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 admironheart wrote:
so what are some easy to plan for strategems/psychics and unit combinations.

I'm going with Kraken.

So I have the Trygon bringin up a brood of Warriors and going to use the double shooting stratagem on them.

Can you bring up more than 1 brood/unit.....the FAQ had some changes and it confused me somewhat.

With Jormangundr, a trygon can bring in more than 1 unit, by using the 'The Enemy Below' stratagem. Other hive fleets can only bring in 1 unit per trygon.

 admironheart wrote:

Also IS there anyway to bring in Genestealer unit set up with Infestation Nodes with a different deployment or ONLY thru that ability?

Nope. As it stands, infestation nodes aren't much good.
Genestealers are most commonly used by slingshotting them across the board using one or both of the Swarmlords 'Hive Commander' ability, and the Kraken 'Opportunistic Advance' stratagem. Allowing for easy turn 1 charges.

 admironheart wrote:

I see a lot of rules about falling out and charging....but do any of our units have a strat or option to fall out and shoot? I don't think I saw that?

FLY units can fall back and shoot. So kraken flyrants are pretty good. Able to fall back and then both shoot and charge.
We don't have too many other FLY units able to take much advantage from falling back and shooting though. Gargoyles and Harpies mostly.

Trygon only brings in one infantry unit. Honestly though, with kraken you don't need to or want to deep strike your genestealers. Just Double advance them forward and/or have swarmlord in your list to move them again in the shooting phase.

You can still use a trygon to bring in warriors of course for double threat saturation.

As for the genestealers infestation node question......Well im not sure but I think its possible to still bring them in with the Pheromone trail stratagem if you have a lector on the table.

Don't worry about using strats on termagaunts. The only halfway viable ones are double shooting with devilgaunts (the good gun), or acid blood if khorne berserkers or enemy genestealers are fixing to reap them.

The extra damage strat is really only super good on an exocrine. Dakkafex have no AP so usually will be shooting at infantry and wont need 2 damage.

Page 119 – Pheromone Trail
Add the following sentence:
‘You cannot use this Stratagem to affect a unit of
reinforcements being set up by the Genestealer’s
Infestation ability, or that are added to your army due to
a unit’s ability.’

yup read that one....and thanks all.


Any other good combos that are simple?

 admironheart wrote:
so what are some easy to plan for strategems/psychics and unit combinations.

I'm going with Kraken.

So I have the Trygon bringin up a brood of Warriors and going to use the double shooting stratagem on them.

Can you bring up more than 1 brood/unit.....the FAQ had some changes and it confused me somewhat.

Also IS there anyway to bring in Genestealer unit set up with Infestation Nodes with a different deployment or ONLY thru that ability?

I was thinking the double advanced strat for a large blob of Termagaunts with fleshborers plus the extra 1wound stratagem

Since I have a quad devourer loadout carnifex...the strat that lets 1 extra damage could come in use essentially doubling the wounds....a good use would be vs FNP type units/armies.

I see a lot of rules about falling out and charging....but do any of our units have a strat or option to fall out and shoot? I don't think I saw that?

Sweet summer child, such marvels we have for you.

 Eihnlazer wrote:
if marines can get storm shields for 2 points I don't see why not.

Which I find nonsensical, because now SS are a must have for marine players.

And even if they aren't for some reason I'm missing in Space Marine balance, 3+ armor for 1ppm would be a must have in Tyranid Warriors.

 Amishprn86 wrote:
Dont forget it was popular b.c players had 5-7 Flyrants from 7th ed, as it was the only playable list, 5-7 Flyrants, rippers, spores, then 300pts of flavor, Malocks, or Lictors, or etc..

No. People took piles of flyrants because it was rocking the euro meta. But it turns out that ITC format doesn’t support them the way ETC rules did

stratigo wrote:

 Amishprn86 wrote:
Dont forget it was popular b.c players had 5-7 Flyrants from 7th ed, as it was the only playable list, 5-7 Flyrants, rippers, spores, then 300pts of flavor, Malocks, or Lictors, or etc..

No. People took piles of flyrants because it was rocking the euro meta. But it turns out that ITC format doesn’t support them the way ETC rules did

With this in mind, "Tyranid players being unable to adapt" has never sounded so accurate.

To be honest, I agree with a lot of the comments saying that's just a 40k player in general thing though.

stratigo wrote:

 Amishprn86 wrote:
Dont forget it was popular b.c players had 5-7 Flyrants from 7th ed, as it was the only playable list, 5-7 Flyrants, rippers, spores, then 300pts of flavor, Malocks, or Lictors, or etc..

