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The Knights codex says Imperial Knights can't take Rulebook Warlord Traits, on the Warlord Traits page, I thought?

 Crazyterran wrote:
The Knights codex says Imperial Knights can't take Rulebook Warlord Traits, on the Warlord Traits page, I thought?

That it does. I missed it. Probably because it would be insane to have a Knight that can ignore all wounds on a 6 (Taranis can't ignore Mortal Wounds).

tneva82 wrote:

Mandragola wrote:
At 2k you can now have a detachment of 3 big knights and a second one of a big knight and 2 armigers. Total of 12 CPs.

Hope people haven't painted too many IG for their knights so far. Stop now.

.

For very competive ig still required for bodies, more cp and regeneration of cp. All knights still won't be super hot in competive enviromen'

I think this will need to be tested - which I intend to do soon. My theory is that IKs will have enough CPs to be getting on with. Adding in IG to have infinite CPs is nice, but not required. I've always maintained that having 5 extra drops is a very bad thing. It makes it much less likely that you'll go first - which you want to do a lot. And it more than doubles your CP count. And also, it only even gives you 2 more CPs (plus regen) over what that second knight lance with armigers would give you. I'm not at all convinced that it's worthwhile, overall. There is more to competitive 40k than maxing out CPs.

Things might be different at 1750. At that points value you can't afford two lances, but you can have one and a battalion. In that scenario you'd be getting 5 extra CPs, plus regen, not just 2.

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

gendoikari87 wrote:
Question: can I take a brb trait on knight 1 and use exalted court to give knight 2 a codex trait?

Why couldn't you? The codex traits are available in addition to the big rulebook traits, not in spite of them.

Though it does make me want to put the Ignore Wounds trait on one of my Knights. It could be a fun time having a more survivable Knight

I'm curious to know which brb trait you'd want. I guess the FNP one is pretty good, if not playing Taranis.

The new FAQ also helps swings the valiant vs castellan argument. As mentioned, the meta will probably change and big knight + 2 armigers will probably become standard in soup lists, you're going to want that volcano lance

Cp knights still will be short without ig. Also you will have so few units and models with pure knights you might win on casualties but lose on scenario

 UMGuy wrote:
The new FAQ also helps swings the valiant vs castellan argument. As mentioned, the meta will probably change and big knight + 2 armigers will probably become standard in soup lists, you're going to want that volcano lance

The argument had swung toward the Castellan long before that. The Valiant is in a pretty bad place considering one of its weapons is effectively worthless.

• This model may replace its thunderstrike gauntlet with an avenger gatling cannon and heavy flamer, rapid-fire
battle cannon and heavy stubber, or thermal cannon.
• This model may replace its reaper chainsword with an avenger gatling cannon and heavy flamer, rapid-fire battle
cannon and heavy stubber, or thermal cannon


Am i just mistaken or can a renegade knight take 2 Avenger gatling cannons, Rapid-fire battle cannons or thermal cannons.
or have i just missed something in the new index.

This change is interesting. 3 cp more to play with! I've made this list as a reaction, not exactly optimal but not bad either. Hopefully the -1 to hit on the custodes discourages people from shooting them until they hit combat, where they will put on the hurt. Don't have a clear idea of tactics yet, but I know that the jetbike captains will hide behind he custodes until in range for a guaranteed charge. What do you think?
++ Super-Heavy Detachment +3CP (Imperium - Imperial Knights) [43 PL, 805pts] ++

+ No Force Org Slot +

Household Choice: House Krast, Questor Mechanicus

+ Lord of War +

Armiger Helverins [9 PL, 174pts]
. Armiger Helverin: Heavy stubber

Armiger Helverins [9 PL, 174pts]
. Armiger Helverin: Heavy stubber

Knight Crusader [25 PL, 457pts]: Heavy stubber, Heirloom: Endless Fury, Thermal cannon, Warlord Trait (Krast): First Knight
. Avenger Gatling Cannon w/ Heavy Flamer: Avenger gatling cannon, Heavy flamer
. Character: Warlord

++ Battalion Detachment +5CP (Imperium - Adeptus Custodes) [58 PL, 1107pts] ++

+ HQ +

Shield-Captain on Dawneagle Jetbike [9 PL, 164pts]: Hurricane Bolter, Misericordia

