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Ugh... so all my friends told me BAO was lame. Every game was just seeing which side could kill a Knight first. Castellans were most popular for single Knight armies; Castellan/Crusader/naked Gallant for pure Knights at a minimum; Chaos lists took a Double Avenger Renegade. One guy brought Smash Captains + choppy Scouts + 3x Gallant.

And yeah, Tau are back at the top tables. Geoff played Custodes. Brandon Grant got KO'ed by Ynnari. 1K Sons, BA, DA, and Harlequins also got really far.

As for AdMech, Jason McKenzie was placed #16:

Valhallan Battalion
Company Commander
Primaris Psyker
Primaris Psyker
Astropath
Astropath
Infantry
Infantry
Conscripts

Mars Spearhead
Cawl
4x Kastelan
3x Icarus Crawler

SH Auxiliary
Questoris Knight Styrix (Freeblade)

So... seems like our top list at BAO is still the old standby of 4-5x Cawlstar with 2-3x Icarus Crawler. Huh.

Also, congratulations to ph34r for outplacing Maxwell Hill, who brought Neutron Crawlers, Sicarians, and Peltasts... very weird. Greg Markman did BA+Guard+Drills and placed 99; I think taking that Banehammer was a mistake in this meta.

Harlequins? Hmm that’s interesting. I watched Geoff’s round 5 versus the ynari player, is that the same guy that knocked out Brandon grant. (Daniel something?)

Will you be going to the LVO next year suzuteo?

I will. My friends down in SoCal are insisting that I go. Lol.

I don't get it you go to a tour with 3 onagers and Cawl star and you don't take 2* Icarus 1 * neutron? Ok Icarus bla bla I use also two but 3 ? In so many knights meta? I don't get it

I'm not surprised. In the last set of tournaments, I saw a few lists with Knights + Guard + 3x Icarus Crawler. They're really good unbuffed for shooting down flying enemies, and everything and their mom flies.

Is think Neutronagers are quite unreliable because of low number of shots, paired with that most things got invulns. That especially true, when you are just taking 1.

 lash92 wrote:
Is think Neutronagers are quite unreliable because of low number of shots, paired with that most things got invulns. That especially true, when you are just taking 1.

So the main question is if taking multiple is gonna make them any better. I want to like it so much because a minimum of 3-6 damage IS a good rule, but even rerolling all hits via Cawl doesn't make it do more than a few wounds against the Knight.

Knights pretty much make all vehicle-based anti-tank that cannot go toe-to-toe with a Knight obsolete. As BAO demonstrated, best way to take a Knight down is actually through melee or mortal wound spam. (Dragoons and Kastelans are actually okay for it; they can really hurt your dudes, but your dudes can really hurt their Knight too, and once the Castellan goes down, they usually lose because you have shooting that they relied on the Knight to defeat.)

You vehicles should be focusing on killing flying and minus hit enemies. So Icarus Crawlers, Ironstriders, Hellhounds, Knight Styrix, etc. are all good options.

I really need to figure out how those Tau lists work though.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
So I was studying the top AdMech list, and I just realized something: Styrix has built-in Ion Bulwark and Sanctuary.

Now, he has always had this, and we've always dismissed him because the fully kitted out build is a hefty 500 points, which is ~75 points more than he's worth. But then it hit me: the codex has indirectly improved Styrix's value in the form of opportunity cost.

Think about it. Everyone takes Ion Bulwark and/or Sanctuary as a part of de-risking their Knight. It's baked into the pie. But Styrix already has it. So you just bought Ion Bulwark and Sanctuary for 75 points...

And I crunched the numbers. With the House Krast tradition, warlord trait, and heirloom, you're hitting harder than a Gallant against other Knights and your Volkite Chieorovile deals as much damage as a Volcano Cannon!

Suzuteo wrote:
I'm not surprised. In the last set of tournaments, I saw a few lists with Knights + Guard + 3x Icarus Crawler. They're really good unbuffed for shooting down flying enemies, and everything and their mom flies.

I've run a lot of variants of that basic idea, not in tournaments but against some pretty good players with some pretty nasty lists. It's a solid combo and not one to underestimate. Icarus Crawlers are like an IG player's wet dream, they just cover so many weaknesses we have so well. It's like a hydra, if they were good. Its not surprising me that gunline minded players would run something like this. Especially since the enginseers can repair IG vehicles so that's a fun little extra and makes them feel slightly less useless when souped with IG.

I mean, the fact that with protector doctrina you can basically guarantee you hit any flier in the game on 2's base is a nice thing to have with all the -1 abilities these days too. Since IG and knights don't have as many ways to get around hit penalties you really need that kind of guaranteed accuracy.

Exactly. Knights for vehicles and other Knights, Hellhounds for minus to hit infantry, and Icarus Crawlers for anything that flies. Throw in some melee units like Dragoons and Bullgryns to boot. They cover each other's weaknesses very well.

 Ideasweasel wrote:
Harlequins? Hmm that’s interesting. I watched Geoff’s round 5 versus the ynari player, is that the same guy that knocked out Brandon grant. (Daniel something?)

Yes, the Ynnari player beat Brandon and played the following round against Geoff.

As for Icarus, aside from Knights a lot of good units have fly and -1 to hit or good invuls.

The combo is good and I v tested two more in My list today.
And yes I use Errant knight cause it's the knight I believe fits ad mech cheap antivehicle and not afraid to send him forth.