No. People took piles of flyrants because it was rocking the euro meta. But it turns out that ITC format doesn’t support them the way ETC rules did

No, we still had them all over the place

I don't think the 6th edition book was actually that bad in 6th edition, but it wasn't out very long before 7th dropped and gutted a lot of the rules that the book was designed around. The Smash usr (the main source of anti-tank) was nerfed from half attacks (rounding up) to just 1 attack which made most of the melee bugs suddenly unable to deal with high AV vehicles, flying monstrous creatures lost the ability to drop to the ground and charge which made the Harpy/Crone/melee flyrant mostly non-viable, and the psychic phase overhaul made Shadow in the Warp mostly useless as psychic defense since psychic tests were uncoupled from leadership and the casting modifiers imposed by Shadow in the Warp had no effect on the 7th edition warp charge system. Add in the surge of high rate of fire anti-everything firepower that accompanied 7th and anything on the ground basically couldn't survive.

The main problem the 5th edition book had was it effectively had to work with a single FOC while everyone else had 2 slots per FOC slot thanks to the way dedicated transports worked at the time. If you couldn't do 1 unit (ideally a troops unit, since only troops could score in 5th) + 1 transport with respectable guns in each slot you weren't really competitive in 5th. The edition also was very unfavorable for melee-based anti-tank solutions since the to-hit requirements were built into how far the vehicle had moved the prior turn rather than the user's weapon skill.

On a mildly related tangent to the above rambling, I'm wondering if the old 5th edition-style Tervigon list might be viable in the new matched play missions in this years chapter approved. Scoring is done each turn so the ability to keep a large scoring unit on an objective in the mid-field all game via replenishment might be quite a powerful tool to have and they did receive a fairly nice price drop.

Also in regards to Pheromone Trail, I think the only thing it works on in Matched Play is the Endless Swarm stratagem, which already has some rather nice deployment rules of its own if you can afford to set aside the points to use it (It is nice with a proper swarm list that doesn't have much fear of being tabled, plus is great for getting a big squad of gaunts in the enemy's backfield). It is more useful in narrative play where several missions have either reserves or reinforcements that can be redirected.

Don't forget the Vector Strike nerf! Crone was one of our main sources of AT and I don't think anything was hit as hard by the VS Nerf than him, he was designed around having a special Vector Strike. And he was never compensated for that Nerf either

I wouldn’t mind big flying things like hive crones, harpies and other stuff like heldrakes getting a version of vector strike back. They’re kind of weak as is and it would be a nice boost.

It should also be noted that 5th edition had the infamus damage table for vehicles. Essenstially giving them yet another save roll that was far better then feel no pain.

5tt edition in general was plagued bybsome really strong undercosted units (vendetta). The fact that you strike lastvif you charge through terrain. So much was bad.

When 6th edition came the game got some very unhealthy flying units. (Vendetta.) Nd moat armies did not get good awnsers for them.

Ive been putting a lot of consideration into what to do post CA, because theres a loooot of cool stuff to do now. here is where ive settled. All Kraken.


--Battalion 1--

Malanthrope - WL, Synaptic Lynchpin
One One Eye

17 Genestealers
10 Termagants
10 Termagants

6 Hive Guard
Lictor
Lictor
Lictor

2 Carnifex - full Devourers, Acid Maw, Bone Mace, AG
2 Carnifex - full Devourers, Acid Maw, Bone Mace, AG


--Battalion 2--

Flyrant - MRC, Devourers, Toxin Sacs
Flyrant - MRC, Devourers, Toxin Sacs

10 Termagants
10 Termagants
10 Termagants



I still really like Flyrants under Malanthrope, I think I would like to fit a 3rd, but it doesnt really fit and its not as important as the other pieces. Ill miss my Hormagant squad but ill make do, 50 Kraken Termagants hold a fair bit of ground and make up for utility with points efficiency instead.
Lictors are just doper Rippers right now imo and yes ill take 3 of that, I cant think of a situation where they wont be great.


I dont think its the strongest possible way to play Nids right now, i think thats almost definitely Swarmlord with 40 stealers plus a bunch of Cult allies, but I think that this will be more enjoyable for me right now and also more suited to my platsyle.

 First Among Gators wrote:
Ive been putting a lot of consideration into what to do post CA, because theres a loooot of cool stuff to do now. here is where ive settled. All Kraken.


