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2019/05/15 11:42:22
Subject: Re:What do you think about electric cars?
kronk wrote: I drove a hybrid for 11 years. Other than some factory recalls (4, I think), I never had a mechanical problem. They paid for the recall work, in each case.
I got a new car in March, but I went with Honda CRV. I wanted something a bit larger as we have been going on more road trips.
I considered another hybrid and even full on electric. In the end, since I keep a car for at least 8 years, I think that 8 more years of the electric car industry picking a fething system they can agree on (Betamax vs VHS) and several more years of infrastructure growth (more charging stations acrosss the US), and I will be more comfortable making the switch to electric.
I’m all for it. Not for the environment, mind you. I don’t have kids, I got mine, feth the environment. I would do it to save on gas.
That's our attitude too. It's not really an environmental thing, it's just if we can save money on fuel costs and the car itself is practical to use for mainly city/urban travel with a few longer-distance road trips thrown in per year, we'd be very interested in picking up an EV. The prices at the moment are verging on the high side and the ranges a little on the low side but it's at least a the point where we're considering it.
Waiting for my shill money from Spiral Arm Studios
Yeah, wow. That is just a hair over a $1 billion reduction in profit. That’s a death spiral.
Self-proclaimed evil Cat-person. Dues Ex Felines
Cato Sicarius, after force feeding Captain Ventris a copy of the Codex Astartes for having the audacity to play Deathwatch, chokes to death on his own D-baggery after finding Calgar assembling his new Eldar army.
Tesla's stock price has drop from 258 to 195 in 30 days. wow.
-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
AndrewGPaul wrote: If the US system was deliberately designed to be inferior as you claim, then it's probably a good thing it's not been adopted elsewhere.
Your reading comprehension is amazing.
Andrew or Andrew? I'm confused.
Tesla is not a big hit in Germany these days. I guess we'll see ''better'' e-cars ahead.
Former moderator 40kOnline
Lanchester's square law - please obey in list building!
Illumini: "And thank you for not finishing your post with a "" I'm sorry, but after 7200 's that has to be the most annoying sign-off ever."
Just Tony wrote: https://www.yahoo.com/news/elon-musk-tesla-needs-cut-180656865.html
Since we're linking to stories to back up our stances. Can't wait to see the "spin" on this one...
This highlights a potential weakness with Tesla which, paradoxically, is also one of its biggest strengths. It has its own proprietary charging network, which is great if you own one, but if you're concerned about the company's future it's a bit of a turn-off as far as potentially buying one goes. If there's a chance the company goes under there's a chance you lose that charging infrastructure too. It's admittedly probably a small chance but it's enough to cause concern given the cost of buying a Tesla.
AndrewGPaul wrote: If the US system was deliberately designed to be inferior as you claim, then it's probably a good thing it's not been adopted elsewhere.
Your reading comprehension is amazing.
Andrew or Andrew? I'm confused.
Tesla is not a big hit in Germany these days. I guess we'll see ''better'' e-cars ahead.
The original US system was designed to be very limiting, they didnt really want people buying EVs, thats why Tesla created their own.
This highlights a potential weakness with Tesla which, paradoxically, is also one of its biggest strengths. It has its own proprietary charging network, which is great if you own one, but if you're concerned about the company's future it's a bit of a turn-off as far as potentially buying one goes. If there's a chance the company goes under there's a chance you lose that charging infrastructure too. It's admittedly probably a small chance but it's enough to cause concern given the cost of buying a Tesla.
Not at all, in the US you can use and adapter and in Europe Teslas don't even need one. Teslas can use any CSS charger in Europe....they just wont generally wont charge as fast as a Tesla charger.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Just Tony wrote: https://www.yahoo.com/news/elon-musk-tesla-needs-cut-180656865.html
Since we're linking to stories to back up our stances. Can't wait to see the "spin" on this one...
