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eternalxfl wrote:

 andysonic1 wrote:
For my WE + Daemons, I'll be playing around with Renegades to create a "tough" deployment zone. I haven't completely given up on my Bloodletter Bombs because the very idea of them is enough to dictate certain moves from my opponent and they're still pretty cheaper, "cheaper" still due to the increased CP I'll be getting. Thinking three battalions, WE + Daemons + Renegades. Renegades have some long / mid range shooting, WE in Rhinos, Flesh Hound screen, Bloodletters deep strike in. Just have to get more bodies on the table than my opponent can shoot off turn one.

Lucky for me my regular opponent is Tau so I'll be able to cut my teeth on the hardest jawbreaker possible.

What options long / mid range shooting options do Renegades have that WE don't?

Seeing as I don't take guns on my World Eaters, 100% more options.

But to be more serious: you're correct that I can take WE legion ranged weaponry like Preds, Havocs, Batteries, and more. My problem with that is they do not benefit from being World Eaters at all. Renegades cost less for more bodies. My current problem isn't that I can't kill big / tough things (Berzerkers, Daemon Prince, and Bloodletters kill these all day long). My current problem is killing chaff and surviving incoming firepower. 165 points of Havocs (1 unit with 4 missile launchers) vs 144 points of Renegade Heavy Weapons Squads (3 units with 6 teams each, all mortars), the Heavy Weapons Squads will deal more damage to chaff per turn, take up a huge portion of my deployment zone, and don't need line of sight. A slight breeze will kill them all, however, but pressing them against my deployment back edge I'm sure they will survive turn one at least. And that's just the start of their forces. I'm thinking about squeezing in a Brigade and then going nuts with the artifacts, deep strike, and other stratagems for my WE + Daemons, but that might be pushing it.

I could always take Plasma Havocs (132 points) or Plasma Chosen + Chainswords (147 points), but I don't need MORE glass cannons, I need bodies to stay on the board until my main force arrives and I need a landing zone cleared for that force. Renegades kill two birds with one stone in that regard.

 andysonic1 wrote:

Seeing as I don't take guns on my World Eaters, 100% more options.

But to be more serious: you're correct that I can take WE legion ranged weaponry like Preds, Havocs, Batteries, and more. My problem with that is they do not benefit from being World Eaters at all. Renegades cost less for more bodies. My current problem isn't that I can't kill big / tough things (Berzerkers, Daemon Prince, and Bloodletters kill these all day long). My current problem is killing chaff and surviving incoming firepower. 165 points of Havocs (1 unit with 4 missile launchers) vs 144 points of Renegade Heavy Weapons Squads (3 units with 6 teams each, all mortars), the Heavy Weapons Squads will deal more damage to chaff per turn, take up a huge portion of my deployment zone, and don't need line of sight. A slight breeze will kill them all, however, but pressing them against my deployment back edge I'm sure they will survive turn one at least. And that's just the start of their forces. I'm thinking about squeezing in a Brigade and then going nuts with the artifacts, deep strike, and other stratagems for my WE + Daemons, but that might be pushing it.

I could always take Plasma Havocs (132 points) or Plasma Chosen + Chainswords (147 points), but I don't need MORE glass cannons, I need bodies to stay on the board until my main force arrives and I need a landing zone cleared for that force. Renegades kill two birds with one stone in that regard.

Ah, R&H, I mistook you for the Renegade legions such as CrimsonSlaughter and such!

Ah, honest mistake when nearly everything has the word Renegade in it. If I was taking Renegades Legion I would take Bikes and run first turn charges to try and eliminate some chaff, but it's waaaay too many points to blow on that.

God chaff is annoying in 8th.

 andysonic1 wrote:
Ah, honest mistake when nearly everything has the word Renegade in it. If I was taking Renegades Legion I would take Bikes and run first turn charges to try and eliminate some chaff, but it's waaaay too many points to blow on that.

God chaff is annoying in 8th.

