Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

I would never play a brigade. Its unlikely you will get first turn. Going first is a huge advantage.

It's only huge if you are relying on alpha strike. It takes multiple turns to cut through screens anyway, so plan on the long haul.

It's also only a +1 to the roll. I'd much rather have more units to work with. And you'll still probably get the +1 vs IG.

The +1 to the roll who goes first only applies to the missions in CA, or if you house rule it, or the TO rules it. The matched play rule that the player who finished deploying first has first turn is still valid.

I play primarily ITC. Also, I believe the CA rule replaces the matched play rule for all matched play. But I'm not certain. At any rate, I'm not playing matches with the old rule and I would recommend others do the same. It's too extreme. Just as I don't play matches without the beta smite rule.

Martel732 wrote:
It's only huge if you are relying on alpha strike. It takes multiple turns to cut through screens anyway, so plan on the long haul.

It's also only a +1 to the roll. I'd much rather have more units to work with. And you'll still probably get the +1 vs IG.

my problem with the brigade and how you described it, is that it doesn't really sound like much of a Blood Angels army. I have other Space Marine armies if I want to pull crap like that, I play Blood Angels for fast tanks and jump pack Marines tearing up the battlefield. And my defensive armies (Crimson Fists, Ad Me) is contrasted well by my aggressive army (Blood Angels).

I do need to investigate better uses of my points than two Repulsors. I really wish we would get our FAQ/errata so I can figure out if I want to run some Baal Predators.

The brigade can have as many bolt-on murder elements as you want.

Heavy bolter attack bikes sound very BA.
5 man reivers? Super BA
Whirlwinds? Kinda meh, fluff-wise. But they are super handy for clearing out a place to descent of angels, since horde armies can easily turn off our deep strike options. The codex explicitly says that the BA see the value of artillery, though.

Remember your 6 troops could all be hand to hand scouts, too.

Brigade keeps the character tax low, too. Although I know BA have a tendency to be character-heavy.

I have to agree with Martel on this one. “Pull crap like that”? Pull crap like being codex compliant? Every option in the BA book is part of a BA army. Attack bikes don’t seem particularly effective but I still like the models. I like our unique units being the icing on a codex compliant cake; not just a gimmick army that has 5 unique units to choose from. Different strokes! I don’t think I can swing a brigade though; the new book has me leaning on double Battalion and larger units to maximize stratagem effectiveness.

Yeah, I am with Martel as well. I can't remember who it was in the last thread that I got into a debate with about how some units "aren't Blood Angel enough" or some crap, but anything in the Codex IS a Blood Angel entry and we shouldn't be afraid to use it.

I have been faring well with my double Battalion army, I only have a few post-Codex games with it, but it currently goes undefeated in 1v1 games. It gives me plenty of options with Strategems, I won first turn in my last two games and in the first one my opponent conceded after my Turn 1 and in the second they conceded at the end of my Turn 3 (he was going to concede Turn 2 but played ot out for one more turn).

Even though my army isn't super competitive, the Strategems and The Red Thirst do wonders for our army. In my first game I blew all 9 Command Points on the first turn to make sure my powers went off, gave the Dread the reroll of 1 aura (makes it so I don't need a Captain), forced big damage rolls, gave the JP Libby extra attacks, allowed my Vanguard Vets to multi- charge a slew of units 3d6" and let them fight twice. It was one of the most brutal turns my armt has ever pulled off.

Martel732 wrote:
I play primarily ITC. Also, I believe the CA rule replaces the matched play rule for all matched play. But I'm not certain.

The updated matched play rules of CA dont say anything about the +1 to go first.

Yeh BA are a codex compliant army and more of that i am a bit dissapointed that we have nothing particular on scouts and pilots wich are an important part of the fluff. Rly a missed opportunity.


On another subject, into pure optimisation, a detachement of 3 eversor (2+1 cadillus might be solid too) and an inquisitor bring 1 cp and efficient chaff removal + 2 usefull powers: no overwatch and no fear.

Well, once we had a codex which allowed BA units/models an extra move on 6+.
Lots of vanilla choices in the BA codex. Not worth considering for a fluffy BA army.

Apparently, if your not just hitting people in the face with melee weapons until you lose, you're not playing BA correctly.

 Voidwraith wrote:
Apparently, if your not just hitting people in the face with melee weapons until you lose, you're not playing BA correctly.

