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Just something I've been musing over for a while. It bugs me, on a number of level, that Chaos Space Marines are just evil Space Marines. I'd like to see a greater difference between the loyalists and the renegades for a number of reasons; some of which are listed below.

1) The background portrays the two forces as radically different, but the playing style is roughly similar.

2) Metagame basis: We lose a MEq army and gain something different.

3) Logical inconsistencies on the number of chaos space marines.

CSM are cool, in my opinion, because they are simultaneously fighting a losing battle; while still remaining a huge and potent threat.

Each CSM should be better than a loyalist marine; and play very differently. Here's a few rough suggestions.

a) Renegade's armour is not as good as loyalists. 4+ save. Balance the resilience by giving each CSM two wounds. Immediately, a very different army starts to emerge.

c) Chaos Space Marines should be roughly equivalent to Space Marine lower-level heroes, with 2W, 2A; WS5; and access to a greater range of weaponry.

d) Since there are so few of them (relatively speaking), allow only two squads of them (5?15) as troops. Others can be bought in elites, FA, HS etc. This means if you desperately want a pure CSM force, you can ? but it'll be a small, elite force; somewhere between a SM army and a Terminator army. Encourage a variety of other troops, similar to the LatD force ? mutants, cultists etc.

e) Chosen should be equivalent to SM commanders, and far less common than now. The background paints them as rulers of whole planets... hardly the veteran sergeants we see at the mo.

Thoughts on these initial musings? Do people like the 'bad mirror image' style of CSM as they stand, or would they rather see a differently-styled army?

i agree that the Chaos marines do seem too similar to the marines, but not the rules.

the lists have been made to allow the army to be totally different to marines(demons,weapon choices for squads, no land speeders), however you must remember that some chaos marine legions have not been affected by chaos to the extent of others(alpha legion) meaning there SHOULD be room to make a marine like chaos army.

Personally i think the mark specific chaos marines dont look chaotic enough. they just look like marines with extra arrows on their armour. we need to see armour like that found in tha fantastic Horous Heresy collection of books. why would a renegade marine have access to the most recient MKs of armour?

That's a good idea. I like the way you've balanced out having tough troops by not having many.

Problem with the mixing of 'mortal' soldiers is you'll either get a horde-style army which the CSM's can hide behind, or an army with the bare minimum of them and lots of tanks.

I like the idea of having a Troops cap on CSM's, and then buying them in elsewhere.

Agree on the Chosen - I've always felt a bit put out by the way they look in the fluff, and the way they look on stats.

Disagree on more weapons choices, unless the weapons were more wierd and wonderful.

The Angel of Death: Disagree on the armour, I'd like them to look plainer, and for GW to ire-invent them with a sprue of Heresy-era armour. As it stands, I don't like all the arrows (although I think we both agree on this), don't like the horns on the helmets (I cut them off) , and particularly the shoulder pad with the horn, I dislike the chainswords (going to use a CSM and Blood Claws box for my Night Lords CC squads), don't mind the backpacks. In fact, the only things I really like are the Heavy Bolter and the bolter designs (minus the horns on some of them). I'd prefer it if the CSM's looked more like SM's, but plainer, without any of the Imperial icons or daft bits the SM's now come with, making them look more practical the Imperial SM's.

Yeah, the chainswords and random horns are really biff(i cut them off too). Less arrows in general would be a vast improvement, and older looking armour.

While I agree that CSM's need to be toned down a bit, this would neuter the army to be like Thousand Sons, but possibly worse off. I don't think this would happen at all to the main CSM codex since it'd piss off....99% of all CSM players. Maybe add it off as an offshoot of Chaos as another army type, maybe the bastard spawn of Slannesh Marines?

Ah, the joys of the intraweb; where we can merrily make stuff up, sure in the knowledge that it ain't never going to happen... and so don't need to worry about pissing off all the CSM players. Besides, who complained when Space Marines went from being T3 to T4?

1) Old marks of armour: certainly nothing newer than Mk 5. There are arguments that they'd have newer equipment ('Whut? But MY spiky marines have stolen it from Imperial shipping lanes!' *throw toys out of pram*), but if you want a completely new visual style to the army, you need to restrict it.

2) Old equipment: autocannons, conversion beamers, needle rifles etc. Keep the availability limited (i.e. one conversion beamer per havoc squad).

