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Sooo....what a second, I'm a bit confused now...

Does a unit being 'battleline' override the maximum number of those types of units you can take in a game?

Like with the Zombie Dragon, can I now take more than 2 (or however many) behemoths in 1000 points because they're battleline?

 godswildcard wrote:
Sooo....what a second, I'm a bit confused now...

Does a unit being 'battleline' override the maximum number of those types of units you can take in a game?

Like with the Zombie Dragon, can I now take more than 2 (or however many) behemoths in 1000 points because they're battleline?

From the Warhammer Age of Sigmar Core Rules FAQ:

Q: In a Pitched Battle, if a unit that is a Behemoth can be taken as Battleline, does that unit still count towards the total number of Behemoths that can be taken in the army?

A: No

 kodos wrote:

 Galas wrote:

-Range: You can have options of sword/X and spears in a unit. The only real difference is: take swords in small units spears in big. For such an obvious choice the game would lose nothing for it being removed.

just to add something that AoS supports but is kind of lost here, you can take 2 small units, one with long range weapons and one with sword+shield
get the one with shields in the first row, and opponents with short range weapons can only attack the unit with better defense while the other unit is save to attack from behind

if this is removed because it is easier for all weapon options being the same, the game will lose on tactical options (and there are not many to begin with)

I do that with my Ogres Ironguts with a front row of gnoblars. Is actually quite funny when people realize they can't hit the ogres and the ogres are killing them at droves. But it would be easier to just allow to mix weapons options in the same unit.

How do you do that? Don't you have to get within 1/2 inch of an enemy model when you charge? So how does that unit in back accomplish that while being behind another unit?

 Ghaz wrote:

 godswildcard wrote:
Sooo....what a second, I'm a bit confused now...

Does a unit being 'battleline' override the maximum number of those types of units you can take in a game?

Like with the Zombie Dragon, can I now take more than 2 (or however many) behemoths in 1000 points because they're battleline?

From the Warhammer Age of Sigmar Core Rules FAQ:

Q: In a Pitched Battle, if a unit that is a Behemoth can be taken as Battleline, does that unit still count towards the total number of Behemoths that can be taken in the army?

A: No

Note this only applies in pitched battles (not meeting engagements if you play that). At 300 points a piece (if they are the same price as in the FEC book) you’d be able to take 3 in a 1k list provided you could field a leader for 100 points. Keep in mind though that your ability to claim objectives would be terrible.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Albino Squirrel wrote:
How do you do that? Don't you have to get within 1/2 inch of an enemy model when you charge? So how does that unit in back accomplish that while being behind another unit?

You have the gnoblars receive the charge. Then, the iron guts are within 3 inches of the unit that charged the gnoblars, so they are allowed to pile in and fight (which they can do because of a 2 inch range).

 Overread wrote:

 Arbitrator wrote:
Fly High but only for Mannlet so I don't imagine it'll be that great in practise.

The ability to leave combat before combat has started is a powerful ability for a keystone unit that might well mobbed. Sure its just him, but he's a huge chunk of power and points in one package. Plus it lets you be a touch reckless and even use him to bait your opponent into moving units to close on him only to leap away.

I think it's cool and thematic while not being over the top, specifically because it is just on him.

 DarkStarSabre wrote:

Sotahullu wrote:

Legion of Night can take Vargheist as battleline for some reason.

Right, so... seems the dynasties and Legions have different 'alt' Battleline units.

Suspect there's 'core' Battleline in the form of Skeletons and Zombies...and then the alt units...

Legion of Night - Vargheist
Legion of Blood - Black Knights
Kastelai Dynasty - Blood Knights
Avengorii Dynasty - Terrorgheists and Zombie Dragons
Vyrkos - Dire Wolves.

A bit wrong here: Dire wolves are universal BL for the faction. Maybe they will get another treatment, like extra cheap wolvies, which will make them my default flavour then.

 godswildcard wrote:
Sooo....what a second, I'm a bit confused now...

Does a unit being 'battleline' override the maximum number of those types of units you can take in a game?

Like with the Zombie Dragon, can I now take more than 2 (or however many) behemoths in 1000 points because they're battleline?

Unless stated otherwise (which has been never, afaIk): if I run 2000 points as Seraphon Thunder Lizard, I can bring 3 Stegas and they won't count as Behemoths since they became BL, but I still can only deploy 4 Behemoths of any other kind. Same happened since Beastclaws have been around.

In first edition being battleline was in addition to counting against the behemoth limit, they changed that with second edition 'tomes so that being battleline is instead of being a behemoth.

This does affect certain scenarios where those models will no longer count as behemoths when it could be beneficial.

 kodos wrote:
viable options =/= perfect balance

Togusa wrote:

Been playing video games for over 30 years. If they can't manage it there, it's never going to happen on the tabletop. There is always one option above the rest that will dominate, and when you nerf it, the next thing will take its place

Which games are you playing?

