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grouchoben wrote: If vets went troops I'd run 100% vets: with their strat and BS they jump 100% in damage vs marines. Just sayin.
And what would be wrong with that? You pay more for the models and more their weapons while they die just as fast, and it's not like you can do the strat with every single Veteran squad every single turn. Seems reasonable to me. I mean you could run 100% Scions too if you want.
Pyroalchi wrote: Regarding that rather complex conscript setup:
If I'm not mistaken, the Inquisitor + 2 Astropaths also cost 110 points. So instead you could also get another 22 conscripts. I think in a lot of situations this might be easier, as "Just more conscripts" don't depend in 3 psyker powers going of or alternatively the two Astropaths can protect a more valuable target than a conscript blobs.
So that really is the trade, the real core would be how well the psykers can slow the extinction of a conveyor belt of conscripts vs just grab more conscripts. Currently running 3 conscript blobs of 30 each, 3 10 man infantry, 3 vets. Rest is artillery. Basic goal is to choke objectives and control the board, and the psyker fueled blob is basically trying to slow /smother objectives contention
I'm not super competitive, and sometimes I just enjoy bringing something that is a bit off script. Will let you know what happens if I try it out this fall.
Speaking of vets, my son recently learned the difference between a 10 man guard squad and a 10 man vet squad with 3 plasma and an autocannon as he was trying out his redemptor dread. No doubt if they were a troops choice I'd use them preferentially for a lot of things
MrMoustaffa wrote: Dukeofstuff, your situation seems like something that's just luck of the draw, at least when it comes to terrain. For terrain to be so thick you cant even move a Russ across the table sounds like a ridiculous amount of terrain. I'd have a talk with that TO, or probably avoid that store in the future. I agree there should be a good amount of terrain but Leman Russe's are not big tanks, if they can't move on the table something is horribly wrong. That is going to dramatically skew lists and not in a good way, I can only assume they absolutely hate superheavies and are trying to soft ban them. But I can't speak for your club, it could just be an honest mixup.
I hadn't thougth about superheavies. I think it was just some of the terrain they had was older than this edition and they haven't updated it (perhaps with a hacksaw) yet to fit the new boards. This was, also, the first big event they have held since covid hit.
I have yet to use it in 9th, but in 8th it was absolutely terrible, since you had ONE shot each turn. Not to mention having only 36" range when boards were 72" and your gun could get blown to hell and leave your two useless guardsmen standing there holding their dicks. I really want to try it now, since it has a guaranteed 3 shots and the damage is at least 4, with possible 6 instead of the massively swiningy range it had before.
Automatically Appended Next Post: What does everybody think about the Baneblade platform now, given the changes to the the supreme command detachment? I love my Baneblade and always had it babysat with a Trojan and Salamander Command vehicle, but now that they are useless and legended, respectfully, I feel like they're trying to push them out of 40K and into apocalypse.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/11/25 06:01:36
grouchoben wrote: If vets went troops I'd run 100% vets: with their strat and BS they jump 100% in damage vs marines. Just sayin.
And what would be wrong with that? You pay more for the models and more their weapons while they die just as fast, and it's not like you can do the strat with every single Veteran squad every single turn. Seems reasonable to me. I mean you could run 100% Scions too if you want.
A point upgrade to a model to give it +1bs and access to new strats is very very cheap. Just saying that balance might be upset pretty seriously. Why take IS squads anymore?
grouchoben wrote: If vets went troops I'd run 100% vets: with their strat and BS they jump 100% in damage vs marines. Just sayin.
And what would be wrong with that? You pay more for the models and more their weapons while they die just as fast, and it's not like you can do the strat with every single Veteran squad every single turn. Seems reasonable to me. I mean you could run 100% Scions too if you want.
A point upgrade to a model to give it +1bs and access to new strats is very very cheap. Just saying that balance might be upset pretty seriously. Why take IS squads anymore?
Ideally you bring back platoons, so infantry platoons are your way to get a ton of troops into a small detachment, vets give you lots of cheaper firepower in a detachment.
