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pinecone77 wrote:

 Amishprn86 wrote:

pinecone77 wrote:

Benlisted wrote:
Everyone in this Warrior discussion seems to have forgotten Shrikes being a thing! Particularly if running Kraken I think they are a great option. Sure they can't get the prime buff, but with normal warriors you probably only have one turn where you can make use of both weapons - the one when you charge. Kraken Shrikes can use all their weapons every turn. And flying stuff being able to bounce in and out of combat is just super good in general!

Sometime you should try Shrikes with Leviathan, for their wings and claws strategem.

K? Its re-roll 1's to wound, or. I can move faster, and hit harder, then fallback and still shoot and charge giving me double the damage

You can do both. Using Shrikes as part of a Warrior based force lets you keep your functions but add in the Option for a Strat. Also Shrikes with 6++ > Shrikes without. If there is one figure I wish existed it would be a Winged Prime/Shrike Commander.

You understand that BOTH Fly and Non fly units have to be Leviathan right?

You do realize Red terror has way better chance to kill smash captains than a broodlord does right?


Expecially if you peg off a wound or two with warriors first.



The malanthropes are actually quite good for the list. You need 2 because one doesn't give a big enough bubble to cover everything, and having 2 gives you a better chance of getting the preferred enemy buff before the game is over.

 Eihnlazer wrote:
You do realize Red terror has way better chance to kill smash captains than a broodlord does right .

WTF? No its not, you need to hit with 4 or more (Its a 3.8% chance, so i would hope you get all 4, tho it might not happen) then need to roll a 5 or 6 on 1 dice. How is that better? At least the Broodlor dis getting 5 wounds in before saves being D3/3D damage and a Smite to chance to hurt him 1st.

Red Terror has less than a 1/3 chance of killing a captain, about the same as the Broodlord. RT is less than half the price of a BL though.

RTs swallow whole uses the wounds characteristic, not the wounds remaining, so it doesn’t get more likely to proc as the character is wounded.

In the BLs favour though, it can use Smite or Psychic Scream to chip wounds off of its targets, it can damage armour (doing about 5 wounds to a Knight compared to RTs 0.5), the BL also has Synapse, has an invuln, fills an HQ slot and the unit it buffs are so much better than RTs

C4790M wrote:
Red Terror has less than a 1/3 chance of killing a captain, about the same as the Broodlord. RT is less than half the price of a BL though.

RTs swallow whole uses the wounds characteristic, not the wounds remaining, so it doesn’t get more likely to proc as the character is wounded.

In the BLs favour though, it can use Smite or Psychic Scream to chip wounds off of its targets, it can damage armour (doing about 5 wounds to a Knight compared to RTs 0.5), the BL also has Synapse, has an invuln, fills an HQ slot and the unit it buffs are so much better than RTs

But a BL will almost always hurt the Captain, with 5 wounds, they only have a 4++ (other than 1 that "can" have a 3++ via relic) Normaly there will be 2, a 3++ relic and then a normal 4++, the BL will get at least 2 damage rolls on a 4++ with a 50/50 chance of a 3rd, so 2D3 damage is better than than a 33.334% to kill it outright. (this is without CP re-rolls, Smite, or stratagems). Remember, if the BL gets him down to 1 wound, you can spend 1 CP to deal 1 MW.

Well my mistake on the swallow whole thing. Thought it was remaining wounds. But a 28% chance to nomnom a smash captain with a 50 point model isn't horrible tbh.

Maybe, but why go that route instead of taking a BL who is more expensive but can also do about 20 times more things against just about any list, while also having a roughly equal chance of killing a captain?

I don't get comparing an arguably still overpriced HQ choice with a very reasonable priced elite choice. If you want a brigade Red Terror at 50 pts is certainly a viable option if you need a cheap slotfiller for elite, depending on what opposition you are facing.
Against the right opponent and if you choose your targets right he is certainly worth his points. Eating Eldar warlocks and Imperial guard officers comes to mind.

Thepatriarch wrote:
I don't get comparing an arguably still overpriced HQ choice with a very reasonable priced elite choice. If you want a brigade Red Terror at 50 pts is certainly a viable option if you need a cheap slotfiller for elite, depending on what opposition you are facing.
Against the right opponent and if you choose your targets right he is certainly worth his points. Eating Eldar warlocks and Imperial guard officers comes to mind.

That's not even remotely similar to how he was using it and what he was arguing in favor of it for though.

Also, who needs any other small character when Deathleaper is so cheap now?

That's not even remotely similar to how he was using it and what he was arguing in favor of it for though.

