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 Vineheart01 wrote:
Was Warp'eads ever their own datasheet? even in the old paperback (forget which gen it was before our dumpster 7th edition book) it was an upgrade option to a weirdboy.

I really wish they'd up the number of slots in a single detachment. This wasnt that big an issue in the past when everyone only had 1 battleforce option because things were expensive enough to make it difficult to even need more slots. But these days we have so many single models that are stupid cheap and HQs that feel mandatory so we cant use the optional ones easily. Probably the only thing i wish they'd adapt from age of sigmar is how armies are built.
Hell, as Admech i mostly bring my pteraxii because they fill slots i normally dont use and my other slots are full w/o being 2k lol

2nd edition we had zogwart HQ and I beleive warpead and minderz.. but I tossed all my old books out over a year ago.

 Vineheart01 wrote:
Buggies shouldnt have been on bases to begin with. None of them need it for stability reasons and thats the only reason vehicles ever had them.

Agree. That is the reason why I magnetized the bases on them so I can enjoy the buggies without it…

gungo wrote:
2nd edition we had zogwart HQ and I beleive warpead and minderz.. but I tossed all my old books out over a year ago.

Possessed Warphead and Minderz are from Freebooterz (RT). I loved Minderz as you got 2 beefy Orks in Power Armour. On the topic, I´d like Skumgrod back too. Imperial Advisor to my beloved Blood Axes was awesome.

Quite excited about the new Dok too. Holding fingers crossed for a 5+++ aura. I love my blobs and ways to preserve them as long as possible

 Jidmah wrote:
Why are having this argument again? This was clarified a few page ago with the same people.

Stompas can't be wholly within a 9" KFF bubble because wholly within means absolutely no part of a non-based model may stick out. Claiming that save without house-ruling it first is cheating. Adding a base to modify how your model plays is modeling for advantage which also is just a form of cheating.

If you want the full blown dakka gakshow on this topic, feel free to take it to YMDC, but as there is no ambiguity on this topic in regards to rules, let's not bring it up again.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Tomsug wrote:
It worth to ask them how they fit the Stompa in KFF bouble does anybody know some of them?

The simple answer is that almost no one is aware of this issue so they are most likely unknowingly playing it wrong. The battlewagon is a model that also is regularly affected by this problem and there are hundreds of battle reports and recorded videos out there where people are playing it wrong. Essentially every time someone is covering two battlewagons with a single KFF there is a good chance of one of them having some part outside of the 9" sphere.

Im going to contest your claim here entirely for learning purposes: the KFF isnt stated as a "bubble" in the rules that I could find. I always thought of it as a cylinder since it only states that the model has to be within 9" of the KFF bearing big mek. Therefore if no parts of your model are sticking out on a horizontal plane, they are covered by the KFF. Please inform me on where you found the rules of a KFF being a bubble and not only regarding horizontal distance. I can see it making sense from a "realistic" point of view since those kinds of things tend to function in a radius around a certain point but rules wise its not clear to me.

Jidmah wrote it there about 2 weeks ago. It' s a measuring base-to-hull issue:

“To be wholly within 9", every part of a model must be within 9". For models without a base, you measure to the hull, which is every part of a model. For models with a base, you only ever measure to the base, so if the base is within 9", it doesn't matter how much of a model is sticking out.”



Automatically Appended Next Post:
Which is super crazy with Eldar ships on tiny round base…

Thats another thing thats annoying about bases, they constantly flipflop on whether the skimmer base matters or if its just a stand and not an actual base.
Most vehicles on such things have a rule saying ignore the base, but some dont. Its mega annoying.

pepi55 wrote:
Im going to contest your claim here entirely for learning purposes: the KFF isnt stated as a "bubble" in the rules that I could find. I always thought of it as a cylinder since it only states that the model has to be within 9" of the KFF bearing big mek. Therefore if no parts of your model are sticking out on a horizontal plane, they are covered by the KFF. Please inform me on where you found the rules of a KFF being a bubble and not only regarding horizontal distance. I can see it making sense from a "realistic" point of view since those kinds of things tend to function in a radius around a certain point but rules wise its not clear to me.