Shield-Captain on Dawneagle Jetbike [9 PL, 160pts]: Hurricane Bolter

Shield-Captain on Dawneagle Jetbike [9 PL, 160pts]: Hurricane Bolter

+ Troops +

Custodian Guard Squad [8 PL, 163pts]
. Custodian: Sentinel Blade, Storm Shield
. Custodian: Guardian Spear
. Custodian: Guardian Spear

Custodian Guard Squad [8 PL, 163pts]
. Custodian: Sentinel Blade, Storm Shield
. Custodian: Guardian Spear
. Custodian: Guardian Spear

Custodian Guard Squad [8 PL, 163pts]
. Custodian: Sentinel Blade, Storm Shield
. Custodian: Guardian Spear
. Custodian: Guardian Spear

+ Elites +

Vexillus Praetor in Allarus Terminator Armor [7 PL, 134pts]: Misericordia, Vexilla Magnifica

++ Auxiliary Support Detachment -1CP (Imperium - Officio Assassinorum) [5 PL, 85pts] ++

+ Elites +

Culexus Assassin [5 PL, 85pts]

++ Total: [106 PL, 1997pts] ++

Created with BattleScribe
The culexus isn't necessary, but it's what I have and any anti psyker is welcome over a missile pod. Hopefully it's enough ranged AT to do well.

Sim-B wrote:
• This model may replace its thunderstrike gauntlet with an avenger gatling cannon and heavy flamer, rapid-fire
battle cannon and heavy stubber, or thermal cannon.
• This model may replace its reaper chainsword with an avenger gatling cannon and heavy flamer, rapid-fire battle
cannon and heavy stubber, or thermal cannon


Am i just mistaken or can a renegade knight take 2 Avenger gatling cannons, Rapid-fire battle cannons or thermal cannons.
or have i just missed something in the new index.

That's their shtick, yeah. Can double down.

Sim-B wrote:
• This model may replace its thunderstrike gauntlet with an avenger gatling cannon and heavy flamer, rapid-fire
battle cannon and heavy stubber, or thermal cannon.
• This model may replace its reaper chainsword with an avenger gatling cannon and heavy flamer, rapid-fire battle
cannon and heavy stubber, or thermal cannon


Am i just mistaken or can a renegade knight take 2 Avenger gatling cannons, Rapid-fire battle cannons or thermal cannons.
or have i just missed something in the new index.

Yep. The downside is you are stuck being Chaos and don't have any fancy Imperial Knights Codex stratagems, warlord traits, whatever.

EDIT: Just checked Warhammer-Community, I am behind the times. Man, that is very nice of GW to do for Renegade Knights. I'm impressed.

List I'm considering going forward

SHD: +3 CP House Tanaris

Armiger Helverin x2

Armiger Helverin

Knight Preceptor (Warlord, Storm Spear Rocket Pod, Ion Bulwark, Helm of Domination)

SHD: +3 CP House Krast

Armiger Warglaive x 2

Armiger Warglaive x 2

Knight Gallant (Exalted Court +1 Attack)

Sim-B wrote:
• This model may replace its thunderstrike gauntlet with an avenger gatling cannon and heavy flamer, rapid-fire
battle cannon and heavy stubber, or thermal cannon.
• This model may replace its reaper chainsword with an avenger gatling cannon and heavy flamer, rapid-fire battle
cannon and heavy stubber, or thermal cannon


Am i just mistaken or can a renegade knight take 2 Avenger gatling cannons, Rapid-fire battle cannons or thermal cannons.
or have i just missed something in the new index.

They've always been able to do that. The downside is they can only have 3 knights of each chassis type (or 9 armigers in 3 squadrons) at 2k.

The practical downside is you have to either purchase two knights to get dual guns, or find bitz or a knockoff part, which probably will run you $25-30.

So now 14 cp before using heirlooms

Taking this up against mortarion, thoughts on how to kill him?