How are you running the bikes?

was contemplating 3 bikes with flamer flamer combi flamer and 3 combi bolters for large amounts of anti infantry dakka. might want to replace the combi bolters on the bike instead considering renegade running up loses out on the rapid fire weapons.

depending on the situation it could be 12 shots at bs 3 2 shots at bs 4 and 3d6 flamers with 6 wounds on a t5 body, for about a buck.

not terribly shabby?

Honestly I was just thinking about driving them directly into the enemy lines full speed, no extra guns, in MSU. 7 chainsword attacks aren't going to deal much damage (how I long for Hammer of Wrath) but you've got units up in front of the enemy's face. Bikes aren't doing much right now for any legion, might as well be suicide bombers lol.

Mmmmm maybe. i dunno you are spending a decent amount on the t5 and movement.

two flamers already on average do better than the chainswords outside of cover...... it is kinda counter intuitive in that they could just pull the chaff from the front though so its kinda driving me nuts a bit. (but then the chaff could just walk away leaving a relatively easy first blood unit right in front of them possibly...)

also debating converting them out of the new custode bikes since they look way cooler. or just nabbing some outriders from FW or whatever they are called.

Yeah welcome to the hell. At this point I'm about ready to MSU and run up the board full sprint with 200 bodies. Kill me see if I care I'm still coming to get you.

 andysonic1 wrote:
Yeah welcome to the hell. At this point I'm about ready to MSU and run up the board full sprint with 200 bodies. Kill me see if I care I'm still coming to get you.

I have used that strategy before. Pre-daemons codex I ran about 70 bloodletters, 60 cultists, 30 Berzerkers and a load of infantry HQs to buff them. My opponent was admech, and literally could not throw enough dice my way to kill me.

Also, I LOVE Bikers with plasma. An MSU of Chaos Bikers with 2 plasma guns and a combi-plasma on the champ deals a fantastic amount of damage, and mixed with the bike's combi-bolter, you get a loooad of shots too.

I used a 5 man unit Renegade bikers for a bit last year with triple flamers and chainswords that I used to tie up and kill chaff. It worked OK but not great. One thing to keep in mind re bikers is that they do more damage and are more resilient than CSMs except against multi damage weapons.

I am working on a unit of raptors that I plan on footslogging (jetslogging??) with IoW and some plasma pistols. My idea is basically to use them as a close quarters force to reach and clear hard to access objectives.

Does anyone have any more thoughts on summoning now? I still don't really see it working for cc units because Khorne wants its Locus and the banner stratagem. Pinks could work well though because they don't care about being outside 9".

Summoning is the baby brother to a Khorne Daemon detachment. Bloodletters want that Banner / Locus, but 20 of them without those things are still overkill on most units.

I'm more likely to use the Daemon detachment now that Battalions get 5 CP. Pays for that banner, Denziens of the Warp, plus some rerolls. My concern with detachments before was that they compete with Cultists for Tide of Traitors, now not so much. At a minimum, I am going to have 15 CP to play with.

How is everyone feeling about Obliterators with the new beta rules on deep strike? I don't mind a second turn drop, but I feel like it's too easy to keep them 24 inches away from good targets.

Yea for Obliterators I really don't feel like much has changed minus the 2nd turn drop. Ideally you want to cause some backfield commotion for your opponent which may or may not be possible depending on how much work you get done on your first turn, and if there's a landing pad for their deep strike. With their 24" range though I think that in a worst case you still have incentive to drop them in some ruins midfield to throw out some ranged firepower.

 techsoldaten wrote:
Summoning is the baby brother to a Khorne Daemon detachment. Bloodletters want that Banner / Locus, but 20 of them without those things are still overkill on most units.

I'm more likely to use the Daemon detachment now that Battalions get 5 CP. Pays for that banner, Denziens of the Warp, plus some rerolls. My concern with detachments before was that they compete with Cultists for Tide of Traitors, now not so much. At a minimum, I am going to have 15 CP to play with.

