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So me and some of the guys at the flgs have been talking lately about armies you don't see often on the tables. We have a pretty semi serious group of players, we like to run fluffy lists but at the same time we like to make those lists as competitive as we can.

Anyways as we were talking and i have always loved the black templars but no one here plays them. I know that they are seen as just not that good in some reapects due to no psychers and only able to deny if using cp plus their legion trait is seen as sub par by a lot of people but i want to give them a try. Then i saw that furry armageddon video and i had to make an army lol.

This is what i am thinking...



So the list idea is pretty aggressive and simple. Lots of transportation for units to get up into 24" range by turn 2. I had to put the drop pod of 10 marine squads with flamers because...... "Avenge me brother... AVENGED ME!". But between the crusader, the 3 rhinos, the drop pod, the jump pack marines, and the vindicators, the army should have mobility covered.

Any thoughts or advice from veteran black templar players?

Why so many stormshield on the veterans ? I think that's the firt time I see someone trying to play vindicators ! I

Storm shields are 2pts, i figured why not put them on there. If even 1 3++ save is made where it would have failed normally thats a marine that i didnt pay for's wound right there. And if they do fail, its whatever. But as a screen for my chrs they make a pretty hard tar pit for anything that punches hard (mr demon prince.... come here, i want you to swing at me and not my tank!)

Yeah i like vindicators a lot. Just traded a venerable dread for 2 giving me 3 (guy has had them for 7 months and never used them so was willing to make me a deal for a dread he needed for his list, i call it a win!).

My theory craft of the list is threat saturation. My opponents should have trouble taking out that many vehicles turn 1, but you never know. If i go 2nd i use the strat to give myself cover so a 1+ land raider and 2+ rhinos / vindicators t1 is nice. If they kill the crusader then all i need is for the 3 vindicators to survive then i can start dropping pie plates like its 7th edition (3d3 mortals on a 4+? Hell yes). If they kill one the other 2 are still pretty effective for what they are and the rhinos move up to have turn 2 multi meltas and plasma guns in range getting full rerolls thanks to the high marshel. Threat saturation at its finest.

Vanguard vets and attack bikes take up the bully roll, find an easy target and make them suffer. I had luck with vanguard vets with jump packs and melta bombs before in a ravenguard list. They flew up next to a armiger helverin, dropped a melta bomb on it, charged in and surrounded it, then next turn fell back and dropped another bomb killing it. Thats going to be their roll.


So yeah, that's what i was thinking when making the list.

 Master Chief VF wrote:
I think that hunters are some of the strongest models in the codex SM at the moment.

If you build a space marines list you should bring at least 2 of these things with you.

Realstically why you would every take it over the stalker boggles the mind. Even hitting on 4's vs ground targets it will do more damage vs anything but a t8 target (and that isn't significant) However anything with the fly keyword is likely getting hit 6 times compared to one with the hunter - it's not even close.

Yeah, the stalker is just way more versatile (not that I'd really take either of them tbh) and most of the targets you want skyfire against aren't that tough to begin with.

As per dreadnoughts. If your playing defensively, just take ranged venerable dreads. If your that afraid of elite chargers give it a dreadnought CC weapon. Ironclads are only ever going to be worth it if your going to be applying heavy 2nd turn pressure.

As per Vindicators. Keep in mind that as soon as you lose one, your down to a really sub-par weapon profile. Also keep in mind that you can advance and still use the strategem IIRC. I've been thinking about using them to counter drone/character spam. Sure they're hitting characters on 5+ but with 5-6 characters in an aura bubble you might be able to snipe one or two of them. If your feeling REALLY CP Inefficient drop down an orbital for funsies afterwards

Vindicators do make a very efficient unit for dealing with 1 important niche set of opponent units: The T5 melee beatsticks like Bullgryn. S10 and enough damage to probably 1 shot each target model means it can earn it's points back in a single shot vs a unit the rest of the army will struggle to wound.
Too bad their range is so terrible they probably won't survive to get the shot off vs their prime target and they're not good enough vs other units.