I'm yet to test Gallant but those two would be my first choice . Paladin is also considered but I wanna test the cheap ones first.

Robots today and Cawl proved why Cawl is a must.

Icarus onagers even Robots hitting on 5-6s since I played that night mission where extreme.

I like drill and priests but no points for them as I see it. It would be almost a choise between drill priests and a knight and aTm knights is better mainly cause of the mobility.

Sure I could remove Robots for priests same mobility issues and tbh I would consider it if I dint believe Cawl is a must. Or maybe lists full assault/ mobile.

Every single -hit flier cover etc plan is negated from Cawl and his superb reroll ALL hits . There it is can't win that . We played teams I played with Tau ally and he did nothing . He had almost -2 all game to hit fliers and schenario he practically send hq to tar pit . It was sad. Markers could not hit and Tau was negeted.

Even if some marker passed the efficiency would be bad.
And again I stress the dogma power of stygies and especially Dragoons .they are a force with the -2 to hit making a mixed dogma not yet worth it so much.( Still testing)

We only got shroud( Cawl helps it a ton to roll it) and -1 to hit from stygies rest army is paper compared to any other army.

Seen video tried some lists wanna be the Tour list breakdown.

Take the winning list. Pbc with demon priest and rerols and surviving vs Icarus . Cause that's the comparison I saw in that game . Maybe a less shooting but tons more durable not to mention 1) two rerollable flamers for offence back field defence and ofc antiair. So as a multi unit same average cost performs better. Might need some comparison vs helverins but still.

Helverins average 174 points making them over the price.

I'd say I prefer my 440 points Robots with less damage but can be buffed vs a knight with two gatlings for me . So I made that change .

So far we missing a deep strike boightlord group it's same average cost like Dragoons while they deep strike Dragoons bla bla you get the picture but we miss a bit of shooting here while we prevail in melee and infiltration from round one.

Cawl and demon prince I consider both protectors and buffers. Work points from onagers cover Cawl extra points more less 20 points different.

And there lies my question. Death guard invested two helverins for +3 CP and was able to win the tour . Unfortunately I need more CP for my infiltrations Robots etc knight to get him melee bla bla so one helverin must be guard somewhat. If not battalion or +1 CP at least for deny psych and CP recycle .

What's left? Few points to compete ? If you decide to play with as I stated so far the units you don't have valid detachments.
Either you pay 47 tax for a tech priest and. Make a mixed battalion loosing styges defence or split detachments and play with 6 CP making outrider spearhead and supreme command( I use for advantage on CP cycle) or what.

It's a helvering difference for almost and I stress almost same output.

Why I say it I loved the list and I play deathguard. Stressed many times the boightlord and cloud of flies Combe pre faq. And when I saw the list I consider it superb all around especially with flamers. He has also the mad elite with extra flamers and defnce 74 points.

I see 174 points helverin and a pbc missing I need to pay tax for a battalion ( need more CP) or risk with CP cycle and take maybe two balistarii. Still one pbc short. Same points effectively a helverin or pbc shorter not to mention my warlord is a commander and onagers balistarii average less durable maybe hit a bit better.(debatable when add flamers )

So just to answer some Tris I did today. And ofc the list plays nicely but once more taxed ..

Yup Icarus are super powerful:
It's not just Flyers, so many (good) units got the fly keyword: Every Eldar Vehicle, all those Tau Suits, Shield Captains, Blood Angels Jump Pack units, Demon Princes and Primarchs, and more I might have forgot.

You can't split shot icarus... So the super vehicle you imagine is actually less potent . Less durable etc etc it has advantages but we are making a competitive statement here.

Maybe is someone wants to test priests vs robots and make the list with stygies onagers . Then we could actually compare to other armies vehicles . Still you d loose Cawl that makes then really good shooters vs anything ...


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And a question I have started to consider as valid .

Robots with two guns and one flamer worked fine vs fliers or charging units not so bad shooting...? I know they don't work too but to times I've tested worked for me .

Would work better with stygies Robots if not for that bad bs 4+



Could also use a comparison vs two balistarii autocann vs one helverin and those two vs Icarus maybe two lasc ballis.??


Question after the change Robots state that with protocol they shoot twice so they shoot also flamer twice ?? Was changed from faq so you can't change targets if I'm correct?? If so I'd consider 6 Robots all with flamers o:

Icarus Crawlers have been better than Neutron Crawlers for awhile now. Flying is too good. Anyhow, I find that to be settled knowledge in my mind. What I'm asking now: Are better than Ballistarii?

And yes, as Yoda says, you can split fire those Crawlers if you want to chew up infantry while still hitting vehicles with those rockets.

@Yoda79
Problem with flamer Kastelan is that you have to root yourself to make the Kastelan good. So you might have to run them Stygies in units of two that run in, override, flame?

--

Knights as a dominant strategy is very strong due to the structural advantages of a Knights list. They usually go first, give up very few points a turn in missions, and victory is essentially an anti-tank check for your opponent.

There's going to be an inflection point soon where people decide what is more likely to be undefeated: Knights or a list with a TAC strategy. I think it will be the latter because it has always been the latter. Hence why I think the 2x Armiger + lone Questoris is the best approach.