How is everyone feeling about Obliterators with the new beta rules on deep strike? I don't mind a second turn drop, but I feel like it's too easy to keep them 24 inches away from good targets.

They're still solid. As many people have said, chaff and screens should be less prevalent now, so you may be able to have better drop zones; people seem to forget, a good T2 deep strike can do a lot of damage. Obliterators also don't need to worry about being in that 9" goldilocks zone to attempt a charge like most DS units.

 Zid wrote:

 techsoldaten wrote:
Summoning is the baby brother to a Khorne Daemon detachment. Bloodletters want that Banner / Locus, but 20 of them without those things are still overkill on most units.

I'm more likely to use the Daemon detachment now that Battalions get 5 CP. Pays for that banner, Denziens of the Warp, plus some rerolls. My concern with detachments before was that they compete with Cultists for Tide of Traitors, now not so much. At a minimum, I am going to have 15 CP to play with.

How is everyone feeling about Obliterators with the new beta rules on deep strike? I don't mind a second turn drop, but I feel like it's too easy to keep them 24 inches away from good targets.

They're still solid. As many people have said, chaff and screens should be less prevalent now, so you may be able to have better drop zones[..]

Actually, thats an interesting thought - maybe with the nerf to Deepstriking, chaff becomes less appealing. Personally i hope so.

With the change to chosen is anybody thinking of running them?

Correct me if im wrong but with the new rules for 2 pts each model you can take 4 combi bolter chainsword chosen per unit. Thats an extra 8 rapid fire shots with the ability to charge after with 3 close combat attacks each. Thinking either running two 5 man squads with this loadout in a rhino or a unit of 10 using forward operatives to position them favourably.
Going to put out lots of shots and still be quite stabby.

fishwaffle2232 wrote:
With the change to chosen is anybody thinking of running them?

Correct me if im wrong but with the new rules for 2 pts each model you can take 4 combi bolter chainsword chosen per unit. Thats an extra 8 rapid fire shots with the ability to charge after with 3 close combat attacks each. Thinking either running two 5 man squads with this loadout in a rhino or a unit of 10 using forward operatives to position them favourably.
Going to put out lots of shots and still be quite stabby.

Can you put 2 individual units inside the same transport vehicle?

I've already dropped nurglings, with the deep strike changes I can just zone out using cultists turn 1.

 Kharneth wrote:

fishwaffle2232 wrote:
With the change to chosen is anybody thinking of running them?

Correct me if im wrong but with the new rules for 2 pts each model you can take 4 combi bolter chainsword chosen per unit. Thats an extra 8 rapid fire shots with the ability to charge after with 3 close combat attacks each. Thinking either running two 5 man squads with this loadout in a rhino or a unit of 10 using forward operatives to position them favourably.
Going to put out lots of shots and still be quite stabby.

Can you put 2 individual units inside the same transport vehicle?

You should be able to - lord knows that's what I've been doing in all the games I've played. I've not seen anything, or anyone, that's said otherwise.

 EverlastingNewb wrote:

 Zid wrote:

 techsoldaten wrote:
Summoning is the baby brother to a Khorne Daemon detachment. Bloodletters want that Banner / Locus, but 20 of them without those things are still overkill on most units.

I'm more likely to use the Daemon detachment now that Battalions get 5 CP. Pays for that banner, Denziens of the Warp, plus some rerolls. My concern with detachments before was that they compete with Cultists for Tide of Traitors, now not so much. At a minimum, I am going to have 15 CP to play with.

How is everyone feeling about Obliterators with the new beta rules on deep strike? I don't mind a second turn drop, but I feel like it's too easy to keep them 24 inches away from good targets.

They're still solid. As many people have said, chaff and screens should be less prevalent now, so you may be able to have better drop zones[..]

Actually, thats an interesting thought - maybe with the nerf to Deepstriking, chaff becomes less appealing. Personally i hope so.