I didn't see the point in him saying arguing that a model that is over 2 times the cost of Red Terror is better at killing a smash captain, of course it is, that doesn't mean it's a better use of your points or even the best option to kill a smash captain.
Then I pointed out what I think the Red Terror is good for since I agree it's not a great option if you want to go for a Smash Captain.

As for Deathleaper I'd pick him over Red Terror sure, but for a Brigade you have 3 slots, so if you have the points you might choose to go Hive Guard unit - Death Leaper - Red Terror for instance (again depending on what your facing).

Actually my math says that the RT has an higher than 50% chance to swallow it by using a CP, similar to the actual chances of a BL doing the same. Let's not forget the 6+++ on those captains, which RT just ignores.

You need to hit with 4 out of 5 attacks hitting on a rerollable 2+, which is almost 100%, and then roll a 5+ rerollable with a CP.

Also, i would have to check the wording on "Only in death does duty end", but i think that you can't use it if swallowed.

Why wouldn't you be able to use it?

Only in death does duty ends still works, b.c it says when a model is slain, the RT says it is slain.

 Amishprn86 wrote:
Only in death does duty ends still works, b.c it says when a model is slain, the RT says it is slain.

Yeah, i hadn't the codex in front of me. Many abilities of that kind proc on "When the model loses the last wound", but indeed that stratagem triggers on "slain" so it works.

So I am thinking of bringing a Battalion of Jorg with my next list using 2x Prime, 3x 3 Rippers, 2x 3 Pyrovores, 2x 3 Raviners.
A battalion of Kraken with swarmi, broodlord, 2x 20 genestealers and 10 termigaunts
and a back field battalion of Kronos with 2 nerothropes, 3x 10 termigaunts, 6 hive guard with impaler. All for 1998pts.

Plan is to charge the enemy line asap with kraken stealers strat for dbl adv for one and swarmi extra move for other with broodlord dbl moving with strat to keep 2+ hit on genes.
Kronos take up position center field preferably behind blos and the gaunts spread out to deny DS
Jorg finally is my DS surprise with 6d6 10" flamer hits then kamikaze assaults wile rippers cap backfield objectives.

What do you think....I know people will say it's not fluffy to use 3 hive fleets but imperials are using knights, guard and insert SM faction all the time so why cant we mix it up?

AS for fluff justification I use my own hive fleet "Psythe" and it adapts different groups within it's force to do different tasks.

As long as they’re all painted accordingly so it’s not difficult to differentiate between hive fleets, there shouldn’t be a problem.

If they’re not painted or all the same scheme, then it gets real obnoxious real fast.

 Badablack wrote:
As long as they’re all painted accordingly so it’s not difficult to differentiate between hive fleets, there shouldn’t be a problem.

If they’re not painted or all the same scheme, then it gets real obnoxious real fast.

Dont even need to paint, just have a way to tell, a Red mark on the side of the base and a Grey mark on the other is good enough.

I just paint the bases edge different colors to signify different hive fleets. Ie purple is Levithian, Red is Kronos, Green is Kraken ECT..

So I have a game today after many months of not being able to. It's a 2000 vs orks.

I want to have a AV batallion of Kronos with 2x3 hive guard, Exocrine and rupture cannon t-fex. With neurothrope/deathleaper for cheap HQ and rippers for troops that would take me to 900ish points.

Then I would like to try mass warriors for the remaining of the list. In that respect I have two options:

1. Leviathan warriors for that extra survivability, with Swarmlord/tyranid prime to walk down the field, maybe with a couple of fexes too if the points allow it. This would also let me have a couple of venomthropes for some extra protection.

2. Jorm warriors with trygons to deliver them and two T-primes to tag along in the tunnels via the stratagem. Pop out, shoot short range deathspitters on a 3+, then NOT charge to get the 3+ save (and 2+ on the trygons) and go for supercharges the following turn.

Which way do you think would be best?

If your taking the hive guard in a battalion just take one unit of 6. No reason to split them up when you have a strat that lets one unit shoot twice.

Since your up againgst orks, I'd take the jorm warriors/trygons over the leviathan ones. They have so much anti-infantry weaponry that the trygons will serve you better than the FNP. Make sure to take a couple of units of rippers to screen for your kronos battalion though. Don't want those orks to swamp your backfield before you can bring in your other models.


Could do it like this:



You'll have to walk the rippers and the small warrior squad because of deep strike PL limitations but can deep strike everything else jormy.

 Eihnlazer wrote:
If your taking the hive guard in a battalion just take one unit of 6. No reason to split them up when you have a strat that lets one unit shoot twice.

