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 Blackie wrote:
And you know me by a few posts on the internet? That explains everything.

Okay then. Plenty of them are doctors, or own master degree.

 Blackie wrote:
I'm not josef mengele, I have no intention to see those labs.

Now you are not making any sense .

No african or middle eastern universities' degrees has value in europe, and unless you're talking about human guinea's pigs I won't see any people that come from the third world in a research lab. Which is one of my fields of works too.


And human experimentation is illegal and morally wrong, you can't really mean it but in the same time there aren't people that have studied in those countries that actually have qualified jobs in europe, those savages can't do other things in a research lab.

 Blackie wrote:
No african or middle eastern universities' degrees has value in europe

Damn I was right, you ARE completely uneducated.[edit]Or you are lying, or both.[/edit]

 Blackie wrote:
Which is one of my fields of works too.

Transparent lie is transparent.

 Blackie wrote:
there aren't people that have studied in those countries that actually have qualified jobs in europe

Ahah you wish. Not only in research labs, but also at the top of STEM companies too.


I have first-hand knowledge of all that, you know.

 Blackie wrote:
No african or middle eastern universities' degrees has value in europe, and unless you're talking about human guinea's pigs I won't see any people that come from the third world in a research lab. Which is one of my fields of works too.


And human experimentation is illegal and morally wrong, you can't really mean it but in the same time there aren't people that have studied in those countries that actually have qualified jobs in europe, those savages can't do other things in a research lab.

I'm not entirely sure where you are getting your information regarding the validity of degrees from other countries.

...those savages

..

What?....

I really do object to the concept that all/a majority of migrants are slack jawed yokels straight out the village look to Take Ur Jurb.

I mean, seriously. If you're worried that a migrant, who Blackie alleges are all inherently illiterate is going to steal your job....I'd suggest migration is the very least of your problems.

Here's the thing. Migration costs money. It is not cheap nor easy to upsticks and flit halfway across the world in search of a better life.

It's a lot of expensive, hardwork. First you need to find work (provided you're not a European looking to move to another European country), and somewhere to stay, and you need to make sure that work pays enough for you to live on.

The Gutter Press in the UK freaked out because Poles were coming over here, renovating our kitchens, sorting out our plumbing, all for a price native plumbers etc wouldn't meet. They criticised them for having high density house shares. They claimed they were here to stay.

They weren't. And they never were. Instead, they saw an opportunity I would kill for - the opportunity to work in a different country for comparatively ludicrous wages, endure a few years of slightly uncomfortable living, then return home with enough money to buy a house outright, and with enough of a nest egg that my financial worries are done with for the foreseeable. Seriously - who wouldn't want to do that given the chance?

Migration is the very history of mankind. It's in our DNA. It's a solid survival mechanism.

And let's not forget national borders are an entirely notional thing anyway.

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:
When people protest against these policies, they're labelled racist, and people like YOU try to silence them.

I think you'll find that statements like this is why they're labelled "racist":

 Blackie wrote:

And human experimentation is illegal and morally wrong, you can't really mean it but in the same time there aren't people that have studied in those countries that actually have qualified jobs in europe, those savages can't do other things in a research lab.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
I'm not trying to silence anyone, I'm trying to point out that allying yourself with xenophobic douchebags is a really poor idea. You're more than welcome to protest against government policies, but when the basis of the protest is "the immigrants are taking our jobs!" or variations thereof you're no longer arguing in good faith. It's entirely possible to protest against stupid governance WITHOUT having to join forces with the far right, but people would rather take the easy way out and blame it on the immigrants than to organize politically separately from the far right.

But on the other hand, when you have established parties that always get a lot of votes just because "I always voted X" it can be pretty hard to get a new party started and get enough votes to become something. Single-issue parties just don't manage to get that many votes - they can get enough to join the opposition but not the government. Usually.

We had that with our Perussuomalaiset party (Basic Finns would be the easiest translation though foreign news often call them True Finns) where good people worried about society at large allied with anti-immigration and in some cases pure racists in order to get enough votes to make a dent. They got large enough that the other election winners had to accept them into government, but the fractured nature of their supporters means they've lost much of their support over various issues. They had to back down on social issues due to the recession, and they haven't been able to push through everything on their anti-immigration agenda either. The party will likely disintegrate, which is good for getting rid of the racists but not that good when the ones worried about the weakest and poorest members of society are concerned. Whatever good they wanted to do for the downtrodden will be lost because they allied with racist scum. But if they hadn't they would never have reached the position they hold.

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 Blackie wrote:
No african or middle eastern universities' degrees has value in europe

Damn I was right, you ARE completely uneducated.[edit]Or you are lying, or both.[/edit]

 Blackie wrote:
Which is one of my fields of works too.

Transparent lie is transparent.

 Blackie wrote:
there aren't people that have studied in those countries that actually have qualified jobs in europe

Ahah you wish. Not only in research labs, but also at the top of STEM companies too.


I have first-hand knowledge of all that, you know.

Oooook, are you a vegan??

I'm a biomedical engineer, I've never seen an african-middle eastern man/woman in the medical field, people of foreign origins sure, but no one that actually studied in the third world. But maybe in france it's a different story. Anyway africans doctors or not, france is exactly the perfect example of how a european country should not be.

Ignore list, because this is becoming grotesque.

 Blackie wrote:
I'm a biomedical engineer, I've never seen an african-middle eastern man/woman in the medical field, people of foreign origins sure, but no one that actually studied in the third world.

