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Made in gb
Enginseer with a Wrench





 Olthannon wrote:
I'd like the new codex to mean that you don't have to pick Cawl if you want to get anywhere.


If Master Archon/Succubus/Haemonculus is anything to go by we might get an Arch Magos upgrade option, I'm never a fan of named characters with no generic equivalent. Especially when they're tied to faction keywords. Named versions should provide the same fundamental battlefield role but offer flavourful alternative that suits the faction.
   
Made in us
Quick-fingered Warlord Moderatus






 Thairne wrote:
Yeah if you add 270 pts to it
You gotta give that to the Tau too then, otherwise its a bit shrewd

Well, right now, you're going to take Cawl if you're going Mars anyway. Just like you're going to take Shadowsun if you play Tau. The difference is that Shadowsun does not benefit Fire Warriors nearly as much as Cawl just incidentally benefits Rangers by just existing.

 Thairne wrote:
And yes, while the new fully buffed profile under optimal circumstances is probaby the best troop weapon in the game - is that enough reason to spam it tho?

Uh... yes? Lol. They're cheap, they are efficient, they have ObSec... what is not to love? Every army that has efficient troop choices seems to spam them. Why would you expect us to be different?

 Thairne wrote:
Because it takes, with Cawl and the canticle, 17 rangers (153 pts) to kill 5 MEQ out of cover or 25,5 rangers (230 pts) if the MEQ are in cover. Thats a lot of points.. not even considering gravis here. And thats not very efficient.

Against T3 the S increase doesnt matter and the -1 AP most of the time doesnt either since harlequins e.g. have an invul to fall back to anyway. Dunno about Drukhari, but all in all their shooting is still inefficient, points wise. Especially considering how easy they keel over themselves, how immobile they are and what other options we have.

Again, Cawl is a sunk cost. And I don't think spamming Rangers would be efficient to kill Marines. Better to just hold ground with lots of MSUs and let your planes and heavy guns do the work for you. Which is the meta as of this very moment anyway. Many popular lists seem to gravitate toward spamming infantry and/or planes.
   
Made in de
[DCM]
Aspirant Tech-Adept






They are not that durable tho. Compared to the almighty MEQ, you pay the same pts per wound, but at a worse s+ and worse T.

Maybe I've my glasses coloured in anti-skitarii layers since my last game where spamming skitarii led to a T2 defeat..:
What do you consider "spamming" though? Taking MSU rangers as troops to fulfill batt/brig - thats naturally a good thing because they are the most efficient troops in firepower. But if you spam them, which for me means like.. 30 or more, I feel it detriments heavily from everything else because they do not hold your back objective if you dont give the opponent with actual teeth to worry about.

Data author of DA/AdM on Battlescribe
Report bugs here:
https://github.com/BSData/wh40k/issues 
   
Made in us
Quick-fingered Warlord Moderatus






It would depend on the rules. My guess is 6-12 units of 5. But who knows? Maybe they have have incentives for units of 10.

I don't think MEQs are actually that popular though. And instead of comparing Skitarii to MEQS, why not another infantry unit like Necron Warriors? They are T4 and have the Reanimation gimmick, but strictly inferior guns.
   
Made in us
Big Mek in Kustom Dragster with Soopa-Gun





Nebraska, USA

Other than some fluffmongers i dont know a single marine player that brings more than the absolute minimum troop-grade marines, with the new heavy intercessors being the only exception and even then its like 1 more squad than you absolutely need to play. Except when a certain doctrine is active they dont really do anything anyway, 5-10 bolters is not threatening at all at their price level.
They just spam the more elite ones, which cannot compare to any trooper let alone ours.

So comparing anything to a MEQ is kinda pointless (posterchild syndrome aside as well)

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2021/04/30 01:02:44


An ork with an idea tends to end with a bang.