++ Battalion Detachment +5CP (Imperium - Astra Militarum) [23 PL, 383pts] ++

+ No Force Org Slot +

Regimental Doctrine: Cadian

+ HQ +

Company Commander [2 PL, 30pts]: Chainsword, Laspistol

Tank Commander [12 PL, 197pts]: Heavy Bolter
. Command Battle Tank: Battle Cannon

+ Troops +

Infantry Squad [3 PL, 52pts]
. 7x Guardsman
. Heavy Weapon Team: Autocannon
. Sergeant: Laspistol

Infantry Squad [3 PL, 52pts]
. 7x Guardsman
. Heavy Weapon Team: Autocannon
. Sergeant: Laspistol

Infantry Squad [3 PL, 52pts]
. 7x Guardsman
. Heavy Weapon Team: Autocannon
. Sergeant: Laspistol

++ Super-Heavy Detachment +3CP (Imperium - Imperial Knights) [41 PL, 812pts] ++

+ No Force Org Slot +

Household Choice: House Hawkshroud, Questor Imperialis

+ Lord of War +

Armiger Helverins [9 PL, 174pts]
. Armiger Helverin: Heavy stubber

Armiger Warglaives [9 PL, 177pts]
. Armiger Warglaive: Meltagun

Knight Warden [23 PL, 461pts]: Heavy stubber, Heirloom: Endless Fury, Stormspear rocket pod, Thunderstrike gauntlet, Warlord Trait: Ion Bulwark
. Avenger Gatling Cannon w/ Heavy Flamer: Avenger gatling cannon, Heavy flamer
. Character: Warlord

++ Super-Heavy Detachment +3CP (Imperium - Imperial Knights) [41 PL, 804pts] ++

+ No Force Org Slot +

Household Choice: House Hawkshroud, Questor Imperialis

+ Lord of War +

Armiger Helverins [9 PL, 174pts]
. Armiger Helverin: Heavy stubber

Armiger Warglaives [9 PL, 177pts]
. Armiger Warglaive: Meltagun

Knight Paladin [23 PL, 453pts]: Heavy stubber, Heirloom: Sanctuary, Reaper chainsword, Twin Icarus autocannon
. Character: Warlord
. Rapid-fire battle cannon w/ heavy stubber: Heavy stubber, Rapid-fire battle cannon

++ Total: [105 PL, 1999pts] ++

Wait what happened to renegades?

Never mind just read it!

Oh wow I don’t play chaos but that’s so cool. Well done Gw colour me impressed

 Ideasweasel wrote:
Wait what happened to renegades?

Never mind just read it!

Oh wow I don’t play chaos but that’s so cool. Well done Gw colour me impressed

it is less than chaos players deserve but more than I expected

Wow, i was not expecting the 3 big Knight Lance to get boosted to +6CP - though i am glad you can now run 1 big Knight and 2 Armigers!

First thoughts... I absolutely LOVE their youtube vid on Renegade Knights (in spoiler)


I was then tempted to go Renegade instead of Imperial Knights, but, i don't feel like their relics and WL trait make it worthwhile making the change. Could be interesting going forward!

And, to top it off! GW has now saved me the cost of several Scion boxes! I could still opt to run double battalion and 3 Knights, but now, i feel like a single battalion, 3 Knights and 2 Armigers gives me everything i need!

A little surprised that there were no points changes for the FW Knights, but, i think that will come in time when FW get around to their version of codices over the current indices.

All in all, a very nice surprise to come home from the pub to!

They did FW price updates in Chapter Approved with the only exception being some emergency nerfs. I suspect that will remain the case.

gendoikari87 wrote:

 Ideasweasel wrote:
Wait what happened to renegades?

Never mind just read it!

Oh wow I don’t play chaos but that’s so cool. Well done Gw colour me impressed

it is less than chaos players deserve but more than I expected

Whilst I agree I’m always keen to award credit where it’s due. It’s definately a sign things are heading in a positive direction.

A business does best when it listens to its consumer base.

Profits and smiles all round

Edit phone has gone mad (I burst out laughing at tentacles)

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Kdash wrote:
Wow, i was not expecting the 3 big Knight Lance to get boosted to +6CP - though i am glad you can now run 1 big Knight and 2 Armigers!

First thoughts... I absolutely LOVE their youtube vid on Renegade Knights (in spoiler)

Spoiler:

I was then tempted to go Renegade instead of Imperial Knights, but, i don't feel like their relics and WL trait make it worthwhile making the change. Could be interesting going forward!

And, to top it off! GW has now saved me the cost of several Scion boxes! I could still opt to run double battalion and 3 Knights, but now, i feel like a single battalion, 3 Knights and 2 Armigers gives me everything i need!

