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Made in fi
Courageous Space Marine Captain






 H.B.M.C. wrote:
It's disturbing how gleeful some of you are at the idea of various armies losing their identity.

I find it sad how many people seem to think that this identity is made of insignificant technical minutiae.

Only the insane have strength enough to prosper. Only those who prosper may truly judge what is sane. 
   
Made in us
Shadowy Grot Kommittee Memba





 Type40 wrote:
 JNAProductions wrote:
 Type40 wrote:
 Gregor Samsa wrote:
no space marine armies had much of an identity to begin with. Their most famous chapters, ultramarines, are perhaps some of the dullest characters in the 40k universe. Attested to by the fact that the Space Marine books are extremely difficult to write. Its an extremely one-dimensional trope.


This is subjective.
Where I agree, subjectively, that ultramarines are dull and boring. DA/BA/SW are rife with unique identity, stories, atmosphere and lore. This is a part of why its ridiculous that these factions are being integrated to work exactly like ultramarines... SW arnt codex complient, they dont operate in the same way, the only similarity is they share most of the same gear (yes, primaris count as gear) . the eldar all use similar gear, lets consolidate them, why arn't gene stealer cults and IG in the same codex ? I feel like alot of people here have never actually played a match with or picke up a SW codex... The faction is as different as CSM, GK, DG, TS is to SM ... again, other then primaris.
What Eldar and Dark Eldar units share gear?


fusion, power weapons, haywire, some shurriken technology.
dark eldar add poison and call it something else. Also, alot of similar armor.

sure there are alot of differences, but they share some things.


Uh...no? Dark Eldar do not have any fusion guns.

Eldar have no haywire guns.

Dark eldar have no shuriken guns.

Dark eldar poison weaponry is a totally different weapon than eldar shuriken weaponry.

Eldar shuriken gun: Assault 2 12" range strength 4 Ap- AP-3 on a 6.

Dark Eldar poison gun: Rapid Fire 1 24" range Strenth 1 Ap- always wounds non-vehicles on a 4+.

If those are "basically the same" then every single troop choice unit in 40k is "basically the same."

You've got "alot of similar armor" by which you mean...um...there are units with 5+, 4+ and 3+ armor saves in both the eldar and dark eldar codexes? So...Tau and Space Marines have "basically the same armor"...I mean, crisis suits and stealth suits have 3+, that's basically the same right?

"I can't believe all these tryhard WAACs out there just care about winning all the time when it's supposed to be a game for fun!!!!!!! Also here's my 27 page essay on why marines are OP and Orkz should get a bunch of OP rules so I can win more games

-the_scotsman"

-ERJAK 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut




 Type40 wrote:
or, why not just release a single codex. with 10 units

entery 1
small
troopers

entery 2
big
troopers

entry 3
Armored unit

Entry 4
Sniper unit

Entry 5
multiple fast vehicle unit

Entry 6
flying jumppack style unit

Entry 7
Armored fast vehicle

entry 8
heavy armored vehicle

entry 9
Flyer

entry 10
Lord of war.


there, we can have 10 datasheets. you can apply them to any models with any asthetics. We fix the balancing issues. Your lore is what ever lore you want because everything is "counts as " one of these 10 datasheets.

Why not, 10 datasheets could easily represent everything in the game. Why bother making more then one codex at all. Nothing will ever be unbalanced, everyone will have access to exactly the same stuff. No one will recieve an special attention. That's it. And then you buy what ever models you want and simply pretend you are playing a unique army.

Why not this ? if SW are just like everything else whilst having similar differences between CSM and SM ... then why not just amalgamate everything into one, mechanically bland little set of rules ? just like any out of the box board game?

Chapter Marines are Chapter Marines and need to be treated as such. Deal with it.

CaptainStabby wrote:
If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.

 jy2 wrote:
BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.

 vipoid wrote:
Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?

 MarsNZ wrote:
ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
 
   
Made in se
[DCM]
δ³Σx²





 Lance845 wrote:
 Type40 wrote:

Anyone complaining about lore being the primary justification for units should be asking why Space Wolves are either a) havent been hunted to extiction for allowing the wolfen to exist or b) turned traitor because the imperium is hunting them because the wolfen exist.

They are non codex compliant and allow chaos mutants to march around with them. Its not that the SW are not loyal themselves. Its that the unforgiving bureaucracy of the imperium should have turned on them by now.


Not being codex compliant and allowing mutants to exist is preciously why the space wolves, lore wise, are a different faction then SM... also they arnt hunted down because the emperor decreed that the space wolves would always be loyal to the custodes in 30k ... this stands. The wolves have always gotten away with more in the lore, psykers, wulfin, not being codex compliant and that all had a lore justification.


p.s. why do people think space wolves existing means other factions arnt getting attention.... the last 2 years has been primaris palooza. space wolves got one named character... woopdiecrap ,,,, the rest has been white bread boring bland generic space marine crap coming out of our azzoozzas .the existence of the other marine factions isnt whats stoping other factions from getting attention. if anything the only reason DA/BA/SW got anything more then the other none marine factions is because GW wants these three to go white bread to increase sales of generic, uninspired, bland units... less work for them, more sales for them.