It's in the core rules about measuring distances, and you are not allowed to ignore height when doing so.
To be within 9" of something, you need to measure from one model to another in a straight line - if one of the models is elevated (for example one is in a ruin and the other is not), you are to measure the diagonal line going up or down.

Relevant rule:
Distances are measured in inches (") between the closest points of the bases of the models you’re measuring to and from. If a model does not have a base, such as is the case with many vehicles, measure to the closest point of any part of that model; this is called measuring to the model’s hull. You can measure distances whenever you wish.

You might have the impression that you can ignore height because many rules like engagement range or heroic interventions have workarounds, but whenever you measure to anything, you always need to do so in all three dimensions. If a space marine captain is standing on the first level of a ruin, he will not be providing a unit of snipers on the third floor with re-rolls.

For a model to be wholly within of another model we have this rule:
If a rule says it affects units that are ‘wholly within’ then it only applies if every part of every model’s base (or hull) in that unit is within the specified distance.

So, since all KFF models are based, you pick the point closest to the stompa and every part of the stompa has to be with 9" of that point.

So any speculations about what the painboss is going to do? Better FNP? Invuln?

What I'm really hoping for is that he can give bionics to a unit, giving a 5++ without haviin to do kff, and that he can hopefully res models. Imagine if they could res the new squig riders

Measuring in 40k has never been infinite height, thats why really tall terrain is problematic and why theres weird workaround rules for engagement in 9th.
Remember in 8th a big ass Morkanaut could not legally melee something sitting on a ruin at the perfect height for its arm to easily swing at. Hell it was even such an issue that the Knights were given a special stratagem to attack upper levels.

Painboss i doubt would give 5++, as GW seems to refuse to give orks invuls outside of a KFF. More than likely its still a 6+++ aura with a selectable Core unit to get it buffed to 5+++ per command phase until the next command phase.
In all actuality, how much you wanna bet hes an apothecary clone with extra speed instead of a 3+ save? Can revive infantry or presumably the squigriders.

 Some_Call_Me_Tim wrote:
What I'm really hoping for is that he can give bionics to a unit, giving a 5++ without haviin to do kff, and that he can hopefully res models. Imagine if they could res the new squig riders

I'd be happy with a Ravenwing Apothecary clone .

 Some_Call_Me_Tim wrote:
What I'm really hoping for is that he can give bionics to a unit, giving a 5++ without haviin to do kff, and that he can hopefully res models. Imagine if they could res the new squig riders

I can see him giving bionics/cybork body since his back if full of mechanical limbs...

I think he's going to be a clone of the old dok sheet, gonna see some bionic upgrades for 1 unit, and i'm hopin for red/fightin juice.

 Kaptin_Grubkrumpa wrote:
So any speculations about what the painboss is going to do? Better FNP? Invuln?

They made a big deal about how his Soopa Legs give him the ability to keep up with the Squighog Riders. With that in mind he is probably fast as heck (since the Squighog riders are melee cavalry). I can see him filling the niche the old Painboy on Bike used to fill; he's tougher and he can run alongside your Warbikers or Stormboyz as well. I have seen someone mention on another forum that his "mask" might be a reimagining of an old Ork relic/upgrade that gave an aura of -1 leadership, but I don't know editions before 7th well enough to know if that is true. It would be interesting with this extremely fast and faceless butcher just sprinting at you, faster than a Warbike, would be terrifying to your average guardsman.

yeah i imagine its terrifying enough to see a big ass ork with a klaw bounding towards you, but one thats whizzing along like a cheetah? Eep...

Okay, so if I had to put money down on what the new painboy would do. Based on the description his cyber demon legs lets him run fast, so probably an above average move speed and any advance roll can't be lower than a 4. It also mentioned he's the one who passes out cybork parts, even has some spares on the model. So likely he'll get the ability to pass out permanent upgrades to a unit or two much like Fabius or that necron dude. Probably a random chart with a mixture of movement, durability in the form of an after save and maybe if we're lucky a damage output increase like strength or ap increase. As well as standard painboy healing which may or may not change at the new codex.

But yeah, that's my guess.

Question:
I'am preparing for a tournament (september) and I'am really struggling with my armylist. I want to field 3 kill tanks (deathskulls) but not sure what to add. Probably no new codex at that time so got to make the best of it. I'am going to add the warboss on bike (relic, stratagem and warlord trait) and probably 3 small commando units for secondary objectives.