The article is in itself spin. Just spun by all the FUDs
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Frazzled wrote: Tesla's stock price has drop from 258 to 195 in 30 days. wow.
. I'd really love to see some kind of proof that CCS is more scalable than Tesla, just because the connector is giant and hidious doesn't mean its any better.
Tesla v3 superchargers with liquid cooled cables charge up to 250kw, CCS liquid cooled chargers now charge up to 350kw with the fastest currently deployed chargers (some of them in the US, too). There are more 350kw chargers in use than v3 SCs, too (a single location so far).
And the connector can still go as far as 450kw while the Tesla is pretty much maxed out.
While Tesla still has the single v3 demo charger which is closed to the grand public.
And yes, cooling the cable is pretty much the last lever to get extra charging speeds. Once you get there you know the pins are pretty much maxed. They might, maybe, with better cooling or changing the pin materials get as far up as 300 but the laws of physics are pretty tough on that one. Either more pins (which is the apparently what Tesla will be doing with the Semi megacharger if it ever comes to work) or thicker pins, which is what CCS did.
In any case here is a very good reason on why an industry-wide standard is always a good thing. On one hand you have Tesla doing things their way, on the other side there's everyone else. Doesn't really matter who makes what, because ultimately everyone benefits from more and faster chargers.
The 350 CSS chargers are also cooled. THe fact remains that Tesla still has the largest network of fast chargers in the US and Europe. Are there a few very fast CSS chargers, sure. The vast majority of them hover around 50KWH. Which is pretty much unusable for distance charging.
Standards are great if they are good standards. Teslas charging standards have been far superior than anyone elses.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2019/05/28 17:58:22
"I don't have principles, and I consider any comment otherwise to be both threatening and insulting" - Dogma
"No, sorry, synonymous does not mean same".-Dogma
"If I say "I will hug you" I am threatening you" -Dogma
It will be an awesome opportunity when they run out of money.
-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
Just Tony wrote: https://www.yahoo.com/news/elon-musk-tesla-needs-cut-180656865.html
Since we're linking to stories to back up our stances. Can't wait to see the "spin" on this one...
The article is in itself spin. Just spun by all the FUDs
Wow, you didn't disappoint. I will just go ahead and assume that you will call anything pointing out flaws/issues/downturns for Tesla as spin pieces, while anything that fluffs Tesla is simply unbiased and accurate.
If he wants to be correct, he had to say so. Wuestenfux 1 : 0 Andrew1975
1000 registered units sounds like something, but Munich alone has more than 700000 cars. So your Teslas are a drop in the ocean.
I mean if being the best selling EV in Germany means its not a big hit.........im not sure what does?
Is it a big hit if you are "at the top" amongst a very small part of a market in a publication , a very lobby-heavy one if I dare say? We are looking at a few % ......
A big hit is IMHO something you sell a 1000000 units or more.
Target locked,ready to fire
In dedicatio imperatum ultra articulo mortis.
H.B.M.C :
We were wrong. It's not the 40k End Times. It's the Trademarkening.
If he wants to be correct, he had to say so. Wuestenfux 1 : 0 Andrew1975
1000 registered units sounds like something, but Munich alone has more than 700000 cars. So your Teslas are a drop in the ocean.
I mean if being the best selling EV in Germany means its not a big hit.........im not sure what does?
Is it a big hit if you are "at the top" amongst a very small part of a market in a publication , a very lobby-heavy one if I dare say? We are looking at a few % ......
A big hit is IMHO something you sell a 1000000 units or more.
Just Tony wrote: https://www.yahoo.com/news/elon-musk-tesla-needs-cut-180656865.html
Since we're linking to stories to back up our stances. Can't wait to see the "spin" on this one...
The article is in itself spin. Just spun by all the FUDs
Wow, you didn't disappoint. I will just go ahead and assume that you will call anything pointing out flaws/issues/downturns for Tesla as spin pieces, while anything that fluffs Tesla is simply unbiased and accurate.