3) Have lesser daemons appear as a bonus to the army: i.e. they appear as extra members of squads depending on certain conditions being met, bolstering areas of the hardest fighting, rather than being bought as units in their own right. This fits right in with the idea of Bloodletters coalescing out of thin air in a haze of frenzied action... Plus this stops the whole 'if the daemonbomb is lucky, you're screwed ? if it isn't, I'm screwed'. Daemons would fill a slot on the force org chart (perhaps like the =][= orbital strike), but would appear as you earn them by might of arms.

4) T4, 2W, Sv4+ types are pretty nasty ? and would require a completely different set of tactics than standard Marines. (As an aside, I can see that both anti-marine weapons and anti-infantry weapons would be effective against them... so how to make them more survivable without making them silly? Feel no pain? Infiltrate so as to stop them getting shot?)

Any other suggestions?

The biggest thing that should change, IMO is that Chaos armies should fully switch over to incorporate the ideological differences that the CSM's face, many of which you've already spoken about.

The foremost on my mind (that hasn't really been brought up) is:

Chaos Space Marines do not get new recruits! Or if they do, not very many. Certainly not enough to keep up with the Imperium's level of Space Marine reproduction.

Not only is it absolutely silly that you can field units of 20 CSMs; but it is simply silly that Cultists are not a massive part of the Chaos list.

The Dawn of War (the video game) designers seemed to have realized this instantly: thus Cultists are a mainstay of the army (as they should be).

Chaos has absolutely no problems converting/seducing/forcing regular humans/IG regiments into their ranks. The Space Marine legions, on the other hand, although they can live essentially forever within the EoT, they simply HAVE to be dwindling in numbers somewhat.

So IMO, the CSM army we know today should disappear, as should the LatD. A new generic CHAOS hybrid list should be the basis for all Chaos armies from here on out. The focus should be making the army different from their Imperial counterparts by focusing on the DIFFERENCES between the two.

I'll get to my suggestions in a second, but first I want to address a couple of your points: First of all, I see no reason that their older armor should be more weak than the current marine armor. One thing about Imperial technology is that often the older tech is better. Not to mention the fact that the energies of Chaos frequently improve the weapons/armor of their bearer. In short, I don't see any fluff reason to suddenly make Chaos power armor 4+.

As for 2 wounds, GW simply cannot price creatures correctly with multiple wounds that are T4 or less. They constantly seem to ignore the effect of Instant Death, and overprice everything that has multiple wounds (Ogryns, 1kSons, etc). That really isn't a reason why it shouldn't be that way, just an observation.

Onto my suggestions for a new Chaos army list:

1) Mixed LatD and CSM lists should be the norm. That isn't to say you can't make an army featuring one or the other, but the most common Chaos army should feature both. Write rules to encourage that fact.

2) Cultists (or renegade Guard) should be a mainstay of the list. CSM's are smart enough to bring around a meatshield with them. At the very least they can sacrifice them to summon some demons.

3) Chaos marines should all be able to be Veterans. In fact, you should be able to pump them up to crazy levels (with a corresponding points value) if you want. But unlike loyalist marines, CSM's have all been fighting thousands of years. That means there should be relatively less difference between a Elite troop and a basic troop (compared to other armies that have fresh recruits and long-fighting elites).

I guess what I'm saying is that you shouldn't have one or two units that you pump up with veteran skills or super stats. Instead, there should be some overall choice about the experience level of your warband that gives all of your CSM units certain bonuses. Of course there can still be some super bad-ass units (some guys are always going to be better fighters), but in general I hope my idea is clear.

4) Old equipment. Couldn't agree more. They should have some older stuff that is super cool (conversion beamers, needlers, etc), and some stuff that is cool but different (like the combi-bolter, for example), and some stuff that just kind of sucks because its old.

5) Different vehicles!!! Espeically now that GW can make plastic kits like they're nothing, Chaos should really get a whole slew of new vehicles. It's been 10,000 years since they split from the Imperium, they should have a whole host of Daemon Enginge/Defiler type things rumbling around the battlefield. There should be very few Imperial style vehicles left, and they should all be pretty twisted by Chaos by now.

6) Different unit types! Similar to #5, but with regular units. In 10,000 years there should be some pretty significant warping effects on CSMs. There should be more wierd Obliterator type units.

7) Really different army styles. Picking a mark for your army should really, really change the way your army is constructed. Obviously GW messed up horribly with the 1kSons, but the idea is great. The warping effects of Chaos should really alter the basic statistics of the army. IMO, no Chaos army should play anything like a loyalist one. You shouldn't even have the option. If you want to play a Chaos force that behaves like an Imperial one, then you should use the Imperial rules and just play a "counts as" list.