'I've played Guard for years, and the best piece of advice is to always utilize the Guard's best special rule: "we roll more dice than you" ' - stormleader
"Sector Imperialis: 25mm and 40mm Round Bases (40+20) 26€ (Including 32 skulls for basing) " GW design philosophy in a nutshell
I was thinking of trying a heavy weapon team. All heavy bolters, maybe one lascannon. That have that new strategem that looks pretty powerful. (Concentrated fire: +1 to hit and wound.) Mini sentinel bomb maybe? One for 51 points wouldn't be too much of a commitment. Placed in cover and given the take cover strategem they even have a respectable 3+ save. What do you guys think?
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/11/26 04:47:34
Question for the group, since I have a bit of a AM army: would a 5++ make guardsmen hordes viable (like 200 bodies)? With an allied Custodes detachment and 1 CP a turn, you can project from a Vexilla an 18” bubble for Imperium infantry of 5++ against ranged and re-roll morale for units wholly within. Idea would be embedding heavy/special weapons in the squads and using hidden artillery as basically the only the only tanks. Obviously a FNP for the guardsmen too would be ideal but AFAIK there’s no way to do that.
Hope is the first step on the road to disappointment.
slip wrote: I was thinking of trying a heavy weapon team. All heavy bolters, maybe one lascannon. That have that new strategem that looks pretty powerful. (Concentrated fire: +1 to hit and wound.) Mini sentinel bomb maybe? One for 51 points wouldn't be too much of a commitment. Placed in cover and given the take cover strategem they even have a respectable 3+ save. What do you guys think?
I really like the HWS with a platoon leader parked next to them to issue the order Take Aim! then give them the stratagem to make them extra lethal, in games I have done this it has paid dividends. Though, the only downside is that I use it with mortars and nothing else usually since everybody who knows anything about IG will target a HWS of lascannons/rockets/HBs first. But, on the other hand, if you have a HWS with no mortars, you could keep them in cover and then bring them out, and with the stratagem, cancel out the -1 to hit, still get the +1 to wound, and with the platoon leader next to them, re-roll 1s then you are only missing on 2s and 3s. I like mortars though myself, because you can re-roll 1s (if not Cadian or all hits if Cadian) then you get the +1 to hit/wound, to hit on 3s and then wound on 3/4 depending on what you're shooting at.
grouchoben wrote: If vets went troops I'd run 100% vets: with their strat and BS they jump 100% in damage vs marines. Just sayin.
And what would be wrong with that? You pay more for the models and more their weapons while they die just as fast, and it's not like you can do the strat with every single Veteran squad every single turn. Seems reasonable to me. I mean you could run 100% Scions too if you want.
A point upgrade to a model to give it +1bs and access to new strats is very very cheap. Just saying that balance might be upset pretty seriously. Why take IS squads anymore?
By the same logic, why take squads when you could take Scions? Or why take one of the weaker SM Troops option when you could take the stronger ones in the current codex?
In any case, there's an easy way to counter that, make Veterans (and Conscripts for that matter) 0-1 for every infantry squad you've taken in the same bataillon or brigade detachment. If you want to field a pure veteran force, take them in a vanguard.
@ Greyknight12: as with other ways to make guardsmen sturdier: take a hard look if the added survivability really outshines buying more guardsmen for the price invested in the Custodes. Note that against AP 0 (lasguns, Punisher cannons, lots of other light anti horde stuff) the 5++ adds nothing and the added survivability against AP-1 is not really big. Instead of 5/6th of AP-1 wounds going through, 4/6 go through the 5++, so you loose 20% less guardsmen against AP-1.
I think that is seldom worth it unless you wanted to bring Custodes anyway
~7510 build and painted
1312 build and painted
1200
Anyone ever thought to try a 2k list with 27 bullgryns in it?
