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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/03/06 14:24:25
Subject: An alternative view of the Republican primaries, and on Mitt Romney
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Consigned to the Grim Darkness
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http://www.economist.com/blogs/democracyinamerica/2012/03/mitt-romney
Mormonism and authenticity
Mar 5th 2012, 21:37 by W.W. | IOWA CITY
WALTER KIRN'S column in GQ on Mitt Romney and Mormonism is to my mind far and away the most interesting meditation on the subject this campaign season. Unlike most commentators, Mr Kirn, who was an observant Mormon for a few years after his family converted to Mormonism when he was a teen, understands that the chipper public face of Mormonism reflects this country's history of hostility to its most successful native religion, and that Mr Romney's Mormonism therefore acts as a sort of guarantee of his ideological moderation:
They can't win for losing, the Mormons. Or win for winning. When Romney prevailed in Michigan, the hydra-headed pundit beast that has devoured cable news was quick to pronounce the accomplishment underwhelming, a tiny step forward that followed some big steps back and preceded, it was predicted, some future steps sideways (i.e., yet another Gingrich comeback). In the language of EZ literary criticism that the beast now favors when explaining stuff, the win was interpreted as another episode in a larger ongoing 'narrative' about Romney's failure to 'fire up the base' and 'inspire passion among evangelicals.' That leaving such a base unfired up amounts to a great public service went unremarked upon. The biggest story of the campaign so far—the simple miracle of Romney's survival as an exotic spiritual outsider in a party of mega-church populist orthodoxy—was missed again. No, the fellow may not inspire Big Love, but he's gotten along on Big Like, and that's surprising.
The irony is that Romney's fringy Mormonism, much like JFK's Catholicism, insures against him going too far out. Santorum, for one, may be able to delude himself that his beliefs are normal and widely shared and that policies based on them are moral givens. Romney can't afford to think that way... It's only when Mormonism's teachings accord with those of the broader religious right, as they do in the case of homosexuality, that a public figure from the faith can hazard writing them into law. That's scary enough for some folks, and it should be, but Romney the centrist won't go there, I suspect—not if he's actually elected president. As the bearer of Mormonism's long-standing yearning for mainstream modern acceptance, he'd be well advised to sit out the Culture Wars and leave them to more established bands of bigots.
I think Mr Kirn's right that Mr Romney's mere survival, despite the "mega-church populist orthodoxy" of today's Republican Party, is remarkable in itself and deserves greater recognition. And there's a great deal of merit to Mr Kirn's insight that Mr Romney has to be careful not to appear motivated by anything other than the most hazily generic religious conviction. Mr Santorum obviously does not hesitate to argue for his favoured policies on narrowly sectarian grounds. In contrast, America's present wariness of Mormonism, which is indeed analogous to mid-century wariness of Catholicism, requires that Mr Romney argue his case on grounds acceptable to a relatively wide range of right-leaning types. Because Mr Romney cannot deploy straight-up Christian rhetoric without drawing unwanted attention to his faith, he compensates with a combination of twee sentimentality about family and a forced, almost hysterical American exceptionalism, both of which I think contribute to the widespread perception of Mr Romney's phoniness. Mr Kirn brings to our attention the possibility that it is a mistake to think that Mr Romney has struggled because of his perceived inauthenticity. Rather, Mr Romney has survived despite his Mormonism for many of the same reasons he seems a bit fake. A fully authentic Mitt Romney would be a frankly Mormon Mitt Romney, and that guy wouldn't stand a chance in a Republican primary.
Your opinions? I dunno if I agree entirely, but it does seem that the media in general favors anyone not-Romney because it makes for a more interesting narrative rather than for any ideological or factual reason (such as popularity).
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The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/03/06 14:33:49
Subject: An alternative view of the Republican primaries, and on Mitt Romney
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Servoarm Flailing Magos
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Never in the history of mankind have men tried so hard to lose a presidential election.
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Ever thought 40k would be a lot better with bears?
Codex: Bears.
NOW WITH MR BIGGLES AND HIS AMAZING FLYING CONTRAPTION |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/03/06 14:39:46
Subject: An alternative view of the Republican primaries, and on Mitt Romney
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5th God of Chaos! (Yea'rly!)
The Great State of Texas
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I like howw he article makes a religious attack without making a religious attack. I guess he's leaving the direct attacks on mormonism to the Washington Post and ABC.
