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 JohnHwangDD wrote:

 LunarSol wrote:
A lot of actors signed on to the MCU thinking they were getting their shot at pulling off the next Heath Ledger Joker and found themselves extremely disappointed. Cate Blanchett is one of the few to really commit to the kind of villain the MCU has been reliant on.

If you don't die immediately, you can't be the next Heath Ledger, whose performance is only "good" because of he died. To me, it was completely blah.

3rd or 4th best joker and only got an oscar because he died, otherwise hollywood would just do what it always does and snub comic book films/fantasy and sci fi, not such much an issue these days.

 JohnHwangDD wrote:

 LunarSol wrote:
A lot of actors signed on to the MCU thinking they were getting their shot at pulling off the next Heath Ledger Joker and found themselves extremely disappointed. Cate Blanchett is one of the few to really commit to the kind of villain the MCU has been reliant on.

If you don't die immediately, you can't be the next Heath Ledger, whose performance is only "good" because of he died. To me, it was completely blah.

If he hadn't died we'd regard his Joker with about as much reverence as we do Jared Leto's Joker, which is to say none at all.

I think thats a load of crap.

We got a lot of great joker things from Ledger that nobody else managed to put on screen thus far.

1) He had subtle cruel humor in his plans. He blocks the road by lighting a fire truck on fire. Thus making it a fire-truck.

He crosses out the S in slaughter on the truck hes in so it says laughter. He is exactly the person who would find laughter in slaughter.

2) His origin is a mystery. None of this Jack Napier gak. Nobody knows who he is or where he came from.

3) His plans manipulate everyone around him. From the bank heist to the crime familys to dent. There was no point in that movie where he wasn't pulling thread after thread to get to batman. He didn't care about the money. He needed the criminals angry and desperate.


Leto is a growling weirdo who doesn't seem to have any actual goals. Granted we didn't see much. But what we saw wasn't good.

Nicholson's plan was weird cartoony nonsense. He couldn't manipulate his way out of a paper bag. He had goons simply because the plot required him to have goons.

 Elbows wrote:
I don't think you'll find many people who agree with your opinion (keep in mind, it's indeed your opinion).

I never understood why so many people thought Ledger's performance as the Joker was so great. I'll grant you he came across completely insane, but he lacked the zany humor that is what distinguishes the Joker for a random psychopath.

But I admit, a lot of people did seem to like it for some reason.

 Formosa wrote:
3rd or 4th best joker and only got an oscar because he died

I just read a thread where someone compared "asking people why they complain about games they don't play" to soviet-style treatment of dissidents, and damned if that wasn't only the second most outlandish thing I saw on here today.

He didn’t deserve an Oscar for that role in a climate that traditionally ignored sci fi, fantasy and comic book movies, in the context of the times it seemed like pure pandering, bare in mind Hollywood is behind the times and traditionally out of touch with the general public, these days it’s different, if dark knight came out now then it’s likely he would have received a nomination (had he not died) and not won the Oscar as comic book movies have become mainstream.

As for the snubbing of sci fi, fantasy and comic movies, some of the biggest directors and producers over the years have come out and directly stated it, even some on the Oscar committies have stated that “such low brow movies are not what the oscars are for”

They are very elitist.

@ Lance: No offence, but to me your list reads more like directorial decisions, rather than anything Ledger (who I admittedly like) would have had influence over? Or do I need to go Wiki something?

Really, I thought he was good, but just a bit too extrovert ... Also, no comparisons implied. I'm talking about Ledger only.

 Lance845 wrote:
I think thats a load of crap.

We got a lot of great joker things from Ledger that nobody else managed to put on screen thus far.

1) He had subtle cruel humor in his plans. He blocks the road by lighting a fire truck on fire. Thus making it a fire-truck.

He crosses out the S in slaughter on the truck hes in so it says laughter. He is exactly the person who would find laughter in slaughter.

2) His origin is a mystery. None of this Jack Napier gak. Nobody knows who he is or where he came from.

3) His plans manipulate everyone around him. From the bank heist to the crime familys to dent. There was no point in that movie where he wasn't pulling thread after thread to get to batman. He didn't care about the money. He needed the criminals angry and desperate.


Leto is a growling weirdo who doesn't seem to have any actual goals. Granted we didn't see much. But what we saw wasn't good.

Nicholson's plan was weird cartoony nonsense. He couldn't manipulate his way out of a paper bag. He had goons simply because the plot required him to have goons.

I believe that you have completely failed to distinguish the actor from the writer.