"Glory in our suffering, because we know that suffering produces perseverance; perseverance, character; and character, hope. And hope does not disappoint"
-Paul of Tarsus
If my post seems goofy, assume I am posting from my phone and the autocorrect elf in my phone is drunk again
slip wrote: I was thinking of trying a heavy weapon team. All heavy bolters, maybe one lascannon. That have that new strategem that looks pretty powerful. (Concentrated fire: +1 to hit and wound.) Mini sentinel bomb maybe? One for 51 points wouldn't be too much of a commitment. Placed in cover and given the take cover strategem they even have a respectable 3+ save. What do you guys think?
I really like the HWS with a platoon leader parked next to them to issue the order Take Aim! then give them the stratagem to make them extra lethal, in games I have done this it has paid dividends. Though, the only downside is that I use it with mortars and nothing else usually since everybody who knows anything about IG will target a HWS of lascannons/rockets/HBs first. But, on the other hand, if you have a HWS with no mortars, you could keep them in cover and then bring them out, and with the stratagem, cancel out the -1 to hit, still get the +1 to wound, and with the platoon leader next to them, re-roll 1s then you are only missing on 2s and 3s. I like mortars though myself, because you can re-roll 1s (if not Cadian or all hits if Cadian) then you get the +1 to hit/wound, to hit on 3s and then wound on 3/4 depending on what you're shooting at.
Luckily I am cadian.
If you don't mind ditching the +1 to hit you could do all lascannons and keep it in reserve for more of a true bomb. The accuracy is still not great but keeping them in reserve might keep them out of the fracas long enough a diminished army can't target them as easily them they do emerge.
They could also benefit from overlapping fields of fire but I'd say that's if you were gonna use it anyway, since the cp cost is outrageous at this point. But since I'm definitely going to use it anyway, why not have them around to take advantage? Emerge, strategem, 3+ to hit, reroll 1s, 2+ to wound p much anything, potential 3d6 wounds.
Smotejob wrote: Anyone ever thought to try a 2k list with 27 bullgryns in it?
definitly thought about it, but more for fun. Would also be hilarious to fill up the reat of the army with Ogryns (I know they have week rules but the look of 50+ Ogryns/Bullgryns on the board would be awesome).
The main problem would be that 27 Bullgryns are more than half your army without shooting. And while sturdy and good in CC, they lack tools to get them faster into CC (no charge boni that I'm aware off, no charge after advance, no increased pile in move). They also don't have ObSec, while each one costs the same than ~ 8 Guardsmen that do have it. Also I said "good" in CC, but they are not overwelmingly good. SM Aggressors for example hit more or less equally good (-1 BS, but +1 S, +2 AP), for the same cost and almost the same sturdiness while still being able to shoot and better integrated in their faction.
Final note: depending how heavy your vicinity is in Gravis Marines it might be that a lot of People currently prepare to face T5, W3, 3+ models and thus stack up on weapons to deal with these profiles (and therefore also Bullgryns).
~7510 build and painted
1312 build and painted
1200
Relic of Lost Cadia, overlapping fields of fire, direct assault, strike first, strike hard
- Flat 6 damage Hunter Killer Missiles on full payload manticores.
- Trojan can reload the hunter killer missile every turn.
- Relic of lost Cadia helps those flat 6 missiles and overcharges plasmacannons hit home
- Multiple ways of getting +1 to hit through strats.
- Sentinels are tough with half damage. Manticores can deployed out of line of sight.
Massed infantry. Massed CP. Massed Orders.
Brigade
Creed for additional orders and +2CP.
3x Company Commander.
Kurovs Aquila
- This unlocks 12 troop choices with no CP wastage.
- Allows 9/10 orders per turn.
- Bonus 2 CP from Creed +Kurovs Aquila
Psyker Boosted Conscripts for Objectives/screening.
Lord Inquisitor Coteaz
2x Astropath
2x30 Conscripts.
- The goal is to advance the conscripts onto an objective/road block and then warding incantation, psychic barrier, take cover stratagem, nightshroud & psychic fortitude to make an unbreakable 3++ blob of conscripts.
- 4 deny the witch attempts.
- Coteaz is a reasonable fighter, smite spammer and grants all nearby units LD10.