Indeed, the signature units of BA like DG and SG are strongly melee centered and the new codex provides some ways to get there.
But 40k is more a shooting game these days and important units or models are bubble wrapped making it hard to charge them.
It’s a balancing act.

 Voidwraith wrote:
Apparently, if your not just hitting people in the face with melee weapons until you lose, you're not playing BA correctly.

Well, if you manage to get first turn, and alpha strike (almost) your entire army (which is possible), you pretty much have won the game.

p5freak wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
I play primarily ITC. Also, I believe the CA rule replaces the matched play rule for all matched play. But I'm not certain.

The updated matched play rules of CA dont say anything about the +1 to go first.

Yeah, I guess that's true. Nevertheless, I'm never going to plan around the old method, as every tournament I've heard of uses the +1 method.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

p5freak wrote:

 Voidwraith wrote:
Apparently, if your not just hitting people in the face with melee weapons until you lose, you're not playing BA correctly.

Well, if you manage to get first turn, and alpha strike (almost) your entire army (which is possible), you pretty much have won the game.

I'm not sure this is true, either. BA can't chop through 150 guardsmen effectively.

p5freak wrote:

 Voidwraith wrote:
Apparently, if your not just hitting people in the face with melee weapons until you lose, you're not playing BA correctly.

Well, if you manage to get first turn, and alpha strike (almost) your entire army (which is possible), you pretty much have won the game.

GW allows you to alpha strike your entire army if you're shooting. Not so much if you want to punch something.

I'm a Dark Angel so I am OK with gunlines to start with, but Sergeant Traviola of the Blood Angels 2nd Company wrote in the Heavy Support section of the new Codex that "Though I long for the heady days of the blade as much as any of my brothers, command of such overwhelming firepower offers a satisfaction all of its own." So he's OK with a shooty Blood Angels force, and he's a real Blood Angel!

The problem with a shooty BA force is that they don't get the bonuses to it that other chapters do.

Nothing to stop you running it, but other marine chapters do it better

Bartali wrote:

GW allows you to alpha strike your entire army if you're shooting. Not so much if you want to punch something.

Thats what i meant. Melee alpha strike turn 1.

Bartali wrote:
The problem with a shooty BA force is that they don't get the bonuses to it that other chapters do.

Nothing to stop you running it, but other marine chapters do it better

Yeah, for me it isn't so much that other chapters do it better, it's more that I don't feel I'm taking enough advantage of Red Thirst (which could be excellent) and some of the better stratagems available to us.

Before the Codex release I was having fun with a gunline of a plasma Dev squad, a ML Dev squad, a Deredeo and 2 Lascannon Mortis Dreds. That gunline also comprises a lot of my better painted models.... which was nice.

Now, since the codex, I feel like I should be taking all my old Assault Squads again, which I've never really managed to use very effectively.... and they're my least well painted models... which irritates.

Bartali wrote:
The problem with a shooty BA force is that they don't get the bonuses to it that other chapters do.

Nothing to stop you running it, but other marine chapters do it better

our combat elements are better than other chapters, but 40k leans towards shooting. BA as a codex compliant force with a strong shooting element, with large unique units deep striking is optimal for us, imo. A standard marine list with 15 DC or 10 SG, and a small unit of VV or two to maximize stratagem shenanigans is how I think BA play best. Pure melee is the path to damnation when your enemies can touch you from 48” and you can only touch them back at 1”.

p5freak wrote:

Bartali wrote:

GW allows you to alpha strike your entire army if you're shooting. Not so much if you want to punch something.

Thats what i meant. Melee alpha strike turn 1.

Melee alpha strike works for you? Interesting.

 alanmckenzie wrote:

Bartali wrote:
The problem with a shooty BA force is that they don't get the bonuses to it that other chapters do.

Nothing to stop you running it, but other marine chapters do it better

Yeah, for me it isn't so much that other chapters do it better, it's more that I don't feel I'm taking enough advantage of Red Thirst (which could be excellent) and some of the better stratagems available to us.

Before the Codex release I was having fun with a gunline of a plasma Dev squad, a ML Dev squad, a Deredeo and 2 Lascannon Mortis Dreds. That gunline also comprises a lot of my better painted models.... which was nice.

Now, since the codex, I feel like I should be taking all my old Assault Squads again, which I've never really managed to use very effectively.... and they're my least well painted models... which irritates.

