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How many of the recon marines is your opponent taking?

10 shots a squad, needing 6s followed by a 3 on a D3 to glance a landraider, like 5 wounds each right? They're more of a threat to characters than tanks honestly.

If all else fails, I guess take a librarian, use the power that gives everyone in range an invul. Should help your tanks last longer. Telekinesis I think, it's a 4++ so great for camping.

cody.d. wrote:
How many of the recon marines is your opponent taking?

10 shots a squad, needing 6s followed by a 3 on a D3 to glance a landraider, like 5 wounds each right? They're more of a threat to characters than tanks honestly.

If all else fails, I guess take a librarian, use the power that gives everyone in range an invul. Should help your tanks last longer. Telekinesis I think, it's a 4++ so great for camping.

Ten with a Vigilator. That’s proven enough to take half the hull points off a Kratos. Kill a Sicaran Punisher. Destroy a Land Raider in one turn. Tanks worth near enough as much as the squad. Also, Night Lords.

They rend on a 5 and a 6. Believe me I’ve looked, the math says he should only be able to chip a hull point or two a turn and it shouldn’t be an issue at all.

10 shots. 6 hits. 2 rend. So maybe 1 to 2 hull points. Vigilator probably makes it a firm two. With your Night Lords plus 1 armour pen.

 Totalwar1402 wrote:

cody.d. wrote:
How many of the recon marines is your opponent taking?

10 shots a squad, needing 6s followed by a 3 on a D3 to glance a landraider, like 5 wounds each right? They're more of a threat to characters than tanks honestly.

If all else fails, I guess take a librarian, use the power that gives everyone in range an invul. Should help your tanks last longer. Telekinesis I think, it's a 4++ so great for camping.

Ten with a Vigilator. That’s proven enough to take half the hull points off a Kratos. Kill a Sicaran Punisher. Destroy a Land Raider in one turn. Tanks worth near enough as much as the squad. Also, Night Lords.

They rend on a 5 and a 6.

They still need to roll 6 to wound to get to av 14 though, 5+6+3 is only just tickling 14 with a perfect roll. I would check if your opponents dice are rigged then. They should be doing 1 or 2 wounds to your raiders, tops. If you take flare shields then your raiders can't be hurt at all by them.

Failing that, yeah see if any librarian's powers are helpful to you.

Night Lords get a bonus AP for outnumbering a vehicle which they get with a Vigilator attached. Which has some wacky interactions with the rend rule.

So it’s 5 plus 5 plus 1 plus 3 which gets you to that 14 on a 5 up rend

Plus your 5 plus 6 plus 1 plus 2 can also get you that 14. So you need less on the rend roll.

Essentially if you rend, you have a two thirds chance of glancing the vehicle.

Again still should just be 1.4ish hull points on the ten guys.

And once you kill 1 mook they no longer outnumber your tank. But yeah, if you find your raiders dying, maybe give a Flare shield a roll. Also makes them immune to str8 which is handy and even lascannons can only glance you. Throw in Telekinesis dome for an invul ontop, and then use the evade reaction on one of them to really piss off your opponent. (Pretty sure that all functions properly.)

 Totalwar1402 wrote:
Was after some advice.

1) How do you counter a Mass jump/drop assault?

2) How do you deal with recon marines?

Currently I am in a bit of a pickle because, I know the answer is thirty lascannons with augury scanners or ten dreadnoughts. But I’ve more or less tailored all my Legions to be different. My Ultra are like that (not ten dreads admittedly). Sons of Horus is a mixture of tanks and terminator. EC is all about rapid assault from Storm Eagles. Imperial Fist are a short range shooting army with a CC punch. Death Guard it’s similar but more Chem flamers. Basically they don’t all have heavy weapon squads that you wouldn’t want to give a free turn of shooting to.