Relic of Lost Cadia, overlapping fields of fire, direct assault, strike first, strike hard
- Flat 6 damage Hunter Killer Missiles on full payload manticores.
- Trojan can reload the hunter killer missile every turn.
- Relic of lost Cadia helps those flat 6 missiles and overcharges plasmacannons hit home
- Multiple ways of getting +1 to hit through strats.
- Sentinels are tough with half damage. Manticores can deployed out of line of sight.
Massed infantry. Massed CP. Massed Orders.
Brigade
Creed for additional orders and +2CP.
3x Company Commander.
Kurovs Aquila
- This unlocks 12 troop choices with no CP wastage.
- Allows 9/10 orders per turn.
- Bonus 2 CP from Creed +Kurovs Aquila
Psyker Boosted Conscripts for Objectives/screening.
Lord Inquisitor Coteaz
2x Astropath
2x30 Conscripts.
- The goal is to advance the conscripts onto an objective/road block and then warding incantation, psychic barrier, take cover stratagem, nightshroud & psychic fortitude to make an unbreakable 3++ blob of conscripts.
- 4 deny the witch attempts.
- Coteaz is a reasonable fighter, smite spammer and grants all nearby units LD10.
1x Manticore
>Full Payload, Heavy Bolter, Hunter Killer
1x Manticore
>Full Payload (-1CP), Heavy Bolter, Hunter Killer
3x Heavy Weapon Squad
>3x Mortars
Transports 90
Trojan Support Vehicle
> Hunter Killer, Heavy Bolter
Total 1998
Thought about catachan? Mass str4 attacks on all those troops and with straken around makes them just as mean as orks, but cheaper. Also gives your vehicles a reroll for random number of attacks. Cadians largely want to stand still and gunline but catachans can play a bit more aggressive.
Also, I agree with the rest of your reasoning as my guard lists are taking similar shape... all the way down to coteaz!
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/11/29 05:15:41
"Glory in our suffering, because we know that suffering produces perseverance; perseverance, character; and character, hope. And hope does not disappoint"
-Paul of Tarsus
If my post seems goofy, assume I am posting from my phone and the autocorrect elf in my phone is drunk again
Thought about catachan? Mass str4 attacks on all those troops and with straken around makes them just as mean as orks, but cheaper. Also gives your vehicles a reroll for random number of attacks. Cadians largely want to stand still and gunline but catachans can play a bit more aggressive.
Also, I agree with the rest of your reasoning as my guard lists are taking similar shape... all the way down to coteaz!
Coteaz might be the best unit Guard can field! I think you can build the core of these infantry heavy backed by artillery lists from either:
Cadia Brigade
- Gets the most orders & CP with Creed.
- "Overlapping Fields of Fire" & "Relic of lost Cadia" is two of of the best strats & relics in Guard dex
- Basic Guardsmen with Lascannons can get 3+ to hit with re-rolls is something.
- Naturally re-rolling 1s with stationary indirect.
Catachan Brigade
- Straken!
- Strength 4 infantry, Straken, Coteaz, a priest, you can actually shift units in the assault phase.
- Re-rolls on D6 weaponry for artillery.
Wilderness Survivors / Disciplined Shooters + 2nd detachment of Expert Gunners /Jury Rigging for artillery.
- Most durable infantry from ranged fire (wildness does prevent use of advancing & move, move, move)
- 18" rapid fire plasma vets/command squads arriving from reinforcements is no joke.
- Least CP if taking extra detachments for artillery.
I'm not sure which of the above 3 setups will yield the best results. I'm currently going down the route of hunter killer missile shenagians with the trojan which I think Cadia synergises with.
It got updated in the new Imperial armour Compendium so its legal. It's 85 points (90 with Hunter Killer). Movement 12, Toughness 7, 10 wounds, 3+, transport of 6.
It can repair one model within 3" for 1 wound and re-arm one deleted use of a one shot attack. (yes, you re-arm a deathstrike missile) The full payload manticores firing flat 6 damage Hunter Killer Missiles is probably the best use of it.