Neither do you. You make mountain out of every mole hill to support your position, but FUDers go to FUD. Its pretty easy to take a quote and use it out of context. Essentially he said if they continued to operate as they did they would go bankrupt. Which is true, but they arent operating that way anymore. Lets see the Q2 sales numbers. Also Tesla spent tons of money building its Chinese facility, that facility is now almost finished and should be making cars (Tarrif free by the way) pretty soon.
Ensis Ferrae wrote: Wait. . . . did this guy really just tell a GERMAN "if you understood the German market" ?!?!?!?
Wow.
Dude, we get it, you're Tesla's #1 fan boy. But seriously, things are not as rosy as you keep saying they are.
I would say anyone who expects a company to sell 1million units of a certain model a person who doesn't understand any car market much less his own. Its been done a total of six times and thats with global numbers. I highly doubt anyone has sold 1 million units of any car in 6 months in Germany. So yeah he doesn't understand.
The German car market is very protected, dominated by consumer loyalty to their own country, the sales figures of the model 3 in Germany are astronomical and far better than anyone had anticipated. In general Germans don't buy American cars (can't say blame them, I think most US cars are inferior) but US cars have only a 0.5 percent market share in Germany. Tesla is by far outpacing that trend.
https://bestsellingcarsblog.com/2012/06/world-the-models-that-sold-over-1-million-units-in-a-single-year/
It's not all that protected. Germany is in the EU, so any cars built within the EU can be imported without any tax added. This includes lots of big companies such as Nissan, Toyota, Fiat, Renault, Citroen, Skoda, and Seat,
The Germans are loyal to their own manufacturers partly because they make very good cars.
Plus their own inspectors are more favorable to faking emissions results...
-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
Kilkrazy wrote: It's not all that protected. Germany is in the EU, so any cars built within the EU can be imported without any tax added. This includes lots of big companies such as Nissan, Toyota, Fiat, Renault, Citroen, Skoda, and Seat,
The Germans are loyal to their own manufacturers partly because they make very good cars.
Oh, I wasn't saying they are protected by the government, I meant that it was protected by the loyalty of the German people to buy domestically produced vehicles. That being said they also make excellent cars. What I am saying is that for Tesla to sell as many vehicles as they do IN GERMANY is a testament to how good the Teslas are as cars, Germans tend to not buy gak cars.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Frazzled wrote: Plus their own inspectors are more favorable to faking emissions results...
No emissions with a Tesla unless you count Fart mode.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/05/29 17:24:27
"I don't have principles, and I consider any comment otherwise to be both threatening and insulting" - Dogma
"No, sorry, synonymous does not mean same".-Dogma
"If I say "I will hug you" I am threatening you" -Dogma
Kilkrazy wrote: It's not all that protected. Germany is in the EU, so any cars built within the EU can be imported without any tax added. This includes lots of big companies such as Nissan, Toyota, Fiat, Renault, Citroen, Skoda, and Seat,
The Germans are loyal to their own manufacturers partly because they make very good cars.
Oh, I wasn't saying they are protected by the government, I meant that it was protected by the loyalty of the German people to buy domestically produced vehicles. That being said they also make excellent cars. What I am saying is that for Tesla to sell as many vehicles as they do IN GERMANY is a testament to how good the Teslas are as cars, Germans tend to not buy gak cars.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Frazzled wrote: Plus their own inspectors are more favorable to faking emissions results...
No emissions with a Tesla unless you count Fart mode.
I am talking about German cars...cough *** Volkswagen *** cough...
-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
If he wants to be correct, he had to say so. Wuestenfux 1 : 0 Andrew1975
1000 registered units sounds like something, but Munich alone has more than 700000 cars. So your Teslas are a drop in the ocean.
I mean if being the best selling EV in Germany means its not a big hit.........im not sure what does?
Is it a big hit if you are "at the top" amongst a very small part of a market in a publication , a very lobby-heavy one if I dare say? We are looking at a few % ......