Bull gak. The cursed founding was a cluster feth for all chapters and they all got hunted down and purged or sent on suicide missions. The Wulfen are what pushes them over the edge into enemy of the imperium territory.

You still get librarians you call rune priests. You still get to call your things sky claws, and blood claws, and whatever else. Hell, chances are GW is going to released Primaris Wulfen for you down the line. Because it's that or squatting them. Your lore is in tact. Your chapter tactics are in tact even though they go by a common name now. You have literally nothing to complain about.


Ok,,, let me try and make it clear to you...
I don't want to just call tac marines grey hunters. I dont want to just call assault marines blood claws. I want the unique units that i got into the game to play not work exactly like, play exactly like, or be exactly like some other army I didnt choose to get into the game to play. I like that my army was different (even if the differences seem trivial to you for what ever reason). I like that my army felt unique and felt like i wasn't just playing bland white bread. I liked my army having a unique, mechanics based, identity.

If you seriously dont understand the appeal of that, then look a few posts up and check out my proposal for a 10 datasheet game.

Its not that hard to understand. this amalgamation doesnt solve any problems with the game. It just removes from the game.whilst giving GW an excuse to do less work for more proffit.

As an aside, as "infinite" rolls is actually impossible even if the FAQ "allows" it, then it will always be a non-zero chance to pass them all. Eventually the two players will die. If they pass the game on to their decendents, they too will eventually die. And, at the end of it all, the universe will experience heat death and it, too, will die. In the instance of "infinite" hits, we're talking more of functional infinity, rather than literal.

RAW you can't pass the game onto descendants, permissive ruleset. Unless we get an FAQ from GW.
 
   
Made in us
Shadowy Grot Kommittee Memba





 JNAProductions wrote:
 Type40 wrote:
 JNAProductions wrote:
 Type40 wrote:
 Gregor Samsa wrote:
no space marine armies had much of an identity to begin with. Their most famous chapters, ultramarines, are perhaps some of the dullest characters in the 40k universe. Attested to by the fact that the Space Marine books are extremely difficult to write. Its an extremely one-dimensional trope.


This is subjective.
Where I agree, subjectively, that ultramarines are dull and boring. DA/BA/SW are rife with unique identity, stories, atmosphere and lore. This is a part of why its ridiculous that these factions are being integrated to work exactly like ultramarines... SW arnt codex complient, they dont operate in the same way, the only similarity is they share most of the same gear (yes, primaris count as gear) . the eldar all use similar gear, lets consolidate them, why arn't gene stealer cults and IG in the same codex ? I feel like alot of people here have never actually played a match with or picke up a SW codex... The faction is as different as CSM, GK, DG, TS is to SM ... again, other then primaris.
What Eldar and Dark Eldar units share gear?


fusion, power weapons, haywire, some shurriken technology.
dark eldar add poison and call it something else. Also, alot of similar armor.

sure there are alot of differences, but they share some things.
Not counting Relic gear from unique characters...

They share Plasma Grenades, for Ranged Weapons.
They share Power Swords, for Melee Weapons.

That's it. That's literally it.


Eldar share more pieces of wargear with space marines than dark eldar.

Missile Launcher, Fusion Gun, Power Sword, Melta Bomb.

"I can't believe all these tryhard WAACs out there just care about winning all the time when it's supposed to be a game for fun!!!!!!! Also here's my 27 page essay on why marines are OP and Orkz should get a bunch of OP rules so I can win more games

-the_scotsman"

-ERJAK 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut




 Type40 wrote:
 Lance845 wrote:
 Type40 wrote:

Anyone complaining about lore being the primary justification for units should be asking why Space Wolves are either a) havent been hunted to extiction for allowing the wolfen to exist or b) turned traitor because the imperium is hunting them because the wolfen exist.

They are non codex compliant and allow chaos mutants to march around with them. Its not that the SW are not loyal themselves. Its that the unforgiving bureaucracy of the imperium should have turned on them by now.


Not being codex compliant and allowing mutants to exist is preciously why the space wolves, lore wise, are a different faction then SM... also they arnt hunted down because the emperor decreed that the space wolves would always be loyal to the custodes in 30k ... this stands. The wolves have always gotten away with more in the lore, psykers, wulfin, not being codex compliant and that all had a lore justification.


p.s. why do people think space wolves existing means other factions arnt getting attention.... the last 2 years has been primaris palooza. space wolves got one named character... woopdiecrap ,,,, the rest has been white bread boring bland generic space marine crap coming out of our azzoozzas .the existence of the other marine factions isnt whats stoping other factions from getting attention. if anything the only reason DA/BA/SW got anything more then the other none marine factions is because GW wants these three to go white bread to increase sales of generic, uninspired, bland units... less work for them, more sales for them.