I would still think about if the Trojan is really worth it. For that price you almost get two Sentinels with Lascannons, which are (in my opinion) better than one full payload hunter killer missile. Especially when considering that the reload happens after the shooting phase (?) so the reloaded Manticore might not even get to fire it, or not at full BS.
~7510 build and painted
1312 build and painted
1200
Pyroalchi wrote: I would still think about if the Trojan is really worth it. For that price you almost get two Sentinels with Lascannons, which are (in my opinion) better than one full payload hunter killer missile. Especially when considering that the reload happens after the shooting phase (?) so the reloaded Manticore might not even get to fire it, or not at full BS.
I'm still using it as transport for 6 man special weapon teams or command squads.
I think trojan compares favourable to the chimera and Taurox in those cirumstances.
Pyroalchi wrote: I would still think about if the Trojan is really worth it. For that price you almost get two Sentinels with Lascannons, which are (in my opinion) better than one full payload hunter killer missile. Especially when considering that the reload happens after the shooting phase (?) so the reloaded Manticore might not even get to fire it, or not at full BS.
I'm still using it as transport for 6 man special weapon teams or command squads.
I think trojan compares favourable to the chimera and Taurox in those cirumstances.
It did get pretty cheap.
"Glory in our suffering, because we know that suffering produces perseverance; perseverance, character; and character, hope. And hope does not disappoint"
-Paul of Tarsus
If my post seems goofy, assume I am posting from my phone and the autocorrect elf in my phone is drunk again
I am more interested in the use of that repair point.
Does it stack with other repairs?
cause every little bit helps in the gambit "undying gaurd armor". (I am gonna post a list on this in a moment.)
You could do even less dying armor if oyu were custom / juryrig/gunnery experts. But you couldn't move the tanks after removing a blocker unit, which I think is a big deal, and the difference of 1 point spread out is far less impactful than massively repairing an almost dead tank.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/11/29 17:41:25
I am agreeing on the basic structure of inquisitor, bunch of officers/buff characters, a ton of guardsmen, special weapon/ccs in reserves, and manticores for fire support. I've been doing Catachans a lot with powerswords and I prefer them over Cadian. Really orders don't seem to be as important as the ability to do damage in melee in an emergency. Obviously orders help but they're not the first thing I focus on. Plus Catachans get great order efficiency since you can bring a fourth commander with straken and Harker has his reroll 1's aura.
My main issue I've run into is whether I run Bullgryn or not, and the more I look at basic Bullgryn squads the less I've enjoyed them. Essentially with the focus on guardsmen, they're now your "tanks" for lack of a better term, and people are kitting out to kill gravis anyways. The Bullgryn, while a good unit, are mainly just suffering from lack of target saturation. Almost makes me want to try them in a tank list instead. That and a Bullgryn is almost as much as a whole squad is a tough pill to swallow. I'm going to try running some Bullgryn bodyguards though, see how that does. They get a good number of attacks and combined with a character blob of an officer with a fist, a preacher, and a pysker or inquisitor, you can deal with a lot of smaller threats pretty reliably.
The sad thing is it looks like we're going to be locked into a pretty narrow build to be competitive. While I enjoy that build for now, I can tell it's going to get boring eventually. We really need platoons back, the new restriction with detachments makes fielding enough infantry really difficult without multiple battalion or a brigade
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/11/29 18:09:37
'I've played Guard for years, and the best piece of advice is to always utilize the Guard's best special rule: "we roll more dice than you" ' - stormleader
"Sector Imperialis: 25mm and 40mm Round Bases (40+20) 26€ (Including 32 skulls for basing) " GW design philosophy in a nutshell
Dukeofstuff wrote: Why coteaz over a simple 65 point malleus dual psyker / melta sniper? I am curious now!
I know infantry is probably where we end up, but there has to be some way to run a tank group, too. I hope.