Basically the way it’s been going is, drop assault comes, clears the chaff and then they can just mob my elite close combat units. Just an overwhelming Alpha strike that can kill 2k in a turn. Like we’re talking, 30 assault marines, ten raptors, ten man command squad with praetor, leviathan and ten terminators from two Dreadclaws. There just isn’t enough firepower to dent the assault. Even if my whole back line fired all their bolters and rotor guns we’re only talking a handful of marines when I need to delete the enemy army or cause so much damage that my Elite units don’t get mobbed.

The recon marines just have the ability to delete my tanks and I feel the only way to move them is to send a deathstar at them. I haven’t even had to deal with a lascannon squads AT firepower because these snipers seem just as dangerous. Like I am not kidding, land raiders gone from a single squad; hull points.

Master of signal screws mass deepstrike straight up. After that it's mass augury scanners in good quality shooting unit. If you're getting pinned a lot maybe a herald or two for the ld buffs. But the master of signal basically does it all on his own without having to say "change your armies to be marginally well rounded and capable" to a player. The bolters and rotor guns kind of say it all.

One big squad of recons? Literally anything with enough shots and range. Jetbikes with heavy bolters or volkite, heavy support squads, fire round rapiers, javelins. They can only react once and are very vulnerable to be return fired. Idk, like a vigilator and 10 recons average about 1.3 hull points to av 13 per volley; they're not really a reliable threat to them, are way better as MSU, and putting vigilators with them are very inefficient. You just seem to get really unlucky.

Oh, a telepathy librarian would also work wonderfully. Great for turning off reactions and or pinning something with ease. Boom, take a ld test with -6 and yer pinned.

Positioning, no seriously. But that is a skill that we all need to train.


Have we had any news on the free pdfs as of yet for Militia and Ruinstorm?

So mr circle has posted part 1 and 2 of looking at where 30k is at 6 months in. Good video.

Some pet peeves after doing some recent games with my AL

Headhunter < Hunter squad < Scouts with Nemisis < Recon marines.

And that all comes down to how bad the banestrike bolter is.
Frankly it's absurd that the legion that invented the whole hunter squad (and has a special version of said squad) has probably the worst iteration of said squad simply because the banestrike bolter is pretty garbage.

The only thing headhunters have going for them ATM is that you can use the MM to snipe and or target enemy vehicles. But in this era of dreadnoughts > every other vehicle in existence, why bother with 1 singular MM.

Meanwhile the regular hunters get the special ammo bolter, with more range and better breaching, same precisce shots and killmission instead of beeing more effective against IC charachter blocks.

Both pale however compared to scouts with nemesis boltguns and recon marines, because why count as 2" further away when you can scale that up by +6"

Meanwhile the Headhunter leviathal AL one, moves them to the troop slot same as the hunter one does, has more restrictions? despite them being the "hunter but CQC" schtick?

Meanwhile why field them when i can pick another rite and profit from recon marines being support units but also having frontline? (and also cheaper with nemisis boltguns)

the whole situation for "light" legion infantry is honestly pretty absurd. Probably the same absurd as tactical support squads worse volkite weapon being double the price as the bigger volkite on the heavy support squad...

I think you're perhaps not using headhunters in quite the way they're designed to be used. Headhunters and hunters (i assume hunters are the translated names for seekers and vice versa) fulfill kind of different roles in the game, especially with alpha legion.

Since headhunters are relentless they can fire their boltguns (with a lot more shots than seekers with scorpius) and still charge. Like you mentioned you also have the multi melta which can precision fire. They also have venom spheres and reroll 1s against independent characters and units that contain them. Again, all good stuff. Seekers are more for your generic "I'm going to kill one important model" both units are good but fulfill different roles. Those roles can overlap but they aren't supposed to be a straight up better version of seekers. If seekers fit your style more, then use seekers instead.

As for recons and scouts, again they fulfill a different role. Take the units that you find do what you need them to do. Perhaps the way you want to play them is leaning more towards taking recons or scouts with your alpha legion. Like you say being 8" Further away is always a nice bonus to avoid return fire and offsets some of the fragility encountered by scouts and recons.