14000pts Big 'n Bad Orkz
6000pts Admech/Knights
7500pts Necron Goldboys 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




It was a big mistake of GW's to hand out obsec like candy to non-troops.
   
Made in us
Quick-fingered Warlord Moderatus






yukishiro1 wrote:
It was a big mistake of GW's to hand out obsec like candy to non-troops.

IMO, ObSec should not be a thing for normal units. It should only be for characters, flag-bearers, and super-heavies.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/04/30 03:37:12


 
   
Made in de
[DCM]
Aspirant Tech-Adept






Well, I just bow to your far, far superior experience and skill and take what you say as truth.
I can't imagine it working out, but thats probably me not playing right/not seeing the things in the right way/building bad lists. So far I'm just avoiding skitarii if I can because they dont kill stuff, they dont defend stuff, they cant screen stuff and obj sec doesnt matter if you're dead anyway.

Come to think of it, I'm currently planning to basically get close to completion of my admech army and have a new 1500 pts tac list I'm building towards. Not hyper competetive, but something I feel has enough teeth to not be pushed over by most non-tourney-netlists you'd see.

Spoiler:

++ Battalion Detachment 11CP (Imperium - Adeptus Mechanicus) ++

Forge World Choice
. Forge World: Stygies VIII
+ HQ +

Tech-Priest Dominus: Macrostubber, Relic: Autocaduceus of Arkhan Land, Volkite Blaster, Warlord, Warlord Trait (Engine War): Divinations of the Magos

Tech-Priest Manipulus: Magnarail lance, Mechanicus Locum, Warlord Trait (Codex 1): Monitor Malevolus

+ Troops +

Kataphron Breachers
. Kataphron Breacher: Arc Claw, Heavy Arc Rifle
. Kataphron Breacher: Arc Claw, Heavy Arc Rifle
. Kataphron Breacher: Arc Claw, Heavy Arc Rifle

Kataphron Breachers
. Kataphron Breacher: Arc Claw, Heavy Arc Rifle
. Kataphron Breacher: Arc Claw, Heavy Arc Rifle
. Kataphron Breacher: Arc Claw, Heavy Arc Rifle

Skitarii Vanguards
. 4x Skitarii Vanguard: 4x Radium Carbine
. Vanguard Alpha: Radium Carbine

Skitarii Vanguards
. 4x Skitarii Vanguard: 4x Radium Carbine
. Vanguard Alpha: Radium Carbine

+ Elites +

Fulgurite Electro-Priests
. 5x Fulgurite Electro-Priest: 5x Electroleech Stave

Fulgurite Electro-Priests
. 5x Fulgurite Electro-Priest: 5x Electroleech Stave

+ Fast Attack +

Ironstrider Ballistarii
. Ironstrider Ballistarius: Twin Cognis Autocannon
. Ironstrider Ballistarius: Twin Cognis Autocannon

+ Heavy Support +

Kastelan Robots
. Kastelan Robot: Heavy Phosphor Blaster
. . Two Heavy Phosphor Blasters: 2x Heavy Phosphor Blaster
. Kastelan Robot: Heavy Phosphor Blaster
. . Two Heavy Phosphor Blasters: 2x Heavy Phosphor Blaster

Skorpius Disintegrator: Belleros Energy Cannon

Skorpius Disintegrator: Belleros Energy Cannon

+ Dedicated Transport +

Skorpius Dunerider

Skorpius Dunerider


Not optimal, but at 1500pts I think I have all that I need with this. Assault package, non-LOS shooting, anti tank, anti infantry, screening in form of the Phrons...
2k would see more priests, a fusilave, Destroyers instead of vanguard and more Balistarii added - or a switch to Mars with Cawl for the real pain.

Data author of DA/AdM on Battlescribe
Report bugs here:
https://github.com/BSData/wh40k/issues 
   
Made in us
Quick-fingered Warlord Moderatus






Skitarii do sorta suck right now, though they are used in Stygies/Lucius infantry spam lists. I think Hertel's recent list was basically three units of Vanguard, one of Corpuscarii, and two of Fulgurites.

