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Well, I haven't played a game of 40k since August, because the game, quite honestly, isn't as much fun as Fantasy, and with the new anvil of Doom, my Dwarves have been having a pretty good time.  I'll probably be gaming much of next week because I'll be on spring break, and although I've been toying around with the idea of starting Tau, I really don't want to spend money.  So I have two different lists with a very minor difference.  Here's list one, which is what I was last using:

Farseer x1 - Witchblade, Pistol, Guide, Ghosthelm, RoWitnessing (rides in a Falcon)
Warlock x2 - Singing Spear, Pistol, Conceal (one per Wraithguard squad)
Wraithguard x5
Wraithguard x5
Wave Serpent x2 - TL Bright Lances, Spirit Stones, Star Engines
Wraithlord x2 - Flamer x2, Starcannon
Falcon x3 - Starcannon, Shuricannon, Spirit Stones, Holofield
Vyper x2 - Starcannon (seperate squadrons)

Total: 1846

Well, army #2 is almost identical, except I drop the Star Engines from the Serpents, I drop the Witchblade from the Farseer replacing it with a CCW, I drop the pistols from the Warlocks, and I add a third Vyper with a Shuriken Cannon.  It runs 1850 exactly.  Basically, I lose a Witchblade that will probably never be used and Star Engines.  For this, I get one more super-mobile yet super-fragile Shuriken Cannon.  It's one more fast unit to grab an objective, but the thing is so damned fragile, much like the other vypers, a bolter volley could easily bring it down.  And without AP2, it will be best used to go after the side armor of medium tanks. S6 AP5 can only go so far, even with 3 shots.  And losing the Star Engines is actually a loss as well.  I find that because I want to expose my serpents to as little fire as possible, when I need them to cover ground, I find that the extra 7" or so can go a long way.  I don't want to be taking much fire on my way to a tank.  That extra 2D6" could be what gets my Wraithguard within their meager 12" range.  Conversely, the randomness does promulgate some weird situations, like "What happens if I roll off the board" or "Can this cause a tank shock?"  or "Damnit, instead of stopping behind the Size 3 terrain piece out of LOS, I'm on top of it and exposed to every gun on the battlefield."  So those cut both ways, I suppose.  The real question is, is an extra 2D6" for each Serpent if I so desire worth sacrificing for a single super-mobile shuriken cannon.

I guess I have a 3rd option, which would be to drop one shuriken cannon from a Falcon, drop the Shuriken cannon Vyper, and add CTMs to both Starcannon Vypers.  That would theoretically keep them safe and it would let me actually use 2 of the 5 forgeworld CTMs I have lying around.  I'm starting to like the idea because of the theoretical safety it provides, so that the Vypers might actually have a chance of surviving until turn 6 and grabbing some objective.  Conversely, if I somehow am unable to keep them out of LOS (and they'll be competing with the serpents, who will hopefully only be seen for 2 turns of the entire game), then I've increased their pt cost by about 54%.  I still like the idea, though.

PS: Do not question my choice of taking conceal.  When the Wraithguard unload to take out the tank, pie plates and the like inevitably unload on the incredibly fragile 35 pt models.  And if even one of them makes his cover save, I've made back 35 of the 40 pts I've invested.  And if that one save keeps the squad from dropping from 4-3 (to below 50%), even if it's the first save, and then you take 3 more wounds to stay at 50%, it's saved even more pts than that.

Anyway, I appreciate the input.  But Fantasy still rules!

EDIT: Pt value for the list fixed. - 1850

Solid 1500 Iyanden army. I'd perhaps worry about those Wraithguard getting knocked about in CC as much as shooting, since even Tau can out-punch them, but I'm not sure what the solution to that is.

I'm not keen on the random movement though.

The solution is not to put your wraithguard anywhere that they'll get assaulted by something that'll kill them.

Personally I don't think you NEED the singing spears, but that's a play-style choice.

You have plenty of vehicle-killy-goodness in the wraithguards, your wraithlords should have other guns (Starcannons, for example) to help with MEQ crowd control.

Only other real suggestion I'd have is to put something in the falcons for objective grabbing. Aspect warriors? A small storm guardian squads? (I forget the restrictions for iyanden, but there are some small reasonably cheap squads you can use). Perhaps get those points by dropping a falcon? I play a 3 falcon army and get LOTS of crap for it from my opponents (not that I agree with this attitude, but still), two falcons won't get that reaction nearly as much.