I have a PhD in computer science, and I have seen plenty. And just in case you want us to believe that it's only the case in CS, I have a very good friend who is has a PhD in molecular biology, and got a Master degree equivalent in Iran before coming to France. Her sister did the same too. .

 Blackie wrote:
No african or middle eastern universities' degrees has value in europe, and unless you're talking about human guinea's pigs I won't see any people that come from the third world in a research lab. Which is one of my fields of works too.


And human experimentation is illegal and morally wrong, you can't really mean it but in the same time there aren't people that have studied in those countries that actually have qualified jobs in europe, those savages can't do other things in a research lab.

I'm going to assume there is a translation issue here. Calling people, especially people of colour "savages' is very offensive and rude in English.

 feeder wrote:

 Blackie wrote:
No african or middle eastern universities' degrees has value in europe, and unless you're talking about human guinea's pigs I won't see any people that come from the third world in a research lab. Which is one of my fields of works too.


And human experimentation is illegal and morally wrong, you can't really mean it but in the same time there aren't people that have studied in those countries that actually have qualified jobs in europe, those savages can't do other things in a research lab.

I'm going to assume there is a translation issue here. Calling people, especially people of colour "savages' is very offensive and rude in English.

Sometimes I wonder where dakkadakka finds these people, I feel like were 5 minutes away from some dark continent comment.

Nevertheless some information from when the refugee crisis was at its height: http://www.pewglobal.org/2016/08/02/1-asylum-seeker-origins-a-rapid-rise-for-most-countries/
As you can see the first 3 highest numbers are from basically war zones and the next two are from European countries. 42% of these people are young males between 18-34 years old, its a significant amount, but nowhere near the vast majority. Note that 46% were women and children.

Also some crime numbers on the country most 'affected' by the refugee crisis.

Recent numbers from Germany’s Federal Criminal Police Agency (BKA) suggest that the influx of refugees into the country this fall had a low impact on crime numbers relative to the natural uptick that would happen with any population increase: Although the number of refugees in the country increased by 440 percent between 2014 and 2015, the number of crimes committed by refugees only increased by 79 percent. (The number of crimes against refugees increased as well.) Furthermore, according to Deutsche Welle’s analysis of the report, the number of offenses increased in the first half of 2015 but “stagnated” in the second half, precisely when most of the refugees were arriving and the rumor mill switched into overdrive. And although sexual offenses account for over 25 percent of the rumors on the Hoaxmap, the BKA data showed that only 1 percent of refugee-related crimes fell into the sexual offense category.

Unless of course we start arguing there is some vast undercurrent of illegals that never got registered before disappearing into illegality that dwarfs those I listed.

Oh and just because some seem to be going crazy over Hybrid's MALE comments, here are some fun charts:

From Gallup: http://www.gallup.com/poll/148763/muslim-americans-no-justification-violence.aspx

Maybe people should consider the fact that Blackie is Italian, and that most people who get there from African countries do so illegaly through Lampedusa. It is a completely different situation from that of Fulan ibn Fulan (aka Someone Someoneson) who is from an ex-French colony, has a degree and thanks to his university's ties got a job in Europe. Or to that of Persian Girl (no relation at all to Florida Man, or to Kentucky Man), who studied in the Lyceé Françoise and got to go to France. Or whatever other case of going to your old metropoli because now you are friends.

Now, I'm not advocating to shoot their boats and let them drown, but its pretty easy to call out racism while sitting with your tea (or booze), looking out the window and not seeing another episode of Zodiac D-Day, starring 40 people (more like 50 if we count pregnant women as two persons), a badly maintained Zodiac and one bucket of suspicious drinking water.

Or people climbing a wall, violating your borders and attacking your policemen. After all the work you did to put spikes and sharp things on it.

Also, its really funny how Spain is that one country in Europe thats stable and doesn't have a xenophobic right. I'm not sure how Forza Nuova is on Italy, they seem kinda like a joke but I haven't done much reasearch. Point is, no Le Pen and no UKIP and no Nederlanden Guy who I can't remember righ now.

Also, if you are so worried about people running away from war only to die or be mistreated, maybe consider putting more money into keeping the Mediterranean safe, putting more presure on North African countries that get rich off of those illegal immigrants who whore off their life's savings to get to Europe.

Or at the very least, cut all the jokes about spending your money on booze and bitches. It was funny the first few times, those Mediterraneans are all partiers and so!. But its a done joke.

Maybe we shold put all the illegals on trains and send them to France. And France can send them to Germany, or Poland, or Scandinavia!



Also, how's the thing going on in there with the bad guys and the worse guys? Did some offensive happen? I've seen something about the rebels launching an offensive against the legitimate government of Syria (hey, you can say whatever you want about how he's a monster, and I'll probably agree, but he's the one recognized government right now) 3 days ago, does anyone have any details? I'm only finding pieces.

 Blackie wrote:
But in my opinion having 1, 5, 10 or 20 of these western extremists is an exception, intelligence says there are thousands of radicals and possible terrorists in europe,

I'm sure it does, but those thousands include White, Christian Sociopaths, and far more than 20 or even 200 of them. Europe's home grown boys are playing the long game and most understand that high body-counts don't push their agenda (usually). They also tend to lean toward car bombs and mortar attacks than suicide runs.