I got mek guns with smasha's if needed. Their great for deploying on an objective and nice damage output but not really flexible.
Got no shokkjump dragstas or megatrakk scrapjets but could go in that direction.
Big unit of boy's could work but I'am not a fan in combining them with 3 kill tanks. Either go big and get the green tide list of get something else.
Mega armour nobs are nice but not very fast. Could put them in the kill tanks though.

Also, how can I prevent the Drukhari armies from dancing around me and taking all the objectives?

Any input?

Why would you field 3 killtanks as death skulls? the giga shoota has 30 shots, meaning they get more out of being Bad Moon, or in case you wanna cycle charge for the ram ability it has, then Blood axes.

Blood axes also gives you a nice +1 save at a distance.

The only reason id assume one would go deathskulls is if all 3 of your kill tanks run bursta cannons.

Your 3 killtanks needs to be in their own detatchment so deathskulls doesnt really do much for the killtanks id say.

Hitting on 4s (if you are close enough) rerolling 1s seem way better than what deathskulls would otherwise provide.

Beardedragon wrote:
Why would you field 3 killtanks as death skulls? the giga shoota has 30 shots, meaning they get more out of being Bad Moon, or in case you wanna cycle charge for the ram ability it has, then Blood axes.

Blood axes also gives you a nice +1 save at a distance.

The only reason id assume one would go deathskulls is if all 3 of your kill tanks run bursta cannons.

Your 3 killtanks needs to be in their own detatchment so deathskulls doesnt really do much for the killtanks id say.

Hitting on 4s (if you are close enough) rerolling 1s seem way better than what deathskulls would otherwise provide.

Thanks for the input but that was not my question. I got 3 big blue ork tank deathskull conversions that I want to field (I'am going to field 1 big bursta and two giga shoota btw.) and I'am just simply looking for the best setup to deal with the current enemy armies out there. I know that this army is not going to win the tournament but it's nice to at least pack a punch or making sure that the enemy needs to work for it in order to have a good game. I'am trying to find the right balance between scoring objectives and damage output. Maybe this:

Patrol
HQ: Ork boss warbike
HQ: Big mek forcefield (first turn use the stratagem to give everybody 5++ within 18 inch..)

TR: 1x unit grots

EL: 5 commando's
EL: 5 commando's

FA: 3x shokkjump dragstas
FA: 1x kopta with rokkits (great conversion so want to include it).

HE: 5 mek guns (smasha's)
HE: 5 mek guns (smasha's)

Superheavy detachment
3x Killtank (1x bursta)

shogun wrote:

Beardedragon wrote:
Why would you field 3 killtanks as death skulls? the giga shoota has 30 shots, meaning they get more out of being Bad Moon, or in case you wanna cycle charge for the ram ability it has, then Blood axes.

Blood axes also gives you a nice +1 save at a distance.

The only reason id assume one would go deathskulls is if all 3 of your kill tanks run bursta cannons.

Your 3 killtanks needs to be in their own detatchment so deathskulls doesnt really do much for the killtanks id say.

Hitting on 4s (if you are close enough) rerolling 1s seem way better than what deathskulls would otherwise provide.

Thanks for the input but that was not my question. I got 3 big blue ork tank deathskull conversions that I want to field (I'am going to field 1 big bursta and two giga shoota btw.) and I'am just simply looking for the best setup to deal with the current enemy armies out there. I know that this army is not going to win the tournament but it's nice to at least pack a punch or making sure that the enemy needs to work for it in order to have a good game. I'am trying to find the right balance between scoring objectives and damage output. Maybe this:

Patrol
HQ: Ork boss warbike
HQ: Big mek forcefield (first turn use the stratagem to give everybody 5++ within 18 inch..)

TR: 1x unit grots

EL: 5 commando's
EL: 5 commando's

FA: 3x shokkjump dragstas
FA: 1x kopta with rokkits (great conversion so want to include it).

HE: 5 mek guns (smasha's)
HE: 5 mek guns (smasha's)

Superheavy detachment
3x Killtank (1x bursta)

Ive never fielded 3 kill tanks before because i dont own any, so i dont know what they work well with. I just figured that i would point out that deathskulls (maybe unless all 3 tanks are bursta kannon versions) work best as Bad moon or maybe blood axes which was the input i could give.