Triple vindis has a few tricks up its sleeves. The Strat is pretty good, allowing you to drop mortal wounds in a bubble fairly accurately. In addition, you don't have to fulfill any normal requirements for shooting, so you can a) advance them on T1, b) not worry in the slightest if they get caught up in cc.

they form a pretty decent roadblock, and there's a chance your opponent might overly-prioritise them with their shooting.

 grouchoben wrote:
Triple vindis has a few tricks up its sleeves. The Strat is pretty good, allowing you to drop mortal wounds in a bubble fairly accurately. In addition, you don't have to fulfill any normal requirements for shooting, so you can a) advance them on T1, b) not worry in the slightest if they get caught up in cc.

they form a pretty decent roadblock, and there's a chance your opponent might overly-prioritise them with their shooting.

This is exactly what i was thinking. Target saturation between the crusader, the trip vindicators, and the 2 rhinos with melta / plasma teams in it.

Well I like the crusader with them, he's a perfect match. Not so sure about the rhino teams tbh. I think you'd be better off standing back with FW dreads, behind the crazed Vindis and some big intercessor vet squads but hey, everyone's got their own jam right? Good luck and let us know how it works out.

It just seems hard to justify a vindicator over a barebones predator for the small amount more points. Especially at triple, killshot is just as good as the vindicator strat and on a better platform.

I run trip preds in my space wolves and yeah they are amazing there as well. Especially next to njal giving them -1 to hit and cover. But i think the big difference will be t7 of the pred vs t8 of the vindicators. I did consider running both but couldnt find a way to do that and have any meaningful level of all comers fighting ability.

Their board position is vastly different though, and vindis can form bunch points, tie in CC and still 'shoot', and are T8. I agree that Preds when they are left alone are much better, but they make target priority so straight forward for your opponent. Board control, denial, LoS blocking and CC shooting are significant advantages. Not enough to make them competitive, but enough to make them tactically interesting, and cheeky to play.

Are three pedators with killshot valuable ? Almost 600 pts, quite squishy and an obvious target for the opponent, isn't it ?

 godardc wrote:
Are three pedators with killshot valuable ? Almost 600 pts, quite squishy and an obvious target for the opponent, isn't it ?

They sure feel that way, esp. with the point premium on them. Still, if you're playing on boards with enough terrain to give them LOS cover I think they'd be alright.

The only way i see them valuable is in a space wolves force, preds at -1 to hit and a 2+ save due to cover are surprisingly resilient, you can get 2 or sometimes 3 turns with kill shot with proper target priority before you lose one.

Azuza001 wrote:
The only way i see them valuable is in a space wolves force, preds at -1 to hit and a 2+ save due to cover are surprisingly resilient, you can get 2 or sometimes 3 turns with kill shot with proper target priority before you lose one.

Yeah that seems much more interesting, I'm quite jealous, and sad that GW hate us mini marines so much now. I'll do a test on the 5th July with three predators vs DG so I'll soon see.

Have a game planned tomorrow against a regular Tau opponent. His list has crippled most of my armies and he wants to practice for the London GT so it's going to be pretty mean, but need help planning my SM list as it's the only one that's beaten him.

His list

2x Commanders w. 4x FB
Shadowsun
Darkstrider
Ethereal
Cadre Fireblade

6x5 Firewarriors

2x5 Pathfinders
2x Riptides w. HBC + SMS
3x Firesight Marksmen

3x Broadsides w. HYMP + SMS

15x Shield Drones

His main tactic is to castle up and use a huge number of buffs on the Broadsides. The list has tabled my other lists including Raven Castellan Knights, Armoured Guard and Custodians, but my Marine list is the only one that's beaten it, partially due to a large degree of LoS-block and unlucky rolls on his part.

My list
Lias Issodon
Lieutenant
Librarian

2x10 Tacticals w. Lascannon, Plasma + Combi-Plas
10x Intercessors

10x Hellblasters
5x Devs w. ML
5x Devs w. HB
Leviathan Dreadnought w. Stormcannons

The RG tactic certainly helped but I highly doubt I could pull off another win with this list. What else could I add to it? I have the following units at my disposal in addition to the ones above.

10x Tacticals
10x Reivers
Various other Characters including Ancients, Chaplains, etc.
5x Termies w. CML
2x Dreadnoughts w. TL + CCW
5x Devs w. MM

Mechanised Guard including a Valdor

All 4 different Assassins

Wide variety of Custodes.