@ aldo: I have a whole country over run by all these crazy Europeans that call themselves Americans. Believe me, I live every day what would be Blackies worst nightmare and frankly, it's not as bad as i grouse about sometimes. As far as I know, the action is all in Mosul atm, with IS holding on, so far.

Tyran wrote:

Even at their best, battleships depended on a large amount of support ships to protect it from airstrikes and submarines.

and that's different from every single other surface combatant HOW exactly???? (though, in fact, a battleship can, on it's own, mount significant CWIS and SAMs).

Tyran wrote:

Even assuming that the battleship is practically invulnerable to missiles, its support ships aren't, and the battleship doesn't has the range to engage missile destroyers.

Interestingly, battleships DO carry cruise missile launchers as secondary weapons post 1980. Further there's absolutely nothing that says that a battleship can't be built with several VLS in addition to it's main armament.

Tyran wrote:

To put a 40k example. The battleship is like Guilliman, with an absurd punch and incredibly hard to kill, but it still basically a melee model with a 6" move.

.....you really do not know a lot about battleships, do you? You do know that there's a whole classification called 'Fast Battleship' for a reason, right? Iowa, as an example, has a top speed exceeding many foreign nations carriers and those, not the cruisers or missile DDs, are what sets the pace for a carrier group.

 aldo wrote:
Lyceé Françoise

 aldo wrote:
Now, I'm not advocating to shoot their boats and let them drown, but its pretty easy to call out racism while sitting with your tea (or booze), looking out the window and not seeing another episode of Zodiac D-Day, starring 40 people (more like 50 if we count pregnant women as two persons), a badly maintained Zodiac and one bucket of suspicious drinking water.

So you are saying that it's easier to not dehumanize people when you don't see them rather than when you see them ?

 aldo wrote:
Or people climbing a wall, violating your borders and attacking your policemen.

Suuuuuuuuuuure…

 aldo wrote:
Or at the very least, cut all the jokes about spending your money on booze and bitches. It was funny the first few times, those Mediterraneans are all partiers and so!. But its a done joke.

???
I have no idea what you are talking about.

 aldo wrote:
Maybe we shold put all the illegals on trains and send them to France. And France can send them to Germany, or Poland, or Scandinavia!

???
So you think there are more illegal immigrants in Spain than in France?

As far as I'm concerned, put them all on an express train to Germany. Mother Merkel invited them after all.

That's true. She took the decision to invite them here without consulting anyone else (particularly Greece and Italy who'd bare the brunt of it), so she should be shouldering the burden.

 BaronIveagh wrote:


and that's different from every single other surface combatant HOW exactly???? (though, in fact, a battleship can, on it's own, mount significant CWIS and SAMs).

The difference is that the battleship pays a lot for that heavy armor. Heavy armor that is useless against torpedoes. Any other ship works on the idea of not being hit in the first place

Interestingly, battleships DO carry cruise missile launchers as secondary weapons post 1980. Further there's absolutely nothing that says that a battleship can't be built with several VLS in addition to it's main armament.

.....you really do not know a lot about battleships, do you? You do know that there's a whole classification called 'Fast Battleship' for a reason, right? Iowa, as an example, has a top speed exceeding many foreign nations carriers and those, not the cruisers or missile DDs, are what sets the pace for a carrier group.

A 35 knot speed isn't going to change the fact that its main armament is out-ranged by several orders of magnitude.

If the battleship comes back, it isn't going for anti-ship duties but for coastal bombardment. Its guns are not optimized for mobile targets that can comfortably engage it from a thousand miles away.

 aldo wrote:
Maybe people should consider the fact that Blackie is Italian, and that most people who get there from African countries do so illegaly through Lampedusa. It is a completely different situation from that of Fulan ibn Fulan (aka Someone Someoneson) who is from an ex-French colony, has a degree and thanks to his university's ties got a job in Europe. Or to that of Persian Girl (no relation at all to Florida Man, or to Kentucky Man), who studied in the Lyceé Françoise and got to go to France. Or whatever other case of going to your old metropoli because now you are friends.

Now, I'm not advocating to shoot their boats and let them drown, but its pretty easy to call out racism while sitting with your tea (or booze), looking out the window and not seeing another episode of Zodiac D-Day, starring 40 people (more like 50 if we count pregnant women as two persons), a badly maintained Zodiac and one bucket of suspicious drinking water.

Or people climbing a wall, violating your borders and attacking your policemen. After all the work you did to put spikes and sharp things on it.

Also, its really funny how Spain is that one country in Europe thats stable and doesn't have a xenophobic right. I'm not sure how Forza Nuova is on Italy, they seem kinda like a joke but I haven't done much reasearch. Point is, no Le Pen and no UKIP and no Nederlanden Guy who I can't remember righ now.

Also, if you are so worried about people running away from war only to die or be mistreated, maybe consider putting more money into keeping the Mediterranean safe, putting more presure on North African countries that get rich off of those illegal immigrants who whore off their life's savings to get to Europe.

Or at the very least, cut all the jokes about spending your money on booze and bitches. It was funny the first few times, those Mediterraneans are all partiers and so!. But its a done joke.

Maybe we shold put all the illegals on trains and send them to France. And France can send them to Germany, or Poland, or Scandinavia!



Also, how's the thing going on in there with the bad guys and the worse guys? Did some offensive happen? I've seen something about the rebels launching an offensive against the legitimate government of Syria (hey, you can say whatever you want about how he's a monster, and I'll probably agree, but he's the one recognized government right now) 3 days ago, does anyone have any details? I'm only finding pieces.