Bull gak. The cursed founding was a cluster feth for all chapters and they all got hunted down and purged or sent on suicide missions. The Wulfen are what pushes them over the edge into enemy of the imperium territory.

You still get librarians you call rune priests. You still get to call your things sky claws, and blood claws, and whatever else. Hell, chances are GW is going to released Primaris Wulfen for you down the line. Because it's that or squatting them. Your lore is in tact. Your chapter tactics are in tact even though they go by a common name now. You have literally nothing to complain about.


Ok,,, let me try and make it clear to you...
I don't want to just call tac marines grey hunters. I dont want to just call assault marines blood claws. I want the unique units that i got into the game to play not work exactly like, play exactly like, or be exactly like some other army I didnt choose to get into the game to play. I like that my army was different (even if the differences seem trivial to you for what ever reason). I like that my army felt unique and felt like i wasn't just playing bland white bread. I liked my army having a unique, mechanics based, identity.

If you seriously dont understand the appeal of that, then look a few posts up and check out my proposal for a 10 datasheet game.

Its not that hard to understand. this amalgamation doesnt solve any problems with the game. It just removes from the game.whilst giving GW an excuse to do less work for more proffit.

YEAH it's less work and that's good. It's called "consistency" which Chapter Marines needed for several years.

CaptainStabby wrote:
If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.

 jy2 wrote:
BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.

 vipoid wrote:
Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?

 MarsNZ wrote:
ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
 
   
Made in se
[DCM]
δ³Σx²





Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
 Type40 wrote:

Spoiler:

or, why not just release a single codex. with 10 units

entery 1
small
troopers

entery 2
big
troopers

entry 3
Armored unit

Entry 4
Sniper unit

Entry 5
multiple fast vehicle unit

Entry 6
flying jumppack style unit

Entry 7
Armored fast vehicle

entry 8
heavy armored vehicle

entry 9
Flyer

entry 10
Lord of war.


there, we can have 10 datasheets. you can apply them to any models with any asthetics. We fix the balancing issues. Your lore is what ever lore you want because everything is "counts as " one of these 10 datasheets.

Why not, 10 datasheets could easily represent everything in the game. Why bother making more then one codex at all. Nothing will ever be unbalanced, everyone will have access to exactly the same stuff. No one will recieve an special attention. That's it. And then you buy what ever models you want and simply pretend you are playing a unique army.

Why not this ? if SW are just like everything else whilst having similar differences between CSM and SM ... then why not just amalgamate everything into one, mechanically bland little set of rules ? just like any out of the box board game?

Chapter Marines are Chapter Marines and need to be treated as such. Deal with it.


cool, why arn't grey nights in there ?
why don't we treat all aldar as aldari ?
why don't we treat all horde armies exactly the same ?
why arnt we amalgamating more ?

chapter marines as chapter marines.
why stop there ?
marines as marines ?
CSM and SM should obviously be amalgamated ?
i dont understand why we are drawing lines.

eldar have t3 and so do IG ... lets amalgamte them ,,, they are virtually the same right ?

come on, stop being ignorant. You know these factions play different and have been more or less nothing like SM over the past 20 years.

As an aside, as "infinite" rolls is actually impossible even if the FAQ "allows" it, then it will always be a non-zero chance to pass them all. Eventually the two players will die. If they pass the game on to their decendents, they too will eventually die. And, at the end of it all, the universe will experience heat death and it, too, will die. In the instance of "infinite" hits, we're talking more of functional infinity, rather than literal.

RAW you can't pass the game onto descendants, permissive ruleset. Unless we get an FAQ from GW.
 
   
Made in us
Insect-Infested Nurgle Chaos Lord





In My Lab

Care to explain the differences between Tactical Squads and Grey Hunters?

Crunch only, please-the fluff is staying untouched.

Clocks for the clockmaker! Cogs for the cog throne! 
   
Made in se
[DCM]
δ³Σx²





the_scotsman wrote:
 JNAProductions wrote:
 Type40 wrote:
 JNAProductions wrote:
 Type40 wrote:
 Gregor Samsa wrote:
no space marine armies had much of an identity to begin with. Their most famous chapters, ultramarines, are perhaps some of the dullest characters in the 40k universe. Attested to by the fact that the Space Marine books are extremely difficult to write. Its an extremely one-dimensional trope.


This is subjective.
Where I agree, subjectively, that ultramarines are dull and boring. DA/BA/SW are rife with unique identity, stories, atmosphere and lore. This is a part of why its ridiculous that these factions are being integrated to work exactly like ultramarines... SW arnt codex complient, they dont operate in the same way, the only similarity is they share most of the same gear (yes, primaris count as gear) . the eldar all use similar gear, lets consolidate them, why arn't gene stealer cults and IG in the same codex ? I feel like alot of people here have never actually played a match with or picke up a SW codex... The faction is as different as CSM, GK, DG, TS is to SM ... again, other then primaris.
What Eldar and Dark Eldar units share gear?


fusion, power weapons, haywire, some shurriken technology.
dark eldar add poison and call it something else. Also, alot of similar armor.

sure there are alot of differences, but they share some things.
Not counting Relic gear from unique characters...