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-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/03/06 14:41:24
Subject: An alternative view of the Republican primaries, and on Mitt Romney
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Consigned to the Grim Darkness
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Joey, your understanding of the US, its laws, its culture, its economy, and so much else about the US has consistently proven to be just abysmally low. I don't think anyone here is really going to take you seriously when you say that. Frazzled wrote:I like howw he article makes a religious attack without making a religious attack. I guess he's leaving the direct attacks on mormonism to the Washington Post and ABC.
Yeah, that's the part I really don't like about it.
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The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/03/06 14:44:20
Subject: An alternative view of the Republican primaries, and on Mitt Romney
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Hangin' with Gork & Mork
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Personally I'm still mulling over most successful native religion
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/03/06 14:45:29
Amidst the mists and coldest frosts he thrusts his fists against the posts and still insists he sees the ghosts.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/03/06 14:44:32
Subject: An alternative view of the Republican primaries, and on Mitt Romney
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5th God of Chaos! (Yea'rly!)
The Great State of Texas
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Then why did you post it? Romney's whole shtick is about that he's competent and has run a business. He's not offering big dreams nor a religious agenda.
Its all about the greenbacks for Romney.
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-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/03/06 14:45:17
Subject: An alternative view of the Republican primaries, and on Mitt Romney
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Warplord Titan Princeps of Tzeentch
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Frazzled wrote:I like howw he article makes a religious attack without making a religious attack. I guess he's leaving the direct attacks on mormonism to the Washington Post and ABC.
Yup. It's the infamous "dog whistle" politics.
I'd prefer if the DNC just kept up with the "religious people are crazy" attack line.
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text removed by Moderation team. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/03/06 14:45:38
Subject: An alternative view of the Republican primaries, and on Mitt Romney
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Confessor Of Sins
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Ahtman wrote:Frazzled wrote:I like howw he article makes a religious attack without making a religious attack.
Pointing out that orthodox conservative Christians may have some different ideas than Mormons constitutes an attack?
Personally I'm still mulling over most successful native religion
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Stop attacking people Sir!
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/03/06 14:52:52
Subject: An alternative view of the Republican primaries, and on Mitt Romney
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Consigned to the Grim Darkness
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Frazzled wrote:Then why did you post it?
Boredom, mostly.
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The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/03/06 14:56:23
Subject: An alternative view of the Republican primaries, and on Mitt Romney
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5th God of Chaos! (Yea'rly!)
The Great State of Texas
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Meh, better ways to attack Romney.
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-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/03/06 15:12:13
Subject: An alternative view of the Republican primaries, and on Mitt Romney
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Dwarf High King with New Book of Grudges
United States
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Frazzled wrote:Meh, better ways to attack Romney.
This is an attack on Romney?
I guess if "This guy is Mormon, so he can't run on religion." is an attack.
If anything the biggest problem with the article is its over-emphasis on the weight of religion in Republican politics, especially present Republican politics.
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Life does not cease to be funny when people die any more than it ceases to be serious when people laugh. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/03/06 15:15:18
Subject: An alternative view of the Republican primaries, and on Mitt Romney
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Servoarm Flailing Magos
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Melissia wrote:Joey, your understanding of the US, its laws, its culture, its economy, and so much else about the US has consistently proven to be just abysmally low. I don't think anyone here is really going to take you seriously when you say that.
The BBC reported that all the candidates were below Obama in the opinion polls, is this incorrect?
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Ever thought 40k would be a lot better with bears?
Codex: Bears.
NOW WITH MR BIGGLES AND HIS AMAZING FLYING CONTRAPTION |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/03/06 15:21:59
Subject: An alternative view of the Republican primaries, and on Mitt Romney
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5th God of Chaos! (Yea'rly!)
The Great State of Texas
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Joey wrote:Melissia wrote:Joey, your understanding of the US, its laws, its culture, its economy, and so much else about the US has consistently proven to be just abysmally low. I don't think anyone here is really going to take you seriously when you say that.
The BBC reported that all the candidates were below Obama in the opinion polls, is this incorrect?
Romney beats him in head to head comparison. Thats why the Obama camp is keeping up the shelling.
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-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/03/06 15:23:24
Subject: An alternative view of the Republican primaries, and on Mitt Romney
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Servoarm Flailing Magos
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Google says obama is ahead.
http://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/2012/president/us/general_election_romney_vs_obama-1171.html
http://inagist.com/RasmussenPoll/177041171200221184/
If there's a poll putting Romney ahead of Obama, I haven't seen it.
Since Romney is the only person capable of winning the presidency, and even he is behind in the polls, I stand by my previous statement.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/03/06 15:24:58
Ever thought 40k would be a lot better with bears?
Codex: Bears.