And really, I expect things to change with the new codex. I am just saying that if nothing changes, and they only ADD to Skitarii capability, then spamming Ranger MSUs might be a thing. The infantry in plenty of armies have gotten huge buffs. (But who knows? Maybe Kataphrons or Electro-Priests will get even bigger buffs.)
   
Made in gb
Cog in the Machine





I tried a 1000 pts game on Sunday with 35 skitarii and 10 breachers. end of t2 I was way ahead however due to the immense lack of durability skitarii have I was tabled on t4 and had about half the points of my opponent. This was a friendly game to test out how a ObSec heavy list would play against a regular list.

Approx armies
6000pts AdMech (Main army)
6000pts Black Templars (original army)
3500pts Death Guard (lazy side project)
2000pts Imperial Knights (extension of AdMech)
1500pts Harlequins (fun side project)
 
   
Made in gb
Cog in the Machine





Kataphron box leaks! breachers have a 2+ and destroyers a 3+

https://www.reddit.com/r/AdeptusMechanicus/comments/n7ufy0/kataphron_boxed_rules/

Approx armies
6000pts AdMech (Main army)
6000pts Black Templars (original army)
3500pts Death Guard (lazy side project)
2000pts Imperial Knights (extension of AdMech)
1500pts Harlequins (fun side project)
 
   
Made in gb
Enginseer with a Wrench







They both have 3 attacks now too and up to movement of 6". The breacher melee weapons are immense too, essentially arc claw is a power sword and hydraulic claw a thunder hammer!?
6" on phosphor blaster too. it's a nice overall buff. Plasma is still plasma, Grav is still grav. Torsion is still a long range melta-lite. Just need to see what support rules they get now.

Spoiler:


edit: image was huge!

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/05/09 00:03:52


 
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




If Shroudpsalm is still in the book in a similar form, Kataphrons are going to be nuts, even if all the engine war stuff stays gone.
   
Made in gb
Enginseer with a Wrench





Its also interesting that all the arc ranged weapons have a more standardised profile now. All of them seem to be str 6 ap -2.

The Heavy arc is 2 dmg base now vs the D3 of the arc rifle, but that works as it's an average of the old D3. I just wonder what it gets for it's vehicle dmg upgrade. The arc rifle being D3 base and 3 dmg against vehicles means the heavy version starting at flat 2 dmg has no dice roll to max out on. Hopefully it's 2+D6, 2 + D3 feels odd and underwhleming compared to the arc rifle. Even if it went to flat 4, that would be good, but doesnt feel like much of an improvement over the arc rifle.

Flat 6...now thats the dream right there. Or maybe it's 2 + D3 MW? Hmm.
   
Made in us
Roarin' Runtherd




Octovol wrote:
Its also interesting that all the arc ranged weapons have a more standardised profile now. All of them seem to be str 6 ap -2.

The Heavy arc is 2 dmg base now vs the D3 of the arc rifle, but that works as it's an average of the old D3. I just wonder what it gets for it's vehicle dmg upgrade. The arc rifle being D3 base and 3 dmg against vehicles means the heavy version starting at flat 2 dmg has no dice roll to max out on. Hopefully it's 2+D6, 2 + D3 feels odd and underwhleming compared to the arc rifle. Even if it went to flat 4, that would be good, but doesnt feel like much of an improvement over the arc rifle.

Flat 6...now thats the dream right there. Or maybe it's 2 + D3 MW? Hmm.


I wonder if the Arc weapons will retain their mortal wounds on 6 to wound, but in the case of the heavy arc rifle, they may just have it double its damage to 4 against vehicles.
   
Made in be
Mysterious Techpriest





Belgium

Their profiles were previewed a few months ago:

Spoiler:


I don't remember Arc Weapons dealing MWs on 6s ?