They share Plasma Grenades, for Ranged Weapons.
They share Power Swords, for Melee Weapons.

That's it. That's literally it.


Eldar share more pieces of wargear with space marines than dark eldar.

Missile Launcher, Fusion Gun, Power Sword, Melta Bomb.


cool lets put eldar in the marine codex to then ? why not
I am telling you 10 datasheet game, lets make it completely consistent. no variety .

As an aside, as "infinite" rolls is actually impossible even if the FAQ "allows" it, then it will always be a non-zero chance to pass them all. Eventually the two players will die. If they pass the game on to their decendents, they too will eventually die. And, at the end of it all, the universe will experience heat death and it, too, will die. In the instance of "infinite" hits, we're talking more of functional infinity, rather than literal.

RAW you can't pass the game onto descendants, permissive ruleset. Unless we get an FAQ from GW.
 
   
Made in us
Insect-Infested Nurgle Chaos Lord





In My Lab

You're not helping your case by positing a ridiculous extreme that no one asked for.

Clocks for the clockmaker! Cogs for the cog throne! 
   
Made in se
[DCM]
δ³Σx²





 JNAProductions wrote:
Care to explain the differences between Tactical Squads and Grey Hunters?

Crunch only, please-the fluff is staying untouched.


wolf standard (re-rolling 1s on the charge), no heavy weapon, more special weapons, wolf guard leader, chain swords, no combat squads , more plasma pistols.

As an aside, as "infinite" rolls is actually impossible even if the FAQ "allows" it, then it will always be a non-zero chance to pass them all. Eventually the two players will die. If they pass the game on to their decendents, they too will eventually die. And, at the end of it all, the universe will experience heat death and it, too, will die. In the instance of "infinite" hits, we're talking more of functional infinity, rather than literal.

RAW you can't pass the game onto descendants, permissive ruleset. Unless we get an FAQ from GW.
 
   
Made in de
Dakka Veteran




 H.B.M.C. wrote:
It's disturbing how gleeful some of you are at the idea of various armies losing their identity.

Used to play Black Templars back in the day, currently collecting Blood Angels. Identity is not having +1 to wound during the first round of a melee combat. It is not that your Rhinos can move 2" more than the rest. It is not that you don't have a sarge in your squad or a special type of vehicle.

Identity is having your guys look like angels / gods descending from the sky on actual wings or like they just came from a crusade to the near east with all the crosses, chains and knightly armor.
Identity is having a melee unit painted black with red markings to let them charge into the fray making sure neither they nor their target will survive.
Identity is calling your leading hero a "Marshal" during the game and during list creation.
Identity is that one dude in mastercrafted armor with a big sword hunting down enemy character models in every game.

I don't need rules for any of this and yet every single one of you knows exactly what unit or Chapter I'm talking about.
   
Made in se
[DCM]
δ³Σx²





 JNAProductions wrote:
You're not helping your case by positing a ridiculous extreme that no one asked for.


but people are asking for this. They want the game to be more consistent ? I really dont understand, why not take it all the way ?

As an aside, as "infinite" rolls is actually impossible even if the FAQ "allows" it, then it will always be a non-zero chance to pass them all. Eventually the two players will die. If they pass the game on to their decendents, they too will eventually die. And, at the end of it all, the universe will experience heat death and it, too, will die. In the instance of "infinite" hits, we're talking more of functional infinity, rather than literal.

RAW you can't pass the game onto descendants, permissive ruleset. Unless we get an FAQ from GW.
 
   
Made in fi
Courageous Space Marine Captain






What are the rules of the wolf guard leader? How does he differ from a sergeant?

Only the insane have strength enough to prosper. Only those who prosper may truly judge what is sane. 
   
Made in us
Exalted Beastlord




a_typical_hero wrote:
 H.B.M.C. wrote:
It's disturbing how gleeful some of you are at the idea of various armies losing their identity.

Used to play Black Templars back in the day, currently collecting Blood Angels. Identity is not having +1 to wound during the first round of a melee combat. It is not that your Rhinos can move 2" more than the rest. It is not that you don't have a sarge in your squad or a special type of vehicle.

Identity is having your guys look like angels / gods descending from the sky on actual wings or like they just came from a crusade to the near east with all the crosses, chains and knightly armor.
Identity is having a melee unit painted black with red markings to let them charge into the fray making sure neither they nor their target will survive.
Identity is calling your leading hero a "Marshal" during the game and during list creation.
Identity is that one dude in mastercrafted armor with a big sword hunting down enemy character models in every game.

I don't need rules for any of this and yet every single one of you knows exactly what unit or Chapter I'm talking about.