A big hit isIMHOsomething you sell a 1000000 units or more.
Andrew1975 wrote:
OK, then you have to show a model that sells 1 million units a year in Germany or in a quarter......i'll wait. To put it in perspective, Tesla almost outsold ALL of Porsche in GERMANY! If you understood the German market, you would know how insane that is. Those are some pretty big goal posts you are putting up!https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2019-04-03/tesla-closes-in-on-porsche-in-germany-as-model-3-sales-jump
Porsche, well known for inexpensive cars.... oh wait. They are not. So you deem a Luxury product of 100000+ € your choice? I thought those cars you like so much are "affordable".?
Andrew1975 wrote:
I would say anyone who expects a company to sell 1million units of a certain model a person who doesn't understand any car market much less his own. Its been done a total of six times and thats with global numbers. I highly doubt anyone has sold 1 million units of any car in 6 months in Germany. So yeah he doesn't understand.
1000 registered units sounds like something, but Munich alone has more than 700000 cars. So your Teslas are a drop in the ocean.
Andrew1975 wrote:
I mean if being the best selling EV in Germany means its not a big hit.........im not sure what does?
Is it a big hit if you are "at the top" amongst a very small part of a market in a publication , a very lobby-heavy one if I dare say? We are looking at a few % ......
A big hit isIMHOsomething you sell a 1000000 units or more.
Does understand you wont read what I wrote. I said big hit = 1000000. and IMHO too.
And your reply is?
If you just read the whole story .... come on, its pretty spelled out there.
The Sedan is not the typical car here. Maybe 25 % of a model if you want to believe the link you have posted....
Andrew1975 wrote:
Oh, I wasn't saying they are protected by the government, I meant that it was protected by the loyalty of the German people to buy domestically produced vehicles. That being said they also make excellent cars. What I am saying is that for Tesla to sell as many vehicles as they do IN GERMANY is a testament to how good the Teslas are as cars, Germans tend to not buy gak cars.
We have lots of "foreign" cars here, just very very few from the USA. And Tesla wont change that. Teslas are as common as , for example a Corvette. Or a Jeep. Or worse, you'll see 1 tesla for 2 or 3 of the other...
OTOH France/Italy/Japan/Korea, not hard to find on our streets.
You clearly said for a car to be a big hit it has to sell 1000000. Then your opinion is impossible, nobody has sold 1 million models of any car in Germany in 5 months, which I'm not even sure the Model 3 has been available that long.
The Model 3 sedan is out selling German sedans, now if you want to count all the wagon versions of an Audi model, thats fine, but the model 3 doesn't have a wagon model. Thats why the auto industry has these things called segments, sedans and wagons are in different segments. A Mazda 3 sedan is not in the same segment as a Mazda 3 Hatchback even though they are very similar cars. A VW golf is not in the same segment as a Jetta.
Yes there are lots of options in Germany, however looking at raw data the vast majority of cars sold in Germany are domestically produced. Its a hard market especially for American cars doubly so for American cars not produced specifically for the European market.
And if you want to talk about a segment being lobbied......I mean, oil is probably the largest and most powerful lobby in the world. soooooooooo.
Fart mode is the default mode for German cars, they only run clean when you hook them up to diagnostic equipment. Which is why they have to pay for our electric charging infrastructure now.
A California lobbyist for Chevron is urging retirees of the oil company in Arizona to oppose electric-car policies, saying the vehicles are too expensive for most people and should not be promoted. From a report:
A handful of people who either retired from Chevron or from Unocal, which Chevron acquired in 2005, have used the form letter to urge Arizona Corporation Commissioners not to require electric companies here to build electric-car charging stations. Form letters are commonly used to lobby commissioners, but the secretive nature of this campaign has drawn criticism, including from a retiree who alerted commissioners to the lobbyist's effort.