A little surprised that there were no points changes for the FW Knights, but, i think that will come in time when FW get around to their version of codices over the current indices.

AstraVlad wrote:

Wulfey wrote:
Tallarn because it lets the basilisks move into better positions and lets my infantry advance and double shoot on the same turn. Also I can hide the basilisks if I am desparate.

You do not "hide Basilisk if you are desperate", you literally take Basilisks to hide them. With their range and ability to shoot without LOS if you ever have to move them out of cover, you are doing something terribly wrong 'cause there is no "better position" for them than behind the biggest LOS-block you can find as far away from the enemy as possible. And of course, the only doctrine you want to have on Basilisks is Cadian for that precious re-rolls to-hit.

Let me be more explicit, I can use the AMBUSH strategem to keep them off the board if I run up against an opponent with too many lascannons.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 UMGuy wrote:
The new FAQ also helps swings the valiant vs castellan argument. As mentioned, the meta will probably change and big knight + 2 armigers will probably become standard in soup lists, you're going to want that volcano lance

I vote for house RAVEN with castellan and 2 armigers. 4++ and Cawl's wrath on the castellan. Helverins or Warglaives are both viable since both benefit from the advance and shoot tradition of raven. I prefer helverins because they can be hidden out of LOS and be a threat all game from 60" away. Warglaives would require a more fighty tradition to really pay off.

Wulfey wrote:

Let me be more explicit, I can use the AMBUSH strategem to keep them off the board if I run up against an opponent with too many lascannons.

Oh, you can be totally comfortable without it: no one in his (hers) sane mind will shoot Basilisk with LCs if there is a Knight on the table. Or a tank. Or just _anything_ really important. IG is my main army, I know it from a lot of experience. No one is afraid of Basilisks and if some noob will waste his shots on that guys you can dance and laugh from joy.

AstraVlad wrote:

Wulfey wrote:

Let me be more explicit, I can use the AMBUSH strategem to keep them off the board if I run up against an opponent with too many lascannons.

Oh, you can be totally comfortable without it: no one in his (hers) sane mind will shoot Basilisk with LCs if there is a Knight on the table. Or a tank. Or just _anything_ really important. IG is my main army, I know it from a lot of experience. No one is afraid of Basilisks and if some noob will waste his shots on that guys you can dance and laugh from joy.

I think you have a point. When I ran my basilisks in an admech soup nobody ever shot at them either. In light of the FAQ I am thinking this is my new soup, base 19 CP, expect to spend down to 12CP with full CP farm going, 2 full buffed slamCaptains, and one Landstrider / 2+ armor knight. I am upping the non-LOS shooting so I can pick on enemy mortar teams and light infantry even more than I do. And I am switching to CADIA so I can get stronger anti-horde versus CHAOS when I really need it. I will have the CP to do the taranis get back up strategem with a reroll every time a knight goes down. Or I can just yolo and spend all my CP on one turn of slam captain double swinging.

TARANIS - 3x gallants with ironstorm pods
CADIA - 2x commanders, 3x guards, 2x mortar teams, 1x2 basilisks
BLANGELS - 2x slamCaptains, 3x scouts

Yeah, you effectively have unlimited CP while all of your relics are on the table with that set up lol.

Wulfey wrote:

AstraVlad wrote:

Wulfey wrote:

Let me be more explicit, I can use the AMBUSH strategem to keep them off the board if I run up against an opponent with too many lascannons.

Oh, you can be totally comfortable without it: no one in his (hers) sane mind will shoot Basilisk with LCs if there is a Knight on the table. Or a tank. Or just _anything_ really important. IG is my main army, I know it from a lot of experience. No one is afraid of Basilisks and if some noob will waste his shots on that guys you can dance and laugh from joy.

I think you have a point. When I ran my basilisks in an admech soup nobody ever shot at them either. In light of the FAQ I am thinking this is my new soup, base 19 CP, expect to spend down to 12CP with full CP farm going, 2 full buffed slamCaptains, and one Landstrider / 2+ armor knight. I am upping the non-LOS shooting so I can pick on enemy mortar teams and light infantry even more than I do. And I am switching to CADIA so I can get stronger anti-horde versus CHAOS when I really need it. I will have the CP to do the taranis get back up strategem with a reroll every time a knight goes down. Or I can just yolo and spend all my CP on one turn of slam captain double swinging.