While I would love to see less chaff, I don't think it's going anywhere. A turn 2 Obliterator deepstrike is just as lethal as a turn 1 deepstrike, you still need to deny them a good spot on the battlefield. Having a turn to move means an additional 6 + d6 inches to their bubble, I think any shooty army would want the chaff doing this while the big guns focus on shooting.

Worked on a new list last night, focused on getting up close with an opponent. A few things I think are going to matter going forward (would love to hear people's thoughts):

- Rhinos. Because they move 12 inches and controlling where your enemy can go is important. They fact they have no offense is unimportant, it's about delivering the occupants.

- Bikers. Because they are going to get up the board fast, fire a lot of shots, then charge. They are our fastest unit and just tough enough to make things hard on opponents.

- Casting Warp Time on units that are already on the board. Warptime can affect any Heretic Astartes unit, including things like Maulerfiends. Chaos is going to want to tie up as many enemy units as it can as quickly as possible.

- Renegades / Black Legion. Being able to advance and charge / shoot is going to be more important than hit modifiers

- Veterans of the Long War, which will get used more often due to getting more command points to begin with.

Khalan wrote:
I've already dropped nurglings, with the deep strike changes I can just zone out using cultists turn 1.

"Zone out using cultists turn 1", as in, use tide of traitors to ambush onto your opponents back board edge turn 1? If so, I believe part of the Big rulebook FAQ ruling (page 6, top right) on this was that any units doing so are treated as reinforcements and thus cannot go outside their deployment zone on turn 1. I could be mistaken though.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 techsoldaten wrote:

While I would love to see less chaff, I don't think it's going anywhere. A turn 2 Obliterator deepstrike is just as lethal as a turn 1 deepstrike, you still need to deny them a good spot on the battlefield. Having a turn to move means an additional 6 + d6 inches to their bubble, I think any shooty army would want the chaff doing this while the big guns focus on shooting.

Worked on a new list last night, focused on getting up close with an opponent. A few things I think are going to matter going forward (would love to hear people's thoughts):

- Rhinos. Because they move 12 inches and controlling where your enemy can go is important. They fact they have no offense is unimportant, it's about delivering the occupants.

- Bikers. Because they are going to get up the board fast, fire a lot of shots, then charge. They are our fastest unit and just tough enough to make things hard on opponents.

- Casting Warp Time on units that are already on the board. Warptime can affect any Heretic Astartes unit, including things like Maulerfiends. Chaos is going to want to tie up as many enemy units as it can as quickly as possible.

- Renegades / Black Legion. Being able to advance and charge / shoot is going to be more important than hit modifiers

- Veterans of the Long War, which will get used more often due to getting more command points to begin with.

I'm on the fence with Rhino's right now. I think there's defintely good potential in them, but a smart opponent knows there's juicy bits inside that are probably important. I find that both of my Rhino's rarely make it past turn 2 (even with them blasting smokes and advance) which leaves my berserkers and plasma havoks in very precarious situations.

fishwaffle2232 wrote:
With the change to chosen is anybody thinking of running them?

Correct me if im wrong but with the new rules for 2 pts each model you can take 4 combi bolter chainsword chosen per unit. Thats an extra 8 rapid fire shots with the ability to charge after with 3 close combat attacks each. Thinking either running two 5 man squads with this loadout in a rhino or a unit of 10 using forward operatives to position them favourably.
Going to put out lots of shots and still be quite stabby.

I really like the idea behind Chosen and have been thinking about how to get them to work. I think you are right that they are best with combi-bolters and chainswords for a highly offensive unit. Remember that you can have your champ swap their bolter for a combi-bolter as well, so you can have 2 5 man units in a rhino that comes to 40 bolter shots at close range. Of course, you could already do this before but now you have an extra attack to back it up.

@techsoldaten I think you are onto something good here. Rhinos are really tough for their points and if you have enough of them at least a couple will reach your enemy in tact. I think Raptors or WTs will still work with warptime but they might be too fragile so will require testing. However, I'm not sold on the Black Legion tactic because you don't get your double shots at half range if you advance, whereas most assault weapons have twice the shots to compensate for not being rapid fire.

