have no idea what else I can put in there for 500 points.

 ILegion wrote:
So I need some help guys. My local store is kicking off an escalation league. It starts at 500 points but I can't seem to come up with a list that is worth anything. I was hoping y'all might have some ideas. I don't want to play ravenwing because I'm not really a fan of bikes this edition and DW is a no go so it will have to be greenwing. Other catch is you have to have an IC at the start but no named ones at first. The IC must be in all your armies throughout the league and they have a power up scheme so he can get better which I thought was pretty cool. Because of that, I think my HQ is going to be a librarian which can get stats change to add +1 cast and Deny the witch later (basically becoming Ezekiel minus the pistol and sword). But after the HQ choice I have no idea what else I can put in there for 500 points.

Could go Primaris, take a Primaris Librarian, a couple of Intercessor Squads, and maybe some Hellblasters for heavy support. Alternatively, with non-Primaris take a couple of 5-man Tactical Squads in a Rhino, put your Librarian on a Bike, and take a Dreadnought or some Devastators for some heavy firepower.

I agree with Zerg. I'd probably lean towards the the primaris stuff until you get to around 1250 then maybe start thinking about using Azrael. Definitely use a venerable dread if you can fit it.

Thanks guys! So, for 500 points I have:

Libby on Bike w/force sword

2 x 5 man tacs

Dev squad 2xLC/2x ML

Rhino

I decided to go LC/ML on the dev squad because I know I'm going to see some green tides and nid hordes. I've realized at 500 points the DA feel kind of bland.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And none of my primaris stuff is put together yet : / or I'd probably go with them.

Hey guys! I need your help against my friends 1500point Grey Knights army. Any ideas of what to be careful, since i dont know much about them despite their smite spam.

Make sure you have a good screen for your gunline if that's what you're using. Lots of deep strike.

Noneisbackhere wrote:
Hey guys! I need your help against my friends 1500point Grey Knights army. Any ideas of what to be careful, since i dont know much about them despite their smite spam.

terminators are afraid of mortal wounds (smite) and weapons that do 2 damage with some AP like autocannons, overcharged plasma, grav guns, etc. Use scouts or conscripts to keep deep strikers away and then shoot them.

I would bring a Cullexus Assassin and Ezekiel (or a standard Libby). It is the psyker defense I bring quite often and it's really efficient. And like someone else said make sure you bring enough units to make a screen so that you can force deepstrikers to appear in front of your whole army.

 axisofentropy wrote:

Noneisbackhere wrote:
Hey guys! I need your help against my friends 1500point Grey Knights army. Any ideas of what to be careful, since i dont know much about them despite their smite spam.

terminators are afraid of mortal wounds (smite) and weapons that do 2 damage with some AP like autocannons, overcharged plasma, grav guns, etc. Use scouts or conscripts to keep deep strikers away and then shoot them.

Definitely scouts at minimum but like axis said, conscripts to and they may work better, especially with a commissar in their for morale checks. If I know my opponent has a lot of deep striking stuff I usually deploy my gunline, then razorbacks 5-9" away from them then use the scouts ability to deploy them about 8" away from the razorbacks. Don't forget that they can still use gate of infinity to later in game.

Thanks for the tips guys!!
First let me say that i decided to go with:
Battalion+vanguard:
1xAzrael
1xPrimaris Lieutenent
1xBelial
2x 5intercessors- Stalker bolt rifles
1x 5tactical-plasma can
2x5 Reivers combat knifes
1x5 DW knights
2x Venerable Dreadnoughts twin las/CW/flamers

We rolled Cleanse and Capture and deployed in a bit of a bubble Azrael+PL+x2Venerable+1x5Intercessors.With some luck i seized so my 2xVenerables did some dmg on the Stormraven and my Reivers screened the whole bubble.Eventually i was a bit lucky with the Objectives and my Azrael bubble did awesome. I'm really impressed by the Reivers. Their close combat-2wounds are really brutal. Azrael was once more an outstanding presence with the Venerables killing the whole squad of Paladins +Apothecary. The only big threats Dreadknight was downed by my Reivers+Belial/Knights and Voldus bombed himself with Perils

Glad to hear it worked out. I've been wondering how the reivers were. That was a bit of luck with voldus haha.