This is getting a bit ridiculous. People with higher education degrees might have an easier time to apply for certain visas for jobs in industries. Compare this to refugees or lower educated migrants that have to take a more difficult way in. It doesn't mean these people are less educated or savages, it just means we play favourites on who we rather want in the EU.

Most of Italy won't see the horrors of Lampedusa personally either and will get the exact same images as the rest of us do through media.

Just to make clear why Spain does not suffer from a significant right wing party. Spain overall has very little problems with migrants and refugees. As well as having nowhere near the Muslim population for politicians to fear-monger off of. Less than 2% of Spain is Muslim and this number is so insignificant that this 2% includes Islam, Protestant Christianity and Buddhism, so few they don't even get their own %. This is not comparable to countries like France or Germany (I don't condone the Islamophobia in either case, just saying Spain doesn't have the same 'fertile' electoral basis). Yes, migrants/refugees do rush your African enclaves but most of these migrants don't want to stay in Spain as demonstrated by this list.

This is why Spain does not have a significant populist or xenophobic backlash. It just doesn't get anywhere near the same number of refugees/asylum seekers as other EU countries, too few to even get listed! Spain gets only 1% of all asylum applications from all those migrants and refugees entering the EU! I mean it gets even less than the UK. Compare this to 33% of all application for Germany and a 5% chunk of the country being Muslim and you have a much firmer basis for populists who can prey on xenophobes. Spain experiences at least less than a fifth of the influx of the refugee crisis compared to most of the countries you list. This is why you aren't "unstable and xenophobic" as you imply, unless you can link me to some research that shows me that Spain is much more magnanimous while not in any way being able to link this magnanimity to these demographic factors. Italy has its own problems with right wing parties, with especially the Lega Nord being viewed as similar to Le Pen and their views on migrants:
http://www.politico.eu/article/italys-other-matteo-salvini-northern-league-politicians-media-effettosalvini/
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/jun/13/lega-nord-migrants-rome-stand-off-luca-zaia
Every European country has problems. The Netherlands for example have some populist and xenophobic backlash, ironically in the least ethnically diverse parts of the country Geert Wilders (the guy you couldn't remember) is the strongest. I guess just the idea of seeing some spooky person that isn't lily-white is too much for some people in my country
Spain has its own problems with social conservatism and I very much debate your definition of stable, are the Netherlands or Germany unstable? Every EU country has problems, we just express and experience it differently.

The EU already spends a lot on patrolling the shores and sea, but its just too little and the smugglers have an interest in evading these patrols. And seeing as how most of these smugglers operate from the hell hole known as Libya I don't see how that nation is enriching itself of these migrants/refugees. We already try to intercept them off the Libyan coast and sent them back. There just isn't enough money in the EU to stop every little boat.

And Dijsselbloem made one joke, probably because he was so tired of the economical instability of the Mediterranean EU countries. Of course he should have never made that joke. But the frustration in Northern Europe is real. We are bailing out Greeks, Spanish, Portugese and with a bit of bad luck Italians. Even the French mess up, its just frustrating reform is so slow to push through for something affecting the whole Eurozone. Talk about Spain being stable (Personal opinion: I think this whole shtick is stupid, we chose the Eurozone and didn't implement it properly. Of course there is a measure of personal responsibility in the Mediterranean countries not getting their finances in order. We can pressure them on that point, but please lets stop pretending were getting our money back from places like Greece, just start restructuring that debt instead of forever being afraid of losing those voters dumb enough to realize that money is never going to come back. The lack of future planning and the sense of being kindred EU states is seriously lacking in most EU states .)

But lets not pretend we do some research before spewing out crap like 'put them on the trains!'. Most illegals did get registered before leaving the official track, before getting their asylum denied (as economic migrants frequently realize they might not be allowed to stay). Prove to me these illegals are living in Spain or Italy in huge numbers, because as you can see Spain is certainly not anywhere near pulling its weight size wise in the EU.


Actually, some Western countries have also accepted the opposition as the recognized government of Syria, so you get to pick and choose if the monster murdering his own people really deserves to be called the official government. More to the point, the rebels have been launching a small offensive on Damascus to relieve pressure on their front and restore certain positions in the region. In my view, its the rebels trying to show the West that they are still there. After the crushing losses such as Aleppo and the focus on the final push for Raqqa, the rebels are getting a bit forgotten and slowly but surely crushed by the Syrian/Russian/Iranian forces grinding away at their territory. It also coincides with peace talks that are supposed to start this week, so besides letting the world know they still exist, attacking Damascus also shows Assad that they aren't ready to roll over and die. It might strengthen their bargaining position depending on the state of the Syrian army to continue fighting after six years and regional allies's willingness to commit more troops and material to Assad who might not be seen winning in the short term.

