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you pack Onslaught specifically for this reason. Move Hive Guard turn 1. Cast onslaught and shoot twice, zero penalty. Exocrine on the other hand has its damage cut in half, and it's damage is already less than half of a double shooting Hive Guard.



you don't put them in cover, or area terrain, or whatever you are theorycrafting. You put them out of line of sight. There is no selective math hammer that can beat that, the Hive Guard is literally infinitely more durable Vs anything other than extreme mobility flyers. If you can't hide then out of Line of Sight on your tables, you are playing the game with too little terrain. Every high level ITC event will have at least that much terrain.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/01/16 16:38:50


P.S.A. I won't read your posts if you break it into a million separate quotes and make an eyesore of it. 
   
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Netherlands

 SHUPPET wrote:
you pack Onslaught specifically for this reason. Move Hive Guard turn 1. Cast onslaught and shoot twice, zero penalty. Exocrine on the other hand has its damage cut in half, and it's damage is already less than half of a double shooting Hive Guard.



you don't put them in cover, or area terrain, or whatever you are theorycrafting. You put them out of line of sight. There is no math hammer that can beat that, the Exocrine is infinitely more durable Vs anything other than extreme mobility flyers. If you can't hide then out of Line of Sight on your tables, you are playing the game with too little terrain. Every high level ITC event will have at least that much terrain.


Well they are not the only units on the army are they? If the enemy can't see your hive guard they will shoot something else. It's not like their shooting will suddenly fizzle.

hive guard are good. Not sure they are good enough for an extra 112 pts.

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that's a really silly response. You want them to be shooting something else. Neither are a front line tanking unit, and AT is the most precious thing in a Tyranid list. And all that aside, it was you who decided to compare durability and chalk it as a plus to Exocrine, not us. Not being able to get shot is the pinnacle of durability, it's like if Exocrine had -6 to be shot. By your own measure you were wrong, you thought we were saying put them in cover but it was actually out of LoS which is very different.

P.S.A. I won't read your posts if you break it into a million separate quotes and make an eyesore of it. 
   
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Netherlands

 SHUPPET wrote:
that's a really silly response. You want them to be shooting something else. Neither are a front line tanking unit, and AT is the most precious thing in a Tyranid list. And all that aside, it was you who decided to compare durability and chalk it as a plus to Exocrine, not us. Not being able to get shot is the pinnacle of durability, it's like if Exocrine had -6 to be shot. By your own measure you were wrong, you thought we were saying put them in cover but it was actually out of LoS which is very different.


Well if you have sufficient cover to completely hide your hive guard, then you also have sufficient cover to give your exocrine a 2+ save. Durability is a plus to the exocrine. Your invisible hive guard are only invisible if the enemy does not bring any deep strikers, any fliers, any smart missile systems or their own hive guard etc. That's quite an assumption you are making there. And, since AT is the most precious thing in a Tyranid list, how many more AT can you bring with your spare 112 pts, especially with the venom cannon being brought down to 12 pts?

Not being able to adapt to changes in the game is really not a very Tyranid-y thing to do.

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topaxygouroun i wrote:
 SHUPPET wrote:
that's a really silly response. You want them to be shooting something else. Neither are a front line tanking unit, and AT is the most precious thing in a Tyranid list. And all that aside, it was you who decided to compare durability and chalk it as a plus to Exocrine, not us. Not being able to get shot is the pinnacle of durability, it's like if Exocrine had -6 to be shot. By your own measure you were wrong, you thought we were saying put them in cover but it was actually out of LoS which is very different.


Well if you have sufficient cover to completely hide your hive guard, then you also have sufficient cover to give your exocrine a 2+ save. Durability is a plus to the exocrine. Your invisible hive guard are only invisible if the enemy does not bring any deep strikers, any fliers, any smart missile systems or their own hive guard etc. That's quite an assumption you are making there.
.