I mean one weapons dominating its class is normal, but one weapon dominating over all available types is rare
that there is 1 best Sniper Rifle is one thing, but the Sniper Rifle dominating over everything and being better than the full Auto in all situations would just be a bad game

that there is 1 weapon that is the best for a specific situation is one thing, but that 1 generic weapons is better than the specific weapon in the specific situations is bad balancing

and this is were GW's rules writing comes in, were the anti-horde weapons as better at killing monsters than the anti-monster weapons
and this is not something I have seen in most video games or wargame

I play a lot of Hunt: Showdown. Where the Dolche 96 reigns as king over literally every other weapon and has for years now since the game came out of beta.

 His Master's Voice wrote:

 Coenus Scaldingus wrote:
I certainly wouldn't say they "can't manage it there". One of my favourite sets of weapon profiles is probably in the skirmish game Battle Brothers, where each weapon had such specific and different abilities (stun with clubs, bypass shields with flails, destroy shields with axes, parry with swords, spearwall with, well, spears), that it was actually impossible to really compare them.

Well, there's something to be said about rock paper scissor begin the most balanced game ever. It's not a dig against Battle Brothers, it's a great game, but having clear X beats Y beats Z matchups often makes rule sets easy to solve.

Which isn't to say GW rule sets are hard to solve.

That's not remotely what I was describing or what's the case in that game though, at least in my experience. It's not that spears win versus swords or swords win versus spears. They can both very much beat each other, but do so in different ways. Preference will depend on playstyle, and lead into different selection of (in)directly beneficial skills. Some weapons might be more useful against certain opponents, but since you'll be facing them all, you'll need a mixture to deal with them.

That said, a more complex rock-paper-scissors situation doesn't make for a bad wargame either. Hordes of the Things springs to mind (haven't played it yet, just looking into it), with 20 different options of which some are explicitly meant to beat some, and as a result be weak to other options in its very simple combat system. The sheer range of options and potential variation in two opposing armies, plus variation in special skills of certain units outside of combat, makes it near-impossible to have clear best choices though I imagine. If A is strong against B and weak against C, what's the best counter to an army consisting of 1A, 2B, 1C, 1E, 4H and 1L? Plus there's positioning, with different troops also having some variation in movements in different area types, etc. Getting back to AoS/GW, it's a pretty interesting look at how simplified unit types and meaningful special rules can make for a very interesting game that has certainly withstood the test of time. The only issue, however, would be that while it would be boring with fewer options, it seems unfeasible to expand it to cover a much larger and increasingly growing number of options while retaining interesting and meaningful variation. Benefits of a ruleset not tied to new miniature releases and miniature-based sales of course.

Sarouan wrote:

But I agree it's very specific and unlikely to kill him in one phase in all situations...and that sucks for some armies that don't have these tricks anyway and rely heavily on melee still.

Then, it's also one hero unit and in a game where objectives matter.. Having one model escaping death is useless if you lose the game anyway because the rest of your army is dead. Because if Mannfred uses this ability, that means he can't strike at all during this combat phase - and thus, damage no one.

Does bode bad for hopes of 3rd edition toning shooting when game gets more and more units that are super hard to kill with melee. Lumineth fox beasts are virtually invincible to melee and mannfred is only slightly easier

 Ghaz wrote:

 godswildcard wrote:
Sooo....what a second, I'm a bit confused now...

Does a unit being 'battleline' override the maximum number of those types of units you can take in a game?

Like with the Zombie Dragon, can I now take more than 2 (or however many) behemoths in 1000 points because they're battleline?

From the Warhammer Age of Sigmar Core Rules FAQ:

Q: In a Pitched Battle, if a unit that is a Behemoth can be taken as Battleline, does that unit still count towards the total number of Behemoths that can be taken in the army?

A: No

See also Stegageddon for Seraphon.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 CMLR wrote:

 DarkStarSabre wrote:

Sotahullu wrote:

Legion of Night can take Vargheist as battleline for some reason.

Right, so... seems the dynasties and Legions have different 'alt' Battleline units.

Suspect there's 'core' Battleline in the form of Skeletons and Zombies...and then the alt units...

Legion of Night - Vargheist
Legion of Blood - Black Knights
Kastelai Dynasty - Blood Knights
Avengorii Dynasty - Terrorgheists and Zombie Dragons
Vyrkos - Dire Wolves.

A bit wrong here: Dire wolves are universal BL for the faction. Maybe they will get another treatment, like extra cheap wolvies, which will make them my default flavour then.

Good catch. For some reason my brain was not seeing them as battleline proper - would be an interesting change. But suspect they'll probably have a lot of Wolf specific buffs to be honest.

Personally leaning toward Legion of Blood myself for Black Knight battleline - which lets me just blob up the skeletons - much more useful in bigger numbers since the Grand Host of Nagash will no longer be a thing and they've changed how they come back...

Wolves are battleline in LoN, and quite useful ones for filling out those slots with fast cav-equivalents.

The Soulblight book has leaked online.

The Cursed City stuff is still bought as a set Radaukar included but increased by 75 pts. and for the most part the scrolls are the same as the CC booklet or they actually lost some abilities.

Deadwalker Zombies near doubled in cost but are now min/max 20/40 there’s not much difference in the warscroll. EDIT ignore my initial post on cost I was comparing the cost of min 10 with min 20 so obviously they now cost nearly double .

