ISIS

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**jhe90**

to keep on topic.

the threat posed by Islamic state, and the Islamic groups who excavated recent attacks have forced a reaction in Europe.

Police and armed soldiers are more regular.
and it has changed peoples mind sets.

so to keep on topic and not get locked. they have for good or ill made the west change its thinking in regard to them.

**CptJake**

Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:
CptJake wrote:
Why not make a Right Wing Terror thread for all your theoretical and philosophical musings and keep this one from going off topic and getting locked?

And use the France Election thread for musings about that event for the same reasons?

Hey, you're the one who started the discussion here about the French attack.

Yes, about the attack, not the elections and not about right wing terror.

The attack, which fits the template we've seen for DaIsh/DaIsh inspired attacks in Europe. That is on topic.

Elections and Right Wing terror? Not so much.

**jhe90**

CptJake wrote:
Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:
CptJake wrote:
Why not make a Right Wing Terror thread for all your theoretical and philosophical musings and keep this one from going off topic and getting locked?

And use the France Election thread for musings about that event for the same reasons?

Hey, you're the one who started the discussion here about the French attack.

Yes, about the attack, not the elections and not about right wing terror.

The attack, which fits the template we've seen for DaIsh/DaIsh inspired attacks in Europe. That is on topic.

Elections and Right Wing terror? Not so much.

it very much first the past pattern of attacks, and tactics. also matchs with the attempt to take a soldiers gun in a airport earlier this year.

**jhe90**

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4435370/Knife-wielding-man-arrested-Paris.html

are they they ones behind the seeming Crazies?
these attacks are coming pretty randomly, sadly but there seems to be no pattern.

**Rosebuddy**

Whirlwind wrote:

I think the main difference is that ISIS (and before that Al Qaeda, though they are still around) have drawn a lot of disparate groups under one banner, whereas the far-right groups are disjointed and generally interested in their own country (and hence they aren't co-ordinated).

European fascist movements do cooperate on an international scale. We've had instances of Swedish nazis travelling to Eastern Europe to learn knife fighting, for example. There's this whole "European brotherhood" thing.

Islamic extremism, which is really just a kind of right-wing extremism, is focused on mainly because of racism. White terror isn't a threat to the ruling class while brown terror is.

**Spetulhu**

Rosebuddy wrote:
European fascist movements do cooperate on an international scale. We've had instances of Swedish nazis travelling to Eastern Europe to learn knife fighting, for example.

And these organisations do distribute their national propaganda to other national groups so the others can use it. If there's an incident in one country (or something you can write up as an incident) the neonazis will make sure their connected organisations elsewhere get to read the right account of it, according to their opinion.

The difference is that ISIS is willing to take credit and responsibility for deeds done by lone wolfs that never had any contact with them. Neonazis and other European right-wing groups will deny having anything to do with whatever some guy did while being perfectly fine with using it to further their own aims. Breivik in Norway claimed his massmurder was justified because the social democrats he attacked were too lenient in allowing immigration to Norway, especially muslim immigrants. Groups of a similar bent can't go public with their approval of such a crazy deed but they can latch on to his thoughts on why immigration is bad.

**BaronIveagh**

jhe90 wrote:

the threat posed by Islamic state, and the Islamic groups who excavated recent attacks have forced a reaction in Europe.

Because Europeans have no problem understanding how dangerous an enemy with a shovel and some explosives can be.

As demonstrated here at Hawthorn Ridge, the Somme, the Henry Pleasants' Special has proven very popular in standard and asymmetrical warfare throughout the 20th and 21st centuries.

I'll point out that as impressive as MOAB is, the US found that aerial bombings against tunnels at Củ Chi and Vịnh Mốc were less successful than hoped. Vịnh Mốc had slightly over 9,000 tonnes of bombs dropped on and around it, and is still around today, though as a museum. Hitting mountain strongholds in Afghanistan also proved difficult as mountain and glacial scree seems to screw with ground penetrating bombs penetration of said ground.

**AlmightyWalrus**

Isn't the MOAB a thermobaric weapon though? You don't have to break the tunnels if everyone in them are dead.

**jhe90**

AlmightyWalrus wrote:
Isn't the MOAB a thermobaric weapon though? You don't have to break the tunnels if everyone in them are dead.

