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2017/11/22 16:29:25
Subject: Necron 8th Tactica - Unit grading in OP / NEW new FAQ discussion p.97
We can already deliver 20 Warriors into rapid fire range with the Deceiver, but no one's doing it (because it's not a very good strategy). Having the Veil back probably won't change that much, unless something else has been changed about Warriors that we're unaware of.
Assuming we can only get one Veil in an Army, I'm seeing the return of the Zahndrekh-Obyron Slingshot delivering Scythe Lychguard being the most potentially useful application.
If it turns out to be just a regular upgrade (like ResOrbs), oh man, I'm going to be delivering a TON of Gauss Immortals to my opponent's backdoor!
2017/11/22 17:38:43
Subject: Necron 8th Tactica - Unit grading in OP / NEW new FAQ discussion p.97
Anrakyr and his lych spring to mind, now dont need 1 million transports to get it DS in. Still runs the risk of failing the charge, but with +1 to charges it makes it an 8" on 2 dice, not impossible.
12,000
2017/11/22 17:45:53
Subject: Necron 8th Tactica - Unit grading in OP / NEW new FAQ discussion p.97
skoffs wrote: Assuming we can only get one Veil in an Army, I'm seeing the return of the Zahndrekh-Obyron Slingshot delivering Scythe Lychguard being the most potentially useful application.
Either using the Veil of Darkness on a unit of lychguard or teleporting a unit of gauss immortals seems to be my favourite two options. Especially when you can use MWBD on a unit of lychguard, which will add 1 to the charge roll, making them take an 8'' charge instead of a 9'' charge. Though with this loadout, i'm not sure if swords and shields or scythes would be better. Might even be worth taking a res orb with lychguard, though if lychguard don't become cheaper in CA i don't see this working out too well. Killing a squad of 10 lychguard is not difficult for some armies.
Another potential, but more minor and situational, application of the Veil of Darkness could be to teleport the overlord plus another unit (lychguard, warriors, immortals, or even a cryptek) beside a unit of deathmarks or flayed ones. I'd say this strategy probably wouldn't really work, but if they made deathmarks or flayed ones cheaper in CA, maybe it'd be a more viable option.
Perhaps using the veil of darkness alongside the deceiver could produce a sort of alpha strike option. I find that using zandrekh and obyron with the deceiver is very expensive, so I tend to shy away from using that combo. Also, you're guaranteed two other units (apart from the deceiver and overlord) to be able to go up the board.
In 7th, a cryptek could also take the veil of darkness, so maybe there's the option of using the veil with a cryptek?
2017/11/22 18:15:53
Subject: Re: Necron 8th Tactica - Unit grading in OP / NEW new FAQ discussion p.97
Some relics are usable by any Character, aren't they? Ostensibly the Nightbringer and Deceiver could use this new veil, depending. Which would be neat, at least.
With regards to Zandrekh and Obyron, what should Zandrekh bring with him when he uses the veil? Without exact wording, the leak only says "unit," so you could bring vehicles, beasts, and so on.
An auxiliary detachment for an understrength unit of Warriors in a Ghost Ark, along with a Cryptek from somewhere else, would get you the most value -- however disembarking is done at the start of the movement phase, while all this teleporting is done at the end, so Zandrekh has nothing to hide in and the Lychguard won't benefit from the Cryptek until the following turn.
10 Gauss Immortals, or 20 Warriors? Getting a Turn 1 charge out of this combination is already costing a lot and so saving some points on Zandrekh's bodyguard is likely wise.
Either way, your HQ's are both now far afield and the rest of your army needs to catch up. I don't know if Lychguard are effective enough to be worth investing so much to get a charge on turn 1 when you could use Kutlakh or Anrakyr with your chosen assault unit, and get a turn 2 charge for fewer points.
Kutlakh himself is a bit underwhelming offensively but he gives Lychguard the ability to advance and charge, on top of MWBD. Anrakyr won't be able to keep in range for his attack aura, but can affect Praetorians with MWBD for both shooting and assault.