The volkite situation is daft. I really don't get that. All I can assume is that they assumed the heavy support slot was more valuable or that tactical support were supposed to have line? As it stands I don't really think I'll see a volkite caliver support squad

 Crablezworth wrote:
So mr circle has posted part 1 and 2 of looking at where 30k is at 6 months in. Good video.

I haven´t played a game of HH 2.0 either. Looking forward to painting the AoD box between the years in a marathon session. And I will incorporate AA in my games so not sure if reactions would then be necessary at all. Concerning Interceptions there weren´t any issues from battle reports (ca. 10-20) I watched on youtube.

Bobug wrote:
I think you're perhaps not using headhunters in quite the way they're designed to be used. Headhunters and hunters (i assume hunters are the translated names for seekers and vice versa) fulfill kind of different roles in the game, especially with alpha legion.

Since headhunters are relentless they can fire their boltguns (with a lot more shots than seekers with scorpius) and still charge. Like you mentioned you also have the multi melta which can precision fire. They also have venom spheres and reroll 1s against independent characters and units that contain them. Again, all good stuff. Seekers are more for your generic "I'm going to kill one important model" both units are good but fulfill different roles. Those roles can overlap but they aren't supposed to be a straight up better version of seekers. If seekers fit your style more, then use seekers instead.

Seekers yeah, ..
Well, i mean it could be the case that i am just that daft ( on occaision the unreasonable urge to charge something with bajonetts overwhelms me in 30k just as it did in 40k... blame khornate R&H mindset for that) however :

1. Kill mission, often, is more usefull since it can target a key unit, whilest with headhunters you basically either target a command squad or a deathstar and when you don't see that you basically just paid for nothing.
2. Charging with headhunters is "marginally" more effective than it is with seekers because they come baseline with a powerdagger, however that assumes further that you are within shooting distance for your Headhunters (18") and that you get off the charge... also 3 attacks S3 ap-3 against an elite unit which you want to target with a charachter in it... (most of which are ws 5 so you hit only on 5+ realistically) and then wound only on a 5+ is honestly a bit hillarious. Also if you target a recon squad, which are rather well liked due to nemisisboltrifles being nuts, that means that you require to get within 3" to get more shots than normal kraken boltguns which just perform up to 18 " in that scenario and even melee is only marginally better because you could just slap on melta bombs and chainbajonetts on seekers.
3. Seekers get for 5 pts/ model for the whole squad melta bombs. Headhunters get for 15 one on the sarge equiv.
4. the kraken has an assault profile which is just far better than the banestrike simply because of range. NVM that it also 2 other profiles which especially against mechanicus and auxilia perform quite a bit better.
5. Why bother at all with a kraken or banestrike for that matter, when you can just pick a Nemisis boltgun which breaches twice as many times and allows your recons and scouts to target specific enemy models which is the whole stick of seekers and headhunters, but without getting into the danger zone that is "return fire" be it reaction or otherwise?

As for recons and scouts, again they fulfill a different role. Take the units that you find do what you need them to do. Perhaps the way you want to play them is leaning more towards taking recons or scouts with your alpha legion. Like you say being 8" Further away is always a nice bonus to avoid return fire and offsets some of the fragility encountered by scouts and recons.

so far, my scouts survive at about tripple the rate compared to my headhunters whilest they are often a turn or two completely out of range, simply because range doesn't matter to them, even worse when i compare my recon marines to them, doubly so considering charachter assasination i can do with all these squads aswell as targetting specific equipment.

The volkite situation is daft. I really don't get that. All I can assume is that they assumed the heavy support slot was more valuable or that tactical support were supposed to have line? As it stands I don't really think I'll see a volkite caliver support squad

That one is so bizare to me that i just chose to run my calviers as volkite rifles, those are actually halfway decent, but only because i don't throw 10 pts down the drain when i pick them, instead "only" 2ppm (realistically 1 because bajonet) because support squads pay more for their non fronline existence than normal tacs.