Fuel air weapons/thermobaeic yes.
There not regular explosive weaponry that has heavy metal cases like regular ordnance.

**BaronIveagh**

AlmightyWalrus wrote:
Isn't the MOAB a thermobaric weapon though? You don't have to break the tunnels if everyone in them are dead.

Thermobaric weapons are not magic, and while they can produce a vacuum effect,this is limited with surface impacts. The main destruction is the massive shock wave that moves through the tunnels causing collapses when the weapon does not penetrait. For a FAE to have maximum effect you really do have to break the tunnels, so that the fuel can disperse before ignition, and create all your sexy vacuum, poison, and blast wave effects.

In worst case situations, a failed detonation can kill civilians due to the dispersal of a cloud of toxic chemicals such as Ethylene oxide and propylene oxide. UXBs in this case are to be treated as areas where poison gas has been used.

**Laughing Man**

MOABs aren't thermobaric weapons. They just concentrate a ridiculous amount of conventional explosives in one spot.

**amanita**

On the other hand, if the US had wanted to drop a 'bunker buster' type munition they could have used a MOP, or Massive Ordnance Penetrator.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Massive_Ordnance_Penetrator

**BigWaaagh**

That'll do pig, that'll do.

http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/wild-boars-overrun-islamic-state-position-kill-3-militants/ar-BBAmjUs?li=BBnb7Kz&ocid=ASUDHP

**BaronIveagh**

BigWaaagh wrote:
That'll do pig, that'll do.

http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/wild-boars-overrun-islamic-state-position-kill-3-militants/ar-BBAmjUs?li=BBnb7Kz&ocid=ASUDHP

You know, I wonder if being eaten BY bacon is unclean?

**jhe90**

BaronIveagh wrote:
BigWaaagh wrote:
That'll do pig, that'll do.

http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/wild-boars-overrun-islamic-state-position-kill-3-militants/ar-BBAmjUs?li=BBnb7Kz&ocid=ASUDHP

You know, I wonder if being eaten BY bacon is unclean?

Lol. You know I don,t think there is a section on death by pig... This is definitely different!
I think this a new one. They may need to issue a new fatwa on the situation.

**LordofHats**

For ISIS itself, this would probably count as dying a martyr.

As for everyone else... Well I guess we can all just appreciate the irony?

**Shadow Captain Edithae**

That moment when the shish kebab fights back...

**Spetulhu**

BaronIveagh wrote:
You know, I wonder if being eaten BY bacon is unclean?

If you died a martyr it doesn't really matter what happens to your body. So the ISIS guys wouldn't care, but if you did this to others? Congratulations, many would object loudly and join them in fighting an enemy doing such a barbaric thing.

Besides, desecrating dead bodies is a warcrime.

**BaronIveagh**

Spetulhu wrote:

Besides, desecrating dead bodies is a warcrime.

If the chaplain blesses the spikes their heads are impaled on, is that still desecration?

**Shadow Captain Edithae**

BaronIveagh wrote:
Spetulhu wrote:

Besides, desecrating dead bodies is a warcrime.

If the chaplain blesses the spikes their heads are impaled on, is that still desecration?

Depends on the god...

+PURGE THE HERETIC+

**Grey Templar**

BaronIveagh wrote:
Spetulhu wrote:

Besides, desecrating dead bodies is a warcrime.

If the chaplain blesses the spikes their heads are impaled on, is that still desecration?

Just eat the pigs afterwards. Then its recycling, not desecration.

**djones520**

ISIS related.

http://www.independent.co.uk/arts-entertainment/michael-mantenuto-dead-disney-miracle-star-dies-age-35-suicide-death-a7706601.html

Already the scum of society begins to seep out. The Facebook post I saw this story on, had a woman saying "he probably killed himself from all the evil things he did, murdering so many innocent people."

The world we live in, when ISIS is the "innocent people". *sighs*

**Tyran**

Well yeah, never read comments in facebook, youtube and other social media if you want to keep yourself somewhat sane.

**jhe90**

Read too.many you lose brain cells..

Lose ernough you join them.

Some things best avoided for sanity.

**Shadow Captain Edithae**

Grey Templar wrote:
BaronIveagh wrote:
Spetulhu wrote:

Besides, desecrating dead bodies is a warcrime.