2017/11/22 18:32:39
Subject: Necron 8th Tactica - Unit grading in OP / NEW new FAQ discussion p.97
Would be nice if perhaps Toholk got some canoptek interaction, invul bubble perhaps, his canoptek creations is what he's famous for, in the fluff at least
2017/11/22 18:33:57
Subject: Re: Necron 8th Tactica - Unit grading in OP / NEW new FAQ discussion p.97
Drakmord wrote: Some relics are usable by any Character, aren't they? Ostensibly the Nightbringer and Deceiver could use this new veil, depending. Which would be neat, at least.
i think our named characters won't have access to relics, since usually in current codex armies, unique characters don't have access to relics. The veil of darkness has traditionally been put on a lord, overlord, cryptek, or destroyer lord, so i don't see the nightbringer or deceiver being able to take the veil.
Drakmord wrote: With regards to Zandrekh and Obyron, what should Zandrekh bring with him when he uses the veil? Without exact wording, the leak only says "unit," so you could bring vehicles, beasts, and so on.
It would be interesting to see if the veil of darkness can take any unit, or just <faction> infantry units.
Drakmord wrote: Either way, your HQ's are both now far afield and the rest of your army needs to catch up. I don't know if Lychguard are effective enough to be worth investing so much to get a charge on turn 1 when you could use Kutlakh or Anrakyr with your chosen assault unit, and get a turn 2 charge for fewer points.
Using the deceiver's grand illusion + an overlord/destroyer lord with veil of darkness can alleviate this issue. On a good roll, the deceiver can teleport up most of your army, and in the best case scenario, 4 units + the deceiver and an overlord can be teleported up.
2017/11/22 18:37:02
Subject: Necron 8th Tactica - Unit grading in OP / NEW new FAQ discussion p.97
true. you would use the deceiver to get zandrekh up the board and then have obyron + another unit go up the board as well. If you roll a 3 on the grand illusion, you can teleport 2 more units up the field as well.
My question is, do we really need the zandrekh obyron combo now that we have the veil of darkness? Bringing both zandrekh and obyron costs 331 points, whereas bringing an overlord with a warscythe and veil of darkness would cost 112 (assuming that relics are free, but relics are always free in codices).
Or perhaps bringing the deceiver + zandrekh + obyron + overlord with veil of darkness could be viable? That's an 8'' charge with one unit, and a practically automatic charge with another
2017/11/22 19:18:10
Subject: Necron 8th Tactica - Unit grading in OP / NEW new FAQ discussion p.97
When are we supposed to be hearing more?
I gotta find out if they've un-useless-ed Night Scythes for transport yet before I decide whether I want to fully commit to an Immortal Legion.
2017/11/22 19:35:21
Subject: Re: Necron 8th Tactica - Unit grading in OP / NEW new FAQ discussion p.97
Drakmord wrote: Some relics are usable by any Character, aren't they? Ostensibly the Nightbringer and Deceiver could use this new veil, depending. Which would be neat, at least.
With regards to Zandrekh and Obyron, what should Zandrekh bring with him when he uses the veil? Without exact wording, the leak only says "unit," so you could bring vehicles, beasts, and so on.
An auxiliary detachment for an understrength unit of Warriors in a Ghost Ark, along with a Cryptek from somewhere else, would get you the most value -- however disembarking is done at the start of the movement phase, while all this teleporting is done at the end, so Zandrekh has nothing to hide in and the Lychguard won't benefit from the Cryptek until the following turn.
10 Gauss Immortals, or 20 Warriors? Getting a Turn 1 charge out of this combination is already costing a lot and so saving some points on Zandrekh's bodyguard is likely wise.
Either way, your HQ's are both now far afield and the rest of your army needs to catch up. I don't know if Lychguard are effective enough to be worth investing so much to get a charge on turn 1 when you could use Kutlakh or Anrakyr with your chosen assault unit, and get a turn 2 charge for fewer points.
Kutlakh himself is a bit underwhelming offensively but he gives Lychguard the ability to advance and charge, on top of MWBD. Anrakyr won't be able to keep in range for his attack aura, but can affect Praetorians with MWBD for both shooting and assault.
I'm more thinking about potential army bonuses with Kutlakh in the future. Sure he doesn't do much offensively BUT he's almost always hitting and who knows what Dynasty bonuses are coming?
CaptainStabby wrote: If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.
jy2 wrote: BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.
vipoid wrote: Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?
MarsNZ wrote: ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
2017/11/22 20:05:38
Subject: Necron 8th Tactica - Unit grading in OP / NEW new FAQ discussion p.97
Wouldn't the Immortals get charged by the harlequin troope and just die? Harlies are deadly in CC...
