Now that the imperial guard codex is out...

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**Alcibiades**

JNAProductions wrote:
Unit1126PLL wrote:
JNAProductions wrote:

Spoiler:

JNAProductions wrote:
Autocannons are S7, AP-1, D2. They serve as antitank in a pinch.

Also, how much more expensive is a Stormsurge than a Baneblade?

Edit: Also, firepower:

Stormsurge has:
4d6 (14) S5 shots. (Cluster Missile System)
8 more S5 shots (at 18"). (2 Burst Cannons)
8 more S5 shots that don't need LoS. (2 Smart Missiles)
And then its main gun, which either does:
Pulse Blastcannon (Max Range 30")
2 S14 AP-4 D6 shots.
4 S12 AP-2 D3 shots.
6 S10 AP0 D1 shots.
or
Pulse Driver Cannon
1d3 (2) S10 AP-3 Dd6 shots.
All at a 4+, degrading.
It WILL take a Shield Generator, and probably a Multi-Tracker and Advanced Targeting Systems, for reroll 1s and -1 AP on all guns. It also has 4 Destroyer missiles.
This costs: 442 points, with the Blastcannon. It jumps up by about 50 points to take the Driver.

A Baneblade has:
2 S7 AP-1 D2 shots. (Autocannon)
3d6 (10.5) S9 AP-3 D3 shots. (Baneblade cannon)
1d3 (2) S10 AP-3 Dd6 shots, at 24". (Demolisher cannon)
3 S4 shots. (Heavy Stubber)
4 S9 AP-3 Dd6 shots. (4 Lascannons)
24 S5 AP-1 shots. (4 Twin Heavy Bolters.)
All at a 4+, degrading.
This costs 689 points. A fair amount more than the Stormsurge. (Although I am looking at the Index, so didn't the Baneblade drop by like, 40 points?)

Against, say, Marines, the Stormsurge kills:
5 with secondary weapons, and either 1.11 with its main gun (10-20") or .83 (less than 10"), for about 6 total.
Baneblade kills:
.33 with the Auto, 3.65 with the main cannon, .69 with the Demolisher, .25 with the Stubber, 1.39 with the Lascannons, and 4 with the Heavy Bolters, for 10.31 total.
Baneblade is nearly twice as good.

What if they fire at each other? We'll assume each is undamaged and in optimal range.
Stormsurge does 2.5 wounds with its secondaries and 2.67 with its main (10-20") or 4 with its main (less than 10"). Average that to around 6 wounds.
Baneblade does .5 with autocannon, 5.25 with its main cannon, 1.17 with Demolisher, .17 with its stubber, 2.33 with its Lascannons, and 2 with its Heavy Bolters, for 11.42. Nearly double that of Stormsurge.

Now, I just realized I forgot to reroll 1s for the Surge, which it can get so long as it targets just one unit. That being said, the Baneblade is a LOT better than a Stormsurge.

I edited some math in. The Stormsurge is cheaper, yes. But worse.

Yes, which is about what you would expect, right? The cheaper unit is worse?

Also don't forget the Stormsurge can do 4d3 mortal wounds as well, essentially automatically if it has Markerlight support.

About half as good.

And 4d3 mortal wounds, with support, on a 4+ (rerolling ones). 3+ if it's anchored. That's an average of 6.22 mortal wounds, ASSUMING MARKERLIGHT SUPPORT. The Baneblade does more damage EVERY TURN without any support.

Something is wrong here.

I'm assuming a Stormsurge with shield generator, pulse driver cannon, ATS, and stim injector, and a base baneblade, and assuming that the SS has its anchors deployed and is not using its destroyer missiles.

I get that the baneblade cannon kills 3.78 MEQ, the autocannon kills 0.34, the twin HB kills 1, and the demo cannon kills 1.45, for 6.57.

The SS's main gun kills 1.11 (twice this if 10+ MEQs) and its various other systems kill 6.73. So the SS is very slightly better.

Against each other -- the baneblade cannon does 4.59, the AC does 0.42, the twin HB does 0.41, and the demo cannon does 1.7, for a total of 7.13.

The SS's main gun does 3.14 and its other weapons systems do 3.32, for a total of 6.46. So the BB is about 1/6 better.

On the other hand, if the SS has markerlight support and can use its destroyer missiles, it becomes much better.

***

They are about even.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
With full ML support, the stprmsurge does about 18 wounds to the baneblade if it pops all its missiles.

**JNAProductions**

I did not assume anchors deployed, since that's, bare minimum, a turn two thing.

In addition, if we're assuming Markerlight support for the Stormsurge, we should probably assume stuff like Enginseers for the Baneblade and Command Points, for Take Cover and whatnot.