Anyhow, in terms of lone Knights, I think the Styrix might be something we should look into. It's actually surprisingly good:

SHOOTING
Volkite Chieorovile: 45" Heavy 5 S8 AP-3 DD6, +1 hit on 6+ wound roll
Graviton Crusher: 18" Heavy D3 S6 AP-2 D2, if target has 3+ save, D3 instead
Twin-Rad Cleanser: 9" Assault 2D6 S* AP0 D3, 6+ to wound vehicles/titanic, else 3+

FIGHTING
Hekaton Siege Claw A4 S16, AP-4, D6, -1 to hit rolls
Titanic Feet A12 S8 AP-2 DD3

Built-in Ion Bulwark, Sanctuary, and sort-of Mark of the Omnissiah

Take House Krast for:
1. Tradition: Krast units reroll all fighting hit rolls when charging, charged, making a Heroic Intervention, or if the target is Titanic
2. Stratagem: +1 hit on 6+ fighting hit roll, +2 hit if target is Chaos
3. WLT: Reroll all hit rolls of 1
4. Relic: +1D against W10+ targets, +2D if the target is Titanic instead

I mean, we all wanted to make the House Krast murder machine. We just couldn't give up the improved invulnerable save. But you can with this setup. Your Volkite Chieorovile is a 45" Volcano Cannon; Graviton Crusher is better than Meltagun at 18", your Stomps are absolutely brutal against vehicles; your Claw is comparable to a Gallant's Gauntlet. Cost is 500 points, so comparable to a Crusader.

You can also do House Raven with 2x Warglaives:
1. Tradition: Raven units can advance and still shoot
2. Stratagem: Reroll all shooting rolls
3. Landstrider WLT: +2 to advance and charge rolls for Raven units with 6"
4. Relic: Reroll fighting hit rolls of 1 for Raven units with 6"

Someone posted a math breakdown between ballistaari, icarus onager, and hellverins I think earlier in the thread.

The onager was consistently either the most efficient or second most efficient choice against a wide variety of targets. Other units had fringe cases that beat it but would then suffer against other targets.

If I'm building a competitive list, I would want something thats solidly an 8/10 as opposed to something that one game is a 10/10 and the next is only a 6/10. Maybe that's just me but I really like that consistency. Its also nice that it's always going to have the exact same number of shots every single turn, unlike something like a Hellverin which can decide it just wants to roll a garbage 4 shots on that critical turn like anything with random shots loves to do to me every game.

That in itself is not something to ignore either. Any unit that has a set value of shots I'm going to value over a similarly priced unit with random shots. Yes, there is such thing as an average, but an average doesn't do you a lick of good when you're in crunch mode on turn 6 and your massive beatstick unit that you're counting on decides it's only going to roll a couple of shots this turn. Half the reason the castellan knight is even being used is the Raven Strategem helping to mitigate that risk. If they didn't get to pay 2cp to reroll every single one I don't think they'd be near as common in competitive lists.

Personally i have dropped nearlly all shooting from my admec list. Even dropped dragoons as yes they are great but they die so fast in melee. I tried knight allies and found that simply put a blood angels battalion with 2 x smash caps, mephiston and 3 x scouts is far more effective. The caps will drop a knight easily. Have synergy, great board control for infiltrating priests etc. No overwatch cap to help get priests in on that tough overwatch target. Blobs of priests tieing up everything they can, fight twice, mortal wound output not to mention the 2++ on an objective. Just my opinion but far more reliable and cheaper that our shooting that relies on a 240pt model to be effective.

 MrMoustaffa wrote:
Someone posted a math breakdown between ballistaari, icarus onager, and hellverins I think earlier in the thread.

The onager was consistently either the most efficient or second most efficient choice against a wide variety of targets. Other units had fringe cases that beat it but would then suffer against other targets.

If I'm building a competitive list, I would want something thats solidly an 8/10 as opposed to something that one game is a 10/10 and the next is only a 6/10. Maybe that's just me but I really like that consistency. Its also nice that it's always going to have the exact same number of shots every single turn, unlike something like a Hellverin which can decide it just wants to roll a garbage 4 shots on that critical turn like anything with random shots loves to do to me every game.

That in itself is not something to ignore either. Any unit that has a set value of shots I'm going to value over a similarly priced unit with random shots. Yes, there is such thing as an average, but an average doesn't do you a lick of good when you're in crunch mode on turn 6 and your massive beatstick unit that you're counting on decides it's only going to roll a couple of shots this turn. Half the reason the castellan knight is even being used is the Raven Strategem helping to mitigate that risk. If they didn't get to pay 2cp to reroll every single one I don't think they'd be near as common in competitive lists.

Yeah, that was me. Lol. The Crawlers do even better the more of them you bring because you can split fire them with sufficient volume to down vehicles or wipe entire units. The big plus for Ballistarii though is that they can kill things that don't fly too.

Strangely enough, in terms of the math, it's better to take the random shots usually because they are priced lower in points and more easily modified by rerolls.

Envii wrote:
Personally i have dropped nearlly all shooting from my admec list. Even dropped dragoons as yes they are great but they die so fast in melee. I tried knight allies and found that simply put a blood angels battalion with 2 x smash caps, mephiston and 3 x scouts is far more effective. The caps will drop a knight easily. Have synergy, great board control for infiltrating priests etc. No overwatch cap to help get priests in on that tough overwatch target. Blobs of priests tieing up everything they can, fight twice, mortal wound output not to mention the 2++ on an objective. Just my opinion but far more reliable and cheaper that our shooting that relies on a 240pt model to be effective.