No, you do not. Area terrain cover is very different to LOS blocking, you need to get this clear. On top of that, positioning is already super restrictive with the Exocrine, even if there is cover to be had from terrain, there's a very good chance you will be blocking your own shooting by not putting that Excocrine up high somewhere, not a problem for the HG. On top of all that, even in your magical Christmas land set up where you get to deploy into terrain and then optimally shoot at the right target withoit having to move, the Exocrine STILL loses out on durability because that's still literally infinitely less durable than not being shot at at all. You can screen for deepstrikers. The durability difference is marginal for the few units that do get to shoot at it, and completely one sided Vs the major of the game that doesn't. Tyranid are not an easy army to push into and that's generally the best match ups to begin with. Durability is not a plus for Exocrine Vs Hive Guard, that is nonsense in my opinion.

And, since AT is the most precious thing in a Tyranid list, how many more AT can you bring with your spare 112 pts, especially with the venom cannon being brought down to 12 pts?

If your opponent brought Hive Guard and you brought an Exocrine, this is NOT your advantage. You are never, ever getting to shoot at that Hive Guard with an Exocrine, you're spending at least two turns running up the field like a Carnifex to get in range of them (which is basically suiciding your AT but whatever) and then shooting at half strength at best even with onslaught, and assuming no. wound profile drop or tarpit in CC. But let's be realistic the Exocrine is dead by then anyway, not least of which being the fact that Hive Guard has been shooting at YOU all game, since he doesn't need LoS. If you and your opponent both have Hive Guard, that's not your disadvantage. This logic is not very well thought out.

Taking Hive Guard IS taking more AT. They can double shoot. They can apply their damage much more easily and consistently. They have +1 to wound. They are doing a lot more AT than that Exocrine.


Look, you want to play the Exocrine, play the Exocrine. I'm usually all for different interpretations of units, and I've been careful to phrase my overall statements on a unit with "in my opinion", cause that's all it is. But you seem to be arguing now cause you don't want to back down on even the slightest point, and you aren't even being fair to your own logic put forth so far.

Not being able to adapt to changes in the game is really not a very Tyranid-y thing to do

not being able to back down from a disproven statement isn't a very tactical thing to do, but yet here we are in the tactics thread. This point doesn't even make sense for you anyway, one of the major strengths of the HG is that they are far more adaptable and versatile than the highly restrictive Exocrine.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/01/16 17:41:44


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topaxygouroun i wrote:

>Exocrine has a lot better degradation (need to lose 6 wounds to lose a BS, while HG lose shots on 2 wounds lost Hive guard are 3 wound models, they lose shots on every 3 wounds lost.
> Exocrine has better defenses (Toughness 7 and 3+ save) Exocrines are T8, not T7.
> Exocrine is a whooping 112 pts cheaper! It's 118 points cheaper

Just fixing numbers. Incorrect numbers annoy me
   
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topaxygouroun i wrote:
 SHUPPET wrote:
the no LoS shooting and the ability to be able to move and shoot without affecting your damage output at all, is absolutely worth 112 pts considering the rest of the benefits ..

S8 is also direct equivalent to +1 to wound Vs every single vehicle in the game. Also the big one is being able to double shoot every round with SMA. And from the safety of cover.

It's not close imo. It's comparing one of our best units with one of our weaker ones.


Impaler cannon is heavy. If hive guards move they get -1 to hit. Certainly not as severe as the Exo moving of course. As for cover, good luck trying to fit 6 hive guards in cover. Even in cover, their armor only become as good as the Exocrine's not better.

The comparison is really a lot closer than people think, and 112 pts is a lot, really a lot of points.



HIve Guard are 36", if you cant find cover to shoot a good 60% of the table and still be complacently out of LoS, then your terrain is the problem.

Hive Guard are one of the best shooting units in the book, there are many good reasons why 99% the players take them. They are for sure worth the extra points.

And no, the compassion isnt as close as you think. If your Exocrine is moving only turn 1 and you can shoot everything you need to without moving (Bc thats the ONLY way he is better than Hive Guard), then again you dont have enough or the right kind of terrain.