Bat Swarms are gone.

Did they have access to this before for Zombies?


Because I'd say that can make a big difference.

Legion of Blood focus: https://www.warhammer-community.com/2021/05/13/forget-mannfred-here-are-5-reasons-to-serve-queen-neferata-instead/

Oh and nice buff for Skeletons if you go for it (sadly no bows).

 Kanluwen wrote:
Did they have access to this before for Zombies?

Because I'd say that can make a big difference.

Ive edited my post they are now bought in 20s rather than 10s so of course they would cost nearly twice as much! In fact they went down 5pts. When making that comparison.

 DaveC wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:
Did they have access to this before for Zombies?

Because I'd say that can make a big difference.

Ive edited my post they are now bought in 20s rather than 10s so of course they would cost nearly twice as much! In fact they went down 5pts. When making that comparison.

I have actually went bit through these leaks (plenty to talk about) and there is lot of changes to unit prices and sizes.

One thing was that only Deadwalkers can be taken at unit size 40. Other units (deathrattle) are capped at 30 models at most.


Grave Guard are also battleline if Wight King is taken as general with unit size being 10 minimum (not 5 as previously).

Have to say, from cold blooded army player to another cold blooded army, I'm quite excited and a bit jealous.

This many flavours of Vampire list building looks like a refined version from what we got in the Seraphon BT.

Also, now you can seamlessly collect FEC alongside SG (Vampires sound better).

Damn, FEC's SC! is pretty much an unofficial Vampires SC! kit now too, and if your LGS has it, SC! Skeletons also nets you Neffy and Manny.

Cross it out, I'm really jealous of Vampires right now.

There's pretty mixed reactions right now to a lot of the leaks for Soulblight Vampires.

But of course there would be. Every release is so heavily polarized these days, with a silent middle-ground that's actually pretty content with the state of things, content to watch the rest of the Internet go ballistic with perceived slights.

Either way, the Soulblight release still seems... incomplete to me. But, no army is ever 'complete' under GW, else they'd never have anything else to release for it, and they make money by adding new stuff, so we'll see what happens when it's the vampire's turn in the limelight.

Interesting note from leaks is soulblights seems to have been may release from get-go. Points are marked to may 2021. So gw managed to shufle things around enough to get these out on intended montq

 Kanluwen wrote:
Did they have access to this before for Zombies?


Because I'd say that can make a big difference.

The whole grand alliance death has always gotten the 6+, it just changes keyword requirements by army.

Is Nagash in the battle tome or will he now only be able as an option in the Ossiarch book if this one is basically replacing Legions of Nagash?

No wolves on Fenris wrote:
Is Nagash in the battle tome or will he now only be able as an option in the Ossiarch book if this one is basically replacing Legions of Nagash?

He's in there but he's 975pts.

 NinthMusketeer wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:
Did they have access to this before for Zombies?


Because I'd say that can make a big difference.

The whole grand alliance death has always gotten the 6+, it just changes keyword requirements by army.

This one's bit bettter as gravesite marker is also valid providor. Fec only heroes give it. Vampires have 2 markers to provide as well if needed.

It's 4 markers still I think. Just worded oddly. Ie. 2 here, 2 there

 lare2 wrote:

No wolves on Fenris wrote:
Is Nagash in the battle tome or will he now only be able as an option in the Ossiarch book if this one is basically replacing Legions of Nagash?

He's in there but he's 975pts.

Ok. A bit of a price hike but at least he’s there! Have they also kept some of the nighthaunt units LoN had like the spirit hosts and hexwraiths or are they gone and just in the nighthaunt book

No wolves on Fenris wrote:

 lare2 wrote:

No wolves on Fenris wrote:
Is Nagash in the battle tome or will he now only be able as an option in the Ossiarch book if this one is basically replacing Legions of Nagash?

He's in there but he's 975pts.

Ok. A bit of a price hike but at least he’s there! Have they also kept some of the nighthaunt units LoN had like the spirit hosts and hexwraiths or are they gone and just in the nighthaunt book

Zero NH now. You can use them as allies though.

 lare2 wrote:

No wolves on Fenris wrote:
Is Nagash in the battle tome or will he now only be able as an option in the Ossiarch book if this one is basically replacing Legions of Nagash?

He's in there but he's 975pts.

Says something about spellcasting in next edition methinks...

 lare2 wrote:

No wolves on Fenris wrote:

 lare2 wrote:

No wolves on Fenris wrote:
Is Nagash in the battle tome or will he now only be able as an option in the Ossiarch book if this one is basically replacing Legions of Nagash?

He's in there but he's 975pts.

Ok. A bit of a price hike but at least he’s there! Have they also kept some of the nighthaunt units LoN had like the spirit hosts and hexwraiths or are they gone and just in the nighthaunt book

Zero NH now. You can use them as allies though.

Thanks for the info. Have loads of WHFB Vampire Counts models that I use for AoS in a Legions army and was only going to get the Soulblight book and the new blood knights, fell bats and maybe some of the new characters but my main reason for the army is Nagash so if he wasn’t in there then I’d sell it all and get the Bonereapers.