I gave it some thought and upon all y'all advice would want to use the Triarch Stalker so came up with this
True, quins will wreck gak but you could target them 1st if possible? Or, you could swap out Szeras for a basic Cryptek to get enough PL left over for a unit of Scarabs to protect the immos?
Personally, if you are going with the list you just suggested I would drop the Sypder for 3 simple reasons.
Spoiler:
1. Easy "First Blood" kill for your opponent as nothing stops them from targeting it. It's general stats are meh and it's save is not going to help it survive much either.
2. If, for whatever reason, you some how lose your Triarch Stalker on your oppontents T1 and it goes to your T1 then what will the Sypders roll be? Does it become a 78-90pt objective holders? Or, does it run across the field soaking up Shooting attacks? Or, does it hide in some Terrain to be used as a "if it stays alive I can't be tabled" unit? If your Sypders roll is to heal and do nothing else then it's wasted points when you cant do its job for whatever reason or if it's popped before you even get to use it.
3. The minute you heal something and your opponent sees that you will have doomed your vehicle. So here's the picture; it's your turn 1 after your opponent. He did 3 damage to your Triarch Stalker, you tell your opponent that the TS can gain a wound a turn, he trys to play off that hes not a bit pissed and tells you "okay, cool rule I guess". You then go to the end of the movement phase, tell your opponent you can now heal D3 of the Stalker thanks to the Fab Clawed Sypder, roll your D3 get a 3-4 to gain 2 wounds (meaning that you now took no wounds in the previous turn). You turn to look at your opponent and you see a rage and hatred that is stronger then that of the C'tan Vs The Old Ones. Now on his turn 2 not only will he fuq up your Sypder to prevent it's healing abilities but you've also got your Triarch Stalker involved and it's now being rained down by focus fire from your oppontents army and puff.... it's gone. So, because you wanted to make your Triarch Stalker last longer you have now made it priority no.1 for your opponent to shoot down.
I give you these reasons based on my own experience. I have used the Sypder 5 times in 8th and in those 5 games 2 of the above reasons happened to me in every game and made a major impact on the remainder of my games.
The thing is, While you might see the healing as a bonus it can actually be a hindrance when your healed unit is now being focus fired to death.
Bring the Spyder if you feel like it will pull it's weight just don't be upset if your plan doesn't go the way you wanted and you notice that your oppontents play a bit more vicious after you heal up the Triarch Stalker. Best thing to do is play a game or 2 with your list and evaluate the list afterwards to see what you are lacking and to see what way youd like to play.
He had his Harlies in a starweaver that first charged my warriors along with his bikes (guaranteed 16" move + 6" advance + charge is brutal). Next round he hopped out to help kill the squad. Lost the last 2 warriors by rolling a 6 on Morales with no CP left...
I was surprised at how effectively he took wounds from the stalker with his normal harlie troops. QS never kicking in against the AP-2 1D. Ended up winning the PL25 game by Victory Points (Scarabs killing his Death jester was golden).
PL35 saw me adding the Spyder and 3 Wraiths. Spyder fit focused en died too fast... It just doesn't have the wounds to weather anything. The Wraiths on the other hand were very tough and quite damaging against their T3.
Glad I got 2 victories but then again Harlies are also a weak army with not enough model diversity, although he will probably ally in some Craftworld stuff.
Next upgrade in januari is PL15 (16 in my case, so 50 Total).
Glad I got 2 victories but then again Harlies are also a weak army with not enough model diversity, although he will probably ally in some Craftworld stuff.
Next upgrade in januari is PL15 (16 in my case, so 50 Total).
Im happy it went your way.
Did you like the scarabs unit?
10 Warriors, 3 Wraiths and 6 Scarabs
Is probably what I would go with. Some more warriors for your shooting and wraiths for some more annoyance, being hard to kill unless the enemy have lots of smite / mortal wounds.
And ofcourse our golden bugs, the scarabs! They can never go wrong, atleast not from my experience!
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/11/22 20:17:21
2017/11/22 20:17:46
Subject: Necron 8th Tactica - Unit grading in OP / NEW new FAQ discussion p.97
My question is, do we really need the zandrekh obyron combo now that we have the veil of darkness? Bringing both zandrekh and obyron costs 331 points, whereas bringing an overlord with a warscythe and veil of darkness would cost 112 (assuming that relics are free, but relics are always free in codices).