40K: Adeptus Mechanicus
AoS: Nighthaunts 
   
Made in gb
Enginseer with a Wrench





 Aaranis wrote:
Their profiles were previewed a few months ago:

Spoiler:


I don't remember Arc Weapons dealing MWs on 6s ?


They didn't, they never have. Maybe they're confusing transonic weapons? We're obviously missing a lot of rules text from these datasheets which is key to exactly how useful they'll be a long with what army rules they'll interact with.

Flat 4 dmg on Heavy arc vs vehicles i'm not super keen on, but it does kinda follow thats it's the average on a D6 dmg roll so seems like it would be quite likely. Plus that keeps the pts cost down vs the new lascannons and Torsion.

Two Torsion/HAR breachers with a 2+ save vs 1 chicken (3+ save) with a twin cognis lascannon is actually a pretty tough decision at this point. The twin cognis autocannon however is an awesome crowd thinner, 12 autocannon shots almost makes robots obsolete imo. I do hope they buff robots enough in the right places.
   
Made in be
Mysterious Techpriest





Belgium

As long as they make them worthwhile in CC I'm happy, been playing 4 of them with Fists and Flamers and while they were always useful, there was probably better ways to play the same role.

40K: Adeptus Mechanicus
AoS: Nighthaunts 
   
Made in gb
Enginseer with a Wrench





 Aaranis wrote:
As long as they make them worthwhile in CC I'm happy, been playing 4 of them with Fists and Flamers and while they were always useful, there was probably better ways to play the same role.


It's gonna have to be something special to make them worthwhile in CC, Breachers are now a much better choice. Same attacks, better save, same damage, 1 less ap. OR less damage, same AP but always wound vehicles on a 4+ and probably 2-3 dmg with exploding 5s to hit lol

We'd need Kastellan fists to do double the dmg, more ap or double the number of attacks to even come close to being better lol

Especially when you consider the breacher also gets Either. Torsion cannon or heavy arc rifle as well as all that, both of which i'd take over robots current HPB output. I'd take cognis auto cannon ballistarii for my WoM spam now, for 20pts more than a robot you currently get 12 assault autocannon shots they can fire at full BS in overwatch and with +1 to wound. Robots need some serious love after the teasers we've seen.

Edit: got a little overexcited and wrongly assumed the cognis autocannon was twin at 12 when it's twin at 6 lol

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/05/10 15:21:08


 
   
Made in us
Arch Magos w/ 4 Meg of RAM






Mira Mesa

I'm going a bit stir-crazy waiting for the book. I'm sitting on a couple unassembled kits waiting to see which way the wind blows.

I'd really love to use my Infiltrators again, since they're modeled after the Skitarii Praetorians from the novel Titanicus, which inspired the army in the first place. The fact that we heard about Ruststalkers but not Infiltrators worries me a little. I have a creeping feeling that this is a monkey's paw situation where Infiltrators become the backbone of a Dark Eldar-like dominance and I'll be a jerk for fielding them.

It's weird though: at what price are they worth running again? When you compare them to Reivers and Mandrakes, it looks like GW really values that Power Sword at 5 points per model. I think to be competitive (without changing any stats), they'd have to be brought in line with Mandrakes at 15ish points. I'd even like the Flechette/Taser to be a point cheaper. I'd play them as-is at 18 points, though I wouldn't like it.

   
Made in gb
Enginseer with a Wrench





 DarkHound wrote:
I'm going a bit stir-crazy waiting for the book. I'm sitting on a couple unassembled kits waiting to see which way the wind blows.

I'd really love to use my Infiltrators again, since they're modeled after the Skitarii Praetorians from the novel Titanicus, which inspired the army in the first place. The fact that we heard about Ruststalkers but not Infiltrators worries me a little. I have a creeping feeling that this is a monkey's paw situation where Infiltrators become the backbone of a Dark Eldar-like dominance and I'll be a jerk for fielding them.