In italy only a few of the illegals that cross the sea get the refugee status, but our police can't use the force to send them back. That's means that thousands of illegals cross the border illegally (if they can) and then disappears through europe, many others become slaves exploited by mafia groups. They work in the fields with no human rights, or as drug dealers or they sell counterfeit stuff at shores. Over 90% of them are men. In this article it's explained that 97% of the illegals that asked for the refugees status in Padova couldn't get it, because there were no wars or persecutions in their countries. It's written in italian, sorry about that, but I don't think I will never find articles about this in english.

http://www.ilgiornale.it/news/politica/altro-che-fuga-guerra-97-sono-finti-rifugiati-1289234.html

In countries like germany, sweden, norway or the uk it's a different story, they only take the real refugees or people that managed to be disguised as a refugee, we take everyone instead because otherwise they would drown. But once they get here they can't have a future, they're not refugees and they lack any competence. And thanks to our extremely slow bureaucracy it takes 1-2 years to determine if a man is a refugee or not, in the meantime they are treated like they were refugees. In several occasions they terrorized the residents showing their violent nature, and these ones are the people host in refugees' shelters, not those ones that have already turned into criminals.

In the article posted by disciple of faith I read about the nationality of those asylum seekers, in italy come no one from syria, iraq or afghanistan, they're mostly from nigeria, cameroon, gambia, eritrea, somalia but also tunisia, algeria and morocco, some from pakistan and balcanic regions. In the EU the refugee status is not granted automatically if you come from there nations, in many occasions there isn't the slightest chance to get it. Many of the illegals don't even ask for the status, they know they won't get it.

Muslims communities here are made by people that lived in italy since many years, many of them are italians with foreign origins but citizens like any other people that was born here.

Far rights groups (which are extremely weak in Italy, thankfully) don't make distintions, they talk about race, colur of the skin and religion. I talk about the way of living and the relationship between a person and his/her faith.

The london attacker was a wealthy english man, not someone that comes from the third world, or someone that wanted revenge as the uk bombed his country of origin. Radicalism should not be tolerated, ISIS and terrorism are only a consequence, if we wipe out ISIS in the regions where they reign we would solve nothing, another radical muslim group will take its place immediately.

Sending back the illegals in an efficient way and fight religious radicalisms are two different things, but we can't solve the problem if we don't deal with both factors.

 Blackie wrote:
In italy only a few of the illegals that cross the sea get the refugee status, but our police can't use the force to send them back. That's means that thousands of illegals cross the border illegally (if they can) and then disappears through europe, many others become slaves exploited by mafia groups. They work in the fields with no human rights, or as drug dealers or they sell counterfeit stuff at shores. Over 90% of them are men. In this article it's explained that 97% of the illegals that asked for the refugees status in Padova couldn't get it, because there were no wars or persecutions in their countries. It's written in italian, sorry about that, but I don't think I will never find articles about this in english.

http://www.ilgiornale.it/news/politica/altro-che-fuga-guerra-97-sono-finti-rifugiati-1289234.html

In countries like germany, sweden, norway or the uk it's a different story, they only take the real refugees or people that managed to be disguised as a refugee, we take everyone instead because otherwise they would drown. But once they get here they can't have a future, they're not refugees and they lack any competence. And thanks to our extremely slow bureaucracy it takes 1-2 years to determine if a man is a refugee or not, in the meantime they are treated like they were refugees. In several occasions they terrorized the residents showing their violent nature, and these ones are the people host in refugees' shelters, not those ones that have already turned into criminals.

In the article posted by disciple of faith I read about the nationality of those asylum seekers, in italy come no one from syria, iraq or afghanistan, they're mostly from nigeria, cameroon, gambia, eritrea, somalia but also tunisia, algeria and morocco, some from pakistan and balcanic regions. In the EU the refugee status is not granted automatically if you come from there nations, in many occasions there isn't the slightest chance to get it. Many of the illegals don't even ask for the status, they know they won't get it.

Muslims communities here are made by people that lived in italy since many years, many of them are italians with foreign origins but citizens like any other people that was born here.

Far rights groups (which are extremely weak in Italy, thankfully) don't make distintions, they talk about race, colur of the skin and religion. I talk about the way of living and the relationship between a person and his/her faith.

The london attacker was a wealthy english man, not someone that comes from the third world, or someone that wanted revenge as the uk bombed his country of origin. Radicalism should not be tolerated, ISIS and terrorism are only a consequence, if we wipe out ISIS in the regions where they reign we would solve nothing, another radical muslim group will take its place immediately.

Sending back the illegals in an efficient way and fight religious radicalisms are two different things, but we can't solve the problem if we don't deal with both factors.

I think the issue here is what you term as illegals. Technically you could term all the refugees and migrants as illegals as they don't have the legal permission to enter the EU (refugees are a bit of a legal issue concerning status, first safe country and travelling further etc.). The issue with illegals you mention is those documented that cross to Italy coming from African countries that people would term as economic migrants. Seeing the goal why they come here (making money for their family back home) and the fact that they will realize they won't be granted political asylum the go into illegality after being processed in the system. If you look at this chart it does mention the African countries from which many migrants come:

This also clearly shows you that Italy has nowhere near the same problem as other EU states (look at the application numbers posted). These people arriving in Italy don't just have free reign. They go to processing facilities from islands such as Lampedusa and get their applications filed. But after this is done they get send to asylum centres, from which point onward they go into illegality. You say these people never ask for status but they don't have to. The vast majority arrives on tiny islands or outposts in Spanish Northern Africa or Greek and Italian islands. We as Europeans transport them to the mainland from which point onward they trek to Germany or go into illegality. We have paperwork on these people going into illegality, we just don't keep track of all the people that this paperwork is connected to. Like Hybrid said, do you have proof of Italy being swamped and all those illegals not moving on to places like France. Because I can make such a statement without number too but with English articles: http://www.politico.eu/article/amnesty-migrants-deprived-of-rights-on-french-italian-border/
Technically we don't have to let them pass as they should let themselves be processed in their country of entry, but we all know this takes years and is more than an unfair burden to put on places like Greece or Italy. And I'm not going in on crime rate as you will have to back that up, as googling crime and migrants will list you a ton of shitposting by organisations such as breibart and muslimstatistics (insert vomit orkmoticon). The only data I found on crime rate between migrants and Italians of the same age category that seems anywhere reliable, shows me a 1.8% rate for migrants and 1.5% for Italians, not exactly a shocking number as Italians will vastly outnumber the amount of migrants, thereby making the 0.3% higher number by migrants outnumbered in absolute numbers by Italians in the age group. But this does in no way take into account the fact that economic conditions for the vast majority of Italians in that age group will be better than for those migrants. You might say 'yeah its .3% higher and its higher whatever you say', but these people are basically destitute after they have crossed. In reference the crime rate for Italians over 65 in the study is .6%. So If migrants are such terrible criminals you might want to start locking up specific age groups next.

My issue isn't with fighting terrorism, my issue is in the misrepresentation of migration and refugees.

 Future War Cultist wrote:
That's true. She took the decision to invite them here without consulting anyone else (particularly Greece and Italy who'd bare the brunt of it), so she should be shouldering the burden.

Germany is, and she really didn't have much choice, IIRC Germany's Constitution appears to require that she do so.(article 16a "Persons persecuted on political grounds shall have the right of asylum")

Tyran wrote:


A 35 knot speed isn't going to change the fact that its main armament is out-ranged by several orders of magnitude.

I'd really like to go into depth with you on this, about how a BB can hold many, many more VLS cells as secondary armament than three or four Ticonderoga class missile cruisers can field as main armament, but let's focus on the topic. No further posts will be answered here on BBs.

 BaronIveagh wrote:

 Future War Cultist wrote:
That's true. She took the decision to invite them here without consulting anyone else (particularly Greece and Italy who'd bare the brunt of it), so she should be shouldering the burden.

Germany is, and she really didn't have much choice, IIRC Germany's Constitution appears to require that she do so.(article 16a "Persons persecuted on political grounds shall have the right of asylum")

Tyran wrote:


A 35 knot speed isn't going to change the fact that its main armament is out-ranged by several orders of magnitude.

I'd really like to go into depth with you on this, about how a BB can hold many, many more VLS cells as secondary armament than three or four Ticonderoga class missile cruisers can field as main armament, but let's focus on the topic. No further posts will be answered here on BBs.

Should we just start a new thread on the floating fortresses if people want to discuss the subject.
Its a distinct topic so I think mods be fine.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 BaronIveagh wrote:

 Future War Cultist wrote:
That's true. She took the decision to invite them here without consulting anyone else (particularly Greece and Italy who'd bare the brunt of it), so she should be shouldering the burden.

Germany is, and she really didn't have much choice, IIRC Germany's Constitution appears to require that she do so.(article 16a "Persons persecuted on political grounds shall have the right of asylum")

Tyran wrote:


A 35 knot speed isn't going to change the fact that its main armament is out-ranged by several orders of magnitude.

I'd really like to go into depth with you on this, about how a BB can hold many, many more VLS cells as secondary armament than three or four Ticonderoga class missile cruisers can field as main armament, but let's focus on the topic. No further posts will be answered here on BBs.

If it merits it we could make a new thread to cover the floating fortress debate.
Its distinct and should be ok with mods.

 Disciple of Fate wrote:

I think the issue here is what you term as illegals. Technically you could term all the refugees and migrants as illegals as they don't have the legal permission to enter the EU (refugees are a bit of a legal issue concerning status, first safe country and travelling further etc.). The issue with illegals you mention is those documented that cross to Italy coming from African countries that people would term as economic migrants. Seeing the goal why they come here (making money for their family back home) and the fact that they will realize they won't be granted political asylum the go into illegality after being processed in the system. If you look at this chart it does mention the African countries from which many migrants come:

This also clearly shows you that Italy has nowhere near the same problem as other EU states (look at the application numbers posted). These people arriving in Italy don't just have free reign. They go to processing facilities from islands such as Lampedusa and get their applications filed. But after this is done they get send to asylum centres, from which point onward they go into illegality. You say these people never ask for status but they don't have to. The vast majority arrives on tiny islands or outposts in Spanish Northern Africa or Greek and Italian islands. We as Europeans transport them to the mainland from which point onward they trek to Germany or go into illegality. We have paperwork on these people going into illegality, we just don't keep track of all the people that this paperwork is connected to. Like Hybrid said, do you have proof of Italy being swamped and all those illegals not moving on to places like France. Because I can make such a statement without number too but with English articles: http://www.politico.eu/article/amnesty-migrants-deprived-of-rights-on-french-italian-border/
Technically we don't have to let them pass as they should let themselves be processed in their country of entry, but we all know this takes years and is more than an unfair burden to put on places like Greece or Italy. And I'm not going in on crime rate as you will have to back that up, as googling crime and migrants will list you a ton of shitposting by organisations such as breibart and muslimstatistics (insert vomit orkmoticon). The only data I found on crime rate between migrants and Italians of the same age category that seems anywhere reliable, shows me a 1.8% rate for migrants and 1.5% for Italians, not exactly a shocking number as Italians will vastly outnumber the amount of migrants, thereby making the 0.3% higher number by migrants outnumbered in absolute numbers by Italians in the age group. But this does in no way take into account the fact that economic conditions for the vast majority of Italians in that age group will be better than for those migrants. You might say 'yeah its .3% higher and its higher whatever you say', but these people are basically destitute after they have crossed. In reference the crime rate for Italians over 65 in the study is .6%. So If migrants are such terrible criminals you might want to start locking up specific age groups next.