I think there are distinct shooting-heavy Mars and melee-heavy Stygies lists. It's a tossup for which is better. Tournament performance suggests that it's still the Mars lists, but that may be due to the low numbers of Drills circulating in the metagame.

I was 3-1 going into my last two games at BAO but I encountered some serious combinations of bad luck and my mistakes. Had my first games of 40k against Necrons, Mortarion, Magnus, Raven Guard, Dark Eldar, and Gallant + Gallant + Castellan + Battery + Smash Captains. I'm quite proud to have totally wiped three of those out from turn 1.
Game 6. Dark Eldar with 3 Hemlocks. His rolls were ridiculously on fire and completely killed a Castellan with 9 Dark Reapers on turn 1. Game was essentially over immediately. This is what happened to all the people I beat so I can't really be too mad. The deployment was also long-way down the table, and I was not surprised to discover that Kastelans having only 36" range doesn't work so well there. Nice color scheme on the Hemlocks. Player review: cool guy. Fatal flaw: 9 dark reapers dealing 22(?) wounds to a Castellan in one shot.

Game 5. Magnus flew 15" + 15" + 10" charge around my entire screen to charge my robots turn 1. Game was over basically immediately after he started his turn and I realized I 1. failed to completely screen and 2. failed to try to seize. Partially my fault for not screening properly, but it was my first time fighting Magnus. Also I forgot to interrupt my opponent to seize the initiative and he definitely did not go out of his way to ask if I wanted to. lol. Player review: /shrug. Fatal flaw: 3" of misplaced screen

Game 2. Necron guy. Rolls were turn 1 totally garbage for him, but then also terrible for me turn 1. Back to on fire again for him from turn 2 on, but he definitely knew what he was doing and had practiced well. 4 Robots unleashed everything on 13 destroyers and did jack-gak, with literally all of them (except maybe two?) coming back to life. Player review: cool guy. Fatal flaw: luck and forgetfulness
Mathhammer8thed.com reports 72 robot wrath shots should kill 16 Destroyers. Actually I forgot to use wrath so that one is on me... Mathhammer8thed says in that case I should actually only kill 8 destroyers. Killed about 4-5 Destroyers and only 2 actually died. Learned to respect the firepower of Destroyers. Also the Castellan did really really terrible at trying to kill the Gauss Pylon, which in theory it should be super-awesome at doing.

Game 1, 3, 4.
Blew up Raven Guard Fire Raptor with the Castellan alone, overkilling it by 2x its wounds before even firing the plasma gun which was then wasted. Robots killed entire rest of infantry turn 1, rest of game was smash captains hiding from stuff and dying. Basically a total blowout victory in the first 5 minutes of turn 1.

Game 3 was against the "exactly minimum guard CP battery battalion, exactly minimum BA smash battalion, 3 knights" which at first glance to me was terrifying. Then I blew up 1.75 knights and a captain on turn 1, and that was it. Straightforward game, blowout by turn 2.

Game 4 was vs Mortarion and friends. Blew up basically just the death shroud and pox walkers turn one, which worried me as he still had 2 daemon princes, 2 crawlers, Morty, plague marines, etc. Castellan did a real number on Morty however and by turn 2 I had basically blown up everything. Very straightforward game, total victory after a slightly lackluster turn 1 where I forgot to use wrath.

This was my first tournament since 6th edition, my first BAO-sized tournament since 2011, and my first games in maybe 4 months? Also my first tournament with Adeptus Mechanicus if the 6th edition thing didn't make that obvious. First time fighting each and every single type of list I fought. Learned a lot!

My ultimate goal for this tournament was to finish painting and modeling my list, and I basically did! Happy with my progress, folks liked the basilisks and the number of people asking to take pictures was super flattering.

Ultimate takeaways:

Fighting against -1, -2 to be hit on EVERYTHING eldar/dark eldar just felt like why am I even bothering to include models with BS 4+ in my army. Basilisks were kinda nice and fun to field but not amazing.
Don't forget to use Wrath of Mars when you shoot the enemy's Destroyer Deathstar.
Don't forget to use Wrath of Mars when you shoot the enemy's Mortarion.
Don't forget to try to seize the initiative.
Don't forget that Magnus can and will charge your units 42" away on turn 1.
Icarus Onagers are great and basically don't even need re-rolls against many targets. They certainly don't need Cawl.
4 Robots with Cawl caused ridiculous overkill vs the Raven Guard and Death Guard infantry after which they kinda just stood there while the enemy remnants hid.
AdMech Rangers are basically pointless. Same with Engineers. Felt like a total waste of 150 points.
The most important thing in the game is screening and having turn 1.
I'm not even sure there is a need for fully 4 robots or even Cawl anymore. The robots either super-overkilled their target, did not have a chance to shoot, or could only shoot -2 targets.
Maybe just take 3 robots 2 crawlers and call that good enough? Perhaps a standard Magos.

Suzuteo wrote:
Icarus Crawlers have been better than Neutron Crawlers for awhile now. Flying is too good. Anyhow, I find that to be settled knowledge in my mind. What I'm asking now: Are better than Ballistarii?

And yes, as Yoda says, you can split fire those Crawlers if you want to chew up infantry while still hitting vehicles with those rockets.