Since your up againgst orks, I'd take the jorm warriors/trygons over the leviathan ones. They have so much anti-infantry weaponry that the trygons will serve you better than the FNP. Make sure to take a couple of units of rippers to screen for your kronos battalion though. Don't want those orks to swamp your backfield before you can bring in your other models.


Could do it like this:

Spoiler:

Kronos bat:

Nuerothrope x2

3xrippers x3
12 hormagaunts

6xhive guard

Jormy bat:

2x Tprime/w ds, bs, adrenal, toxin

warrior squad/w 6x ds/bs/adrenal 3x barbed/bs/adrenal
warrior squad/w 4x /////// 2x
warrior squad/w 2x ///// 1x

2x trygon/w adrenal and prehensile tail.

You'll have to walk the rippers and the small warrior squad because of deep strike PL limitations but can deep strike everything else jormy.

No love for Exocrine/ T-fex? They gotten a fair deal cheaper. Also, how many warriors can I fit around the Trygon before I have to sacrifice them?

You have 2 trygons so you have plenty of space. It's only 15 warriors and 2 primes going with them so should be easy enough to fit everything.

Trygons go 9" away and warriors behind them (since you aren't charging with the warriors). This also lets you make it hard for smaller things to charge your warriors.


I actually had the exocrine and the T-fex on the list in Battlescribe, I just forgot to copy them over.

Actually now that I look at it, Exocrine is much better than 6 hive guard.

>Both are 36"
>Both shoot 12 shots at 3+ (assuming no movement)
>Both have almost the same ap and damage (ap 3 vs ap2 + no cover, damage 2 vs damage d3)
>Str 8 vs str 7 is better for the HG

but!

>Exocrine has a lot better degradation (need to lose 6 wounds to lose a BS, while HG lose shots on 2 wounds lost
> Exocrine has better defenses (Toughness 7 and 3+ save)
> Exocrine is a whooping 112 pts cheaper!

I think I will be replacing for 2 Exocrines and use my spare points to also get a nice quad devourer carnifex with enhanced senses and spore cysts.

The Exocrine also loses 3/4 of its shooting if it moves, while the HG only lose 1/4.

And of course the HG can fire out of los.

I would say depends on the terrain.

Tyran wrote:
The Exocrine also loses 3/4 of its shooting if it moves, while the HG only lose 1/4.

And of course the HG can fire out of los.

I would say depends on the terrain.

With 112 pts I can buy my own terrain (ie 4 venomthropes).

topaxygouroun i wrote:

Tyran wrote:
The Exocrine also loses 3/4 of its shooting if it moves, while the HG only lose 1/4.

And of course the HG can fire out of los.

I would say depends on the terrain.

With 112 pts I can buy my own terrain (ie 4 venomthropes).

Which is nowhere as good as BLOS and can be shoot of the table.

Tyran wrote:

topaxygouroun i wrote:

Tyran wrote:
The Exocrine also loses 3/4 of its shooting if it moves, while the HG only lose 1/4.

And of course the HG can fire out of los.

I would say depends on the terrain.

With 112 pts I can buy my own terrain (ie 4 venomthropes).

Which is nowhere as good as BLOS and can be shoot of the table.

The point in this discussion is that 112 pts cheaper is A LOT. For the points of 6 hive guard we can have an Exocrine and a quad devourer carnifex with enhanced senses/spore cysts. Is the no los shooting worth it a whole dakkafex?

the no LoS shooting and the ability to be able to move and shoot without affecting your damage output at all, is absolutely worth 112 pts considering the rest of the benefits ..

S8 is also direct equivalent to +1 to wound Vs every single vehicle in the game. Also the big one is being able to double shoot every round with SMA. And from the safety of cover.

It's not close imo. It's comparing one of our best units with one of our weaker ones.

 SHUPPET wrote:
the no LoS shooting and the ability to be able to move and shoot without affecting your damage output at all, is absolutely worth 112 pts considering the rest of the benefits ..

S8 is also direct equivalent to +1 to wound Vs every single vehicle in the game. Also the big one is being able to double shoot every round with SMA. And from the safety of cover.

It's not close imo. It's comparing one of our best units with one of our weaker ones.

Impaler cannon is heavy. If hive guards move they get -1 to hit. Certainly not as severe as the Exo moving of course. As for cover, good luck trying to fit 6 hive guards in cover. Even in cover, their armor only become as good as the Exocrine's not better.

The comparison is really a lot closer than people think, and 112 pts is a lot, really a lot of points.