With the changes in mind, do you think Heldrakes - i.e. 2+ - would be viable as a Turn1 tie-up charge or go for bikes with Special Weapon & Chainsword instead?

 EverlastingNewb wrote:
With the changes in mind, do you think Heldrakes - i.e. 2+ - would be viable as a Turn1 tie-up charge or go for bikes with Special Weapon & Chainsword instead?

It's tough, it's so conditional. Heldrakes are winner hands down on movement. They've also got a 5+ invuln and toughness value of 7. Playing any of the missions that have you running down the length of the board might be tough for a turn 1 charge. But any of the missions having you fly across the short span would definitely be viable for a first turn charge. The other question you get into is, how likely is my opponent to try and shoot down this tough 7 beastie? I'd say a smart opponent would put a priority tag on it, but then it depends on what other threats you have. Every turn the heldrake is alive and kicking is another turn for your units to get where they need to be. If you've got the space and points for 2 Heldrakes, I think that could be a solid bet.

Bikers can be taken in numbers and dodge and weave into LOS blocking cover, they're also easier to take out at tough 5 ( I think that's the toughness..). It's nice that they can be kitted with Plasma or melta, but if I bring bikers then I'm expecting them to die. Hopefully they can tie up some units before they do so though.

Unfortunately, I do not have experience with either of these units so it's all speculation.

I’m legit looking at the Termite.

Deepstrikes are delayed and that kinda bites, but it would be a great delivery system for some cult marines to park on an Objective I feel

eternalxfl wrote:

 EverlastingNewb wrote:
With the changes in mind, do you think Heldrakes - i.e. 2+ - would be viable as a Turn1 tie-up charge or go for bikes with Special Weapon & Chainsword instead?

It's tough, it's so conditional. Heldrakes are winner hands down on movement. They've also got a 5+ invuln and toughness value of 7. Playing any of the missions that have you running down the length of the board might be tough for a turn 1 charge. But any of the missions having you fly across the short span would definitely be viable for a first turn charge. The other question you get into is, how likely is my opponent to try and shoot down this tough 7 beastie? I'd say a smart opponent would put a priority tag on it, but then it depends on what other threats you have. Every turn the heldrake is alive and kicking is another turn for your units to get where they need to be. If you've got the space and points for 2 Heldrakes, I think that could be a solid bet.

Bikers can be taken in numbers and dodge and weave into LOS blocking cover, they're also easier to take out at tough 5 ( I think that's the toughness..). It's nice that they can be kitted with Plasma or melta, but if I bring bikers then I'm expecting them to die. Hopefully they can tie up some units before they do so though.

Unfortunately, I do not have experience with either of these units so it's all speculation.

Id say avoid the bikes unless you are running renegades. 14" of 24" (on average) is going to require you to roll that hot 10 on the charge. while with renegades you are getting a bonus 6". its also like 50 points cheaper to run a unit of 3 to do tie up work. and sure you could warp time them but i think there are way better choices to throw that on.... usually.

otherwise hands down heldrakes are better for everyone else.

 Iur_tae_mont wrote:
I’m legit looking at the Termite.

Deepstrikes are delayed and that kinda bites, but it would be a great delivery system for some cult marines to park on an Objective I feel

The best thing for them to do is deliver Noise Marines or Combi-Bolter Chosen T2 as close to the opponent's deployment zone as possible and unload everything.

You COULD do T1 if your opponent is braindead and basically has no screeners or anything. However both units can be cheap enough that I think you'd be fine.

 Desubot wrote:

eternalxfl wrote:

 EverlastingNewb wrote:
With the changes in mind, do you think Heldrakes - i.e. 2+ - would be viable as a Turn1 tie-up charge or go for bikes with Special Weapon & Chainsword instead?