@Yoda79
Problem with flamer Kastelan is that you have to root yourself to make the Kastelan good. So you might have to run them Stygies in units of two that run in, override, flame?

--

Knights as a dominant strategy is very strong due to the structural advantages of a Knights list. They usually go first, give up very few points a turn in missions, and victory is essentially an anti-tank check for your opponent.

There's going to be an inflection point soon where people decide what is more likely to be undefeated: Knights or a list with a TAC strategy. I think it will be the latter because it has always been the latter. Hence why I think the 2x Armiger + lone Questoris is the best approach.

Anyhow, in terms of lone Knights, I think the Styrix might be something we should look into. It's actually surprisingly good:

SHOOTING
Volkite Chieorovile: 45" Heavy 5 S8 AP-3 DD6, +1 hit on 6+ wound roll
Graviton Crusher: 18" Heavy D3 S6 AP-2 D2, if target has 3+ save, D3 instead
Twin-Rad Cleanser: 9" Assault 2D6 S* AP0 D3, 6+ to wound vehicles/titanic, else 3+

FIGHTING
Hekaton Siege Claw A4 S16, AP-4, D6, -1 to hit rolls
Titanic Feet A12 S8 AP-2 DD3

Built-in Ion Bulwark, Sanctuary, and sort-of Mark of the Omnissiah

Take House Krast for:
1. Tradition: Krast units reroll all fighting hit rolls when charging, charged, making a Heroic Intervention, or if the target is Titanic
2. Stratagem: +1 hit on 6+ fighting hit roll, +2 hit if target is Chaos
3. WLT: Reroll all hit rolls of 1
4. Relic: +1D against W10+ targets, +2D if the target is Titanic instead

I mean, we all wanted to make the House Krast murder machine. We just couldn't give up the improved invulnerable save. But you can with this setup. Your Volkite Chieorovile is a 45" Volcano Cannon; Graviton Crusher is better than Meltagun at 18", your Stomps are absolutely brutal against vehicles; your Claw is comparable to a Gallant's Gauntlet. Cost is 500 points, so comparable to a Crusader.

You can also do House Raven with 2x Warglaives:
1. Tradition: Raven units can advance and still shoot
2. Stratagem: Reroll all shooting rolls
3. Landstrider WLT: +2 to advance and charge rolls for Raven units with 6"
4. Relic: Reroll fighting hit rolls of 1 for Raven units with 6"

Do you own a Stryix? And if you don’t are you considering buying one? What else would you take with it?

 ph34r wrote:
I was 3-1 going into my last two games at BAO but I encountered some serious combinations of bad luck and my mistakes. Had my first games of 40k against Necrons, Mortarion, Magnus, Raven Guard, Dark Eldar, and Gallant + Gallant + Castellan + Battery + Smash Captains. I'm quite proud to have totally wiped three of those out from turn 1.
Game 6. Dark Eldar with 3 Hemlocks. His rolls were ridiculously on fire and completely killed a Castellan with 9 Dark Reapers on turn 1. Game was essentially over immediately. This is what happened to all the people I beat so I can't really be too mad. The deployment was also long-way down the table, and I was not surprised to discover that Kastelans having only 36" range doesn't work so well there. Nice color scheme on the Hemlocks. Player review: cool guy. Fatal flaw: 9 dark reapers dealing 22(?) wounds to a Castellan in one shot.

Game 5. Magnus flew 15" + 15" + 10" charge around my entire screen to charge my robots turn 1. Game was over basically immediately after he started his turn and I realized I 1. failed to completely screen and 2. failed to try to seize. Partially my fault for not screening properly, but it was my first time fighting Magnus. Also I forgot to interrupt my opponent to seize the initiative and he definitely did not go out of his way to ask if I wanted to. lol. Player review: /shrug. Fatal flaw: 3" of misplaced screen

Game 2. Necron guy. Rolls were turn 1 totally garbage for him, but then also terrible for me turn 1. Back to on fire again for him from turn 2 on, but he definitely knew what he was doing and had practiced well. 4 Robots unleashed everything on 13 destroyers and did jack-gak, with literally all of them (except maybe two?) coming back to life. Player review: cool guy. Fatal flaw: luck and forgetfulness
Mathhammer8thed.com reports 72 robot wrath shots should kill 16 Destroyers. Actually I forgot to use wrath so that one is on me... Mathhammer8thed says in that case I should actually only kill 8 destroyers. Killed about 4-5 Destroyers and only 2 actually died. Learned to respect the firepower of Destroyers. Also the Castellan did really really terrible at trying to kill the Gauss Pylon, which in theory it should be super-awesome at doing.

Game 1, 3, 4.
Blew up Raven Guard Fire Raptor with the Castellan alone, overkilling it by 2x its wounds before even firing the plasma gun which was then wasted. Robots killed entire rest of infantry turn 1, rest of game was smash captains hiding from stuff and dying. Basically a total blowout victory in the first 5 minutes of turn 1.

Game 3 was against the "exactly minimum guard CP battery battalion, exactly minimum BA smash battalion, 3 knights" which at first glance to me was terrifying. Then I blew up 1.75 knights and a captain on turn 1, and that was it. Straightforward game, blowout by turn 2.