**Alcibiades**

JNAProductions wrote:
I did not assume anchors deployed, since that's, bare minimum, a turn two thing.

In addition, if we're assuming Markerlight support for the Stormsurge, we should probably assume stuff like Enginseers for the Baneblade and Command Points, for Take Cover and whatnot.

Well, firing the demolisher cannon and burst cannons are themselves not things you can really do in Turn 1, usually.

I didn't assume ML support in my math; if the SS DOES get it, though, it does a very great deal of damage.

Anyway, the point is that they are not really far off from each other.

**JNAProductions**

Alcibiades wrote:
JNAProductions wrote:
I did not assume anchors deployed, since that's, bare minimum, a turn two thing.

In addition, if we're assuming Markerlight support for the Stormsurge, we should probably assume stuff like Enginseers for the Baneblade and Command Points, for Take Cover and whatnot.

Well, firing the demolisher cannon and burst cannons are themselves not things you can really do in Turn 1, usually.

I didn't assume ML support in my math; if the SS DOES get it, though, it does a very great deal of damage.

Anyway, the point is that they are not really far off from each other.

For one turn. Then it's out of Destroyer Missiles. (Admittedly, makes for a good Alpha Strike, but still.)

The Baneblade can fire at full power until it takes half wounds, and can fire all its guns until it's dead.

Edit: Also, how on earth do you get 24 HB shots killing one Marine?

24 shots is 12 hits.
Is 8 wounds.
Is 4 dead Marines.

**Alcibiades**

JNAProductions wrote:

The Baneblade can fire at full power until it takes half wounds, and can fire all its guns until it's dead.

Edit: Also, how on earth do you get 24 HB shots killing one Marine?

24 shots is 12 hits.
Is 8 wounds.
Is 4 dead Marines.

I used a base baneblade, which just has the twin HB, If you want to factor in the cost of sponsons, let the SS get the points in markerlights or gun drones.

Anyway... one is not actually much better than the other. They are about the same, the value of the "about" depending on specific circumstances.

**JNAProductions**

74 points to kill a MEQ with a Stormsurge.
67 points to kill a MEQ with a Baneblade.

Neither is efficient at that-the Baneblade is better, though.

And in addition, it's much, MUCH easier to kill off Markerlight support than it is to put 13 wounds on a Baneblade. Factor that in.

**Alcibiades**

JNAProductions wrote:
74 points to kill a MEQ with a Stormsurge.
67 points to kill a MEQ with a Baneblade.

Neither is efficient at that-the Baneblade is better, though.

And in addition, it's much, MUCH easier to kill off Markerlight support than it is to put 13 wounds on a Baneblade. Factor that in.

Actually it's hot hard for a SS, provided it has ML and the tank doesn't pop smoke, to put 13 wounds on a baneblade, due to the missiles

A 7-point difference does not "much better" make -- which is my point. The baneblade is arguably better than the SS, but not hugely so. "Much better" is hyperbole.

**MechaEmperor7000**

Stormsurge OP, Tau Empire clearly broken. Game ruined forever.

(I'm joking of course)

**Kdash**

So, i think the 3 baneblade "problem" will soon be a thing of the past, once people start seeing more of Magnus and Mortarian in the same 2k point lists.

**Kap'n Krump**

Huh. I almost want to say that 3x baneblades would vaporize either magnus or morty is rather short order, especially since they can fall back and shoot (I think?).

I mean, the primarch's invlus are still solid, but not many baneblade shots have to sneak by them to do some major damage.

**the_scotsman**

Kap'n Krump wrote:
Huh. I almost want to say that 3x baneblades would vaporize either magnus or morty is rather short order, especially since they can fall back and shoot (I think?).

I mean, the primarch's invlus are still solid, but not many baneblade shots have to sneak by them to do some major damage.

Probably. 3 fully loaded baneblades will generally hover around 1700-1800 points. Would you not expect them to be able to remove a 470 point model?

They'd need a solid amount of lascannon sponsons or some to-hit buffs though. My math has 3 baneblade cannons dealing 10 wounds to Mortarion without any kind of psychic buffs. You'd have to supplement that with about 18 BS4+ lascannon shots to finish him off.

**NenkotaMoon**

Well none of this matters anymore, good night everybody.

**Cream Tea**

NenkotaMoon wrote:
Well none of this matters anymore, good night everybody.

Because of one tournament? Get a grip.

It's not like AM are the only army that's a problem, and there are still dice and players influencing the games.

**Kdash**

Kap'n Krump wrote:
Huh. I almost want to say that 3x baneblades would vaporize either magnus or morty is rather short order, especially since they can fall back and shoot (I think?).

I mean, the primarch's invlus are still solid, but not many baneblade shots have to sneak by them to do some major damage.