It's tough, it's so conditional. Heldrakes are winner hands down on movement. They've also got a 5+ invuln and toughness value of 7. Playing any of the missions that have you running down the length of the board might be tough for a turn 1 charge. But any of the missions having you fly across the short span would definitely be viable for a first turn charge. The other question you get into is, how likely is my opponent to try and shoot down this tough 7 beastie? I'd say a smart opponent would put a priority tag on it, but then it depends on what other threats you have. Every turn the heldrake is alive and kicking is another turn for your units to get where they need to be. If you've got the space and points for 2 Heldrakes, I think that could be a solid bet.

Bikers can be taken in numbers and dodge and weave into LOS blocking cover, they're also easier to take out at tough 5 ( I think that's the toughness..). It's nice that they can be kitted with Plasma or melta, but if I bring bikers then I'm expecting them to die. Hopefully they can tie up some units before they do so though.

Unfortunately, I do not have experience with either of these units so it's all speculation.

Id say avoid the bikes unless you are running renegades. 14" of 24" (on average) is going to require you to roll that hot 10 on the charge. while with renegades you are getting a bonus 6". its also like 50 points cheaper to run a unit of 3 to do tie up work. and sure you could warp time them but i think there are way better choices to throw that on.... usually.

otherwise hands down heldrakes are better for everyone else.

That's why I didn't list Heldrakes to begin with.

Heldrakes are fast, bikers are cheap. Bikers may not have all the movement, but I'm not entirely sure they actually need to make a charge. I think they need to be in position to make a charge, and soak up some fire that would be directed at other units. They are a little more resilient than other CSM units, even 40-man Cultist squads are going to have a hard time putting them down.

Good players are still going to bubblewrap their armies. Bikers are not going to be trying up the Riptides, or even the Fire Warriors. They are going to be tying up the Kroot.

So I've been talking over something with a fellow chaos buddy of mine. This FAQ might finally be the proverbial whisper that broke the loyalists soul to get me to finally start summoning. I cannot find anything that even remotely suggest that summoning is the same as arriving from tactical reserve, even in the beta faq nonsense. So deploy a CHAOS CHARACTER last, just behind a frontline unit while allowing a full 12" summon, i.e. can land as close to an enemy as possible. Have at least a daemon patrol detatchment, though that extra 5CP is making me khorny for a double battallion... *excited angry noises*. Anyhoo, use the soul sacrifice stratagem (even CSM can do this. Only thing the FAQ restricted was using daemon keyword stratagems on non Chaos Daemons units). 4d6, with a possible extra cp to reroll to hit 17. Not only does this net extra movement for GUO and Skarbrand, but it also saves them from t1 shooting, and further allows a t1 assault, especially with Thirsters/Skarbrand due to locus. Take it a step further, and use Alpha Legion to infiltrate, then summon a GUO/D-Thirster/KoS into your opponent's backfield. Or for cheap summon fodder use R&H commanders in a supreme command detatchment as summoning fodder. Could we finally see a return of summoning to at least a plausible strategy to get our big punchy daemons upfield without having to soak a round or two of lascannons and earthshakers?

Personal experience, helldrakes rock hard. They just do. Give it a baldflamer, take 2, and a smart opponent will try and crush them first off. Now they are even stronger. I also like the idea of Renegade bikes and choosen with combi bolters and chainswords in rhinos. So many options to just bring the pain.

How do you guys handle IG? They have cheap fodder and their shooting is deadlier than ours. In fact, their artillery don't even need line of sight. So, you can't get into their deployment zone (and the new FAQ don't let you deepstrike in there anyway). And by the time you try and fight through the fodder, you would be shot to death.

And they have so many command points because battalions can give 5 apiece and its so cheap for them to form a battalion. They can use so many strategems all the time now.

I run renegades alongside my Iron Warriors, partly because I loved Storm of Iron and Dead Sky, Black Sun.

But other than my horrible taste in books, renegades bring in mostly slightly worse versions of the same stuff IG bring. Fight Artillery with Artillery.