--Battalion 1--

Malanthrope - WL, Synaptic Lynchpin
One One Eye

17 Genestealers
10 Termagants
10 Termagants

6 Hive Guard
Lictor
Lictor
Lictor

2 Carnifex - full Devourers, Acid Maw, Bone Mace, AG
2 Carnifex - full Devourers, Acid Maw, Bone Mace, AG


--Battalion 2--

Flyrant - MRC, Devourers, Toxin Sacs
Flyrant - MRC, Devourers, Toxin Sacs

10 Termagants
10 Termagants
10 Termagants



I still really like Flyrants under Malanthrope, I think I would like to fit a 3rd, but it doesnt really fit and its not as important as the other pieces. Ill miss my Hormagant squad but ill make do, 50 Kraken Termagants hold a fair bit of ground and make up for utility with points efficiency instead.
Lictors are just doper Rippers right now imo and yes ill take 3 of that, I cant think of a situation where they wont be great.


I dont think its the strongest possible way to play Nids right now, i think thats almost definitely Swarmlord with 40 stealers plus a bunch of Cult allies, but I think that this will be more enjoyable for me right now and also more suited to my platsyle.

I like your list, but I’d pay the extra 20 points to have both dakka fexes with their own -1 to hit, so they can stay away from the malanthrope. One stealer and both t sacs on flyrants is all you d need to drop

addnid wrote:
I like your list, but I’d pay the extra 20 points to have both dakka fexes with their own -1 to hit, so they can stay away from the malanthrope. One stealer and both t sacs on flyrants is all you d need to drop

I hear you - but Theres 4 Carnifexes not 2. Malanthrope is saving me 40 pts worth Spore Cysts there in his cost plus providing that same benefit to the Flyrants and of course Stealers. It does translate to a big ball of claws orbiting the malanthrope, but it covers the ground quickly thanks to Kraken and they can get stuck into it up close.

Its not feasible on the table though.


You wont have LOS with those fex's trying to orbit the malanthrope.

 Eihnlazer wrote:
Its not feasible on the table though.


You wont have LOS with those fex's trying to orbit the malanthrope.

You only need it turn 1 tho. with -1 to hit, and if you go second, +1 to armor, it doesnt matter after that. Once you hit turn 2, the Malathrope is more about Synapse then the -1 to hit. You are paying for it over a Neurothrope and Venomthropes (180pts) if you want -1 to hit on many units. Having Flyrants -1 (-2 for kraken relic), so really you are saving 40pts but losing out on powers.

On the topic of Nid players being bad:

I think in general, 8th edition has brought in a huge influx of noobs who don't have much background or context. For example, just look on /r/warhammercompetitive or on dakka's general topics section. You see lots of questions that should be easily answerable by anybody who's built 3 lists or played 3 games.

In addition, the transition to 8th took Nids from a bottom shelf army (at least from a casual perspective; obviously we had some competitive builds in 7th) to an army with an actually quite solid codex. Somehow (I think GW and FLG are both to blame with their ridiculous hype articles), this frequently translates to "every unit is now good". I can't count how many times I see threads (especially on reddit) where people talk about how "Warriors are pretty competitive", or "you can't go wrong with Nidzilla". I don't know if these are keyboard generals or what, but these generalizations are terrible; Warriors still get blown off the table (spamming them can lead to better results), and for the most part, our melee MCs are still awful (I can't even bring the Haruspex in casual games, the thing pisses me off so much.)

So overall, I think you have this weird gestalt thing where noobs perpetuate bad generalizations and it makes Nid players look dumb overall. For the other crappy 7th edition armies, I don't think this happened with DE because DE got a really strong book overall, Codex: CSM is pretty generally acknowledged to be weak, and it's still too early to tell with Orks. Anyway, just my two cents.

 Eihnlazer wrote:
Its not feasible on the table though.


You wont have LOS with those fex's trying to orbit the malanthrope.

Im not sure what you mean. These aren't long range heavy weapons platforms, they are 18 inch range dakka boys who can chop it up in assault. They advance turn 1, Malanthrope protects them and they snapshot at anything in range. Next turn they push forward and unload, and threaten to roll. into melee with anything with a good enough save to not be scared by the 120 or so Devourer shots.

It will play differently in dif match ups but that's the basic plan. Low LoS and terrain heavy tables help it in my experience. maybe highly narrow movement lanes might be a speed bump but it sounds like I'd have enough terrain there that I can hide some out of LoS anyway


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Amishprn86 wrote:

 Eihnlazer wrote:
Its not feasible on the table though.