TARANIS - 3x gallants with ironstorm pods
CADIA - 2x commanders, 3x guards, 2x mortar teams, 1x2 basilisks
BLANGELS - 2x slamCaptains, 3x scouts

You had me at 3 Gallants! Love this list Wulfey, let us know how it performs champ

The triple Gallant + cp factory + smash captains is pretty much the first list everyone competitive thought about. It’s not bad but terrain is a big problem for the Gallants, as are screening units. In short, they look nice on paper, but in reality it just doesn’t work out as well as imagined. It has no anti air either after the two suiciders are dead. Vs. Eldar the Gallants are chasing Rangers inside ruins and essentially wasting their time.

Melee units without fly are sadly pretty crap. Hence the low points cost. I see a lot of people getting lured in by that 354 price tag but to be honest I’d just field a 404p Shadowsword.

Castellan on the other hand does great work point by point vs T7, while simultaneously being a lot more survivable than Shadowswords (costs CP though), and is unaffected really by terrain or other issues.

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

 UMGuy wrote:
The new FAQ also helps swings the valiant vs castellan argument. As mentioned, the meta will probably change and big knight + 2 armigers will probably become standard in soup lists, you're going to want that volcano lance

The argument had swung toward the Castellan long before that. The Valiant is in a pretty bad place considering one of its weapons is effectively worthless.

My Valiant has single-handedly defeated Mortarion. A big part of that was due to that harpoon. I'd hardly consider that 'worthless'.

The Valiant is probably one of the most valuable Hawkshroud Knights you can get. Give it the Traitor's Pyre and laugh as anything that tries to exploit the common knight weakness of 'doesn't have an invul in close combat' never makes it to close combat. Sit it behind a screening line of Guardsmen/Skitarii/Space Marines and pop the stratagem that allows you to shoot overwatch and heroically intervene on behalf of your Imperium ally and laugh as the enemy never even makes it towards your screen.

You don't even have to take the relic or that household to make the Valiant amazing, either. And when that Harpoon does land, it's just amazing. The look on your opponent's face as that thing one-shots a perfectly healthy transport is priceless.

drbored wrote:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

 UMGuy wrote:
The new FAQ also helps swings the valiant vs castellan argument. As mentioned, the meta will probably change and big knight + 2 armigers will probably become standard in soup lists, you're going to want that volcano lance

The argument had swung toward the Castellan long before that. The Valiant is in a pretty bad place considering one of its weapons is effectively worthless.

My Valiant has single-handedly defeated Mortarion. A big part of that was due to that harpoon. I'd hardly consider that 'worthless'.

The Valiant is probably one of the most valuable Hawkshroud Knights you can get. Give it the Traitor's Pyre and laugh as anything that tries to exploit the common knight weakness of 'doesn't have an invul in close combat' never makes it to close combat. Sit it behind a screening line of Guardsmen/Skitarii/Space Marines and pop the stratagem that allows you to shoot overwatch and heroically intervene on behalf of your Imperium ally and laugh as the enemy never even makes it towards your screen.

You don't even have to take the relic or that household to make the Valiant amazing, either. And when that Harpoon does land, it's just amazing. The look on your opponent's face as that thing one-shots a perfectly healthy transport is priceless.

Yes, but how often do you get to use the Harpoon? Pretty much not at all on turn one. The Valiant, unless it is House Raven, just isn't fast enough to get it in range. So you can basically write off the Harpoon, which the Valiant pays points-baked-in for, for a turn. Does the Castellan have that limitation? Nope. It can reach anywhere on the the board with it's weapons. I have watched the Valiant go to work in battle reports. It is definitely a sight to see. But it really doesn't measure up to the Castellan in terms of effectiveness.

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

drbored wrote:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

 UMGuy wrote:
The new FAQ also helps swings the valiant vs castellan argument. As mentioned, the meta will probably change and big knight + 2 armigers will probably become standard in soup lists, you're going to want that volcano lance

The argument had swung toward the Castellan long before that. The Valiant is in a pretty bad place considering one of its weapons is effectively worthless.