Game 4 was vs Mortarion and friends. Blew up basically just the death shroud and pox walkers turn one, which worried me as he still had 2 daemon princes, 2 crawlers, Morty, plague marines, etc. Castellan did a real number on Morty however and by turn 2 I had basically blown up everything. Very straightforward game, total victory after a slightly lackluster turn 1 where I forgot to use wrath.

This was my first tournament since 6th edition, my first BAO-sized tournament since 2011, and my first games in maybe 4 months? Also my first tournament with Adeptus Mechanicus if the 6th edition thing didn't make that obvious. First time fighting each and every single type of list I fought. Learned a lot!

My ultimate goal for this tournament was to finish painting and modeling my list, and I basically did! Happy with my progress, folks liked the basilisks and the number of people asking to take pictures was super flattering.

Ultimate takeaways:

Fighting against -1, -2 to be hit on EVERYTHING eldar/dark eldar just felt like why am I even bothering to include models with BS 4+ in my army. Basilisks were kinda nice and fun to field but not amazing.
Don't forget to use Wrath of Mars when you shoot the enemy's Destroyer Deathstar.
Don't forget to use Wrath of Mars when you shoot the enemy's Mortarion.
Don't forget to try to seize the initiative.
Don't forget that Magnus can and will charge your units 42" away on turn 1.
Icarus Onagers are great and basically don't even need re-rolls against many targets. They certainly don't need Cawl.
4 Robots with Cawl caused ridiculous overkill vs the Raven Guard and Death Guard infantry after which they kinda just stood there while the enemy remnants hid.
AdMech Rangers are basically pointless. Same with Engineers. Felt like a total waste of 150 points.
The most important thing in the game is screening and having turn 1.
I'm not even sure there is a need for fully 4 robots or even Cawl anymore. The robots either super-overkilled their target, did not have a chance to shoot, or could only shoot -2 targets.

Sounds like you learned a bit, I always forget to heal with my enginseer, that’s my whoops moment usually. So what did you list look like exactly, got a link?

Nice report. Sorry I couldn't make it. Was working over the weekend.

 ph34r wrote:
Game 6. Dark Eldar with 3 Hemlocks. His rolls were ridiculously on fire and completely killed a Castellan with 9 Dark Reapers on turn 1. Game was essentially over immediately. This is what happened to all the people I beat so I can't really be too mad. The deployment was also long-way down the table, and I was not surprised to discover that Kastelans having only 36" range doesn't work so well there. Nice color scheme on the Hemlocks. Player review: cool guy. Fatal flaw: 9 dark reapers dealing 22(?) wounds to a Castellan in one shot.

Yeah, this is what I was saying to people. Castellans are risky. You're putting a ton of points in one basket. If it dies, you lose. If it doesn't die, good chance you win. And just because your Castellan can kill something doesn't mean it doesn't counter your Castellan. ANYTHING that can kill a Castellan is a threat, and loading up on these threats makes others taking a Castellan very dangerous.

 ph34r wrote:
Game 5. Magnus flew 15" + 15" + 10" charge around my entire screen to charge my robots turn 1. Game was over basically immediately after he started his turn and I realized I 1. failed to completely screen and 2. failed to try to seize. Partially my fault for not screening properly, but it was my first time fighting Magnus. Also I forgot to interrupt my opponent to seize the initiative and he definitely did not go out of his way to ask if I wanted to. lol. Player review: /shrug. Fatal flaw: 3" of misplaced screen

Yeah. To be fair, 1K Sons have so many powers that it is tough to have a game plan, so going in blind is actually not that much different than going in informed. Anyhow, you definitely do want to do a castle deployment when you are up against a list with fast, flying melee. Basically, pick a table edge and cluster your shooting there. Deploy your Rangers relatively close to your Kastelans (within 3"), your Crawlers in front of them (use those dinner plates!), and your Guardsmen 3" in front of them as a midfield screen. Deny him the space to stand anywhere. The next turn, you can delete enemy threats and begin moving out.

 ph34r wrote:
Game 2. Necron guy. Rolls were turn 1 totally garbage for him, but then also terrible for me turn 1. Back to on fire again for him from turn 2 on, but he definitely knew what he was doing and had practiced well. 4 Robots unleashed everything on 13 destroyers and did jack-gak, with literally all of them (except maybe two?) coming back to life. Player review: cool guy. Fatal flaw: luck and forgetfulness
Mathhammer8thed.com reports 72 robot wrath shots should kill 16 Destroyers. Actually I forgot to use wrath so that one is on me... Mathhammer8thed says in that case I should actually only kill 8 destroyers. Killed about 4-5 Destroyers and only 2 actually died. Learned to respect the firepower of Destroyers. Also the Castellan did really really terrible at trying to kill the Gauss Pylon, which in theory it should be super-awesome at doing.

Always use Wrath of Mars, even if you don't have to. If you don't have enough CP, you need to bring more for the dakka.

 ph34r wrote:
Game 3 was against the "exactly minimum guard CP battery battalion, exactly minimum BA smash battalion, 3 knights" which at first glance to me was terrifying. Then I blew up 1.75 knights and a captain on turn 1, and that was it. Straightforward game, blowout by turn 2.

