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I was having a conversation about broken and unfair rules at my FLGS yesterday. One guy said that Games Workshop once said this
"We are a Modeling company, Not a game company"
Know from GW this doesnt sound to far fetched for them to say it. But can anyone verify this or not?

Yes they did. And they've been saying it for nigh on 30 years now. Their games are a means to sell their miniatures, nothing more.

And yet strangely they feel compelled to charge vast sums of money for their rules and army books

Dont forget the templates (blast markers etc).

im not sure if there trying to say that there a model hobby shop rather than a video gaming shop, that may be why there a hobby shop, but then again...

GW's to confusing lol

Flashman wrote:And yet strangely they feel compelled to charge vast sums of money for their rules and army books

Everything you know is a lie

I always found that line to be bs. They wouldn't sell nearly as many models if there weren't a game to use them in. No one's going to buy $1000 armies just so they can sit on a shelf and look pretty.

hotsauceman1 wrote:I was having a conversation about broken and unfair rules at my FLGS yesterday. One guy said that Games Workshop once said this
"We are a Modeling company, Not a game company"
Know from GW this doesnt sound to far fetched for them to say it. But can anyone verify this or not?

Yes, that is there offical stance on it. We are in the business of selling Toy Solders to kids. This is their business plan and has been since the managment buy out in 1991 ( I think it was 91 please correct me if I am wrong).

The rules are just there to sell more models. But according to the Higher-up's in the company 80% of people who buy the figgies just buy them to collect not play the games with. I call total BS on that but well if they want to believe the sky is green they can doesn't mean it's true just what they think/believe.

Sad but true.

It is a hobby first, a game second.

What is the Games Workshop Hobby all about?

Games Workshop is a company that makes and sells games and the models for them, and Warhammer, the Game of Fantasy Battles is just one of them.

Our games, Warhammer included, are table top battle games. You take command of an army of miniature models representing your soldiers, war machines and heroes and lead them into battle against an opponent, the table (or indeed floor) representing the battlefield. Using dice you decide the outcome of the fighting across the field of battle, leading your troops to victory. However its more than just a game, many enthusiasts enjoy collecting, modelling, and painting the models just as much, or more, than gaming with them. The Games Workshop
Hobby provides hours of enjoyment and a healthy amount of good plain fun!


That's from their web site

Sidstyler wrote:I always found that line to be bs. They wouldn't sell nearly as many models if there weren't a game to use them in. No one's going to buy $1000 armies just so they can sit on a shelf and look pretty.

That is what i am doing. I'm collecting a 4000+ point chaos space marines army to display

Miniature company first.
Games company last.

And there's a lot of stuff in between those two.

If you sell £90M of miniatures a year and £20M of games and books, then i guess you are a miniatures manufacturer.

I don't think it is anymore sinister than that.

hotsauceman1 wrote:One guy said that Games Workshop once said this "We are a Modeling company, Not a game company"

That was Tom Kirby - he used to run Citadel Miniatures until he bought out Steve and Ian to have full control of GW (and he remains the chairman).

The current CEO - Mark Wells - has said (in the annual reports):
"The games are a key part of both our hobby and our business model. Our games are played between people present in a room (a Hobby centre, a club, a
school), not with a screen. Our games are truly social and build a real sense of community and comradeship. This again makes good business sense. The
more fun and enjoyable we make our games, the more customers we attract and retain, and the more miniatures our customers want to buy. This in turn
allows us to reinvest in making more and more exciting miniatures and games, which creates a virtuous circle for all."

Since Mark took the CEO position the rules have generally become stronger, imo.

Has anyone noticed that the life and soul of a visit to Games Workshop friendly like minded conversation with gamers has fallen through as well? As to what Games Workshop saids about being a Miniature Company and not a Games Company is ludicrous one time GW wasnt a money hungry beast whose staff harassed you to buy stuff before they ever spoke to you back in the day it was all about rules debates and tactics where a game was followed by what you did wrong and right then purchases were suggested to improve your gameplay and overall games experience.

Its a disturbing trend I have noticed evolving over the years where everything is based on sales and not customer experience... But I suppose that was my memory of things and my perspective but I have definately noticed that something is lacking.But to say its solely about mini's and not games is silly because people play games and expect GW's support in both the rules and updates given I know Forgeworld is a seperate entity but if the statement is to be heard right then why bring out all the Imperial Armour supplements and Codexs? plus White Dwarf?.