Alternately, I'd add in Kroot to up the body count...

Noob, I'm not particularly keen on comp. And when I'm playing Iyanden, I just laugh at people who give me crap for it.

"Your list is so cheesy."
"I'm playing Iyanden!" *hysterical laughter* "Can you believe this guy!? I'm playing Iyanden!" *cool down chuckle*

Good point.

I'm just sort of used to the anti-eldar bias, even though it's not as true these days as it used to be.

EDIT: One more thing, are you sure that's under 1500 points? A quick estimate seems like it'd be more.  600+ for the falcons, 100 for the vypers, 100+ for each wraithlords, 100+ for each serpent, around 200 for each squad of guard with a warlock, and around 100 for the farseer.  That adds up to 1600, and it's a rather low estimate...

"Damnit, instead of stopping behind the Size 3 terrain piece out of LOS, I'm on top of it and exposed to every gun on the battlefield."

Errr you do know you just ignore the terrain you are hovering over, not *every* peice of terrain.

Also, got enough Star Cannons?

I cant see much anti tank except for the falcons pulse laser (no, with a 12" range Wraithguard are *not* anti tank)

Id suggest swapping the Starcannons on the Vipers for Bright lances to get in some decent Anti tank (2 twin linked brightlances is not enough IMHO

For a 1500pts force it is quite solid... considering you are over by 176pts. either that or you are 174pts under if its 1850pts...

Aeon: His wave serpents have twin-linked bright lances, so I'm pretty sure he's okay on that front.

Oh, damnit! That's what you all kept talking about. The original list is 1846, not 1496. That's where all the confusion stems from. And lists #2 & #3 are both 1850 on the nose. Ok. To clear up any misunderstanding, here's the basic army:

Farseer
Warlock
Warlock
Wraithguard
Wraithguard
Serpent
Serpent
Wraithlord
Wraithlord
Falcon
Falcon
Falcon
Vyper
Vyper
(Sometimes a 3rd Vyper - list #2)

Sorry about that, guys. Ok, I hope I make more sense now.

Aeon, I find your assertion interesting. Wraithguard are not anti-tank. Interesting. Perhaps they are anti-infantry? After all, they will do a mightly 1.667 casualties for their squad of 5. Clearly, in any other list, I wouldn't be taking them. But in this list, I have to take 2 squads. Yes, I have thought about ditching both serpents, both warlocks, and leaving the squads behind some size 3 terrain all game. That leaves me with a 350 pt handicap. I'm going to ditch 19% of my army because it's inneffective? Well, we know that they have to stay in serpents to get within 12." And I have to take the Warlocks, lest they blackout in the moment of truth. Even with conceal, I'm not about to foot-slog a squad of 6 models across the board, even if they are as hard to kill as Deathguard marines. You just don't do that, especially when you can't infiltrate. That and the squad of deathguard can take 2 plasma guns, which alone can do 33% more damage than all 5 Wraithgaurd. So as infantry killers, you'll do a mighty 1.667 wounds. Then you'll get obliterated, as everything within 12" of you can rapid-fire and fire their heavy weapons, and 35 pt models that drop to heavy weapons and plasma just as easily as Marines, even with a 5+ cover save, but cost more than two Marines, are simply targets too good to pass up. "But you can assault after you fire!" That will never happen. Footsloggers will never survive, and spending an extra turn in a Serpent is a deathwish.

Should the Wraithguard be killing monstrous creatures? Great. They can wound a carnifex, HT, Talos, whatever on a 4+ at AP1. That sounds great. Until you realize that just like against infantry, they'll do less than 2 wounds. That's nice, but if it lives, you get to watch in horror as your 35 pt models are butchered over 2-3 rounds of combat, helpless to do much. Sure, hopefully you've already taken it down to 1.667 wounds, but if you've already got the thing to under 2 wounds, why even risk your guys getting butchered. Unlike tanks, if you don't kill a monstrous creature entirely, it stays 100% effective.