Ultramarines don’t need every unit falling back and shooting to win. Raven Guard don’t need to infiltrate every unit to win. Chapter Tactics are another tool in the toolbox, make your support units more threatening to the crappy type of harrier units that usually try to deal with units in an enemy’s backfield (of which marine Assault Squads are one). If you focus on jump packs, and melee domination you run out of CP too quickly. With shooting elements you can use your CP to adequately buff the unique assault elements we do have. My 2 cents anyway. I do intend to buy two boxes of assault squads though; magnets to experiment with deepstrike 3 melta, or plasma, etc.

Bremon wrote:

Bartali wrote:
The problem with a shooty BA force is that they don't get the bonuses to it that other chapters do.

Nothing to stop you running it, but other marine chapters do it better

our combat elements are better than other chapters, but 40k leans towards shooting. BA as a codex compliant force with a strong shooting element, with large unique units deep striking is optimal for us, imo. A standard marine list with 15 DC or 10 SG, and a small unit of VV or two to maximize stratagem shenanigans is how I think BA play best. Pure melee is the path to damnation when your enemies can touch you from 48” and you can only touch them back at 1”.

p5freak wrote:

Bartali wrote:

GW allows you to alpha strike your entire army if you're shooting. Not so much if you want to punch something.

Thats what i meant. Melee alpha strike turn 1.

Melee alpha strike works for you? Interesting.

I disagree BA in a Casual list can be all infantry alpha and function but against a competative list they need to be the tertiary detatchment supported by another detatchments brigade.

If nothing else, Red thirst makes cheap CC scouts much more dangerous.

Bartali wrote:
The problem with a shooty BA force is that they don't get the bonuses to it that other chapters do.

Nothing to stop you running it, but other marine chapters do it better

%100 agree. This is why running BA as a gunline is really just gimping yourself. Your not taking advantage of your tools and one of our best, if not the best tool, is red thirst. It's incredibly powerful, so to just shoot and ignore it would be folly imo, just as running nothing but CC also is not best. Running some shooty elements along side your CC elements is fine. I, personally, like running more CC than shooting but YMMV.

Shooting is never gimping yourself. Knocking out a couple key enemy units with lascannons is worth 3-4 melee units as you save yourself all those casualties.

Martel732 wrote:
Shooting is never gimping yourself. Knocking out a couple key enemy units with lascannons is worth 3-4 melee units as you save yourself all those casualties.

Its not shooting thats gimping its having BA units shoot when you could take a BA detatchment and a 2nd detatchment of SM/guard and have that do the shooting only better.

Yes, Imperial soup is better than any mono-Imperial list. Old news.

Martel732 wrote:

p5freak wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
I play primarily ITC. Also, I believe the CA rule replaces the matched play rule for all matched play. But I'm not certain.

The updated matched play rules of CA dont say anything about the +1 to go first.

Yeah, I guess that's true. Nevertheless, I'm never going to plan around the old method, as every tournament I've heard of uses the +1 method.

I don't have the book in front of me, but if you go to the Warhammer Community page, the rule is there with an image that makes it look like it's listed under a FIRST TURN heading somewhere in the book. Unsure where.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Martel732 wrote:

p5freak wrote:

 Voidwraith wrote:
Apparently, if your not just hitting people in the face with melee weapons until you lose, you're not playing BA correctly.

Well, if you manage to get first turn, and alpha strike (almost) your entire army (which is possible), you pretty much have won the game.

I'm not sure this is true, either. BA can't chop through 150 guardsmen effectively.

Yeah...seems like a lot of BA batreps have the BA player successfully pull off a melee alpha strike and then go on to lose the game. It appears Jump packs and Red Thirst aren't autowin, even with our cool new strats.

Melee alpha strikes are still hitting what your opponent wants you to. That's why they don't work very often. In my case, you'd be hitting my scouts. Okay... you killed my scouts extra dead.

Martel732 wrote:
Melee alpha strikes are still hitting what your opponent wants you to. That's why they don't work very often. In my case, you'd be hitting my scouts. Okay... you killed my scouts extra dead.

In the games I've been playing I've been dropping inceptors in to clear chaff units to then push through with my strong melee units. I also deploy my own scouts reasonably early to stop my opponent putting their own 'infiltrator' esk unit in the way, it doesn't work so well during the deep deployment types but it helps with the shallow ones 12" ones.