If what said is true I demand Games Workshop changes its name.

Scott-S6 wrote:

hotsauceman1 wrote:One guy said that Games Workshop once said this "We are a Modeling company, Not a game company"

That was Tom Kirby - he used to run Citadel Miniatures until he bought out Steve and Ian to have full control of GW (and he remains the chairman).

The current CEO - Mark Wells - has said (in the annual reports):
"The games are a key part of both our hobby and our business model. Our games are played between people present in a room (a Hobby centre, a club, a
school), not with a screen. Our games are truly social and build a real sense of community and comradeship. This again makes good business sense. The
more fun and enjoyable we make our games, the more customers we attract and retain, and the more miniatures our customers want to buy. This in turn
allows us to reinvest in making more and more exciting miniatures and games, which creates a virtuous circle for all."

Since Mark took the CEO position the rules have generally become stronger, imo.

What comradeship only comradeship I see nowadays (In the hobby sense) is between groups of friends and clubs if you expect comradeship in GW stores its like expecting a kick in the teeth that is after the bully took your dinner money...

Flashman wrote:And yet strangely they feel compelled to charge vast sums of money for their rules and army books

I'm not saying this is how it should be, just how it is but from GW's perspective the rules and books are secondary to the miniatures. That said selling large quantities of either really doesn't interest them; manufacturing the books in house doesn't interest them. They subcontract the printing and they don't care about the cost of these as much, just their margin. So they make them at the price it costs and then sell it for whatever it takes to make enough to payback on their investment. GW is only pricing conscious about the things they are worried about selling enough of, not the the things they know they will.

ArchaonSon wrote:What comradeship only comradeship I see nowadays (In the hobby sense) is between groups of friends and clubs if you expect comradeship in GW stores its like expecting a kick in the teeth that is after the bully took your dinner money...

I have only been to gw once. And i went out of my way to go there. And it was just no that inviting. Nothing but a big shelf and two tables. And no lighting. But i was with a parent so they didnt bother me because they knew i was there to buy.

hotsauceman1 wrote:

ArchaonSon wrote:What comradeship only comradeship I see nowadays (In the hobby sense) is between groups of friends and clubs if you expect comradeship in GW stores its like expecting a kick in the teeth that is after the bully took your dinner money...

I have only been to gw once. And i went out of my way to go there. And it was just no that inviting. Nothing but a big shelf and two tables. And no lighting. But i was with a parent so they didnt bother me because they knew i was there to buy.

From the start of the hobby right up from the early ninties when I got into it right up to mid 2003. The stores were awesome you could just go in and talk about anything at all you struck up friendships with staff members and regulars the games nights were always good and the events were brilliant. The last event that really caught my eye was Apocalypse the rest have sucked I just go in now buy my minatures and bug out because as a social catalyst the stores are dead all it is now is cash peddling.

I have to say it rather than a hobby it has now become a "Must have" for kids and wide eyed squeely kids are what keeps the money wheel turning who cant paint for s**t and always want more and more GW has become a Pokemon for the masses now and its just plain sad.

I know I have riled a few people up and I apologise for it.

ArchaonSon wrote:

hotsauceman1 wrote:

ArchaonSon wrote:What comradeship only comradeship I see nowadays (In the hobby sense) is between groups of friends and clubs if you expect comradeship in GW stores its like expecting a kick in the teeth that is after the bully took your dinner money...

I have only been to gw once. And i went out of my way to go there. And it was just no that inviting. Nothing but a big shelf and two tables. And no lighting. But i was with a parent so they didnt bother me because they knew i was there to buy.

From the start of the hobby right up from the early ninties when I got into it right up to mid 2003. The stores were awesome you could just go in and talk about anything at all you struck up friendships with staff members and regulars the games nights were always good and the events were brilliant. The last event that really caught my eye was Apocalypse the rest have sucked I just go in now buy my minatures and bug out because as a social catalyst the stores are dead all it is now is cash peddling.

I have to say it rather than a hobby it has now become a "Must have" for kids and wide eyed squeely kids are what keeps the money wheel turning who cant paint for s**t and always want more and more GW has become a Pokemon for the masses now and its just plain sad.

I know I have riled a few people up and I apologise for it.