Blood Angels?
What, you said black and red markings melee unit. That's Death Company
Mastercrafted armor, angel wings? BA.



I'm amazed at how much 'yelling at clouds' there is in this thread. Except it isn't even at real clouds, its at the possibility of potential clouds.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/07/28 15:22:18


Efficiency is the highest virtue. 
   
Made in fi
Courageous Space Marine Captain






a_typical_hero wrote:
 H.B.M.C. wrote:
It's disturbing how gleeful some of you are at the idea of various armies losing their identity.

Used to play Black Templars back in the day, currently collecting Blood Angels. Identity is not having +1 to wound during the first round of a melee combat. It is not that your Rhinos can move 2" more than the rest. It is not that you don't have a sarge in your squad or a special type of vehicle.

Identity is having your guys look like angels / gods descending from the sky on actual wings or like they just came from a crusade to the near east with all the crosses, chains and knightly armor.
Identity is having a melee unit painted black with red markings to let them charge into the fray making sure neither they nor their target will survive.
Identity is calling your leading hero a "Marshal" during the game and during list creation.
Identity is that one dude in mastercrafted armor with a big sword hunting down enemy character models in every game.

I don't need rules for any of this and yet every single one of you knows exactly what unit or Chapter I'm talking about.

Amen!

Only the insane have strength enough to prosper. Only those who prosper may truly judge what is sane. 
   
Made in se
[DCM]
δ³Σx²





a_typical_hero wrote:
 H.B.M.C. wrote:
It's disturbing how gleeful some of you are at the idea of various armies losing their identity.

Used to play Black Templars back in the day, currently collecting Blood Angels. Identity is not having +1 to wound during the first round of a melee combat. It is not that your Rhinos can move 2" more than the rest. It is not that you don't have a sarge in your squad or a special type of vehicle.

Identity is having your guys look like angels / gods descending from the sky on actual wings or like they just came from a crusade to the near east with all the crosses, chains and knightly armor.
Identity is having a melee unit painted black with red markings to let them charge into the fray making sure neither they nor their target will survive.
Identity is calling your leading hero a "Marshal" during the game and during list creation.
Identity is that one dude in mastercrafted armor with a big sword hunting down enemy character models in every game.

I don't need rules for any of this and yet every single one of you knows exactly what unit or Chapter I'm talking about.


cool, another point for the 10 datasheet game.

We just remove the variety in the mechanics and we use one of the standard 10 datasheets for your units and you can call them what ever, paint them what ever and pretend they are unique and full of identity.

As an aside, as "infinite" rolls is actually impossible even if the FAQ "allows" it, then it will always be a non-zero chance to pass them all. Eventually the two players will die. If they pass the game on to their decendents, they too will eventually die. And, at the end of it all, the universe will experience heat death and it, too, will die. In the instance of "infinite" hits, we're talking more of functional infinity, rather than literal.

RAW you can't pass the game onto descendants, permissive ruleset. Unless we get an FAQ from GW.
 
   
Made in us
Insect-Infested Nurgle Chaos Lord





In My Lab

Type40 wrote:
 JNAProductions wrote:
You're not helping your case by positing a ridiculous extreme that no one asked for.


but people are asking for this. They want the game to be more consistent ? I really dont understand, why not take it all the way ?
Because people are capable of moderation. I like chocolate-does that mean I must immediately consume every bit of chocolate I see at once?

Space Wolves are vastly more similar to regular Marines than DE are to Eldar or to Harlequins.

Type40 wrote:
 JNAProductions wrote:
Care to explain the differences between Tactical Squads and Grey Hunters?

Crunch only, please-the fluff is staying untouched.


wolf standard (re-rolling 1s on the charge), no heavy weapon, more special weapons, wolf guard leader, chain swords, no combat squads , more plasma pistols.
So, wargear options, a Terminator leader, and a loss of a special rule?

Losing the special rule can be done by... Shocker, not using that rule.
Wargear options can be added to a Space Wolves Equipment table, very easily.
And why should Space Wolves get Terminator leaders when Iron Hands don't? Why are Iron Hands less deserving of that, when they both have it in the fluff?

Clocks for the clockmaker! Cogs for the cog throne! 
   
Made in us
Shadowy Grot Kommittee Memba





OK, how about what they're actually going to do:

You'll get a space wolves supplement.

It'll have the datasheets for blood claws, grey hunters, WG terminators, SW dreads, SW flyers, wolfen, and fenrisian wolves in it, as well as all the named characters.

You'll get a new unit called "Primaris Blood Claws" that is based on the primaris assault marines kit. it'll give you primaris assault marines with BS4+ and the bezerk rule.

And you'll get a new unit called "Primaris Grey Hunters" that gives you something like the ability to take a unit of intercessors with whatever loadout you want - chainsword+pistol, rifle, assault rifle, stalker rifle all mixed up, plus the option for a WG squad leader.