Oh i agree that things like Shadowswords should still be able to nuke Magnus or Morty in one turn, but, if they get first turn it gets a whole lot harder for them. Either way, if those 2 lists played each other the game would be over on turn 2 and could swing massively in each direction.

The issue i was referring to was another issue. Sure, people are complaining about having to deal with 3 baneblades, but, that is a whole lot easier to deal with than seeing Magnus and Morty on the other side of the table.

**XT-1984**

A Catachan Baneblade gets to reroll one of the dice for the number of shots it makes and for 1CP it can reroll all failed to Hit rolls and to Wound rolls against a target with the Chaos keyword.

That will nuke the Daemon Primarchs easily, I'm not complaining though, I'll be jumping on that bandwagon.

**GhostRecon**

XT-1984 wrote:
A Catachan Baneblade gets to reroll one of the dice for the number of shots it makes and for 1CP it can reroll all failed to Hit rolls and to Wound rolls against a target with the Chaos keyword.

That will nuke the Daemon Primarchs easily, I'm not complaining though, I'll be jumping on that bandwagon.

Assuming the Baneblade is unupgraded vs Mortarion (459pts w/1 CP Stratagem vs 470pts)
11.7 wounds w/the baneblade cannon (assuming you get a full 18 shots on the 3d6 - your average w/the Catachan reroll will be more like 13.5)
4.8 wounds w/the demolisher cannon (assuming you get the full 3 on the d3 and 6 wounds on the D6)
1.2 wounds for the autocannon
.8 wounds for the twin heavy bolters
So 18.5 wounds with the assumption of your absolute best case scenario in terms of number of dice-shots. Hardly easily, particularly since you're using 459pts to shoot 470pts and assuming: 1) You get the Baneblade within 24" intact/unassaulted of Mortarion; 2) Mortarion hasn't used Miasma of Pestilence on himself (-1 to hit would dent the Baneblade's shooting even with the Stratagem); 3) the rest of your army and the DG army aren't tipping the scales one way or the other.

**XT-1984**

Yeah but who takes an unupgraded Baneblade honestly.

Makes me laugh when I see people say it takes 40 lascannons to kill Mortarion because I've never seen a 2k army with 40 lascannons but I've seen Mortarion die in a single turn most games he has been in.

**stratigo**

XT-1984 wrote:
Yeah but who takes an unupgraded Baneblade honestly.

Makes me laugh when I see people say it takes 40 lascannons to kill Mortarion because I've never seen a 2k army with 40 lascannons but I've seen Mortarion die in a single turn most games he has been in.

People like to pretend they've never heard of rerolls and support and such.

Mortarion in a competitive list will mulch baneblades, but that's because he's super friends with magnus and a bajillion malefic lords.

**Marmatag**

Unit1126PLL wrote:
Marmatag wrote:
Unit1126PLL wrote:
Marmatag wrote:
The solution would be to unmarry yourself from the restriction of playing 3 baneblades if your opponent has no chance in hell of handling them.

Look i mean it's not rocket science. If your opponent isn't having fun in a casual game, and that matters to you, do something about it.

So I should sacrifice my own enjoyment of the game for their sake.

Why can't the same be expected of them?

So you can only have fun if you play all 3 tanks? That screams "my way or the high way."

Well, as I mentioned before, I like to play fluffy. Each battle is something I write about afterwards.

If someone builds and tailors a list specifically to beat your tanks, and they absolutely crush you, do you still write about it?

**Unit1126PLL**

Marmatag wrote:
Unit1126PLL wrote:
Marmatag wrote:
Unit1126PLL wrote:
Marmatag wrote:
The solution would be to unmarry yourself from the restriction of playing 3 baneblades if your opponent has no chance in hell of handling them.

Look i mean it's not rocket science. If your opponent isn't having fun in a casual game, and that matters to you, do something about it.

So I should sacrifice my own enjoyment of the game for their sake.

Why can't the same be expected of them?

So you can only have fun if you play all 3 tanks? That screams "my way or the high way."

Well, as I mentioned before, I like to play fluffy. Each battle is something I write about afterwards.

If someone builds and tailors a list specifically to beat your tanks, and they absolutely crush you, do you still write about it?

Yes!

Usually a lamentation about how there were no other regiments around so we were thrown into the meatgrinder without adequate support against an enemy specialized to destroy us, and the usual doubt and recriminations of the regimental officers and survivors of the massacre about whether such a cold, unfeeling, clueless Imperium is really worth serving...

...in private of course.

**blaktoof**

Most tables have things on them called terrain, can get hard to gun down models behind terrain if it blocks Los.

**JNAProductions**

blaktoof wrote:
Most tables have things on them called terrain, can get hard to gun down models behind terrain if it blocks Los.