It was like pokemon for me at the beggining. Buying and churning out badly painted minies. But i the started to paint alot more and find it enjoyable. It was the same with video games. I think its kinda you wade through that garbage of players to find the gem.

FabricatorGeneralMike wrote:
The rules are just there to sell more models. But according to the Higher-up's in the company 80% of people who buy the figgies just buy them to collect not play the games with. I call total BS on that but well if they want to believe the sky is green they can doesn't mean it's true just what they think/believe.

You never know. If the models played at tournaments are exactly what's
sold in any given period of time, then GW would have gone out of
business a long time ago. There are people out there who don't make
time to play the games. People who play the games seek each other
out, so maybe that's why we think there are more of them.

I don't know. Maybe ask a store owner you trust what they can tell
from their sales. Are most of their sales made to players of the
games? Or is there a large, silent majority group of people who
just buy models to buy them?

hotsauceman1 wrote:

ArchaonSon wrote:

hotsauceman1 wrote:

ArchaonSon wrote:What comradeship only comradeship I see nowadays (In the hobby sense) is between groups of friends and clubs if you expect comradeship in GW stores its like expecting a kick in the teeth that is after the bully took your dinner money...

I have only been to gw once. And i went out of my way to go there. And it was just no that inviting. Nothing but a big shelf and two tables. And no lighting. But i was with a parent so they didnt bother me because they knew i was there to buy.

From the start of the hobby right up from the early ninties when I got into it right up to mid 2003. The stores were awesome you could just go in and talk about anything at all you struck up friendships with staff members and regulars the games nights were always good and the events were brilliant. The last event that really caught my eye was Apocalypse the rest have sucked I just go in now buy my minatures and bug out because as a social catalyst the stores are dead all it is now is cash peddling.

I have to say it rather than a hobby it has now become a "Must have" for kids and wide eyed squeely kids are what keeps the money wheel turning who cant paint for s**t and always want more and more GW has become a Pokemon for the masses now and its just plain sad.

I know I have riled a few people up and I apologise for it.

It was like pokemon for me at the beggining. Buying and churning out badly painted minies. But i the started to paint alot more and find it enjoyable. It was the same with video games. I think its kinda you wade through that garbage of players to find the gem.

I agree there is room for improvement and there are a few that go on to be amazing painters. Oh I dont know I am a old man who longs for the past heheheh who wont go on like a Dinosaur..

ArchaonSon wrote:

hotsauceman1 wrote:

ArchaonSon wrote:

hotsauceman1 wrote:

ArchaonSon wrote:What comradeship only comradeship I see nowadays (In the hobby sense) is between groups of friends and clubs if you expect comradeship in GW stores its like expecting a kick in the teeth that is after the bully took your dinner money...

I have only been to gw once. And i went out of my way to go there. And it was just no that inviting. Nothing but a big shelf and two tables. And no lighting. But i was with a parent so they didnt bother me because they knew i was there to buy.

From the start of the hobby right up from the early ninties when I got into it right up to mid 2003. The stores were awesome you could just go in and talk about anything at all you struck up friendships with staff members and regulars the games nights were always good and the events were brilliant. The last event that really caught my eye was Apocalypse the rest have sucked I just go in now buy my minatures and bug out because as a social catalyst the stores are dead all it is now is cash peddling.

I have to say it rather than a hobby it has now become a "Must have" for kids and wide eyed squeely kids are what keeps the money wheel turning who cant paint for s**t and always want more and more GW has become a Pokemon for the masses now and its just plain sad.

I know I have riled a few people up and I apologise for it.

It was like pokemon for me at the beggining. Buying and churning out badly painted minies. But i the started to paint alot more and find it enjoyable. It was the same with video games. I think its kinda you wade through that garbage of players to find the gem.

I agree there is room for improvement and there are a few that go on to be amazing painters. Oh I dont know I am a old man who longs for the past heheheh who wont go on like a Dinosaur..

I know the feeling, I miss old GW also. But alas it's not the company we are with now, but the memorys of a by-gone era. =o]

Spot on in reguards to your earlier post.. But they didn't like the 'club house' atmosphere because the regulars didn't buy as much as those newer to ' The Hobby'..So they focused on what gave them the best return on their investments.

As far as the stores, I have both GWs and FLGSes around me and I go to both.