The letters discourage electric-car infrastructure. "Let the electric vehicle industry finance the construction of the infrastructure from which it will benefit, rather than burdening most Arizona ratepayers with the costs of supporting the electric vehicle market," wrote Sel Larsen, the president of the Arizona retirees group. The letter-writing campaign is a response to a March document from the Corporation Commission asking electric companies in Arizona to propose how they will roll out electric-vehicle infrastructure and incorporate electric vehicles into their business.
Or maybe that its roasting high end German cars on your own turf. Thats a BMW M2 trying to pass the Tesla....it can't.
I like electric cars and think they ahave a major part to play, but no, that does not show it "roasting high end German cars on your own turf".
1) That's an M2. It is not high end. It is the same price as the Tesla. It's low to mid range performance car in the same market as the Tesla.
2) That's the Nürburgring, not a race track. It is an open session. The M2 is following the Tesla, and keeping up no problem.If the M2 was trying to pass one of them would have been black flagged.
3) The Tesla driver, frankly, is driving like a bit of a gakker. The M2 drives very sensibly, waiting for other drivers to pull right to let him pass. The Tesla is following cars far to close and trying to bully them out of the way.
At best that shows that the Tesla 3's performance is similar to equivalent cars. Not even current ones. The M2 is now end of life, and the Model 3 is brand new.
Seriously, Tesla's are not bad cars, but they are not better than the competition, unless you take some very specific metrics and ignore their history of woeful reliability and their inability to meet demand, both for new cars and parts when something goes wrong.
insaniak wrote: Sometimes, Exterminatus is the only option.
And sometimes, it's just a case of too much scotch combined with too many buttons...
2019/05/30 09:37:36
Subject: Re:What do you think about electric cars?
Steve steveson wrote: Seriously, Tesla's are not bad cars, but they are not better than the competition, unless you take some very specific metrics and ignore their history of woeful reliability and their inability to meet demand, both for new cars and parts when something goes wrong.
Have you NOT been following the thread? That's exactly what he's been doing.
I know that's what he is doing, but I thought it worth restating for clarification of my statement. I wanted to state that I have no issue with electric cars or Tesla before the inevitable reply that everyone else has had painting every statement I have made as somehow anti either electric cars, Tesla or both.
insaniak wrote: Sometimes, Exterminatus is the only option.
And sometimes, it's just a case of too much scotch combined with too many buttons...
2019/05/30 13:45:52
Subject: Re:What do you think about electric cars?
Or maybe that its roasting high end German cars on your own turf. Thats a BMW M2 trying to pass the Tesla....it can't.
I like electric cars and think they ahave a major part to play, but no, that does not show it "roasting high end German cars on your own turf".
1) That's an M2. It is not high end. It is the same price as the Tesla. It's low to mid range performance car in the same market as the Tesla.
2) That's the Nürburgring, not a race track. It is an open session. The M2 is following the Tesla, and keeping up no problem.If the M2 was trying to pass one of them would have been black flagged.
3) The Tesla driver, frankly, is driving like a bit of a gakker. The M2 drives very sensibly, waiting for other drivers to pull right to let him pass. The Tesla is following cars far to close and trying to bully them out of the way.
The M2 is following [u]the M3P, and they're friends. That was the purpose of the video.
If anything you can say that the M3 can't shake off the M2.
2019/05/30 14:58:00
Subject: Re:What do you think about electric cars?
The Model 3 sedan is out selling German sedans, now if you want to count all the wagon versions of an Audi model, thats fine, but the model 3 doesn't have a wagon model.
Thats why the auto industry has these things called segments, sedans and wagons are in different segments. A Mazda 3 sedan is not in the same segment as a Mazda 3 Hatchback even though they are very similar cars. A VW golf is not in the same segment as a Jetta.
It doesn't matter if your american company is big in pick up trucks if almost no one over here buys pick ups.
The majority of the sold VW Golf for example would be classified in the 2 most common categories, one being at 22% and the other at 18,5 % ( source : kba ) , the smaller Polo / Lupo in a group of 14,5 % , the Passat in another of 10,9%.