Not Online!!! wrote:
:1. Kill mission, often, is more usefull since it can target a key unit, whilest with headhunters you basically either target a command squad or a deathstar and when you don't see that you basically just paid for nothing.
2. Charging with headhunters is "marginally" more effective than it is with seekers because they come baseline with a powerdagger, however that assumes further that you are within shooting distance for your Headhunters (18") and that you get off the charge... also 3 attacks S3 ap-3 against an elite unit which you want to target with a charachter in it... (most of which are ws 5 so you hit only on 5+ realistically) and then wound only on a 5+ is honestly a bit hillarious. Also if you target a recon squad, which are rather well liked due to nemisisboltrifles being nuts, that means that you require to get within 3" to get more shots than normal kraken boltguns which just perform up to 18 " in that scenario and even melee is only marginally better because you could just slap on melta bombs and chainbajonetts on seekers.
3. Seekers get for 5 pts/ model for the whole squad melta bombs. Headhunters get for 15 one on the sarge equiv.
4. the kraken has an assault profile which is just far better than the banestrike simply because of range. NVM that it also 2 other profiles which especially against mechanicus and auxilia perform quite a bit better.
5. Why bother at all with a kraken or banestrike for that matter, when you can just pick a Nemisis boltgun which breaches twice as many times and allows your recons and scouts to target specific enemy models which is the whole stick of seekers and headhunters, but without getting into the danger zone that is "return fire" be it reaction or otherwise?

1 - Marked for Death is fine but you only get the bonus against that specific target. Headhunters getting Preferred Enemy against all Independent Characters means you aren't restricted to a single target.
2 - Having Infiltrate, Scout and Relentless put the Headhunters in a good position in the early game to be able to gun down some enemies and then charge later. Even if you are only targeting heavier elite units, S5 twin-linked guns with Breaching 6+ and Precision 4+ is still very good. You're hitting on 2s re-rolling, wounding on 3s in most (if not all) cases, choosing your targets on a 4+, and ignoring armour on a 6+.
3 - Not sure what the point here is.
4 - Range is much less of a concern when the unit can Infiltrate, get a Scout move and then move and fire with no issues.
5 - Because the Headhunters are cheaper than Recon Marines with Nemesis Bolters and better than Scouts as they have good shooting and acceptable combat. They'll get mulched by a dedicated combat unit but having Power Weapons gives them a considerable edge in combat, even against things like Terminators. Headhunters are not a rear-line unit like Scouts and Recon Marines.

S3 <--- This is the issue. When you stab something and by extention just loose out against the most common W value and AP-3 with breaching on 5s is not something that can give you an edge, especially not against the rather common terminators.

Compared to not having an extra attack and ap3 with a chance for ap2?

 Gert wrote:
Compared to not having an extra attack and ap3 with a chance for ap2?

165 pts headhunters into 175 basic claw tartaros terminators.

Yes, 3 attacks even against normal tartaros terminators pretty much bounce off, i tried. because in essence that means about 7 dudes (with perfect positioning) with 3 and +1 attack ergo 22 hits on normal tartaros terminators 50 % --> 11 hits wounding on 5s so about 4 wounds that are breaching but there will be a 5++ so you will kill about 1 terminator

meanwhile the humble claw terminators (because claws will be the most common terminators you see due to box contents, unless you face elite terminators which will just turn that into a far worse situation for the headhunters) will be 4 left ergo 8-9 attacks hitting 50% so 4,5 wounding on 4 but reroll so atleast 3 wounds.... and nothing to save their asses.

Trust me, headhunters don't want to go into melee, most certainly not with terminators. The occaisional support squad or scouts , yeah sure, but even the most basic terminator that isn't even kitted out for melee propperly will shake them off and later outnumber them due to mass...

mind, my personal experience was 5 headhunters into 5 tartaros in a small game so predictably the result was even worse....

To be fair aren't those actually pretty decent numbers considering you're putting a fast, flexible ranged assassin unit with melee options against a dedicated tough melee unit?

I reckon it'll be interesting to see things are in a year's time once everyone has had a bit more time to play with the more specialist units like headhunters.