Mainly because Coteaz casts 3 psyker powers & 2 denys in a turn with psyker mastery and has leadership 10 aura. As an added bonus he's also an actual threat in melee with a flat 3 damage Nemesis hammer. The standard inquisitor works fine though.
Dukeofstuff wrote: Why coteaz over a simple 65 point malleus dual psyker / melta sniper? I am curious now!
I know infantry is probably where we end up, but there has to be some way to run a tank group, too. I hope.
I like the malleus Inquisitor for the denial because I see a lot of pyskers but coteaz is more proactive. If your opponent doesn't bring pysker, he'll do more throughout the game. Also if you have an inquisitor youre probably bringing an astropath or two to shore up your denial as well so it's not a big loss.
'I've played Guard for years, and the best piece of advice is to always utilize the Guard's best special rule: "we roll more dice than you" ' - stormleader
"Sector Imperialis: 25mm and 40mm Round Bases (40+20) 26€ (Including 32 skulls for basing) " GW design philosophy in a nutshell
You guys are insane. 9th edition is mental. The game has gotten so much bigger and more complex since I last played (which admittedly was over 20 years ago). Unfortunately I haven't had a chance to actually play a game yet, but I have been doing a lot of painting, watching vids and reading - including 6 pages of this thread, so far; I am going to get a post in now as it's getting late. This is by way of giving the following thoughts some context.
1. If we are gonna have to get up close and nasty, how do vets with shotguns and 3 flamers get on? 75 points only. Melee buffs from various sources optional. Would be super cool and bad-ass to have a platoon of these chaps also, and unexpected by oppo.
2. I read a lot about Bullgryns being awesome (the models certainly are) and I don't disagree with that, but the Sentinel Powerlifter is the same points. You get better toughness and more wounds but no shield. Worse WS but better Strength.You can't get Infantry buffs but the Crush Em! strategem is great for these guys. Loads more speed which is the best thing.
3. I live in futile hope that they will bring back beastmen and penal legions and human bombs. Or at the very least the Assault Squad.
1. If we are gonna have to get up close and nasty, how do vets with shotguns and 3 flamers get on? 75 points only. Melee buffs from various sources optional. Would be super cool and bad-ass to have a platoon of these chaps also, and unexpected by oppo.
The biggest issue I see with this is that flamers essentially waste the veterans' better ballistic skill. You'd likely be better off taking special weapons teams if you're wanting to try spam flamer stuff.
PaddyMick wrote: You guys are insane. 9th edition is mental. The game has gotten so much bigger and more complex since I last played (which admittedly was over 20 years ago). Unfortunately I haven't had a chance to actually play a game yet, but I have been doing a lot of painting, watching vids and reading - including 6 pages of this thread, so far; I am going to get a post in now as it's getting late. This is by way of giving the following thoughts some context.
1. If we are gonna have to get up close and nasty, how do vets with shotguns and 3 flamers get on? 75 points only. Melee buffs from various sources optional. Would be super cool and bad-ass to have a platoon of these chaps also, and unexpected by oppo.
...
Welcome back to the game. As a relative noob I can sympathize with the painting reading etc.
So right now I tend to run Catachan, and I give flamers to the regular infantry. The goal is to get them in as bodies on objectives, maybe put up a little fight or slow other units down, and be able to burn guys out of cover for my other guns. Vets I am running with 3 plasma and an autocannon because it's marines marines marines here, and it seems to do a good job. Never really played with shotguns as I tend to use my vets as either stand-off or "we who are about to die salute you" attacks on something big.
I think another problem with shotgun vets is, that Lasguns are mostly better:
>12': lasguns 1 shot, Shotgun 0
6-12': both 2 shots at same strength
<6'': both 2 shots, but shotgun +1 strength.
The shotguns can advance and shoot, the lasguns too, if they are tallarn vor example
But the Lasguns can double their output by FRFSRF.
@ Sentinel Powerlifters: I really like them too as models, but Bullgryns can ride in transports and profit from being infantry
~7510 build and painted
1312 build and painted
1200
~7510 build and painted
1312 build and painted
1200 