Everything you mention as good about Ledger came from the writer's room, none of that was from his performance as an actor. Any other actor could have played the Joker to do those things. Nicholson could have just as easily lit a fire truck on fire, or crossed out an S; they could have omitted his origin, but the writers wanted parallelism for comparison and contrast. The acting part is about how he plays it, not the storytelling.

Leto was awful, with an absolute lock on "worst Joker". But he actually was acting. Just doing a really bad job of it, because it wasn't believable at all. Of course, suspension of disbelief was a huge problem for SS, due to poor writing and poor directing.

Nicholson's plan wasn't acting, though, it was writing. As the first realistic Joker (recall that it followed Romero's pure camp TV version), it was excellent. The biggest flaw in Burton's version was having to appease Warner by adding a song-and-dance number.

I think we can all agree that: Mark Hamill's Joker > everyone else's Joker, right?

Im not missing what was the writer and what was the actor.

What i am saying is ledgers joker is the best joker we have seen live action. Ledger in no way did a bad job with the writing and directing he was given. He did a good job with it and gave us the best version so far.

Deserves an award? Probably not. But the acadamy awards are nonsense anyway so what difference does that make? We all know they are not impartial or even practical in who wins what. So why does anyone care who won what or didnt?

I was simply saying when people talk up ledgers joker they are talking up that JOKER. Not necessarily ledger, but the character we got.

 Vulcan wrote:

 Elbows wrote:
I don't think you'll find many people who agree with your opinion (keep in mind, it's indeed your opinion).

I never understood why so many people thought Ledger's performance as the Joker was so great. I'll grant you he came across completely insane, but he lacked the zany humor that is what distinguishes the Joker for a random psychopath.

But I admit, a lot of people did seem to like it for some reason.

Yeah, for some reason they really liked Ledger's performance of a completely insane psychopath. The "zany humor" of the joker was always second to the fact that he is a cold hearted murderer who would shoot anybody in the face to cause a little chaos.

But for some reason people see a clown suit and go "HES GOTTA BE FUNNY"

 Ouze wrote:
I just read a thread where someone compared "asking people why they complain about games they don't play" to soviet-style treatment of dissidents, and damned if that wasn't only the second most outlandish thing I saw on here today.

I know right? Ledger's Joker was phenomenal and that movie was a masterpiece.

squidhills wrote:
I think we can all agree that: Mark Hamill's Joker > everyone else's Joker, right?

Same as Kevin Conroy's Batman.

I think that's an assumed fact.

Been through this before. The fact is, the Joker has been treated many different ways in the source material -- to point where creators like Grant Morrison and Geoff Johns addressed it in different ways. So saying this or that performance "is" or "isn't" the Joker is actually very silly.

For my money, Ledger's *performance* was the best we've seen in live action so far. He absolutely disappeared into the part. Clearly Nicholson had a lot of fun with the role, but I wouldn't call it one of his career-best performances. At all.

This is also where Joaquin Phoenix says, 'hold my beer.'

...is he at the theater watching Captain Marvel with us when he says that?

Just under two months until we can finally see for ourselves!

And then only about a month after that before Captain Marvel hits the screen again!

And then only a few weeks after that before Captain Marvel hits the screen again!

 Alpharius wrote:
...is he at the theater watching Captain Marvel with us when he says that?

Just under two months until we can finally see for ourselves!

And then only about a month after that before Captain Marvel hits the screen again!

And then only a few weeks after that before Captain Marvel hits the screen again!

There, or under your bed.



Back on topic, it certainly is interesting that we have feature films for both Marvel's and DC's Captain Marvel coming for the first time ever, and they're releasing within weeks of one another.

I imagine that scene would quite literally scare most of us to death, in reality!

And yes, all these Captain Marvel appearances - 3 in 3 months time - should be good fun!

 gorgon wrote:
This is also where Joaquin Phoenix says, 'hold my beer.'

I bet he would make a great Joker!

Too bad he got handed the script on a Joker origin story that will probably be real bad.

 Formosa wrote:
He didn’t deserve an Oscar for that role in a climate that traditionally ignored sci fi, fantasy and comic book movies, in the context of the times it seemed like pure pandering, bare in mind Hollywood is behind the times and traditionally out of touch with the general public, these days it’s different, if dark knight came out now then it’s likely he would have received a nomination (had he not died) and not won the Oscar as comic book movies have become mainstream.

So let me get this straight.