It's weird though: at what price are they worth running again? When you compare them to Reivers and Mandrakes, it looks like GW really values that Power Sword at 5 points per model. I think to be competitive (without changing any stats), they'd have to be brought in line with Mandrakes at 15ish points. I'd even like the Flechette/Taser to be a point cheaper. I'd play them as-is at 18 points, though I wouldn't like it.


I dont think i'd take them at all at the moment regardless of points, unless I really liked the models and it was for thematic purposes. Their rules are just not good enough. Skystalkers do their shooting with the same deep strike but with the benefit of awesome bombs as well. Ruststalkers, corpuscarii, Sterylizors all are better in melee with much more utility.

I could see Infiltrators getting that 3rd attack back, same as Destroyers got that extra one. What really needs to change is that aura. And if they could be deployed forward like scouts that would at least give them some utility we dont have elsewhere.
   
Made in be
Mysterious Techpriest





Belgium

Looks like the Belleros is losing one point of Strength:

Spoiler:

40K: Adeptus Mechanicus
AoS: Nighthaunts 
   
Made in gb
Enginseer with a Wrench





 Aaranis wrote:
Looks like the Belleros is losing one point of Strength:

Spoiler:


So I guess their design philosophy for these weapons is they're only meant to take out chaff hidden in ruins or something? Feels like the only consideration that would result in a lowering of str on a weapon like this.

I'm more disappointed the Dunerider didn't go up to T7 to match the disinitigrator. If we look at the DE Raider the Dunerider needs to drop in points considerably.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/05/15 10:17:56


 
   
Made in de
Sagitarius with a Big F'in Gun





Everything needs to drop in points significantly if we compare it to broken undercosted stuff like the raider.

The belleros isnt meant for chaff anymore according to GW as its gotten worse against T3, now its primarily anti T4 multiwound targets without much armor.
However as its our only los ignoring weapon, and the purpose of los ignoring weapons generally being anti glasscannons and units holding objectives behind cover, its gotten considerably worse as its mostly T3 you want to shoot at.
   
Made in de
[DCM]
Aspirant Tech-Adept






So a concerning thought - what happens if almost all our vehicles do not get the CORE keyword and therefore are excempt from rerolls?
A Dominus would be nigh worthless since he could basically buff Skitarii or Kataphrons.
While for the later it would be neat, it feels like the Dominus would be pretty suboptimal. The Manipulus would overtake him significantly, reducing us to basically 1 and a half HQ... again.
What that means for Cawl is another thing tho...

But what would that mean for our tanks? Kastelans without any access to rerolls sans the strats, assuming they stay?
Onagers with their RND shots on the neutron, hitting on 3s with no RR?
Disintegrators with their weakend belleros?
And not to mention las and AC chickens?
Feels like that would be a very significant nerf to the entire army.. making vehicles not CORE in a faction that is basically about machines seems odd. It could be a net loss of 16-33% of our shooting efficiency... thats not something a +1 sv can catch up.


Data author of DA/AdM on Battlescribe
Report bugs here:
https://github.com/BSData/wh40k/issues 
   
Made in de
Sagitarius with a Big F'in Gun





Core was meant to limit lists that go against the fluff and the way GW wants an army to play, main offender being the space marine captain buffing their vehicles ( lmao almost everything else has core including dreadnoughts).

Admech wont have any core keyword. It wouldnt make sense for many reasons. First of all our Techpriests are one of the few that should be able to buff vehicles and weve got enough keywords that separate our factions and rules interplay as is. Cybernetica, Vehicles, Infantry, Skitarii, Cult, Tech-priest.
   
Made in de
[DCM]
Aspirant Tech-Adept






Your argument makes sense to me. It would be unnecessary and against the fluff... I mean I could see edge cases like Kastelan being excluded but for the sole purpose of having a use for Datasmiths.