NOW WITH MR BIGGLES AND HIS AMAZING FLYING CONTRAPTION |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/03/06 15:24:42
Subject: An alternative view of the Republican primaries, and on Mitt Romney
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Dwarf High King with New Book of Grudges
United States
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Frazzled wrote:
Romney beats him in head to head comparison. Thats why the Obama camp is keeping up the shelling.
By approval scores, or in a forced choice?
By forced choice, Romney trails by ~4 points. By approval they run about even, with one taking a lead depending on the poll in question.
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Life does not cease to be funny when people die any more than it ceases to be serious when people laugh. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/03/06 15:25:24
Subject: An alternative view of the Republican primaries, and on Mitt Romney
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5th God of Chaos! (Yea'rly!)
The Great State of Texas
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Gallup says otherwise. Google has given money to the Obama campaign.
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-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/03/06 15:28:04
Subject: An alternative view of the Republican primaries, and on Mitt Romney
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Servoarm Flailing Magos
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Frazzled wrote:Gallup says otherwise. Google has given money to the Obama campaign.
Got a link for that? Gallup website isn't very well laid out.
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Ever thought 40k would be a lot better with bears?
Codex: Bears.
NOW WITH MR BIGGLES AND HIS AMAZING FLYING CONTRAPTION |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/03/06 15:30:20
Subject: An alternative view of the Republican primaries, and on Mitt Romney
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Dwarf High King with New Book of Grudges
United States
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Frazzled wrote:Gallup says otherwise. Google has given money to the Obama campaign.
That link is to RCP, which reports statistics collected by other organizations.
Google is only relevant because that's how Joey found the RCP link.
You are right that Gallup's trial heat has Romney at +4, though. Automatically Appended Next Post: Joey wrote:Frazzled wrote:Gallup says otherwise. Google has given money to the Obama campaign.
Got a link for that? Gallup website isn't very well laid out.
Here.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/03/06 15:30:42
Life does not cease to be funny when people die any more than it ceases to be serious when people laugh. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/03/06 15:32:43
Subject: An alternative view of the Republican primaries, and on Mitt Romney
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5th God of Chaos! (Yea'rly!)
The Great State of Texas
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Thanks. Joey is right, their site is a bit of a pain.
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-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/03/06 15:34:16
Subject: An alternative view of the Republican primaries, and on Mitt Romney
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Warplord Titan Princeps of Tzeentch
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Obama should be winning against Romney right now, most of the Republican field has been focusing on eachother while Obama can focus on his own messaging and attacking the Republicans.
It's actually a problem for the President that he's not beating Romney by more, he should be up 10-15 points.
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text removed by Moderation team. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/03/06 15:47:41
Subject: An alternative view of the Republican primaries, and on Mitt Romney
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Dwarf High King with New Book of Grudges
United States
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biccat wrote:Obama should be winning against Romney right now, most of the Republican field has been focusing on eachother while Obama can focus on his own messaging and attacking the Republicans.
It's actually a problem for the President that he's not beating Romney by more, he should be up 10-15 points.
Depending on the poll you consult, Obama is ahead of Romney by roughly that margin, and ahead of a generic Republican by about half that.
That being said, pre-general polls aren't terribly important as they tend to be reflections of the political "brand" of any given candidate rather than the candidate himself. This is why you tend to see rough agreement between "incumbent vs. generic X" and the incumbent vs the perceived front runner.
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Life does not cease to be funny when people die any more than it ceases to be serious when people laugh. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/03/06 17:05:17
Subject: An alternative view of the Republican primaries, and on Mitt Romney
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Consigned to the Grim Darkness
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The polling becomes more accurate the closer it gets to election usuallyo, I think? Correct me if I'm wrong, Dogma.
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The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/03/06 17:08:03
Subject: An alternative view of the Republican primaries, and on Mitt Romney
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Dwarf High King with New Book of Grudges
United States
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Melissia wrote:The polling becomes more accurate the closer it gets to election usuallyo, I think? Correct me if I'm wrong, Dogma.
Generally, yes. The argument goes that, barring significant crises, within a month of the election most people have decided if they intend to vote, and who they intend to vote for.
Also, by that time you have reams of data, so you can usually pick out anomalous results.
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Life does not cease to be funny when people die any more than it ceases to be serious when people laugh. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/03/06 17:25:59
Subject: An alternative view of the Republican primaries, and on Mitt Romney
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Fixture of Dakka
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Frazzled wrote:Meh, better ways to attack Romney.
True, it's all nothing he hasn't heard or dealt with before in some fashion.
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