Instead of celebrating a performance that got recognized despite the traditional shunning of scifi, fantasy, and comic movies by the Hollywood establishment, even if it was recognition that only broke through the bias because of the actors tragic death, you're going to complain about a performance that got recognized for being absolutely phenomenal despite the traditional shunning of scifi, fantasy, and comic movies by the Hollywood establishment on the conditional that he didn't deserve it in a climate that traditionally shuns of scifi, fantasy, and comic movies.

I swear if that isn't the most backward thing I've read in awhile.

 LordofHats wrote:

 Formosa wrote:
He didn’t deserve an Oscar for that role in a climate that traditionally ignored sci fi, fantasy and comic book movies, in the context of the times it seemed like pure pandering, bare in mind Hollywood is behind the times and traditionally out of touch with the general public, these days it’s different, if dark knight came out now then it’s likely he would have received a nomination (had he not died) and not won the Oscar as comic book movies have become mainstream.

So let me get this straight.

Instead of celebrating a performance that got recognized despite the traditional shunning of scifi, fantasy, and comic movies by the Hollywood establishment, even if it was recognition that only broke through the bias because of the actors tragic death, you're going to complain about a performance that got recognized for being absolutely phenomenal despite the traditional shunning of scifi, fantasy, and comic movies by the Hollywood establishment on the conditional that he didn't deserve it in a climate that traditionally shuns of scifi, fantasy, and comic movies.

I swear if that isn't the most backward thing I've read in awhile.

Nope I am going to complain that a performance that was good, but not oscar worthy, got an oscar so hollywood could continue to pat itself on the back about how great they are, and thats all the oscars really are.

The only thing that really matters is if you enjoyed his version of the joker, if you did thats absolutely fine, I liked it too, I dont think it deserved an oscar over things like 2001 a space oddessy (SP?), Alien etc. as by giving an oscar to dark knight, they are saying its better, or its acting is better, and that i do not agree with.

Had he lived then he would likely have got nothing, that makes it an empty gesture from a corrupt system, I liken it to "gi'mes" medals that you earn for sunshine tours like cyprus or hawaii, the medal isnt worth a damn because it hasnt really been earned honestly and its just given because thats what is expected, its fundamentally dishonest to me, you can of course have a different opinion though.

So, if the Oscars are about Hollywood patting itself on the back, why are you upset that Hollywood recognized one of its lost members and then patted itself on the back?

(The idea that Hollywood = The Oscars is pretty laughable anyways)

Braveheart won a Best Picture. Hell, just look at the victories and snubs for Best Picture in the 90's. Whether or not something is Oscar worthy is completely arbitrary.

The nominees for Best Supporting Actor were not great the year that Ledger won it. He was easily the strongest point of the highest grossing film that year and TDK was critically praised.
His death probably clinched the award, but the idea that he was somehow terrible and only won because he died is laughable.

 Dreadwinter wrote:

 gorgon wrote:
This is also where Joaquin Phoenix says, 'hold my beer.'

I bet he would make a great Joker!

Too bad he got handed the script on a Joker origin story that will probably be real bad.

JP is at the level where he sits back, lets the scripts roll in, and chooses what he wants to do. The buzz is that it's a good script. *shrug*

squidhills wrote:
I think we can all agree that: Mark Hamill's Joker > everyone else's Joker, right?

No argument there!


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Lance845 wrote:
Im not missing what was the writer and what was the actor.

What i am saying is ledgers joker is the best joker we have seen live action. Ledger in no way did a bad job with the writing and directing he was given. He did a good job with it and gave us the best version so far.

Deserves an award? Probably not. But the acadamy awards are nonsense anyway so what difference does that make? We all know they are not impartial or even practical in who wins what. So why does anyone care who won what or didnt?

I was simply saying when people talk up ledgers joker they are talking up that JOKER. Not necessarily ledger, but the character we got.

Except I disagree. I don't see anything funny about Heath Ledger's Joker. He's just a run-of-the-mill psychopath, nothing more.

The Joker, on the other hand, has style and a sense of humor that one can relate to. It comes through in Mark Hamil's depiction. It comes through in Jack Nicolson's depiction. Caesar Romero's version overdid the humor and lost the psychotic insanity... but what does one expect from such a campy version of Batman?

But at least Ledger wasn't Leto, on that we can agree.

 trexmeyer wrote:
Braveheart won a Best Picture. Hell, just look at the victories and snubs for Best Picture in the 90's. Whether or not something is Oscar worthy is completely arbitrary.

The nominees for Best Supporting Actor were not great the year that Ledger won it. He was easily the strongest point of the highest grossing film that year and TDK was critically praised.
His death probably clinched the award, but the idea that he was somehow terrible and only won because he died is laughable.