3x Gallant or 2x Gallant and Castellan? Gallants look scary, but a good shooting army doesn't need to worry about them until turn two. Just focus on killing the Castellan, and you win by merit of still having your Castellan.

 ph34r wrote:
Fighting against -1, -2 to be hit on EVERYTHING eldar/dark eldar just felt like why am I even bothering to include models with BS 4+ in my army. Basilisks were kinda nice and fun to field but not amazing.
Don't forget to use Wrath of Mars when you shoot the enemy's Destroyer Deathstar.
Don't forget to use Wrath of Mars when you shoot the enemy's Mortarion.
Don't forget to try to seize the initiative.
Don't forget that Magnus can and will charge your units 42" away on turn 1.
Icarus Onagers are great and basically don't even need re-rolls against many targets. They certainly don't need Cawl.
4 Robots with Cawl caused ridiculous overkill vs the Raven Guard and Death Guard infantry after which they kinda just stood there while the enemy remnants hid.
AdMech Rangers are basically pointless. Same with Engineers. Felt like a total waste of 150 points.
The most important thing in the game is screening and having turn 1.
I'm not even sure there is a need for fully 4 robots or even Cawl anymore. The robots either super-overkilled their target, did not have a chance to shoot, or could only shoot -2 targets.
Maybe just take 3 robots 2 crawlers and call that good enough? Perhaps a standard Magos.

I did warn you about the Basilisks. Since you already have a Castellan, you wanted to bring a second Icarus instead. And yeah, Icarus Crawlers work without Cawl. My first codex list had two in the Stygies detachment with the two Neutron Crawlers in the Mars detachment. Math showed that it worked best that way.

Rangers and Enginseers aren't useless. They are actually very important human speed bumps. If you every take Drills, load the Enginseers up, see if they can soak up the Overwatch for your Fulgurites.

Robots shouldn't be shooting -2 to hit targets. But I think there is room for them. I mean, there are lots of Guard matchups where they are valuable.


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 Ideasweasel wrote:
Do you own a Stryix? And if you don’t are you considering buying one? What else would you take with it?

Yeah. There are lots of cheapy, somewhat shady upgrade kits floating around. (Styrix and Magaera use the same chassis as the Questoris Knights.) I bought those for the Mechanicus flavored plates, but it's nice to see that the guns are valuable now.

As I don't consider Castelan valid I don't styrix as well. Might be better might be the proper one but I do not have one and I won't invest again 500 points in one model. I don't seem able to play them well enough to win and tbh seen many players even really good ones gimped from a lucky d6 damage weapon sooner or later. So trying hard to make it to a tournament reach semifinals or finals to have a bad luck and die. Form turn one. Sad and common really common for any 600+ army. imagine a Robot or mortar heavy list clearing your screen and your Castelan die as mine did turn one. My opponent played stratagem 3 CP to fight twice Castelan down from a 250 unit shooting somewhat 30 bolter shots and a 140 points hq model fighint twice . So I lost most games with a knight 500+ even lancer I like 480 cost me around 700++ turn one. It's an issue a big one. Splitting in more units atm waste enemy extradamage bad play bad target picking etc. Big units make games more risky easy for less skilled players to compete etc. Got advantages surely Castelan is a beast no argue but as an ad mech player and model owner I will go atm max 350-450 for may knight .

Same idea behind most of my lists and I pressure eventually we ended up with 4* robot lists. Though atm I could easily say try a spearhead with Cawl 1*4 robots and 2*2 flamers and two blaster ones but synergy is bad.

Castelan won't make it without Cawl and sure Icarus can hit without Cawl but. Cawl allow to Reroll A L L hits not onlay miss.

Your Icarus vs -2 flier can miss Cawl makes it beyond points good!. And since Robots can't be played without him nor stygies they suck melee and shooting 4+ it's a classic 4* robots and 2* Icarus min. For me.

I v deleted most lists I was testing the synergy is bad!

1)Supreme command guard knights don't work since I found to be loving my knight Taranis list above all others. Fnp is just the key part of knights not ion and definitely melee.

2) as I explained on the breakdown of the winning list in last tour we come to a conclusion points represent options and result.
So yes Gallant was praised in forums and the points might be a bit low but it is not the best option. Cause it can only play melee.

3) same answer I gave to my self for the broken Dragoons that I love but I v stared to use differently 2*1 1*3 outrider etc max cause all games I play my enemies know what they do and just plainly avoid them . So I found their cheap nature to suit me more as cheap screen rather than assault. Why ? No reroll on charge no shooting and eventually investing more that the cheap issue does not make them better as I explained.

4) same goes for priests . Their melee nature makes then leathal I love them the transport makes up for the gap a lot. Gives them durability and some movement. But.
Deep strike for them is bad. Infiltration is a must that is good and bad. Bad if you play second an experienced player will once more shoot an easy transport kill and won't bother with priests again since they won't move ever again to position . Done deal. Since they can't shoot I strongly suggest shooty priest as Mars and wrath of Mars different role but would result in more consistency.

You know what you get and pay for . Not that I won't use melee priest as I said I love them but for competitive play ATM stygies when I need Mars can't happen. Maybe mixed dogmas yet to be seen but without the -1 to get hit Dragoons transport etc already loose their actual appeal.

5) So in order to not break your balls reading though I consider this valuable experience I'd sum it up with parts I currently use separately and in various lists combinations etc. Still this is my experience how I play games view team building and merely share my point of view not forcing none to like or accept my findings.