Noneisbackhere wrote:
Thanks for the tips guys!!
First let me say that i decided to go with:
Battalion+vanguard:
1xAzrael
1xPrimaris Lieutenent
1xBelial
2x 5intercessors- Stalker bolt rifles
1x 5tactical-plasma can
2x5 Reivers combat knifes
1x5 DW knights
2x Venerable Dreadnoughts twin las/CW/flamers

We rolled Cleanse and Capture and deployed in a bit of a bubble Azrael+PL+x2Venerable+1x5Intercessors.With some luck i seized so my 2xVenerables did some dmg on the Stormraven and my Reivers screened the whole bubble.Eventually i was a bit lucky with the Objectives and my Azrael bubble did awesome. I'm really impressed by the Reivers. Their close combat-2wounds are really brutal. Azrael was once more an outstanding presence with the Venerables killing the whole squad of Paladins +Apothecary. The only big threats Dreadknight was downed by my Reivers+Belial/Knights and Voldus bombed himself with Perils

Interesting list for sure. Why the Stalker rifles on the Intercessors? Reading the profiles for the weapons, I'd usually go with regular Bolt Rifles every time myself. Good to hear that Reivers are good; I have yet to try mine out. The models are cool, at least. Do you feel that DW Knights really helped you in this game, or do you think you might have done just as well or even better with regular DW termies? My instinct always says never to deepstrike Knights as they will fail their charge more often than not even with a command reroll.

I have been bringing a unit of even regular terminators to most games recently and they consistently under perform sadly. I'm pretty sure I'm removing them in favor of another razorback and some sort of marines to go in it. Better overall mobility and shooting. I have some knights I've been sitting on playing. They seem so limited in ability. Sure, they shred in combat... which is one phase of the game... so I can never be convinced to bring them. Though maybe I will give them a shot next league night.

Hey guys,

A few questions regarding some model options I'm thinking of if you can advise.
Basically I've come across some marine bodies I'd had laying around, so pulled out my DA bits box to make use of these.
I've got 5 legs and bodies to work with.
I have a Multi Melta and Missile Launcher, which I think will be two (already have 2PlasGun, 2PlasCan, 2Las, 2HB).

Then I've got these three others, that I could make up some alternate Company Masters or something for variance (just have one with Power Sword and Bolter).
How is everyone running their CM's?
I've got Mauls, Swords, Shield, Plasma pistols etc to build from.

Also, does anyone use a company master with jump pack? And if so, what would you equip him with?

Final question, Deathwing unit of five, power sword with 4 fists, and assault Cannon with 4 storm bolters.
Does anyone use that setup?

Thanks for any help you can give!

Danny76 wrote:
Hey guys,

A few questions regarding some model options I'm thinking of if you can advise.
Basically I've come across some marine bodies I'd had laying around, so pulled out my DA bits box to make use of these.
I've got 5 legs and bodies to work with.
I have a Multi Melta and Missile Launcher, which I think will be two (already have 2PlasGun, 2PlasCan, 2Las, 2HB).

Then I've got these three others, that I could make up some alternate Company Masters or something for variance (just have one with Power Sword and Bolter).
How is everyone running their CM's?
I've got Mauls, Swords, Shield, Plasma pistols etc to build from.

Also, does anyone use a company master with jump pack? And if so, what would you equip him with?

Final question, Deathwing unit of five, power sword with 4 fists, and assault Cannon with 4 storm bolters.
Does anyone use that setup?

Thanks for any help you can give!

I think a Power Fist could do some work on a CM. The -1 to hit is somewhat offset by the fact that a CM's Weapon Skill is 2+ and he rerolls 1's. Take that and a combi-weapon (probably Plasma) and go crazy! Also, I wish I had one with a Jump Pack, so I say go for it if you want one like that. He can drop in wherever and whenever he's needed rather than having to deploy with the rest of the army. Could give you some tactical flexibility on where you need the ability to reroll 1's.

On the Deathwing, I use that setup almost exclusively. It works well while not being too expensive (for termies anyways). I sometimes swap in a Chainfist on one guy, but I don't think that's necessary. Especially whenever they update the points for DA fists, which will make the Chainfist obsolete since it costs 10 points more than a regular Power Fist in Codex: Space Marines (which is what DA will be when they update it).