Our market isn't just luxury driving for the filhty rich ( tesla "toys", it starts down there at ( ignoring used cars ) ~ 8000€ .
Imported Cars sorted by brands , Top 4: Skoda 5,7% , Renault 3,8% , Seat 3,5 % , Hyundai 3,3 % .
Your precious Tesla gets special attention: (2017: +74,6 % vs 2018: -42,8 %) You see this - ? not a + ? And not part of the Top either.
Jumping up ( +74) and down (-42) seems more like a hype than a product...
Yes we got more cars from 2010 to 2019:
Had 41737627 in 2010, now at 47095784.
As you may see, the shares change a bit over time:
France had ~ 10% and lost a little bit to ~ 8% , Japan almost kept their share of ~11% which is now at ~10%, South korea managed to grow from ~ 2% to 4%.
Or maybe that its roasting high end German cars on your own turf. Thats a BMW M2 trying to pass the Tesla....it can't.
I like electric cars and think they ahave a major part to play, but no, that does not show it "roasting high end German cars on your own turf".
1) That's an M2. It is not high end. It is the same price as the Tesla. It's low to mid range performance car in the same market as the Tesla.
2) That's the Nürburgring, not a race track. It is an open session. The M2 is following the Tesla, and keeping up no problem.If the M2 was trying to pass one of them would have been black flagged.
3) The Tesla driver, frankly, is driving like a bit of a gakker. The M2 drives very sensibly, waiting for other drivers to pull right to let him pass. The Tesla is following cars far to close and trying to bully them out of the way.
At best that shows that the Tesla 3's performance is similar to equivalent cars. Not even current ones. The M2 is now end of life, and the Model 3 is brand new.
Seriously, Tesla's are not bad cars, but they are not better than the competition, unless you take some very specific metrics and ignore their history of woeful reliability and their inability to meet demand, both for new cars and parts when something goes wrong.
Interesting opinions there. Most reports I've read have the M2 as a pretty decent drivers car in most repects better than an M3, The M2 clearly gets dusted on acceleration repeatedly, you are also clearly allowed to pass on the track, so i don't know what you are talking about. Nobody said this guy was a professional driver in fact there are three people in the Tesla. Just another FUDer whos got to FUD.
Gunboat diplomacy.
REMOVED - BROOKM
It is easy to pass a Tesla, usually they are standing around charging.... not even a challenge for pedestrians!
I bet you take far more time out of your day fueling your car than I do, i just plug it in when i get home and wake up to a fresh car. No need to drive around, look for a gas station and wait for 15 minutes.
So here are some other numbers. "During its initial test under the hands of the professional driver, the Model 3 Performance lapped the track in 1:23.90. Equipped with Track Mode’s “release version,” the electric sedan completed the same course in 1:21.49. That time pretty much matches the record of the 2016 Porsche Cayman GT4, and is far quicker than the Alfa Romeo Giulia Quadrifoglio’s 1:22.78 lap. Perhaps more remarkable was that the Model 3 Performance’s new record in the Willow Springs Streets actually ended up beating one of Motor Trend‘s Best Driver’s Car winners in the past — the 2011 Ferrari 458 Italia, which completed the course in 1:22.30.
This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2019/05/31 14:23:37
"I don't have principles, and I consider any comment otherwise to be both threatening and insulting" - Dogma
"No, sorry, synonymous does not mean same".-Dogma
"If I say "I will hug you" I am threatening you" -Dogma
" I'm sorry, but after 7200 's that has to be the most annoying sign-off ever." 
Wuestenfux 1 : 0 Andrew1975
Porsche, well known for inexpensive cars.... 
They must have a fart mode. Partially owned by the government..... 
6000 pts - 
4000 pts - Harlies: 1000 pts - 
1000 pts
, it starts down there at ( ignoring used cars ) ~ 8000€ .