Lets hope they dont, but is there a 9th that does not make use of CORE? All the SM ones do, naturally, Necrons do, Drukhari do, DG do, Sisters will.... I dont see them sparing us the CORE nerf.
I am quite worried right now that that change alone might break the army.
I could see however bringing in the Marshal for SKITARII units and using TPs for all other units.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/05/15 17:59:15


Data author of DA/AdM on Battlescribe
Report bugs here:
https://github.com/BSData/wh40k/issues 
   
Made in us
Quick-fingered Warlord Moderatus






 Aaranis wrote:
Looks like the Belleros is losing one point of Strength:

Spoiler:

Right now, with DE running rampant in top tables, running Icarus Crawlers is the tech play.
   
Made in gb
Enginseer with a Wrench





How did we get to being so worried that our vehicles won't get re-rolls? 8th-9th is about increasing output and offering MORE options for different play styles, making less useful units more useful.

I guess if vehicles didn't get as many options for re-rolls but our infantry became more lethal, both melee and shooting, then that balances out and overall we just become better at everything.

Lets be honest here, robots and kataphrons aside, every single other unit we have is either hitting on 2s or re-rolling everything at the moment. We have virtually no trouble hitting things, our struggles come in battlefield options and flexibility. Even if all our vehicles lost re-rolls that only hits robots, everything else still has enough options to still hit on 2s regardless.

I've seen enough batreps of DE to have an understanding that facing them now is just like facing them in 8th, they die real easy and can get to where they need to be to get their primary and secondaries. That hasn't changed. What has changed, abusive rules-loopholes aside, is that now once they get to you they can actually do some damage like they were always supposed to.

Our challenge has never been killing them, we can do that easy. What we struggle with is overcoming their oppressive battlefield positioning. You really gotta be smart about which targets you kill. We already kill them easy with our 8th stuff and we're set to be even more lethal and damaging in 9th? Yeah killing them is not the issue.
   
Made in gb
Stabbin' Skarboy





crewe

 Thairne wrote:
So a concerning thought - what happens if almost all our vehicles do not get the CORE keyword and therefore are excempt from rerolls?
A Dominus would be nigh worthless since he could basically buff Skitarii or Kataphrons.
While for the later it would be neat, it feels like the Dominus would be pretty suboptimal. The Manipulus would overtake him significantly, reducing us to basically 1 and a half HQ... again.
What that means for Cawl is another thing tho...

But what would that mean for our tanks? Kastelans without any access to rerolls sans the strats, assuming they stay?
Onagers with their RND shots on the neutron, hitting on 3s with no RR?
Disintegrators with their weakend belleros?
And not to mention las and AC chickens?
Feels like that would be a very significant nerf to the entire army.. making vehicles not CORE in a faction that is basically about machines seems odd. It could be a net loss of 16-33% of our shooting efficiency... thats not something a +1 sv can catch up.



Maybe Dominus do more that just reroll 1s to hit in shooting like they should do? He can mess around with Machine Spirits in the lore yet hes a worse Captain/Canoness


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Thairne wrote:
Your argument makes sense to me. It would be unnecessary and against the fluff... I mean I could see edge cases like Kastelan being excluded but for the sole purpose of having a use for Datasmiths.

Lets hope they dont, but is there a 9th that does not make use of CORE? All the SM ones do, naturally, Necrons do, Drukhari do, DG do, Sisters will.... I dont see them sparing us the CORE nerf.
I am quite worried right now that that change alone might break the army.
I could see however bringing in the Marshal for SKITARII units and using TPs for all other units.



It think some vehicles will be core, Ballistarii/Dragoons and Onagers. Onagers have always been described as the backbone workhorse of the army where data is collected and beamed back into orbit and data from the fleet is sent back down and distributed by the Onager. Seems pretty key to the Admech war machine.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/05/16 11:51:52


How many kans can a killa kan kill if a killa kan can kill kans?  
   
 
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