Frank langella frost/Nixon, should have won it, but I concede the point that it was a thin year for compition, as I said he deserved a nomination but circumstances of why he got it do not sit right with me.

 Dreadwinter wrote:

 Vulcan wrote:

 Elbows wrote:
I don't think you'll find many people who agree with your opinion (keep in mind, it's indeed your opinion).

I never understood why so many people thought Ledger's performance as the Joker was so great. I'll grant you he came across completely insane, but he lacked the zany humor that is what distinguishes the Joker for a random psychopath.

But I admit, a lot of people did seem to like it for some reason.

Yeah, for some reason they really liked Ledger's performance of a completely insane psychopath. The "zany humor" of the joker was always second to the fact that he is a cold hearted murderer who would shoot anybody in the face to cause a little chaos.

But for some reason people see a clown suit and go "HES GOTTA BE FUNNY"

You did notice the character is named THE JOKER, right?

The insanity and the humor are part and parcel of the same character. If you only have one aspect, you don't have the Joker.

Ledger's character was absolutely insane.... and humorless. We barely see him laugh at all. Much of the time he's SCOWLING, even when his plans are going well.

When the Joker's plans are going well, he's laughing. Sometimes when he fails, he laughs his backside off over it!

The Joker is mercurial in his moods. He'll go from laughing to murderous in a split-second. And then after killing someone, he'll casually toss off a joke and laugh some more. When facing him you never know if the gun he pulled is real, or if it will 'fire' a flag that says 'bang'. Heck, sometimes even HE doesn't know!

Like I said, Ledger's character was insane; so insane it probably lead to Ledger's death (always a problem when a method actor plays a psychopath). But I just didn't see him as the Joker at all.

@vulcan. Disagree. Joker isn't goofs and gags. Hes horrible. No sane person laughs at his "jokes". Go find a good batman story thats a laugh riot because of the joker.

Hamil was great. But animated was a kids show and the joker was toned back, mostly, to reflect that. But batman beyond return of the joker? Mask of the phantasm? The arkham games? Those are not laugh out loud joker bits. Those are twisted and horrible and go to some real dark places because the joker isnt funny. Hes a monster.

I'm not the best knower of Captain Marvel things, but I did read a short arc on her on Marvel Unlimited a while back, around her "Ms Marvel" time.

That and she's cropped up in the X-Men comics a few times. The sort of sense I got from her was she's like a female James Bond with superpowers, and that was a pretty neat concept.

 Vulcan wrote:

 Dreadwinter wrote:

 Vulcan wrote:

 Elbows wrote:
I don't think you'll find many people who agree with your opinion (keep in mind, it's indeed your opinion).

I never understood why so many people thought Ledger's performance as the Joker was so great. I'll grant you he came across completely insane, but he lacked the zany humor that is what distinguishes the Joker for a random psychopath.

But I admit, a lot of people did seem to like it for some reason.

Yeah, for some reason they really liked Ledger's performance of a completely insane psychopath. The "zany humor" of the joker was always second to the fact that he is a cold hearted murderer who would shoot anybody in the face to cause a little chaos.

But for some reason people see a clown suit and go "HES GOTTA BE FUNNY"

You did notice the character is named THE JOKER, right?

Yeah, that is the joke about his character. Nothing he does is funny, except to him. He thinks he is hilarious. Everybody else thinks he is a murdering cold-blooded psychopath. Because he is.

If you really think the Joker is funny or meant to be funny, I mean, oooof.

I kinda don't want to fall into the offtopicness trap but... I'd disagree with the idea that the Joker isn't supposed to be funny.

I mean, really, most comic characters are entirely dependent on the lens you want to view them through, Batman characters more than most, I'd say.

Personally, I like the idea of a Joker that you find funny, but then you feel really awful about finding it funny.

"I wouldn't worry yet if I were you. It's just a psychological manifestation common among librarians. She thinks she's a coffee table edition. Though I can't say much for this volume's condition; I mean, there's a hole in the jacket... and the spine appears to be damaged."

 Formosa wrote:
got an oscar so hollywood could continue to pat itself on the back about how great they are, and thats all the oscars really are.

For someone denouncing the worth of an Oscar, your sure seem picky who gets them.

It is the Academy Award. Handed out by the Academy. To the Academy. The Academy being a couple thousand Hollywood types who get together yearly for an industry award show, like every industry I can think of.

Had he lived then he would likely have got nothing, that makes it an empty gesture from a corrupt system

Can you even name the other nominees from that year without looking it up? I'm pretty sure Ledger's is the only one people are still making memes with.