My Valiant has single-handedly defeated Mortarion. A big part of that was due to that harpoon. I'd hardly consider that 'worthless'.

The Valiant is probably one of the most valuable Hawkshroud Knights you can get. Give it the Traitor's Pyre and laugh as anything that tries to exploit the common knight weakness of 'doesn't have an invul in close combat' never makes it to close combat. Sit it behind a screening line of Guardsmen/Skitarii/Space Marines and pop the stratagem that allows you to shoot overwatch and heroically intervene on behalf of your Imperium ally and laugh as the enemy never even makes it towards your screen.

You don't even have to take the relic or that household to make the Valiant amazing, either. And when that Harpoon does land, it's just amazing. The look on your opponent's face as that thing one-shots a perfectly healthy transport is priceless.

Yes, but how often do you get to use the Harpoon? Pretty much not at all on turn one. The Valiant, unless it is House Raven, just isn't fast enough to get it in range. So you can basically write off the Harpoon, which the Valiant pays points-baked-in for, for a turn. Does the Castellan have that limitation? Nope. It can reach anywhere on the the board with it's weapons. I have watched the Valiant go to work in battle reports. It is definitely a sight to see. But it really doesn't measure up to the Castellan in terms of effectiveness.

That harpoon has some value as a threat rather than an actual damage dealer. It creates a big bubble of NOPE around a Valiant that big models without an invul save (like Rhinos) desperately want to stay out of.

Now, that said, I would never run a Valiant alone, but rather only with an entire detachment of Knights. If everything is shooting at the Valiant, they are ignoring the Gallant, Crusader, and other potentially dangerous Knights that are also in the army. And if I was running a Valiant, I would give it the Ion Bulwark trait so that it takes a fair amount of firepower to bring it down. And believe me, I would certainly have a Gallant with Landstrider using Full Tilt to get into the opponent's face on turn 1, making it a bigger threat that must be dealt with. The Valiant therefore has time to get the harpoon into position to wreck some face.

Personally I feel like the Castellan and the Valiant each have their niche, and their own style of play. As to which is better, I think it's far too early to tell. Let's wait and render judgement after Knights hit a few tournaments.

The thing is, 600 pts for a NOPE bubble is absurdly overpriced. The flamer is great, don't get me wrong. But, the Harpoon is lackluster. Maybe if it was a melee weapon too (complete with a bonus to hit so the Valiant doesn't suck in melee). And maybe if it had a more unified role, it would be better. If they wanted it to hunt hordes, make both of its weapons work toward that. I dunno. Schizo has never really worked great in 40K.

But really, tell me you don't like the idea of the Valiant swinging that Harpoon around like a flail.

I will still paint my Valiant up nice. But I don't think it will ever see play at its points level. Reductions required.

I like the BA idea for pairing up with guard. Helps address a lot of the knights’ weaknesses, and gives you another CP farm.

I’m looking at something like:

Raven
Castellan (4++, relic plasma)
Warden (landstrider)
Gallant (either 5++ in combat or paragon gauntlet)

Cadian Battalion
2 Company Commanders (kurov’s, grand strategist)
2 infantry squads w/1 mortar
1 normal infantry squad

BA Battalion
Mephiston
Slamguinius (Vitas Veritae)
3 x 5 Scouts

Wulfey wrote:

I think you have a point. When I ran my basilisks in an admech soup nobody ever shot at them either. In light of the FAQ I am thinking this is my new soup, base 19 CP, expect to spend down to 12CP with full CP farm going, 2 full buffed slamCaptains, and one Landstrider / 2+ armor knight. I am upping the non-LOS shooting so I can pick on enemy mortar teams and light infantry even more than I do. And I am switching to CADIA so I can get stronger anti-horde versus CHAOS when I really need it. I will have the CP to do the taranis get back up strategem with a reroll every time a knight goes down. Or I can just yolo and spend all my CP on one turn of slam captain double swinging.

TARANIS - 3x gallants with ironstorm pods
CADIA - 2x commanders, 3x guards, 2x mortar teams, 1x2 basilisks
BLANGELS - 2x slamCaptains, 3x scouts

What's the thought process of making them Taranis? Is it the tradition or statagem you want the house for? Or both? I guess most of the close combat oriented traditions are on questor imperialis so is it fear of missing out on machine spirit resurgent that's a driving factor?