You wont have LOS with those fex's trying to orbit the malanthrope.

You only need it turn 1 tho. with -1 to hit, and if you go second, +1 to armor, it doesnt matter after that. Once you hit turn 2, the Malathrope is more about Synapse then the -1 to hit. You are paying for it over a Neurothrope and Venomthropes (180pts) if you want -1 to hit on many units. Having Flyrants -1 (-2 for kraken relic), so really you are saving 40pts but losing out on powers.

yeah basically this ^^


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I think Knights could be a problem but I think I may have just the right amount of resilience, board control, and offense, to clear out everything supporting and just take the field. Maybe crack a single Knight under weight of fire or something.

I'm mostly concerned about a bunch of Boyz or or Hormagants or something charging a Carnifex and then just piling into the whole circle. But I think (hope) with 50 Termagants for screening, a bunch of Stealers held back plus Lictors ready to come and lend a hand, and the fact that Malanthrope and 2 flyrants can fall back over each and make space for the Carnifexes to get out, I don't think that this will be a match up losing thing. Though it may mean playing cagey and the challenge will be making the right decision of how far to extend without giving up too many objectives. I'm confident in my list and I'll let you know how it's perform!

I think one the things players forget about when grading Toxicrenes is their usefulness in getting the Feeder Tendrils strat off. Also, not all their usefulness is built into the combat stats that degrade but also Hypertoxic Miasma, Acid Blood and shooting into other combats. Just make sure to bring other scary monsters in your list and your opponent will have some tough choices to make.

So I like to look at Monstrous Rending Claws for my Hive Tyrant. ....It costs 0
the stock Monstrous Scything Talons has a cost of ....15 True they are marginally better, but If I can shave points....why not.

SO Ive looked everywhere.

Are there any MONSTROUS Rending Claws available for hive tyrants? The ones for zoanathropes, Warriors and Brood Lords look a bit small and silly.

Was there ever an OOP set of them?

you don't model the monstrous rending claws. You use the flying hive tyrant model and his wings are the MRC.

I have magnets for the wings. If I don't take the flyrant option I think the HQ comes in at under 160 points

Just curious why are you using a walkrant if you want a cheap HQ?

Nuerothropes, broodlords, and Tprimes are all cheaper, and the first 2 are psychers.


Litterally only reason to run a walkrant is if your doing a Monster mash theme with nothing but Walkrants and Carnifex's (mabey an exocrine or tyranofex).

 Eihnlazer wrote:
Just curious why are you using a walkrant if you want a cheap HQ?

Nuerothropes, broodlords, and Tprimes are all cheaper, and the first 2 are psychers.


Litterally only reason to run a walkrant is if your doing a Monster mash theme with nothing but Walkrants and Carnifex's (mabey an exocrine or tyranofex).

Because the other models don't carry a venom cannon and cannot have 90% of our relics. Also that huge synapse actually matters.

A walkrant for his cost is extremely tanky, while a flyrant starts to get into glass cannon territory. You take flyrants if you want to rush your opponent, which is our preferred play style, but nids can actually build durability based lists with leviathan and tanky models which also work decently and in that case you want the walkrants. They won't work at a GT because if you can't jump at the throath of a Castellan you are in big trouble, but many players will never see a GT and for a local tournament a (relatively) slow Leviathan list does also work well.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Gene St. Ealer wrote:
On the topic of Nid players being bad:

I think in general, 8th edition has brought in a huge influx of noobs who don't have much background or context. For example, just look on /r/warhammercompetitive or on dakka's general topics section. You see lots of questions that should be easily answerable by anybody who's built 3 lists or played 3 games.

In addition, the transition to 8th took Nids from a bottom shelf army (at least from a casual perspective; obviously we had some competitive builds in 7th) to an army with an actually quite solid codex. Somehow (I think GW and FLG are both to blame with their ridiculous hype articles), this frequently translates to "every unit is now good". I can't count how many times I see threads (especially on reddit) where people talk about how "Warriors are pretty competitive", or "you can't go wrong with Nidzilla". I don't know if these are keyboard generals or what, but these generalizations are terrible; Warriors still get blown off the table (spamming them can lead to better results), and for the most part, our melee MCs are still awful (I can't even bring the Haruspex in casual games, the thing pisses me off so much.)

So overall, I think you have this weird gestalt thing where noobs perpetuate bad generalizations and it makes Nid players look dumb overall. For the other crappy 7th edition armies, I don't think this happened with DE because DE got a really strong book overall, Codex: CSM is pretty generally acknowledged to be weak, and it's still too early to tell with Orks. Anyway, just my two cents.