If the chaplain blesses the spikes their heads are impaled on, is that still desecration?

Just eat the pigs afterwards. Then its recycling, not desecration.

Have you guys been watching The Walking Dead?

**CptJake**

BaronIveagh wrote:
jhe90 wrote:

the threat posed by Islamic state, and the Islamic groups who excavated recent attacks have forced a reaction in Europe.

Because Europeans have no problem understanding how dangerous an enemy with a shovel and some explosives can be.

As demonstrated here at Hawthorn Ridge, the Somme, the Henry Pleasants' Special has proven very popular in standard and asymmetrical warfare throughout the 20th and 21st centuries.

I'll point out that as impressive as MOAB is, the US found that aerial bombings against tunnels at Củ Chi and Vịnh Mốc were less successful than hoped. Vịnh Mốc had slightly over 9,000 tonnes of bombs dropped on and around it, and is still around today, though as a museum. Hitting mountain strongholds in Afghanistan also proved difficult as mountain and glacial scree seems to screw with ground penetrating bombs penetration of said ground.

I'll point out the MOAB was very specifically chosen when this specific target set was given to the lead targeteers for one of the services. No amount of regular bombs can generate the specific types of pressure waves the MOAB can. The only other munitions which do so are nuclear. Ground penetration was NOT the desire. The bomb did exactly what it was supposed to do, which is exactly why it was chosen.

I know for a fact the choice to use this munition was very deliberate and involved a lot of detailed analysis of a very talented team. The MOAB was chosen for a reason, and 'cool factor' had nothing to do with it.

**BaronIveagh**

CptJake wrote:
and 'cool factor' had nothing to do with it.

So, you're claiming that at no point, not one of them said, 'What will the effect be on enemy morale'? I have little doubt it was picked for many reasons, shock value, in more ways than one, being among them.

Or is that coming from the recent spate of critical reports on the use and apparent failure of the MOAB to do very much, as the tunnels are apparently still largely intact,despite 94 (largest estimate) ISIS casualties? Noting, the post date on my post, and the fact that the reports started coming out last Friday?

http://www.foxnews.com/world/2017/05/07/analysts-downplay-effectiveness-moab-strike-in-afghanistan.html

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/may/05/us-military-afghanistan-bomb-moab?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other

**CptJake**

I'm claiming, based on talking with the guy who did much of the analysis and recommended the MOAB, that they looked at the target (tunnel system in that specific terrain) and the desired effect. Enemy morale was not a factor in the weaponeering for that strike.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
And it was not designed to destroy all the tunnels, just the folks and gear in them, and it did so.

**Ahtman**

Confirmed: Head of ISIS In Afghanistan Killed In Raid By 50 U.S. Special Forces, 40 Afghan Commandos

U.S. and Afghan officials revealed Sunday that the head of ISIS in Afghanistan, Abdul Hasib has been confirmed dead as a result of a join U.S. and Afghan operation carried out on April 27th. The raid was carried out by 50 U.S. Army Rangers and 40 Afghan commandos.

A Pentagon spokesperson previously said that Hasib was most likely killed but there has been no confirmation until now.

Hasib’s predecessor, Hafiz Saeed Khan was killed in a U.S. drone strike.

The 90 troops were dropped by helicopter into Nangarhar Province, close to where the U.S. MOAB, or “mother of all bombs,” was dropped on April 13. Upon landing the Rangers were met with heavy fire and called in air support from drones, Apache helicopters, F-16s and an AC-130. Gen. John Nicholson said in a statement that “This successful joint operation is another important step in our relentless campaign to defeat ISIS-K in 2017,” and continued, ‘This is the second ISIS-K emir we have killed in nine months, along with dozens of their leaders and hundreds of their fighters.”

The statement said that 35 ISIS fighters and high ranking commanders were also killed in the raid.

On Twitter Sunday, President Ashraf Ghani’s Office confirmed Hasib’s death in the attack.

“He was responsible for ordering the attack on the 400-bed hospital in Kabul, kidnapped girls and beheaded elders in front of their families,” the President’s office said.

The hospital raid resulted in 30 deaths.

**Shadow Captain Edithae**

Baron, "shock value on morale" does not equal a "cool factor".