Remember Exo starts out as BS4+ and if it moves its BS5+ where HG start at BS3+ and are 4+ on the move, but they dont need to move as much as Exocrine.
Also S8 vs S7, S8 is very important in this game, its the key Break point to hurt T7 and T8 reliably (3+ and 4+ vs 4+ and 5+ to wound) it also doubles out T4 for 2+ to wound.


EDIT: Dont forget 6 Hive guard is 12 shoots, that means for that 112pts the Exocrine CAN NOT move to get 12 shots. Always 12 shots at S8 is well worth it,
PPS: Hive Guard also ignore cover saves

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2019/01/16 20:53:27


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Depens on the houserules used actually. Without ITC putting 6 hive guards sufficently out of LOS is something that is not automatic on all tables.
   
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Spoletta wrote:
Depens on the houserules used actually. Without ITC putting 6 hive guards sufficently out of LOS is something that is not automatic on all tables.


No, you dont need ITC to have good terrain.

If you are playing without LoS blocking terrain (at least 2-3) then you have a crappy table.

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If you don’t have the bottom floor blocks LoS rule, then it can be quite difficult sometimes, even on dense boards, especially for a unit of 6 40mm bases. GW terrain is notoriously porous
   
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I'm sorry, but Amish is right. If you are not playing with a minimum of enough LoS blocking to conceal a unit of Hive Guard from LoS, then you are playing a different game. Competitive 40k hinges on having a decent amount of LoS blocking terrain, that's why every single tournament has that and that it's so commonly recommended. This is the standard. One of the tables (there's multiple) at my local has this, and I know what I'm going into when I play on it, and it's a completely different game, even with or without Hive Guard.

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Inside Yvraine

What are you guys using as cores (so troops+HQ basically)?

I play at 1500 points and I'd like to play something that can do stuff at every phase of the game.
   
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 BlaxicanX wrote:
What are you guys using as cores (so troops+HQ basically)?

I play at 1500 points and I'd like to play something that can do stuff at every phase of the game.


I almost always take 2 Battalions, Flyrant, OOE, Swarmlord, for higher points, from their i change it up from Neurothropes to Malanthrope, but lately testing out Broodlord, or even a 2nd Flyrant

My troops are almost always the same, 2x16 or 2x20 Genestealers, 1x30 Hormagants and rest Rippers as bae (I dont like Tgants), sometimes 60 Hgants

If i had to pick a base no matter what?

Flyrant
Flyrant
1x20 Genestealers
1x20 Hgants
Rippers
Hive guard x6

OOE
Neurothrope
Hgants x15
Ripper
Ripper

That should be 1500pts on the dot. Due note i would normally not play 1500 points so it might be better to take out some Hgants for more Genestealers.

No slingshot Swarmlord, average 36" should still be enough for genestealers turn 1 charge.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/01/17 03:07:04


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 BlaxicanX wrote:
What are you guys using as cores (so troops+HQ basically)?

I play at 1500 points and I'd like to play something that can do stuff at every phase of the game.

As a HQ + Troops core, I find it hard to look past two units of 20 genestealers, and a unit of 30 termagants for troops. Then a broodlord and either swarmlord or neurothrope for HQs, depending on the size of the game.
Sure this isn't doing much in the shooting phase, but tyranids are better off looking to their elite and heavy slots for fire support.

With either Kraken or swarmlord, genestealers have the speed to easily assault on turn 1. Most people in my area at least are still struggling with the concept of taking models hostage in combat, leading to the genestealers just waltzing through their gunlines.
Against another assault army, you have a 30 strong screen of termagants to deploy the genestealers behind. Stick them more than 3" behind the gaunts, so that things like orks using Da Jump can't get within 12" of the genestealers. If they can't include the genestealers in their charge, then even with a fight twice stratagem they can't attack them. Leaving you able to counter-charge in your turn.