The features of a GW store is based on the store you choose. The one I go to is large (4-6 tables) well-lit and very high quality and clean. That said, I know that there are more cramped ones and they are less pleasant to play at. As far as the staff, again it varies from store to store. In my experience, I can still buddy up with the staff at my usual places, and generally the only extra selling they do to me is asking if I need glue or anything if I make a purchase. Sometimes I do, sometimes I don't, either way, I don't get offended or shocked by it.

And as far as the players, amazingly it varies. I know I can get great Fantasy games in my area. 40k is a lot wider spectrum of quality, and ranges from crap to awesome.

Regarding my usual FLGS for Warmachine and the like. It too is an extremely nice place to play, though it has less tables even though the area is larger. This is because of other games and so on taking up space, no big deal. The staff are decent, but they have a tendency to ask me a lot if I want to order anything new, or if they can "put me down" on a new order. It's a nice gesture, but again, I don't let it bother me (surprise!). However, what hurts my FLGS the most is the playerbase. All of them are pretty good players, but they are the WORST of the idiotic GW-hate club, and it is definitely an exclusive club atmosphere that is exceptionally hard to feel welcome in. And God help you if you mention you play GW games. I once got laughed at for mentioning my Fantasy army, and pretty much insulted for my entire game for it. Not cool.

Bottom line of this nonsense is that some GWs are good, some are bad. Some FLGS are good, some are bad. And for the most part, it is a mixed bag. Personally, though, I'll avoid the club-sneer-GW-hate atmosphere 9 times out of 10. Welcome place to play > people wanting to sell, every single time.

FabricatorGeneralMike wrote:

Spot on in reguards to your earlier post.. But they didn't like the 'club house' atmosphere because the regulars didn't buy as much as those newer to ' The Hobby'..So they focused on what gave them the best return on their investments.

Now see, My FLGS lets people game ther for free when events arent happening. I think tht is so nice that when i go in to use it i do buy something, even if it is a soda or paint i have ben loking to get.

hotsauceman1 wrote:

FabricatorGeneralMike wrote:

Spot on in reguards to your earlier post.. But they didn't like the 'club house' atmosphere because the regulars didn't buy as much as those newer to ' The Hobby'..So they focused on what gave them the best return on their investments.

Now see, My FLGS lets people game ther for free when events arent happening. I think tht is so nice that when i go in to use it i do buy something, even if it is a soda or paint i have ben loking to get.

Right, but soda or paint isn't really a profitable impulse buy. This
isn't the movie theater that charges you 3 dollars for a soda.

malfred wrote:

hotsauceman1 wrote:

FabricatorGeneralMike wrote:

Spot on in reguards to your earlier post.. But they didn't like the 'club house' atmosphere because the regulars didn't buy as much as those newer to ' The Hobby'..So they focused on what gave them the best return on their investments.

Now see, My FLGS lets people game ther for free when events arent happening. I think tht is so nice that when i go in to use it i do buy something, even if it is a soda or paint i have ben loking to get.

Right, but soda or paint isn't really a profitable impulse buy. This
isn't the movie theater that charges you 3 dollars for a soda.

Yes, But the polite and accepting atmosphere makes it that place i got for my purchases.

GW is also supposedly a manufacturer, not a retailer.

The rules exist to sell models. They always have and always will. You'll notice how each new edition of the game has fascilitated the placement of more and more models on the table? You think that's accidental? Really?

ArchaonSon wrote:What comradeship only comradeship I see nowadays (In the hobby sense) is between groups of friends and clubs if you expect comradeship in GW stores its like expecting a kick in the teeth that is after the bully took your dinner money...

Why would you expect comradeship in a retail store from someone that needs to sell you stuff in order to get paid?

Of course comradeship is between players, the quote didn't suggest that it was somehow between players and red-shirts.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

malfred wrote:Right, but soda or paint isn't really a profitable impulse buy. This
isn't the movie theater that charges you 3 dollars for a soda.

It's not uncommon for small game stores to make more from snacks than from games, especially places with a bias towards PnP games.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

malfred wrote:You never know. If the models played at tournaments are exactly what's
sold in any given period of time, then GW would have gone out of
business a long time ago. There are people out there who don't make
time to play the games. People who play the games seek each other
out, so maybe that's why we think there are more of them.

You do realise that many 40K players do not play in tournaments. At all.
That's a very american thing. In the UK the majority of play is in peoples' homes or in private clubs.