And otherwise, you use the codex space marines units. You lose the fact that bikers are called "swiftclaws" and scouts are called "wolf scouts" but gain stuff like TFCs, Centurions, whatever. Also, you won't have to wait for updates to your stuff independently of marines anymore, or wait for access to new shared equipment.

Everything Space Wolves had that was unique, stays. Everything that was shared, is now updated all at once.

I don't get how this isn't a better system for you. And later on down the line, when the great squattening occurs, you'll have a special space wolves box that takes all the special heads and special armor and special helmets and scales them up to primaris-scale. Of course they'll make that, why would they stop printing cash by making special snowflake marine stuff?


"I can't believe all these tryhard WAACs out there just care about winning all the time when it's supposed to be a game for fun!!!!!!! Also here's my 27 page essay on why marines are OP and Orkz should get a bunch of OP rules so I can win more games

-the_scotsman"

-ERJAK 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut




 Type40 wrote:
 JNAProductions wrote:
Care to explain the differences between Tactical Squads and Grey Hunters?

Crunch only, please-the fluff is staying untouched.


wolf standard (re-rolling 1s on the charge), no heavy weapon, more special weapons, wolf guard leader, chain swords, no combat squads , more plasma pistols.

You have to purchase the standard, nobody uses Combat Squads, and the Guard is just a standard Sergeant.

So really the only difference is Chainswords and the extra Special Weapon instead of the Heavy Weapon.

CaptainStabby wrote:
If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.

 jy2 wrote:
BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.

 vipoid wrote:
Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?

 MarsNZ wrote:
ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
 
   
Made in us
Insect-Infested Nurgle Chaos Lord





In My Lab

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
 Type40 wrote:
 JNAProductions wrote:
Care to explain the differences between Tactical Squads and Grey Hunters?

Crunch only, please-the fluff is staying untouched.


wolf standard (re-rolling 1s on the charge), no heavy weapon, more special weapons, wolf guard leader, chain swords, no combat squads , more plasma pistols.

You have to purchase the standard, nobody uses Combat Squads, and the Guard is just a standard Sergeant.

So really the only difference is Chainswords and the extra Special Weapon instead of the Heavy Weapon.
I think the Wolf Leader can take Terminator armor. That's the difference.

Clocks for the clockmaker! Cogs for the cog throne! 
   
Made in se
[DCM]
δ³Σx²





 Crimson wrote:
What are the rules of the wolf guard leader? How does he differ from a sergeant?


you really havnt opened a SW codex have you ?

Wolf guard leader is in addition to the sgt

you have both
"Grey Hunter Pack Leader"(sgt)
and a
"Wolf Gaurd Pack Leader" (veteran)

The wolf gaurd you add into the squad has access to every wargear option a vetran does. including
Terminator armor,
Storm shields
combi weapons
power weapons
frost weapons
special weapons
etc
etc
etc.

Every non-primaris squad can have a highly specialized model added to the squade with virtually what ever gear you want. Its one of the things that make SW particularly unique... so ya very different from just the sgt... SWs get those too.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
 Type40 wrote:
 JNAProductions wrote:
Care to explain the differences between Tactical Squads and Grey Hunters?

Crunch only, please-the fluff is staying untouched.


wolf standard (re-rolling 1s on the charge), no heavy weapon, more special weapons, wolf guard leader, chain swords, no combat squads , more plasma pistols.

You have to purchase the standard, nobody uses Combat Squads, and the Guard is just a standard Sergeant.

So really the only difference is Chainswords and the extra Special Weapon instead of the Heavy Weapon.


Wrong.
the gaurd is not even remotely close to a standard sergent.
dont even join in this conversation you clearly dont even know what you are arguing against now. Ridiculous. Of course you think its all the same , you don't even know what is in the SW codex. and the standard does make difference whether you purchase it or not,, SM have to purchase the heavy weapon, you dont just exclude that because of that. arbitrarily saying something doesnt count is ridiculous too.

Go pick up a SW codex then come back ... ok ?

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/07/28 15:27:34


As an aside, as "infinite" rolls is actually impossible even if the FAQ "allows" it, then it will always be a non-zero chance to pass them all. Eventually the two players will die. If they pass the game on to their decendents, they too will eventually die. And, at the end of it all, the universe will experience heat death and it, too, will die. In the instance of "infinite" hits, we're talking more of functional infinity, rather than literal.

RAW you can't pass the game onto descendants, permissive ruleset. Unless we get an FAQ from GW.
 
   
Made in us
Dominating Dominatrix






 Type40 wrote:
 Crimson wrote:
What are the rules of the wolf guard leader? How does he differ from a sergeant?


you really havnt opened a SW codex have you ?

Wolf guard leader is in addition to the sgt

you have both
"Grey Hunter Pack Leader"(sgt)
and a
"Wolf Gaurd Pack Leader" (veteran)

The wolf gaurd you add into the squad has access to every wargear option a vetran does. including
Terminator armor,
Storm shields
combi weapons
power weapons
frost weapons
special weapons
etc
etc
etc.