Basilisks, Manticores, Mortars...

**Martel732**

LoS blocking terrain actually helps IG lists.

**Kap'n Krump**

blaktoof wrote:
Most tables have things on them called terrain, can get hard to gun down models behind terrain if it blocks Los.

It's a little hard for models as gigantic as morty and mags (sounds like a cartoon) to get entirely out of LOS. Unless you use cardboard shipping boxes as cover.

**brother_b**

Nothing out and out OP looking from the eldar previews.

No double firing tanks, no hordes of cheap troops with multiple orders boosting their efficiency, only one craftworld with a "commmissar" trait (unlike IG where everybody can bring a commissar), no piles of no-line-of-sight firing weapons (with -3 ap for some just because), no ability to re-roll dice for determining heavy weapon shots, looks like only 1 craftworld gets re-rolls of 1 (unlike guard that have that as a doctrine or order), there are no ogre bodyguards with the ability to get buffed to ungodly saving throws coupled with the ability to take hits for T8 tank commanders.

None of that.

So yeah, guard still looking very, very tough. I don't care about tourneys as much. I care about gaming at the game store or with friends. How is a regular army supposed to compete with guard when they've got so many tools?

Maybe thats a question for the tactics forum.

**Vaktathi**

brother_b wrote:
Nothing out and out OP looking from the eldar previews.

No double firing tanks, no hordes of cheap troops with multiple orders boosting their efficiency, only one craftworld with a "commmissar" trait (unlike IG where everybody can bring a commissar), no piles of no-line-of-sight firing weapons (with -3 ap for some just because), no ability to re-roll dice for determining heavy weapon shots, looks like only 1 craftworld gets re-rolls of 1 (unlike guard that have that as a doctrine or order), there are no ogre bodyguards with the ability to get buffed to ungodly saving throws coupled with the ability to take hits for T8 tank commanders.

The double-firing tanks was an awkward after-thought fix to Leman Russ tanks that were largely garbage before and GW didn't want to fix them in the unit or weapon profiles so they tacked on that rule, they didn't think through the blast-to-random-shots effectiveness very well and two of the three non-random shot LR's are still largely seen as poor options even with the double-firing (the Exterminator is one of the few units that sported a Twin Linked weapon to not get its shots doubled...and is for some reason more expensive than a Battlecannon, while the Vanquisher is a terrible tank hunter being only S8 and AP-3 comapred to say the Fire Prism's S12 AP-5 and multi-role ability).

No, Eldar probably won't have something like Orders to boost their efficiency, that has typically been done through Psychic powers that will require casting but are proportionally more powerful (e.g. rerolling all to hit rolls instead of just 1's) , and multi-use, as well as being significantly longer ranged and don't require gimmicks like Voxes.

Yes IG have no-LoS weapons with strong AP, this is not exactly new, the Basilisk has existed in largely the same form since 2E.

Lets wait to see what the Eldar codex actually looks like in its final form. Historically, Eldar have never had anything less than an astoundingly powerful codex release and have always been a top tier power army (save for 5E where they got no codex), there's lots that could change that we simply don't know about yet.

**ross-128**

It seems like not a single Eldar preview goes by without mentioning at least one points reduction, so codex Eldar is going to be stronger than Index Eldar for sure. The question is just how big are those points reductions going to be?

**Otto von Bludd**

brother_b wrote:
Nothing out and out OP looking from the eldar previews.

No double firing tanks, no hordes of cheap troops with multiple orders boosting their efficiency, only one craftworld with a "commmissar" trait (unlike IG where everybody can bring a commissar), no piles of no-line-of-sight firing weapons (with -3 ap for some just because), no ability to re-roll dice for determining heavy weapon shots, looks like only 1 craftworld gets re-rolls of 1 (unlike guard that have that as a doctrine or order), there are no ogre bodyguards with the ability to get buffed to ungodly saving throws coupled with the ability to take hits for T8 tank commanders.

None of that.

So yeah, guard still looking very, very tough. I don't care about tourneys as much. I care about gaming at the game store or with friends. How is a regular army supposed to compete with guard when they've got so many tools?

Maybe thats a question for the tactics forum.

So now we're ready to pass judgement on the Eldar codex based on a couple snippets before it's even out? At least you guys are consistent with your "jump to conclusions as fast as we can" reasoning, expect when IG doesn't dominate all tournaments and you tell us to wait for more.

**ross-128**

Considering how many points adjustments Eldar are getting, I don't think we'll be able to judge anything about the Eldar codex until we see what the new values are.

**MechaEmperor7000**

Eldar has a far less bit of a reaction since they were "Bad", so the waters are a little bit more tepid.