I suppose as alpha legion you have so many specialist units to choose from it might take a while 😂

Bobug wrote:
To be fair aren't those actually pretty decent numbers considering you're putting a fast, flexible ranged assassin unit with melee options against a dedicated tough melee unit?

I reckon it'll be interesting to see things are in a year's time once everyone has had a bit more time to play with the more specialist units like headhunters.

I suppose as alpha legion you have so many specialist units to choose from it might take a while 😂

what melee options? they each got a shiv with a battery and told to stab the literal walking tank

Hey let's not slag off those sweet, sweet battery shivs 😂

Also I wonder if perceptions are different if you're mainly playing single one-off games or events where you're playing 4-6 games with the same list over a weekend against different opponents. I have found that units that might do bugger all one game are absolutely vital in another game due to the mission or the opponent

Bobug wrote:
Hey let's not slag off those sweet, sweet battery shivs 😂

Also I wonder if perceptions are different if you're mainly playing single one-off games or events where you're playing 4-6 games with the same list over a weekend against different opponents. I have found that units that might do bugger all one game are absolutely vital in another game due to the mission or the opponent

switch it up, mostly 1-2 games if i do play.

It's not that headhunters are bad, it's just more aggrivating that even in the niche cases were you expect them to be better than "normal" assasin units they seem to lack that Mmph, unless you spam combi weapons which they just get cheaper... for reasons that are unknown to me.

 Crablezworth wrote:
So mr circle has posted part 1 and 2 of looking at where 30k is at 6 months in. Good video.

Mr Circle was one of the first Youtubers I came across when trying to get a handle on WH30k earlier this year. His passion for the game is very evident, and he is clearly very knowledgeable (he seems to be pretty good on the modelling side too). But he often comes across as sneering and resentful. It's as if any deviation from what he personally thinks is the way it should be done must be the result of either incompetence or some kind of nefarious plot on the part of GW. All of that baggage gets in the way of enjoying the useful information that he provides. So I didn't manage to get through these latest updates he's done - life is too short to absorb so much of someone else's angst.

My view of HH 2.0 so far is that it's been quite well supported. They cranked out a lot of quite substantial plastic kits in a very short period - I can't think of another time when they produced so many 'new' vehicles so quickly.
The flow has slowed down to more of a trickle recently, but it's actually a relief not to be deluged with new releases and rules changes (I still have plenty of stuff to build). I hope that they continue to fill out the Marine range with plastics - Assault Marines, jetbikes, speeders and a few more tank variants - then move onto another faction. As for the rules, there will need to be a thorough FAQ soon and some revisions. Some of the legion special rules need fine-tuning, and they'll need to make bikes better if they want to sell plenty of plastic kits).

TBF, though snord, Predator, Rhino and scorpious all share the same baseline and we know that GW uses computers nowadays for design, making those trivial adaptations.

The proteus and spartan also seem to share quite a bit in components.

the cataphractii were an old plastic kit.

The tartarosi are new afaik

Remaining MK 6 Marines and some special and heavy weapons aswell as the new Contemptor and plastic leviathan.

But a lot of those things are boxes split artificially in 2 f.e. the contemptor and leviathan both easily could have had all options in them.

Same for the predator.

Personally i think it would be best if GW would release the "Seeker" equivalent in plastic aswell as the combi weapons sprue ontop of a jumppack squad. And especially we need the Terminator weapons...

That'd be 2 marine full kits (seekers and jumptroops) 2-3 add in kits (depends if you split ranged terminator from melee terminator and or split melee options for terminators.)

That way i rekon most holes would be filled and a lot of legion units could be converted.

My question is, what will gw plasitfy in regards to solar auxilia and militia?
Militia may well could be a tie in with a 40k rerelease of R&H style faction? GW could point you torwards the cult leader box from the CSM boxset and or to the traitorguard KT for traitor aligned cults militia whilest recomending guard equivs for loyalist side?

Not Online!!! wrote:
165 pts headhunters into 175 basic claw tartaros terminators.