Like i just said, don't apply the ultra competitive logic to everything that is said on this board. For the great majority of players the true 40K is not the GT one. I you don't play at the maximum levels of competition then it is true that almost everything nid works.

 admironheart wrote:

Are there any MONSTROUS Rending Claws available for hive tyrants? The ones for zoanathropes, Warriors and Brood Lords look a bit small and silly.

Was there ever an OOP set of them?

The third edition hive tyrant model came with rending claws on its weapon sprue. I think it's the reason why they're still an option for tyrants.

 admironheart wrote:
I have magnets for the wings. If I don't take the flyrant option I think the HQ comes in at under 160 points

The feet are actually weapons, they are Scything Talons or Rending Claws.

I instead added on more claws to mine

Spoletta wrote:

 Eihnlazer wrote:
Just curious why are you using a walkrant if you want a cheap HQ?

Nuerothropes, broodlords, and Tprimes are all cheaper, and the first 2 are psychers.


Litterally only reason to run a walkrant is if your doing a Monster mash theme with nothing but Walkrants and Carnifex's (mabey an exocrine or tyranofex).

Because the other models don't carry a venom cannon and cannot have 90% of our relics. Also that huge synapse actually matters.

A walkrant for his cost is extremely tanky, while a flyrant starts to get into glass cannon territory. You take flyrants if you want to rush your opponent, which is our preferred play style, but nids can actually build durability based lists with leviathan and tanky models which also work decently and in that case you want the walkrants. They won't work at a GT because if you can't jump at the throath of a Castellan you are in big trouble, but many players will never see a GT and for a local tournament a (relatively) slow Leviathan list does also work well.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Gene St. Ealer wrote:
On the topic of Nid players being bad:

I think in general, 8th edition has brought in a huge influx of noobs who don't have much background or context. For example, just look on /r/warhammercompetitive or on dakka's general topics section. You see lots of questions that should be easily answerable by anybody who's built 3 lists or played 3 games.

In addition, the transition to 8th took Nids from a bottom shelf army (at least from a casual perspective; obviously we had some competitive builds in 7th) to an army with an actually quite solid codex. Somehow (I think GW and FLG are both to blame with their ridiculous hype articles), this frequently translates to "every unit is now good". I can't count how many times I see threads (especially on reddit) where people talk about how "Warriors are pretty competitive", or "you can't go wrong with Nidzilla". I don't know if these are keyboard generals or what, but these generalizations are terrible; Warriors still get blown off the table (spamming them can lead to better results), and for the most part, our melee MCs are still awful (I can't even bring the Haruspex in casual games, the thing pisses me off so much.)

So overall, I think you have this weird gestalt thing where noobs perpetuate bad generalizations and it makes Nid players look dumb overall. For the other crappy 7th edition armies, I don't think this happened with DE because DE got a really strong book overall, Codex: CSM is pretty generally acknowledged to be weak, and it's still too early to tell with Orks. Anyway, just my two cents.

Like i just said, don't apply the ultra competitive logic to everything that is said on this board. For the great majority of players the true 40K is not the GT one. I you don't play at the maximum levels of competition then it is true that almost everything nid works.

I can't agree with this though. In no universe is a Haruspex killing 16 points of guardsmen going to let you compete in a casual game. I don't think we have many units that are too bad for casual, but off the top of my head:

Haruspex
Maleceptor
Dimachaeron
Hive Crone
Mawloc

These things all have no redeeming values. I'll note that there are several things with almost no redeeming value (Tervigon, Lictor, Tyrannocyte, etc.) that I left off the list. I get that it's fun to find niches with bad units, and I do that all the time. Like others have said, the Toxicrene doesn't suck if you can get it into combat before it's been degraded. But the things on the above list are a different tier -- abjectly abysmal. I just have to stop and think; is there another codex in the game with specialty units who are gimped at their specialty? That is, expensive melee specialists who get ~4 attacks and hit on 4+s. I have a lot of codices, and I can't think of a unit in another book resembling the "nonbo" status of the Haruspex. So many special rules -- so few that work!

Anyway, that whole screed was a little off topic. But I will venture to disagree; Nids have plenty of units that *will* gimp you in casual games and will underperform even against suboptimal lists.

those first 5 units I agree, some of the worst in the Dex if not the very worst.but there's no way Lictors are anywhere near there anymore. lictors are a top unit now. tyrant guard, now that's something really bad