So there are my "stream of consciousness" thoughts on the subject. I hope it isn't too fragmented to understand. Ultimately I think GW has really botched the chance to make the Chaos army fundamentally different from the basic marine army. Having access to Daemons just doesn't cut it for me. The entire CONCEPT of the army should be completely different to play from the basic units all the way up.

As an example, what would be some difference between this and an LATD list with the only marines being aspiring champions (or just the arch heretic) or Wordbearers maxed on demons?

 

 

I have been playing CSM for a while and I have notice some big differences in play from thier loyalist counterparts.

Many non-marine players will say "CSM and SM are the same because deep striking termies is like summoning daemons" which is a wrong assumption.
Daemon bombs, obliterators, all CSM having Vet status and the inability to get land speeders, assault canons, librarians.. The list goes on.

3) Chaos marines should all be able to be Veterans. In fact, you should be able to pump them up to crazy levels (with a corresponding points value) if you want. But unlike loyalist marines, CSM's have all been fighting thousands of years. That means there should be relatively less difference between a Elite troop and a basic troop (compared to other armies that have fresh recruits and long-fighting elites

All Unmarked marines can have many vet skills.
Marked marines can only have one for obvious balance issues.

4) Old equipment. Couldn't agree more. They should have some older stuff that is super cool (conversion beamers, needlers, etc), and some stuff that is cool but different (like the combi-bolter, for example), and some stuff that just kind of sucks because its old.

Reaper autocannons and Combibolters... can't have any new loyalist tech but can make thier own like the defiler.

6) Different unit types! Similar to #5, but with regular units. In 10,000 years there should be some pretty significant warping effects on CSMs. There should be more wierd Obliterator type units.

All the different daemons... lots of them adds alot of variety.
Possessed marines.

A friend of mine plays smurfs and his style of play is far different than mine. I annihilate my buddy that plays necron while he tends to tie them. Upon closer inspection you may see more differences than you realize.

In the end it seems the CSM are more melee than Loyalist but the loyalist have the bigger / better guns. (i.e. Plasma cannon, assault cannon)

Sorry for the long post.

I would say, the best thing they could to, is putting CSM and LoaD into one codex. just read the Gaunt Novels, or some WD short story. most of the time, Marines or IG are not fighting Chaos Marines, but traitor Guardsmen. there are just not so many Chaos Marines left, assuming that that this Chaos mutator guy (Fabius Galus in germany, don't know his english name) doesn't produce new ones.

I play Death Guard, and they are different to marine armies.
1.they are much smaller (the armies, not the marines)
2.they are fearless
3.they have demons
and 4. marines fry my army every time wth lasguns and such, because I'm to slow, but hey, I guess that's the price for playing a theme army

While I think 40K would be better off with a WFB style "force org" equivalent, one could start with making CSM (as troops) 0-1, and then only allow the elite marines and raptors.

From what I understand (through hearsay on the Chaos yahoo list) cultists were originally dropped from fear of armies using two cheap squads as the core choice and then loading up on the demon prince and other toys. 

I do like adding all the LatD stuff into the list, and also like the Adversaries material from the WH codex.

I agree completely that CSM need a big revision, to put them more in line with the fluff, and make them more than SM clones.

To start, they should probably have the best statline in the game, but with the points to match.

First, to represent the fact that older technology is better, AND that Chaos has seriously warped the CSM, I think that they should have a base attack of 2, and a 5+ or 6+ invulnerable save, and require each squad to take a Veteran Skill.

Second, revised weapon choices. Have a 0-1 weapon list for every squad that is the standard Imperial Weapons, but each of these weapons is master-crafted. Then, introduce a new weapon set of "Chaos Forged" weapons. These weapons should consist of warped variants of Imperial weapons (Mutation Flamer, anyone?), and original, entirely Chaotic weapons.
To balance out the power that the Chaos Forged guns would haves would have, they would each function as Daemon Weapons, and threaten their wielders.

Third, champions would be total monsters. Each Champion would have 2 wounds, and WS 5.

To combine all the different Chaos lists (Codex Chaos, LaTD, Witch/Daemonhunter adversaries) the army would be based around the WFB Chaos concept, of Daemon and Mortal armies, with the commander you pick as your main choice determining the location of different kinds of units.

you know, the sad thing about this topic isn't that GW won't even think about this idea when hell freezes for a second time. If they would do it, Chaos Players all over the world would scream out how that would radically change their armies. I'm looking at you, Iron Warriors. but such a total change didn't happen since 2nd to 3rd Edition.

well i actually bothered to read all that considering that im still building my troop.
Im also atm writting a small suggestion mail to FW to see if they could be willing to do a pre-heresy conversion pack for chaos and maybe even normies SMs.
I agree on the looks part but im not so sure that completelly redoing the army is a good idea either.Im in no way against it considering the fact that im still not done on it.
I really do like the deamon 'spawning' mechanism.Could make things much more interesting.
BTW,any one willing to give a new-ish CSM player a rundown on what these weapons were(needler,conversion beamer etc)?