Every non-primaris squad can have a highly specialized model added to the squade with virtually what ever gear you want. Its one of the things that make SW particularly unique... so ya very different from just the sgt... SWs get those too.


And now the Wolf Guard Pack Leader is called a Lt. And GW churns those models out non stop. You will be spoiled for choice.


These are my opinions. This is how I feel. Others may feel differently. This needs to be stated for some reason.
 
   
Made in fi
Courageous Space Marine Captain






 Type40 wrote:
 Crimson wrote:
What are the rules of the wolf guard leader? How does he differ from a sergeant?


you really havnt opened a SW codex have you ?


I have, but not recently.

You can give sergeant an option to take those items.

EDIT: Though indeed as Lance says, Lieutenant is a good way to represent them too.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/07/28 15:28:27


Only the insane have strength enough to prosper. Only those who prosper may truly judge what is sane. 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut




We have opened the Space Wolves codex and they aren't so unique they deserve their own codex. Sounds like you have a problem pretending to be different when you aren't.

CaptainStabby wrote:
If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.

 jy2 wrote:
BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.

 vipoid wrote:
Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?

 MarsNZ wrote:
ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
 
   
Made in se
[DCM]
δ³Σx²





 Crimson wrote:
 Type40 wrote:
 Crimson wrote:
What are the rules of the wolf guard leader? How does he differ from a sergeant?


you really havnt opened a SW codex have you ?


I have, but not recently.

You can give sergeant an option to take those items.


no you cant ?

an wolf gaurd have been in the SW codex since at least 4th ... (when i first played them)

your telling me a SM tac squad sgt can take terminator armor, a storm shield and a thunderhammer.
or they can take a power armor, storm shield, storm bolter ?

your full of it.

As an aside, as "infinite" rolls is actually impossible even if the FAQ "allows" it, then it will always be a non-zero chance to pass them all. Eventually the two players will die. If they pass the game on to their decendents, they too will eventually die. And, at the end of it all, the universe will experience heat death and it, too, will die. In the instance of "infinite" hits, we're talking more of functional infinity, rather than literal.

RAW you can't pass the game onto descendants, permissive ruleset. Unless we get an FAQ from GW.
 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut




 Type40 wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
 Type40 wrote:

Spoiler:

or, why not just release a single codex. with 10 units

entery 1
small
troopers

entery 2
big
troopers

entry 3
Armored unit

Entry 4
Sniper unit

Entry 5
multiple fast vehicle unit

Entry 6
flying jumppack style unit

Entry 7
Armored fast vehicle

entry 8
heavy armored vehicle

entry 9
Flyer

entry 10
Lord of war.


there, we can have 10 datasheets. you can apply them to any models with any asthetics. We fix the balancing issues. Your lore is what ever lore you want because everything is "counts as " one of these 10 datasheets.

Why not, 10 datasheets could easily represent everything in the game. Why bother making more then one codex at all. Nothing will ever be unbalanced, everyone will have access to exactly the same stuff. No one will recieve an special attention. That's it. And then you buy what ever models you want and simply pretend you are playing a unique army.

Why not this ? if SW are just like everything else whilst having similar differences between CSM and SM ... then why not just amalgamate everything into one, mechanically bland little set of rules ? just like any out of the box board game?

Chapter Marines are Chapter Marines and need to be treated as such. Deal with it.


cool, why arn't grey nights in there ?
why don't we treat all aldar as aldari ?
why don't we treat all horde armies exactly the same ?
why arnt we amalgamating more ?

chapter marines as chapter marines.
why stop there ?
marines as marines ?
CSM and SM should obviously be amalgamated ?
i dont understand why we are drawing lines.

eldar have t3 and so do IG ... lets amalgamte them ,,, they are virtually the same right ?

come on, stop being ignorant. You know these factions play different and have been more or less nothing like SM over the past 20 years.

I've already talked about rolling Grey Knights and Deathwatch into one Inquisition codex, so you're on the right track, tiger. I'd also make the same argument if Craftworld Biel-Tan got their own codex that they don't need.

So honestly you're arguing dishonestly which I'm not shocked by.

CaptainStabby wrote:
If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.

 jy2 wrote:
BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.

 vipoid wrote:
Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?

 MarsNZ wrote:
ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
 
   
Made in se
[DCM]
δ³Σx²





 Crimson wrote:
 Type40 wrote:
 Crimson wrote:
What are the rules of the wolf guard leader? How does he differ from a sergeant?


you really havnt opened a SW codex have you ?


I have, but not recently.

You can give sergeant an option to take those items.

EDIT: Though indeed as Lance says, Lieutenant is a good way to represent them too.



a lieutenant is not a part of the tactical squad.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
 Type40 wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
 Type40 wrote:

Spoiler:

or, why not just release a single codex. with 10 units

entery 1
small
troopers

entery 2
big
troopers

entry 3
Armored unit

Entry 4
Sniper unit

Entry 5
multiple fast vehicle unit

Entry 6
flying jumppack style unit

Entry 7
Armored fast vehicle

entry 8
heavy armored vehicle

entry 9
Flyer

entry 10
Lord of war.


there, we can have 10 datasheets. you can apply them to any models with any asthetics. We fix the balancing issues. Your lore is what ever lore you want because everything is "counts as " one of these 10 datasheets.