All Imperial Knights

Target priority and playing the mission is very important in that fight. My mentor for 8th edition was the stores top tau player and i learned how to fight tau with necrons vs him.

What i learned was -

1. Target the fire warriors first. They have to die, and most tau players wont save a fire warrior with a drone, but they are the backbone of a tau force. Between the sheer number of overwatch shots they add and the range of their guns they have to go.

2. Once the firewarriors are no longer an issue ( remember that you dont have to kill a squad to make it no longer a threat) target drones next with any anti infantry weapons you have. Always target the drones before firing any anti tank weapons, every removed drone is one more las cannon that can get through.

3. Use close combat as a threat, not an actual thing. If your opponent thinks your going to be able to lock something important in cc he may move it away from an important objective.

Good luck!

 godardc wrote:
Are three pedators with killshot valuable ? Almost 600 pts, quite squishy and an obvious target for the opponent, isn't it ?

No - predators are one of the worst choices we have. Even without strats the Vinidcator is better and is at least scary in certain situations. Plus they are a lot cheaper. Tripple vindy really helps the rest of your list. Because not killing one of those vindis is basically not an option for your opponent. Preds? Who cares...+1 to wound? I'm already rerolling all my wounds....Plus they are a lot easier to kill.

Thanks for the input, i find +1 to wound and +1 dmg from 3 preds with autocannon / heavy bolters to be quite nasty myself.

For 1cp thats 6d3 str 7 (wounding t8+ on 4's, t7-on 3's) ap-1 d4 shots and 18 str 5 (wounding t6+ on 4's) ap-1 d2 shots. In the game of invunerables thats pretty nasty for a lot of vehicles to face. You should reliably kill 2 armigers with 3 preds with that setup.

But i also agree that vindicators put a lot more pressure on the enemy. They have to kill 1, its that simple. And even if they do then you have 2 really powerful cannons that should be able to deal with enemy vehicles easily enough as long as you roll average.

If you take 3 Preds, it's to force the opponent to kill one T1. Which means it's because you need him diverted from your other super-killy threats.

But if you can force them to put most of their dakka into taking out a single backfield tank, they'll have less dakka going into whatever else you took.

It doesn't divert enough dakka. And its a costly diversion at that.

Vindicators, scary ? It's probably the only unit I haven't seen played since 8th dropped, with land speeders. The very moment 8th was launched, vindicators were doomed. Even the stratagem is garbage: disgustingly resilient stops MW, hordes of gaunts, guards and orks just laugh at 6 (on average) MW, and only at 24"... Only SM fear that. Oh, how the mighty have fallen ! And only if you can, after having spent your CP, hit on 4+...
I should give them a try then I guess !

So i was looking at something and realized the strat not only works even if the tank is in cc but also hurts friendlys as well as opponents. So i came up with the following for maximun lols....



So the idea is maximum threat saturation, using the infantry to zone the enemy away from your fun toys.

If your able to the galant should be able to draw some fire quickly thanks to its ability to be an immediate threat. If it takes a bunch of wounds but doesnt die use the strat from vindicators to do 3d3 mortal wounds to it killing it yourself then pop strat to explode on a 4+ for even more lols.

Does it make sense? No. But it does lead to some stupid trolly fun.....

If you really try this, I wanna have the after action report !

The Crimson Fists chapter tactics, does it work on shooting attacks too ?
I really like all their rules and special stratagems, and what about the relic ? Does it benefit from the new rapid fire rules ?

Yes c fists are pretty hot.

So, how does plasma and rerolls of 1's and bolter drill work with their CT ?

I have a plasma gun.
Le'ts say I roll a one and a 2.
I have +1 for shooting due to my CT.
So I can't have a 1 and I don't die ?

Yup. The modifier taketh away, but also giveth. Rerolls are always before mods.

Wow that's strong !
Imagine small 2 or 3 men squad of veterans with plasma, they could totally be safe for overheating while shooting even small squad of elite ennemy infantry
Do you have any experience playing with or again Crimson Fists ?

I've seem them in action. They do well enough vs hordes before they die anyway.