My issue isn't with fighting terrorism, my issue is in the misrepresentation of migration and refugees.

An illegal is someone that comes illegally in a country and has no right to stay. Like mexicans that cross the US border. Refugees also come illegally but then they have the rights to stay.

Your data can be applied to other european countries, a lot of illegals here disappear before asking the refugee status. In our prisons almost 33% of the convicted criminals are foreigners, while italy has only a tiny percentage of residents that are foreingers or citizens with foreign origins. European countries like germany take only the refugees, not any illegal, at the border with france there's a city called Ventimiglia in which a significant number of illegals is gathered trying everyday to cross the border and enter France, and of course french police tries to stop them. Uk stopped the illegals gathered in the Calais Jungle. No one would take in an illegal.

We don't want to become like germany, the netherlands or france, which are becoming militarized nations in a permanent state of emergency like israel and with far rights groups near to the numbers that can grant them the election.

Other countries like holland have a significant application number compared to the italian case, and guess what? Politicians like wilders are growing stronger and stronger. The presence of a huge number of illegals and a vast muslim community that demands to change the country where it lives in a muslim oriented one are two different but huge problems, that both lead to the formation of active terrorists in europe. Ignoring or minimizing them it's only making those problems stronger.

Fighting terrorism means nothing if we don't solve the problem, which is the islamic radicalization in europe. You can kill as many bin ladens as you want, there will always be new terroristic groups if islamic fanatisms remain strong.

 Blackie wrote:
An illegal is someone that comes illegally in a country and has no right to stay. Like mexicans that cross the US border. Refugees also come illegally but then they have the rights to stay.

Your data can be applied to other european countries, a lot of illegals here disappear before asking the refugee status. In our prisons almost 33% of the convicted criminals are foreigners, while italy has only a tiny percentage of residents that are foreingers or citizens with foreign origins. European countries like germany take only the refugees, not any illegal, at the border with france there's a city called Ventimiglia in which a significant number of illegals is gathered trying everyday to cross the border and enter France, and of course french police tries to stop them. Uk stopped the illegals gathered in the Calais Jungle. No one would take in an illegal.

My issue with you classifying people as illegals is that you don't seem to realize there is a world of difference between how Mexicans in the US are and move around as illegals and how people crossing the Mediterranean do so. Mexicans do so by crossing the border unnoticed or on tourist visas. People crossing the Mediterranean do so in tiny boats arriving on tiny islands, after which the authorities give them medical attention, register them and ship them off to mainland Italy or Greece. There is my first issue with you calling on some unknown number of illegals entering and disappearing into the EU, we give them the opportunity to disappear, they don't exactly D-Day the beaches of France and Italy to run off into the woods. Second, someone illegally entering the country does not equal not having a right to stay. Like you said, refugees are also illegals and only after a review of their status and story can we actually say who has and who hasn't have the right.

Again, just because illegals disappear before asking for refugee status doesn't mean that European countries don't have a good idea of how many people are actually entering the EU, most enter in the extremely controlled environment of a small island from which they move on with the help of the authorities. Even the huge groups of people moving to the Balkans to Hungary first had to filter through Greece.

Your prison statistics are extremely misleading. 33% sounds like a huge number, but look at the breakdown of that 33%. From the end of 2015:

So far, Italy’s prison population hasn’t begun to reflect the migrant crisis. The largest group of foreign migrants behind bars are from Morocco, reflecting a diaspora to Italy that more than doubled between 1998 and 2012 to nearly a half-million people, according to the Migration Policy Institute. Romanians make up the second-largest pool of foreign convicts; an estimated 1 million Romanians immigrated to Italy in search of jobs over the last decade. Inmates from Tunisia and Albania are also numerous in Italian prisons..

Not exactly the people crossing the Mediterranean in boats right? Unless only the Tunisian migrants that cross the Mediterranean are the actual problem, but I hardly believe criminal statistics can be so closely linked to just a single nationality crossing.
So you know, what happens at the French border or Calais is exactly what happens to refugees. The reason the police stop these people is because technically they don't have the right to enter until their paperwork is finished in their country of entry, i.e. Italy. The EU-Turkey deal meanwhile assures that for everyone arriving on Greek shores it is a quick trip back to Turkey, we currently exchange two illegals for one documented refugee. This is without verifying if those two we exchange are refugees themselves though! The reason we block people from just crossing borders whenever they want is A. we can't keep track of them otherwise and B. cynical countries thinking its just better for the other ones to sort out the mess.

 Blackie wrote:
We don't want to become like germany, the netherlands or france, which are becoming militarized nations in a permanent state of emergency like israel and with far rights groups near to the numbers that can grant them the election.
Other countries like holland have a significant application number compared to the italian case, and guess what? Politicians like wilders are growing stronger and stronger. The presence of a huge number of illegals and a vast muslim community that demands to change the country where it lives in a muslim oriented one are two different but huge problems, that both lead to the formation of active terrorists in europe. Ignoring or minimizing them it's only making those problems stronger.