There are more things Some Suzuteo already saying in his post and I find my self agreeing with him more and more so many times . Even if I don't view hiw mathhammer point of view in almost all cases after games we agree in the main concept . While I cosndider both different playstyle and approach I gotta say can't be so random to see some things the same from different points of view. So yes on top of what he said my lists would usually include as Ad mech detachments like .


Super heavy +3 CP

Errant
Warglaive
Warglaive

Not to mention the knights and mini mes looks.

Cawl star min spreahead or battalion usually spearhead.

1*4 Robots
2*1 Icarus

Tbh with the increased CP options if I could spare the overcosted destroyers I would want to have that elimination volley really I would and I consider it a test I want to make . I know they are bad but volume of fire maybe with grav don't know just saying maybe someone can elaborate.


Guard battalion is just TOP.

Commander
Phycher deny saved me more than once .

3*10 inf mortar
Maybe heavy. Teams mortar.

Less usable still options.

Outrider 3*1 Dragoons take it Mars with Cawl and Robots if you need less points from onagers and a decent screen. 68 points is a bargain.

A valid outrider maybe if you take a supreme command guard knight or if you play without allows or knights.

I definitely go for stygies .battalion and outrider.

Priests with transport and one enginseer can heal transport and Dragoons near . Did many times maybe get two enisnseers if you go heavy assault. To be honest I'd go for a

1*4 dragoon and 2*2 balistarii easily if I had the models love the concept beyond knights Armiger's.

Definitely could ad Icarus in stygies or even groups of two robots infiltrated with flamer and guns but two max.

I consider and see atm units able to do effectively dual roles as more important atm that's why I would try knight Armiger's vs Dragoons. Same goes for Robots vs priests. The synergies the auras the hq even the stratagems .

Knights got a reroll charge or relic to charge properly yes Dragoons don't. They are even less mobile. Would take dunestrider rule +2" on charge and move and only 2 exploding hits any day. Overkill they are and most time won't manage enage all we need.

Have fun.

Iago40k wrote:
Just had a look on the the new kill Team rules. Infiltrators and ruststalkers can be used. No one cares i know BUT they had a significant point drop compared to their current 40k situation (ruststalkers with claw is 15 and 16 for princeps, "infiltrators with flachette and taser the same). Question is: could they work in 40k if priced like that? Pure hypothetic.

I think they could work if they were given a point adjustment like that. Right now the rust-stalkers are just awful.

I've tried using them in a variety of ways and flat out they are not good. Even under ideal usage - against swarms, they are not worth their cost. They can really only get their points back on low toughness non-melee swarms like Imperial Infantry, Chaos Cultists, or the shooty tyranid swarmers. The big joke with this is that the very units they should be targeting can easily blast them off the table before even getting into melee. If you can camp them behind a wall and use them as a defensive counter-charger to protect your firing line - they can be somewhat worth-while, but even then they melt in combat against anything melee oriented.

I really hope they do get a point adjustment in 40k. 15-16 may be something close to fair for them.

Suzuteo, it actually hadn’t occurred to me to find alternative weapons for the forgeworld variants. My knight is Magnetised though so you have peaked my interest...

Ideasweasel wrote:
Sounds like you learned a bit, I always forget to heal with my enginseer, that’s my whoops moment usually. So what did you list look like exactly, got a link?

My list was:

Bay Area Open 2018: Adeptus Mechanicus of Phobos

Questor Mechanicus: RAVEN Super-Heavy Auxiliary -2cp
Knight Castellan, 2 cannons, 2 missiles, Cawl’s Wrath [1cp], Ion Bulwark [1cp] 604

Adeptus Mechanicus: MARS Battalion +5cp
Belisarius Cawl 240
Tech-Priest Enginseer 47
5 Skitarii Rangers 35
5 Skitarii Rangers 35
5 Skitarii Rangers 35
Onager Dunecrawler, Icarus array 130
4 Kastelan Robots, 12 phosphor blasters 440

Astra Militarum: CADIA Battalion +5cp
Company Commander [Warlord] shotgun, Kurov’s Aquila, Grand Strategist 30
Primaris Psyker, psychic maelstrom [7] 46
10 Guardsmen, 8 lasgun, bolter+chainsword, heavy bolter 49
10 Guardsmen, 8 lasgun, bolter+chainsword, mortar 46
10 Guardsmen, 8 lasgun, bolter+chainsword, mortar 46
2 Basilisks, 2 heavy bolters 216

1999 points
11 command points

Suzuteo wrote:Nice report. Sorry I couldn't make it. Was working over the weekend.

Always use Wrath of Mars, even if you don't have to. If you don't have enough CP, you need to bring more for the dakka.

Yeah I configured my list like that the same.

Mars spreahead with two onagers or outrider with 3 Dragoons and robots.

Super heavy with Armiger's and a knight

Guard battalion with phycher though.

Seems arm legit and good enough to practice with it a lot.

Wait the order of companions strat works on all the Armigers in a slot? I thought it could only affect one knight? If so a slot of 3 warglaives or hellverins would be pretty scary with that strategem.

If I'm not mistaken even if you make one group of Armiger's after the initial placement they behave as independent units written in their profile. When I checked

 MrMoustaffa wrote:
Wait the order of companions strat works on all the Armigers in a slot? I thought it could only affect one knight? If so a slot of 3 warglaives or hellverins would be pretty scary with that strategem.

Oh yeah, I'm totally wrong. For some reason the "Companions" part to me made me think it worked like Bonded Oathsmen or something. Nope.