Well, there's no point basing unit combos on current points when everything with an Index is get re-evaluated. Everything in our army will have a roll so it's not like the VoD is going to take over Zahndrekh/Obyron. If anything it might be helpful if we can add relics to our Named HQs.
I'm more thinking about potential army bonuses with Kutlakh in the future. Sure he doesn't do much offensively BUT he's almost always hitting and who knows what Dynasty bonuses are coming?
I agree with your statement. We have 4 Dynasties in the Index so we at least have 4 different Dynasties that will all go different Buffs and Synergies. Chapter Approved is a sneak peak into the power we will have. Hopefully the wait for the Codex isn't too long after Chaos Daemons. I would imagine Maynarkh Dynasty will be our "CC" Dynasty based on their fluff and how they always get their orders done.
Anrakyr and his lych spring to mind
I'm thinking Anrakyr w/ Vod to deploy 10 Lychguard to not suffer from not charging + Deceiver to deploy Szeras and 20 Warriors. That would be an okay core with a bit of flexibility.
PL35 saw me adding the Spyder and 3 Wraiths. Spyder fit focused en died too fast... It just doesn't have the wounds to weather anything. The Wraiths on the other hand were very tough and quite damaging against their T3.
At least you know how the Sypder works now. Not that well. However, 6 Wraiths will be very reliable as off next week. Also, in 7th you needed a Spyder to give RP to Wraiths. Now all you need is to spend 2 CP so it's actually some-what better.
Also, the Re-rolling 1s for RP works for every unit that urn not just 1 so it looks like we will get our resilience back.
Is there a reason you're taking Warriors despite them performing so badly?
(Is it because your initial list is locked in and now you can't swap them out, only add things?)
2017/11/23 04:05:00
Subject: Necron 8th Tactica - Unit grading in OP / NEW new FAQ discussion p.97
Glad I got 2 victories but then again Harlies are also a weak army with not enough model diversity, although he will probably ally in some Craftworld stuff.
Next upgrade in januari is PL15 (16 in my case, so 50 Total).
Im happy it went your way.
Did you like the scarabs unit?
10 Warriors, 3 Wraiths and 6 Scarabs
Is probably what I would go with. Some more warriors for your shooting and wraiths for some more annoyance, being hard to kill unless the enemy have lots of smite / mortal wounds.
And ofcourse our golden bugs, the scarabs! They can never go wrong, atleast not from my experience!
Yep, Scarabs are Nice, if only as a distraction to take fire
Is there a reason you're taking Warriors despite them performing so badly?
(Is it because your initial list is locked in and now you can't swap them out, only add things?)
Yeah, Original list is fixed, can only add units, but next time Will then combineren my 2x3 Scarabs into one 6-base, at least if I add in 3 more. Could also go CCB + 3 Wraiths ofcourse, as I like Canoptek (though regret the Lack of RP unless you Shell out CP's...)
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/11/23 04:08:00
3500+
2017/11/23 05:23:49
Subject: Necron 8th Tactica - Unit grading in OP / NEW new FAQ discussion p.97
I think Deceiver + Veil will be nice. Teleporting Gauss immortals in cover in rapid fire range can be devastating.
Teleporting Wraiths should be nice too
2017/11/23 05:42:57
Subject: Necron 8th Tactica - Unit grading in OP / NEW new FAQ discussion p.97
skoffs wrote: When are we supposed to be hearing more? I gotta find out if they've un-useless-ed Night Scythes for transport yet before I decide whether I want to fully commit to an Immortal Legion.
I do not believe there are going to be any changes to unit profiles in Chapter Approved beyond adjusting point costs. They said everybody gets at least one WT, relic, and stratagem, with some armies getting a few more, but I have not seen any mention of profiles. Considering the brevity of the previous leak I'm afraid this is going to be all we get until our codex comes around.
---
With regards to using the Veil to set up assaults, considering how much of a pain it is to do, I have to wonder if it's really worth it. You pay a lot to get one unit into assault, while other armies have no need to jump through hoops to deliver equally-or-more powerful units into enemy ranks. Not a complaint about other peoples' toys but rather that we're still missing the rest of ours -- dynasty tactics, more relics and a fuller panoply of stratagems ought to make it more palatable but until then, Necron lists have more flexible uses for the points.
Of course CA could be generous and give us steep discounts, I'm just not holding my breath!