A lot of people don't like the broodlord even after its recent big price drop, as it doesn't keep up with the genestealers. However mine has been doing great, using metabolic overdrive to double-move it. It doesn't need to charge turn 1. It can still be near the genestealers, and be available for psychic support + a turn 2 charge.
   
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Inside Yvraine

Thanks for the advice guys- it seems that we're mostly on the same page in regards to a lot of the high-priority units like genestealers and hive guard.

After theory-crafting for a few hours, I don't think double battalion is feasible at my points level. 4 HQs is just too much of a tax for Tyranids at 1500 points, what with our cheapest one being 70 points. Guard can do it, Tau can too but I don't think we can.

Neurothrope (Norn Crown, smite, onslaught)
Broodlord (smite, catalyst)
20xGenestealers
20xTermagaunts
15xTermagaunts
3xRippers
6xHive Guard (6xImpaler Cannons)
6xHive Guard (6xImpaler Cannons)
3xCarnifex (4xBL-Devourers, enhanced Senses, sporecysts)

1499

With the HG, fexes and Neurothrope hanging back I've got a decent firebase, while the 'gaunts, stealers and BL move up and run interference. I'm not sure which Hive Fleet to use though. I don't like Kronos here because the range of everything except the HG is too low for them to sit still all game. I feel like it's a toss up between Jormungandr and Kraken, leaning toward the universal utility of Jormungandr.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/01/17 23:13:20


 
   
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Bergen

Just wondering. Chapter aproved 2019... I would need chapter aproved 2018 and 2019 to play with both the manalnthrope (2018) and 2019 for the other units?

I am a dyslectic, so bear with me.

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We wont know that till 2019 version comes out. But most likely, you wont need the previous versions at all unless you want their specific missions.

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Timeshadow wrote:
So I am thinking of bringing a Battalion of Jorg with my next list using 2x Prime, 3x 3 Rippers, 2x 3 Pyrovores, 2x 3 Raviners.
A battalion of Kraken with swarmi, broodlord, 2x 20 genestealers and 10 termigaunts
and a back field battalion of Kronos with 2 nerothropes, 3x 10 termigaunts, 6 hive guard with impaler. All for 1998pts.

If you put double ScyTals on your Primes, you can squeeze it into 2000pts on the dot. Not sure how you arrive at 1998pts.

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 Niiai wrote:
Just wondering. Chapter aproved 2019... I would need chapter aproved 2018 and 2019 to play with both the manalnthrope (2018) and 2019 for the other units?


I was asking about 2017 and 2018 respectivly, not 2018 and 2019.

I am a dyslectic, so bear with me.

Dyslectics in a text based environment? Dakka is aware of you and sympathises with any troubles you have: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/505863.page

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South Florida

You only need the current Chapter Approved. All points are revised in the new Chapter Approved, including a re-printing of the points for the Malanthrope. So you will need CA 2018 and the Forgeworld Index Xenos for the malanthrope rules.

   
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Bergen

On the scan I have seen of the picture the 2018 does not have the 2017 updates?

I am a dyslectic, so bear with me.

Dyslectics in a text based environment? Dakka is aware of you and sympathises with any troubles you have: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/505863.page

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South Florida

There is a Forgeworld section in there in CA 2018, and it has Malanthrope listed at 140.

   
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Augusta GA

Had a tournament today, ran 3 pyrovores and they did pretty well for themselves. The flamers were kind of meh on offense since I brought a ton of anti-infantry but 12 wounds worth of explodey acid blood was super annoying for the enemy to deal with, epecially in a defensive role as overwatch and screening for the squishier elements.

Sporocysts were my MVPs as always. People ignore them to take out tyrants and stealers first, and they get punished for it every time.
   
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 Badablack wrote:
Had a tournament today, ran 3 pyrovores and they did pretty well for themselves. The flamers were kind of meh on offense since I brought a ton of anti-infantry but 12 wounds worth of explodey acid blood was super annoying for the enemy to deal with, epecially in a defensive role as overwatch and screening for the squishier elements.