Why not, 10 datasheets could easily represent everything in the game. Why bother making more then one codex at all. Nothing will ever be unbalanced, everyone will have access to exactly the same stuff. No one will recieve an special attention. That's it. And then you buy what ever models you want and simply pretend you are playing a unique army.

Why not this ? if SW are just like everything else whilst having similar differences between CSM and SM ... then why not just amalgamate everything into one, mechanically bland little set of rules ? just like any out of the box board game?

Chapter Marines are Chapter Marines and need to be treated as such. Deal with it.


cool, why arn't grey nights in there ?
why don't we treat all aldar as aldari ?
why don't we treat all horde armies exactly the same ?
why arnt we amalgamating more ?

chapter marines as chapter marines.
why stop there ?
marines as marines ?
CSM and SM should obviously be amalgamated ?
i dont understand why we are drawing lines.

eldar have t3 and so do IG ... lets amalgamte them ,,, they are virtually the same right ?

come on, stop being ignorant. You know these factions play different and have been more or less nothing like SM over the past 20 years.

I've already talked about rolling Grey Knights and Deathwatch into one Inquisition codex, so you're on the right track, tiger. I'd also make the same argument if Craftworld Biel-Tan got their own codex that they don't need.

So honestly you're arguing dishonestly which I'm not shocked by.


I am not, you want to consolidate the game, then fine. Great, lets make 10 datasheets and every model can follow them. why have unique variations or seperate factions at all ? everything unique can be represented by models and paint.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Seriously. go figure out what the SW codex actually says... its becoming clear here that I am only talking to people who play against/ played primaris in the past year and seem to think every unit in SW operates the same as SM ... which is not the case.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/07/28 15:32:45


As an aside, as "infinite" rolls is actually impossible even if the FAQ "allows" it, then it will always be a non-zero chance to pass them all. Eventually the two players will die. If they pass the game on to their decendents, they too will eventually die. And, at the end of it all, the universe will experience heat death and it, too, will die. In the instance of "infinite" hits, we're talking more of functional infinity, rather than literal.

RAW you can't pass the game onto descendants, permissive ruleset. Unless we get an FAQ from GW.
 
   
Made in fi
Courageous Space Marine Captain






 Type40 wrote:
 Crimson wrote:
 Type40 wrote:
 Crimson wrote:
What are the rules of the wolf guard leader? How does he differ from a sergeant?


you really havnt opened a SW codex have you ?


I have, but not recently.

You can give sergeant an option to take those items.


no you cant ?

an wolf gaurd have been in the SW codex since at least 4th ... (when i first played them)

your telling me a SM tac squad sgt can take terminator armor, a storm shield and a thunderhammer.
or they can take a power armor, storm shield, storm bolter ?

your full of it.


I meant that a sergeant cvan be given access to those items. In the SW supplement. Iron Hands could get similar option in theirs.

a lieutenant is not a part of the tactical squad.

Yes, so? Since 8e many mini characters such as champions, standard bearers, warlocks etc are no longer part of the squad. Same thing.


This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/07/28 15:34:47


Only the insane have strength enough to prosper. Only those who prosper may truly judge what is sane. 
   
Made in se
[DCM]
δ³Σx²





 Lance845 wrote:
 Type40 wrote:
 Crimson wrote:
What are the rules of the wolf guard leader? How does he differ from a sergeant?


you really havnt opened a SW codex have you ?

Wolf guard leader is in addition to the sgt

you have both
"Grey Hunter Pack Leader"(sgt)
and a
"Wolf Gaurd Pack Leader" (veteran)

The wolf gaurd you add into the squad has access to every wargear option a vetran does. including
Terminator armor,
Storm shields
combi weapons
power weapons
frost weapons
special weapons
etc
etc
etc.

Every non-primaris squad can have a highly specialized model added to the squade with virtually what ever gear you want. Its one of the things that make SW particularly unique... so ya very different from just the sgt... SWs get those too.


And now the Wolf Guard Pack Leader is called a Lt. And GW churns those models out non stop. You will be spoiled for choice.


can a lieutenant be in a tactical marine unit ? no. so, GW doesnt do that, do they.

As an aside, as "infinite" rolls is actually impossible even if the FAQ "allows" it, then it will always be a non-zero chance to pass them all. Eventually the two players will die. If they pass the game on to their decendents, they too will eventually die. And, at the end of it all, the universe will experience heat death and it, too, will die. In the instance of "infinite" hits, we're talking more of functional infinity, rather than literal.

RAW you can't pass the game onto descendants, permissive ruleset. Unless we get an FAQ from GW.
 
   
 
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