Fighting terrorism means nothing if we don't solve the problem, which is the islamic radicalization in europe. You can kill as many bin ladens as you want, there will always be new terroristic groups if islamic fanatisms remain strong.

This is just gibberish. How are Germany, the Netherlands or France anything like Isreal? France might fit your state of emergency talk. But this isn't anywhere near the case for the Netherlands or Germany, but I'm guessing you're talking from personal experience right? And it is hardly militarized, leaving aside the fact that France has a different system to the two others that would have been considered a bit more strict to begin with. I also like how you claim we are some kind of far right hel holes that give those parties power. Wilders has lost in voting share since 2010, way before the migrant/refugee crisis, he just isn't a viable alternative. The AfD in Germany is still very much a fringe party that will be happy if it makes the election threshold, and Le Pen has been around for ages as well, with no indication she is going to win this time around. If you look at Italy with the Lega Nord you have a party that is basically calling half of the Italians lazy parasites and wanting an independent North and less migrants. People living in glass houses should be a bit more nuanced about far right parties before throwing stones.

You also have no idea what Muslims want. Most Muslims in the Netherlands, Germany and France are perfectly decent people that are happen to live in a Western democracy. Just because they don''t want to be forced to give up every aspect of their culture or religion under xenophobic and populist pressure does not in anyway mean that they want to turn this into a Muslim country. This is such a tired argument about 'ebil Muslims' coming to subvert the Western world. Are some of them actually bad people? Sure, but so are ethnically Dutch, French or German citizens. Also 7% Muslims in France in one of the highest numbers in Europe, how this is a 'vast' Muslim community is beyond me. We don't ignore the problems of radicalization, but this is also in great deal caused by lack of integration and inherent racism that is as much caused by our individual states. Look at the European born kids and barely adults that have gone to fight in Syria and what their reasons were. They aren't religiously indoctrinated fanatics but children too stupid to realize what they are getting themselves into, complaining there is no wifi and such but trying to find a place in which they belong. Of course those people are dumb as rocks (enough media exposure about how horrible it is) and some actually do know what they are getting themselves into, but these represent 0.0001% of our Muslim populations. Your blanket statements on Muslims and illegals on the other hand sure do make the problems of terrorism stronger by demonizing large parts of innocent society.

Fighting terrorism means nothing if we demonize and criminalize large groups of citizens who just happen to have the same religion. Just like Hybrid said, they also happen to have a penis, it doesn't mean the vast majority of us are ok with rapists running around that just happen to share that one distinction with us. Most Islamic terror organization kill more Muslims than anyone else. Islamic terrorism in Europe has nowhere near reached the level of socialist terrorism we once had, and we have managed just fine without going all McCharthy on the left wing electorate in Europe. Stopping radicalisation is on both sides of society, but it sure will be helpful if we drop the racism inherent in the system that leads to higher unemployment and lower education rates amongst these people and stop the BS narrative of they are coming to take our liberties away and convert us all.

Well to be honest many of the illegals that came by the sea are actually from morocco, algeria or tunisia, even anis amri, the killer of german market, was a tunisian that crossed the mediterranean sea. You talk about what muslims want, but many people I met that were from northern european countries, including holland, had no real relationships with these people. French banlieus, molenbeek, birmingham, rotterdam are not the perfect example of decent people that want to live in a western democracy.

http://chiesa.espresso.repubblica.it/articolo/1338480bdc4.html?eng=y

You are basically justifying muslims that turn into terrorists, saying that they are stupid or they have no choice, in italy there are millions that live in regions ruled by mafia groups, where the state has no power at all, kids that born there have little chances to avoid being part of the mafia system too, but no one justify them here, there are also people that die because they want to change things and many other that live making huge sacrifices in order to live honestly. If a muslim turns into a terrorist it's entirely his/her fault, especially if he/she's born in europe and not in the third world.

I've told several times that I'm not against muslims, I'm against those muslim communities that live with their rules and hate western societies. Believe me or not there are a lot of them, even in your country, which actually host the capital of eurabia.

You underestimate le pen, akesson or wilders, like people underestimated trump. Politicians like these ones would have got 100.000 votes 10 years ago, now there are millions that voted for them. If things continue this way they would have great chances to win and rule their countries.

He's underestimating Wilders when we just had an election where he lost influence?

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
He's underestimating Wilders when we just had an election where he lost influence?

Define "lost influence".

Didn't his party GAIN 5 seats? That's hardly what I'd call losing influence.

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
He's underestimating Wilders when we just had an election where he lost influence?

Define "lost influence".

Didn't his party GAIN 5 seats? That's hardly what I'd call losing influence.

4 seats, but point taken.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
He's underestimating Wilders when we just had an election where he lost influence?

Define "lost influence".

Didn't his party GAIN 5 seats? That's hardly what I'd call losing influence.

4 seats, but point taken.

Wikipedia says 5.

PVV Geert Wilders 13.1% 20 +5

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dutch_general_election,_2017


In any case, he didn't "lose influence", he gained it. He simply didn't gain as much as was predicted. i.e. His gains were overestimated.

Can someone explain to me why Blackie continue to pretend he doesn't want to have strong far-right parties when he says stuff that even most far-right party wouldn't dare to say, like:

 Blackie wrote:
but in the same time there aren't people that have studied in those countries that actually have qualified jobs in europe, those savages can't do other things in a research lab.

Also can someone explain why the mods have no problem with this comment?