You said you were struggling with your army list, and when it comes to army lists, i would say detatchment rules (klan kulture) is also important to consider as that is going to dictate how the army as whole works. I cant help you much with the army as whole though. i think your army looks decent otherwise.


One thing i noted was that you said you would spend 3 CP to increase the KFF to 18 inches. but you already spend 6CP alone on bringing your 3 killtanks. thats 9 CP spend already that leaves little room for much else. just a heads up.

Thanks, but this is more of the same and I would like to focus on the other 1000 points apart from the kill tanks that needs to get objectives or do damage and I struggle with that. What is the best way to get the most out of the first and/or second objectives?

Beardedragon wrote:
One thing i noted was that you said you would spend 3 CP to increase the KFF to 18 inches. but you already spend 6CP alone on bringing your 3 killtanks. thats 9 CP spend already that leaves little room for much else. just a heads up.

It's nice to have the option but if i don't need to protect the kill tanks first turn I just field the big mek with the mek guns.

I like to set my expectations low for the new painboss so I’m not disappointed... I bet the new painboss is just a painboy with a mini power claw thats +3 str and -2ap and no -1 to hit... same base stats maybe +1 Ld and 8” base movement... HQ choice... same 6+ fnp and same wound healing ability... still need to use a strat to heal ghaz.... remember technically mad doc grotsnik is a painboss... I wouldn’t expect the generic version to be better.

Ideally yeah youd want badmoonz but deathskullz isprobably what theyre gonna end up being so you can use the transport half of the killtank.

Thats what i was planning to do but i cant find a damn game locally (been a month since my last game, which was a tutorial thing so i didnt use the killtanks, and like 2 monthsb efore that was the previous game)

3 killtanks deathskullz loaded with pretty much everything else in the list. MANz, boyz, and nobz. Start with the KFF mek on foot to cover all 3 and once they start moving just hop in one since he would never keep up anyway.
Every time i made them Badmoonz i felt like the rest of my list wasnt doing anything.
And im not making the rest of the list Badmoonz. I despise Lootas (way overpriced), im not using multiple 30man shoota blobs, and deathskullz is vastly superior in every other situation.

shogun wrote:

Question:
I'am preparing for a tournament (september) and I'am really struggling with my armylist. I want to field 3 kill tanks (deathskulls) but not sure what to add. Probably no new codex at that time so got to make the best of it. I'am going to add the warboss on bike (relic, stratagem and warlord trait) and probably 3 small commando units for secondary objectives.

I got mek guns with smasha's if needed. Their great for deploying on an objective and nice damage output but not really flexible.
Got no shokkjump dragstas or megatrakk scrapjets but could go in that direction.
Big unit of boy's could work but I'am not a fan in combining them with 3 kill tanks. Either go big and get the green tide list of get something else.
Mega armour nobs are nice but not very fast. Could put them in the kill tanks though.

Also, how can I prevent the Drukhari armies from dancing around me and taking all the objectives?

Any input?

You need to think it from the other side. What should be your gameplane? Ok, you have 3 Killtanks.

Option 1 = you will charge with them and bully in the field. Shooting like hell and charging. This is super effective way how to work with them. To do this right, you need to play them like the blood axe. That is the fact, so I don' t care you have them blue, find the way how to play them as the Blood axe

Than you will have a lot of points in the middle fighting the objectives. In few models without obsec.
So you need some obsec support. Grots and kommandos are fine. One squad of grots is always usefull on home objective to do the actions. Kommandos for 45p super cheap. You have empty fast attack slot, take some stormboyz. Cost more, but can go somewhere. That is a big problem I have with kommandos. You drop them and than nothing… too slow.
And you need some heavy shooting screening backfield to prevent enemy from scoring Scramblers etc. SMGs are right, maybe take even more.
I dont see the point on dragstas, another anti heavy shooting vehicle.

What secondaries will you score? With 3 killtanks marching forward, it should be Dominantion. With a lot of support light inf, you can maybe score Banners in missions with 5-6 objectives. You will struggle to score scramblers, because you will press your opponent into his deploy, low chance to find a space for drop.