Sporocysts were my MVPs as always. People ignore them to take out tyrants and stealers first, and they get punished for it every time.

Nice, I gotta dust mine off again. I don't really have the mines to support all 3 unfortunately, that's the hardest part about playing Sporocysts I think lol. How do you deploy them usually?

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Augusta GA

Depends on what I’m fighting. Against something like orks or other nids that are gonna be zipping over I’ll put them pretty far back so they don’t get murdered and will probably have range all game. Before the deep strike nerf I’d stick them in the back to force melee to split their strength but no more of that unfortunately. They make excellent screens and LOS blockers for that as well.
Against ranged armies like guard or tau I’ll put them up as far as I can, and depending on the mission either spread them out to take advantage of grabbing objectives or just clump them all in one spot to rain Spores and shots on some unlucky flank.

Against Eldar of all types they can usually reach out and blow them up wherever I put them so they just stay near the middle where they can spread Spores and have range as needed.
   
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Netherlands

Has anyone noticed that Tyranids can have a super cheap brigade?

3 x biovores in heavy
3 x lictors in elite
3 x mucolids in fast
6 x msu rippers in core
3 x HQ.

If you go for barebones tyranid primes you can get the whole brigade for 740 pts give or take. You can make them into actual useful HQs for about 1k pts, which leaves another 1000 pts to go out of our way and just amass anything, since we already got a million CP.

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 SHUPPET wrote:
I'm sorry, but Amish is right. If you are not playing with a minimum of enough LoS blocking to conceal a unit of Hive Guard from LoS, then you are playing a different game. Competitive 40k hinges on having a decent amount of LoS blocking terrain, that's why every single tournament has that and that it's so commonly recommended. This is the standard. One of the tables (there's multiple) at my local has this, and I know what I'm going into when I play on it, and it's a completely different game, even with or without Hive Guard.

If you play at a tournament here in germany you can't assume to have big LOS blocking terrain.
It is rather uncommon that one would be able to hide 6 HG outside of LOS.

Ill show you what i mean.
last year i went to one of the biggest 40k tournaments in germany. It hat 104 players.
But in 4 out of 5 games that i played there was no terrain on the table were i could hide 6 HG.
The worst table i had to play my 3rd game an was basically empty except for one 6" x 6" house in the middle.
My opponent was a fairly good tau player. So... I was tabled in his the second turn ^^.

I will upload 2 pics of the 4th 5th game. Sorry for the bad quality my cell cam is bad.

Spoiler:

Spoiler:


So in many of my games in tournaments my HG die the second turn or even the first turn. I always screen them and have a -1 to hit bubble on them.

I am not complaining. the HG will almost always be able to get their points back or even more.
but if your opponent knows hat he is doing he will shoot them off the table real fast.

What I am trying to say is that I am also considering taking a Exocrine BC of that absence of LOS blocking terrain.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2019/01/27 23:02:53


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Bergen

On those two pictures, surly the aria terain is aria teian? Like 8th edition works. Just plop them do they touch the grey and they are in cover.

Bot table has some walls you can hide behind. But in my opinion they are a bit wasted being so far from the middle.

I am a dyslectic, so bear with me.

Dyslectics in a text based environment? Dakka is aware of you and sympathises with any troubles you have: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/505863.page

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While most of my local has good terrain, not EVERY table where I play has it either. But I understand that this is not the competitive standard, so when I discuss tactica I talk about the competitive standard.

Though I think even on a table without terrain, Exocrine is subpar. I'd honestly prefer something like two Jorm TFEX with Rupture Cannon under a Malanthrope bubble. If your AT is gonna get shot at you can at least make it hard to shift. Even better than that would be a SupCom of Abominants with maybe an Abberrant unit, but that depends on how you feel bout GSC allies I guess.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/01/28 00:41:49


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Quick question for any Nidzilla players out there ... are Tyrant Guard an "auto-include" if you are running Swarmlord and a few Hive Tyrants or is it still viable to have a whole bunch of Flyrants zipping about the battlefield without any protection units?


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