Sorry for the necro-posting. I'm a little slow on most forums.

why not replace CSM squads with cultists as the basic troop option, while making the CSM squads an elite's choice? The only thing that would have to change would be to make every current Elite's choice a 0-3 option? add three more slots onto the Elites portion of the force organization chart, and you suddenly have 6 elite slots that cannot be dominated by the original elite units. it would give you the option of taking a fairly inexpensive elites option that could be compensated with additional upgrades for the squad. That now makes cultist units the mainstay of _any_ chaos force, with CSM squads an ever-present (albeit not as prominent) portion of the army.

CK

As a Chaos player I like them, however I think a problem that Gw would have is the amount of whiners that would complain about these changes. I think what might be a possible fix is an "either/or" solution. The either is something similar to the current possiblities of the list OR the proposals that have been made.

By the similar I mean the option for large numbers of CSM troopers. Call this option a "Crusade" option, one of those times when large numbers of CSM stream from the EoT. In this case cultists either cant be used or are expensive/limited.

The other would be as you guys have proposed. I really like your ideas. Makes for a better sounding Blood Pact army.

yeah, a friend of mine who read the Gaunt's Ghosts novels was really looking forward to them when the WD announced they would make a list for them in the next Dwarf.
them the next WD came. and what did he get? an alternate elite choice for LatD.

altough all of this ideas sound great, I still have fun using my Death Guard Army. that is probably on the smallest armys you can get. besides death wing and Demon hunters, that is.

For some reason I always saw the existing CMs getting reincarnated after their destruction...some serf gets sacrificed in the EOT and they respawn a la Hellraiser I.

I like the idea of cultist-heavy CSM lists, with CSMs as Elites (possibly move Obliterators to Heavy Support...)

How about this for an idea for Daemon summoning:

instead of Daemons appearing near icons, scattering etc, have the Daemons emerge out of living cultists. Ie you lose a cultist for every Daemon that appears, but they never scatter. This would tone down the Daemon-bomb a bit, as the cultists could be shot dead before getting close enough. If the Daemons appear early, you can keep them as part of the cultist unit (a la BT intiate+neophyte units) so they have some meat shields for the walk across the board.

Maybe make infiltrating cultists a Fast Attack choice or something, to restrict them somewhat.

Just an idea. I like the thought of the Daemons emerging out of the bodies of cultists. The price of Chaos, doncha know.

Posted By Strangelooper on 04/22/2006 5:06 PM
I like the idea of cultist-heavy CSM lists, with CSMs as Elites (possibly move Obliterators to Heavy Support...)

How about this for an idea for Daemon summoning:

instead of Daemons appearing near icons, scattering etc, have the Daemons emerge out of living cultists. Ie you lose a cultist for every Daemon that appears, but they never scatter. This would tone down the Daemon-bomb a bit, as the cultists could be shot dead before getting close enough. If the Daemons appear early, you can keep them as part of the cultist unit (a la BT intiate+neophyte units) so they have some meat shields for the walk across the board.

Maybe make infiltrating cultists a Fast Attack choice or something, to restrict them somewhat.

Just an idea. I like the thought of the Daemons emerging out of the bodies of cultists. The price of Chaos, doncha know.

Interesting idea. I would add Daemonic Instability checks on all the premature daemons.  Otherwise its not so bad.  Sure food slogging sucks but with 3/5 saves its not that bad.

About the CSM as elites, isnt that LatD anyway?  I havent bought an eye of terror codex yet to really see it.

Corpsman_of_Krieg: The problem is then that you either force out other options, thus dropping all of the other cool Chaos units, or you keep them in, when people will use funky units, thus ensuring that a basic CSM squad is never seen again.

I do like the current CSM book, the idea of a warband of hard-bitten warriors travelling together really does it for me. However, it would be nice to see the option of traitors being used, without the mutant bent which is placed upon LatD.
The best representation of the people of the Eye of Terror I've seen is in the novel 'Eye of Terror', by, I believe, Barrington J. Bailey.

On the Chosen front, how about modelling them on the Wolf Guard?