You willhave a chance to score Engage. But it' s the same slot like Dominantion.

Maybe take a weirdboy. Put him in the middle between killtanks and cast Psychic ritual with him.

Definitely no boyz in blobs. Spam heavy type of target

So, I'm bored with death guard now and I have a game against Drukhari coming up. The player is decent, but he tends to run off-meta lists - I'm probably going to face those blender HQs but not the full set of dark eldar insanity.

I thought about just running my usual buggy lists, but considering how they plowed through my DG I'm not convinced that buggies can actually hold their own.
Since it's a TTS match I can play pretty much whatever, any suggestions? I'm also down for just running something totally insane like 3x10 flashgits in battlewagons - as long as I stand a fighting chance I'm willing to give it a go.

 Jidmah wrote:
So, I'm bored with death guard now and I have a game against Drukhari coming up. The player is decent, but he tends to run off-meta lists - I'm probably going to face those blender HQs but not the full set of dark eldar insanity.

I thought about just running my usual buggy lists, but considering how they plowed through my DG I'm not convinced that buggies can actually hold their own.
Since it's a TTS match I can play pretty much whatever, any suggestions? I'm also down for just running something totally insane like 3x10 flashgits in battlewagons - as long as I stand a fighting chance I'm willing to give it a go.

what does your buggy list look like? Because i recently got 2KBB, 3 scrapjets and 3 dragstas, and im trying to find the best way to run these units (at least the dragstas and scrapjets).

My list usually somewhat close to this:



Probably not the most powerful list you can build, but I like how it plays and have become good enough at playing it to defeat anything but hard counters without much trouble.

Note that I'm not looking for a way to defeat drukhari, I'm fairly sure that goff tide with mek guns will do a good job at that. I'm looking for something interesting to play.

its funny, i run a heavy vehicle list and people around here think im "playing the meta because ork buggies are strong atm"
And i just give them a blank stare for a moment before saying "Rather i use goff green tide with ghaz?" lol

Buggies are just fun, theyre by no means a cure-all list inclusion. When they get countered oh man it hurts.

 Jidmah wrote:
My list usually somewhat close to this:

Spoiler:

Wartrike
Warboss on Warbike

Trukk boyz
Trukk boyz
Gretchin

5 MANz

3 KBB
2 Scrapjets
2 SJD

Morkanaut w/ KFF

Burna Bommer or Kannon Wagon or Zagzap Wagon

Probably not the most powerful list you can build, but I like how it plays and have become good enough at playing it to defeat anything but hard counters without much trouble.

Note that I'm not looking for a way to defeat drukhari, I'm fairly sure that goff tide with mek guns will do a good job at that. I'm looking for something interesting to play.

interesting.

Thanks.

Ive been running ghaz 88 boyz with str 5 and mek gunz for a while now, and my list is doing well but sometimes i just find it.. sad that ones boys die to fast against dedicated anti horde. And many times the only reason they havent died super hard by turn 1 is because i decided it was worth spending 3 CP on increasing my KFF to 18 inches (the price is too steep imo). surprisingly ive only lost once with it out of my 5 games (today actually) and that was to a salamanders list. It was 66-60 points to him. Sometimes when i see like 30-40 boys die on one turn in the shooting phase, i wonder how the hell i ended up winning.

So to spice up my gameplay and try new things i wanted to try a more mek based army or buggy list. Im also not the fastest player so using 88 boyz alone and a total of around 111 models, makes me a bit slow on the move.

My current buggy list is this:



BW, Gunwagon and warboss on one flank, BW advance forward to delivere MANz and Grots as much forward as possible. Gunwagon follows slower to add Boyz in the mix.

MSJ in the midle keep heads down and waiting for what comes.
KBB makes “shield” in front of MSJ and are eaten by Mortarion and keeps him away of Scrapjets for a while.

Kannonwagon is anywhere he sees the best.

I'm pretty succesfull on TTS with this list right now. Wagons in front makes enemy bussy and holds little bit. Small squads score the points around. Third wagon in the back / on the other flank helps to hold my deploy.

Small variations are common (KFF Mek + 1 more Kommandos vs. Megamek, might is Right vs. Follow me Ladz on motowarboss)