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/11/23 05:50:02
2017/11/23 08:21:01
Subject: Necron 8th Tactica - Unit grading in OP / NEW new FAQ discussion p.97
The VOD really increases the value of Zandrekh's stock just as an HQ
Having something like a Transcendant C'tan zip up with a MWBD unit that's also had Transcient Madness is pretty solid. Transcient Madness is a really good buff, if random , but the VOD can compensate for it a lot.
2017/11/23 14:03:16
Subject: Necron 8th Tactica - Unit grading in OP / NEW new FAQ discussion p.97
The thing the Veil has over the Deceiver (besides price) is the fact that everyone can get their beginning of turn buffs (eg. MWBD).
If you use Deceiver to move Zahndrekh up, he'll be there away from everyone else at the beginning of the turn, meaning no one near him will benefit from his buffs.
With this, if the bearer is an Overlord, the unit being moved will start the turn next to him to get his buff, then they'll all get to Veil up.
But for real, if there's nothing in C.A that fixes our flyers, then there's no real reason for anyone to take them anymore.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/11/23 15:45:17
2017/11/23 16:20:14
Subject: Necron 8th Tactica - Unit grading in OP / NEW new FAQ discussion p.97
But for real, if there's nothing in C.A that fixes our flyers, then there's no real reason for anyone to take them anymore.
Would you take them if they had a good points decrease? N.Scythe is 174pt and a D.Scythe is 220pts currently but if the N.Scythe became 124-134pts (let's says that it still has no Transport keyword due to no new rules) and the D.Scythe became 170-180pts. Would you consider taking them as you could field more for less but with current rules and stats?
It'd be nice to see the doomscythe firing the heavy weapon at full BS too
Automatically Appended Next Post:
skoffs wrote: The thing the Veil has over the Deceiver (besides price) is the fact that everyone can get their beginning of turn buffs (eg. MWBD).
If you use Deceiver to move Zahndrekh up, he'll be there away from everyone else at the beginning of the turn, meaning no one near him will benefit from his buffs.
With this, if the bearer is an Overlord, the unit being moved will start the turn next to him to get his buff, then they'll all get to Veil up.
But for real, if there's nothing in C.A that fixes our flyers, then there's no real reason for anyone to take them anymore.
Ah yes, this is an important distinction
Automatically Appended Next Post: Ah nice buff would be to have MWBD happen anytime during the movement phase, it would strengthen the deep strike shenanigans we can pull off and allow the CCB to have great potential range for it's ability
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/11/23 16:47:09
2017/11/23 17:26:22
Subject: Necron 8th Tactica - Unit grading in OP / NEW new FAQ discussion p.97
With armies such as alaitoc, alpha legion, and raven guard, who have -1 to hit penalties for shooting at a unit outside of 12'', i think the deceiver and veil of darkness could be our answer to those armies. The deceiver teleporting d3 units of gauss immortals, wraiths, or warriors and having a squad of lycguard or another unit of gauss immortals teleport up with the overlord with the veil of darkness can solve the problem of shooting units outside of 12''.
I've got a few eldar players in my gaming group, so hopefully i should be able to use these to my advantage.
2017/11/23 19:21:27
Subject: Necron 8th Tactica - Unit grading in OP / NEW new FAQ discussion p.97
Odrankt wrote: Would you take them if they had a good points decrease?
Doubtful.
If they don't fix anything but the price,
The Night Scythe will still be a crappy way to "transport" Infantry,
And the Doom Scythe will still be shooting its big gun at BS4.
Pretty significant deal breakers for me.
2017/11/24 08:17:18
Subject: Necron 8th Tactica - Unit grading in OP / NEW new FAQ discussion p.97
Odrankt wrote: Would you take them if they had a good points decrease?
Doubtful.
If they don't fix anything but the price,
The Night Scythe will still be a crappy way to "transport" Infantry,
And the Doom Scythe will still be shooting its big gun at BS4.
Pretty significant deal breakers for me.
Honestly, it depends on the decrease, surely?
2017/11/24 11:27:55
Subject: Necron 8th Tactica - Unit grading in OP / NEW new FAQ discussion p.97
Ok an isolated mathematical sense, bs4 to bs3 is a 1/3 increase in DMG output. A corresponding drop in points would statistically make up for it, only you can't buy 4/3 doom scythes.
For the bigger weapons each dice roll becomes more important. No numbers to adjust for the amount of hits needed.
But if you cut the doom scythe price in half I'd gladly field 2 of them I think (would need to look at compared damage outputs first)
12,000 
3500+ 