Yes, 3 attacks even against normal tartaros terminators pretty much bounce off, i tried. because in essence that means about 7 dudes (with perfect positioning) with 3 and +1 attack ergo 22 hits on normal tartaros terminators 50 % --> 11 hits wounding on 5s so about 4 wounds that are breaching but there will be a 5++ so you will kill about 1 terminator

meanwhile the humble claw terminators (because claws will be the most common terminators you see due to box contents, unless you face elite terminators which will just turn that into a far worse situation for the headhunters) will be 4 left ergo 8-9 attacks hitting 50% so 4,5 wounding on 4 but reroll so atleast 3 wounds.... and nothing to save their asses.

Trust me, headhunters don't want to go into melee, most certainly not with terminators. The occaisional support squad or scouts , yeah sure, but even the most basic terminator that isn't even kitted out for melee propperly will shake them off and later outnumber them due to mass...

mind, my personal experience was 5 headhunters into 5 tartaros in a small game so predictably the result was even worse....

I never said Headhunters should be wanting to get into melee as their first choice but having good weapons and then having acceptable combat means that they aren't a bad unit. Only using the combat stats for what is primarly a shooting unit is a bit silly. I clearly said the melee option was a bonus over other units like Seekers or Scouts rather than the primary use.

Basically, to sum up Circle's videos: "the game is in dire need of a very large errata/faq/balance patch".
As a Custodes player, I also find it funny that I rather not shoot, unless it's some pansy placeholder tacticals. Because why shoot in hopes to cause a few wounds and lose more in return. And then even more in opponent's next turn

 CragHack wrote:
Basically, to sum up Circle's videos: "the game is in dire need of a very large errata/faq/balance patch".
As a Custodes player, I also find it funny that I rather not shoot, unless it's some pansy placeholder tacticals. Because why shoot in hopes to cause a few wounds and lose more in return. And then even more in opponent's next turn

I don't even agree with him, no amount of errata or faq saves where the games is at, the problems are at the core sadly.

*Nerf Brutal 3
*Nerf Return fire to snapshots and make it so that it's provoked or must be done at the nearest unit.
*Nerf Lascannons (make them more expensive, can keep sunder, whatever)
*Work on internal balance so there's actually a point to consider taking Y vs N, not putting Y on shelf and forgetting that it exists as such.
For starters.

RELEASE A fething PDF WITH ALL THE USRS IN ALPHABETICAL ORDER IN ONE PLACE!!1!one

Not Online!!! wrote:


the cataphractii were an old plastic kit.

The tartarosi are new afaik

Tartaros were released a year or two Cataphractii. They're not new.

 CragHack wrote:
*Nerf Brutal 3
*Nerf Return fire to snapshots and make it so that it's provoked or must be done at the nearest unit.
*Nerf Lascannons (make them more expensive, can keep sunder, whatever)
*Work on internal balance so there's actually a point to consider taking Y vs N, not putting Y on shelf and forgetting that it exists as such.
For starters.

RELEASE A fething PDF WITH ALL THE USRS IN ALPHABETICAL ORDER IN ONE PLACE!!1!one

Why brutal?
Right now it's one of the things keeping custodes and dreads from completly stomping over the competition, which they already do.

Reactions need in general a look at aswell.


Agreed on the PDF though, that is severly needed at this stage.

Not Online!!! wrote:

 CragHack wrote:
*Nerf Brutal 3
*Nerf Return fire to snapshots and make it so that it's provoked or must be done at the nearest unit.
*Nerf Lascannons (make them more expensive, can keep sunder, whatever)
*Work on internal balance so there's actually a point to consider taking Y vs N, not putting Y on shelf and forgetting that it exists as such.
For starters.

RELEASE A fething PDF WITH ALL THE USRS IN ALPHABETICAL ORDER IN ONE PLACE!!1!one

Why brutal?
Right now it's one of the things keeping custodes and dreads from completly stomping over the competition, which they already do.

Reactions need in general a look at aswell.

Dreads are one of the few units that have access to Brutal 3, and is one of the reasons why they're stomping over the competition.