So you've stated that Wraithguard aren't vehicle killers, but unfortunately, that's all that they can do. They honestly can't do anything else without dying, and even killing vehicles is a risky proposition. But it's less risky than doing 1.667 wounds to a infantry squad and getting mowed down, and it's less risky than doing 1.667 wounds to a monstrous creature and getting ripped apart. The squad of 5 averages 1.11 penetrating hit and .55 glancing hits, no matter the AV. There's no better way to drop a Monolith in the game, except perhaps for the Railgun, because of its range (6x that of the Wraithcannon, for that matter). And the singing spear, which until now was good for .19 MEQs per turn, is now a BS4 Lascannon. And to anyone who claims the Singing Spear can only glance, please direct them to your codex, which clearly states the spear as AP n/a. Against armor 14, that's an extra .11 penetrating and an extra .11 glancing hits. Against AV13 (predators, anyone?), that's an extra .22 penetrating and an extra .11 glancing hits. Against AV11 (predator side armor, however rare), we're looking at an extra .44 penetrating and an extra .11 glancing hits. Nothing to scoff at. And, if nothing else, TL Bright Lances are always a plus.

I'm not saying that Wraithguard are great tank hunters. I'm saying that in an Iyanden list, you have no other choice.

Singing spears good on farseer, questionable on warlock. But in an army with very few brightlances I can't question it.

I think your list is very very tough, but not as tough as any other Eldar army with 3 falcons against your average take all comers list. Against primarily shooting armies you'll have a pretty easy game due to how many very resilient things you have to kill. An assaulty army with enough firepower to slow the falcons down will give you trouble, as they'll power klaw your wraithlord/guard in assault and take a lot of vps from you very quickly.

Longshot, I understand that this is not a top-tier list. Iyanden simply cannot be a top-tier list. I'm sure a truly great player could win tournaments with it, but the list itself is never going to be top-tier. I vowed long ago that I would never play anything with power armor. I'm just trying to min-max the hell out of it until I can optomize no more.

So, in the words of Jack Nicholson, "What if this is as good as it gets?"

That's what I'm trying to get out of this. Can there possibly be a more effective list than this? I'm pretty sure I have the basic build down, with the 2 WLs, 3 Falcons, and 2 Serpents of WG, with the Farseer guiding a Falcon. But what next? Do I start dropping Vypers in favor of 6 man Storm-Guardian squads with two flamers each? Do I switch a starcannon for a bright lance on a Vyper?

I'm going for the ultimate Iyanden build here. And I think the way to do it is mobile-shooty (see above).

Aeon, I find your assertion interesting. Wraithguard are not anti-tank. Interesting. Perhaps they are anti-infantry?

They are neither, they are the keys to unlocking Wraithlords as troops, nothing more

Seriously, there gun is 12" hits on 3's glances on 4's and penetrates on 5's and 6's

groups of 5 dont do much damage and groups higher than five are too slow.

Aeon: His wave serpents have twin-linked bright lances, so I'm pretty sure he's okay on that front.

2 twin-linked bright lances arent enough in 1850pts, and yes the wraithguard do help, but for them to work they need to be within 12", assault distance from any troops that are nearby.

Yes, I have thought about ditching both serpents

Ive tried Iyanden with alot of combinations (albiet in a Oz setting where there is comp and sports) and I think the two wave serpants need to stay with the 5 wraithguard, just dont get them out and they become mobile scoring units. Not great but its better than giving the VPs directly to the opponent rather than just hanging onto them.

Drop the warlocks with these squads, as you wont be getting them out you wont need to use there conceal or anything else and so you save some points.

Should the Wraithguard be killing monstrous creatures? Great. They can wound a carnifex, HT, Talos, whatever on a 4+ at AP1. That sounds great. Until you realize that just like against infantry, they'll do less than 2 wounds

With the Wraithlord they can take out the big guys (flamers and star cannons are the best here), the Wave Serpants use there range, manouvability and bright lances to take out the vehicles. With the Wraithguard in there hold they are a scoring unit (ok contain a scoring unit) and so can be a threat in all missions being able to move 24" in that last turn to deposit an expensive enemy unit. But you are right, Iyanden has trouble with hordes, thats why I invest in Warp Spiders, they are gold! esp when you have a very manouvable army like this one.

I'm going for the ultimate Iyanden build here. And I think the way to do it is mobile-shooty

Yep, you are on the right track, but you need to account for the following;
4 Bright lances, at least 2 twinlinked for anti tank
2 Wraithlords and a Avatar for tying up armoured squads
Warp Spiders for anti horde
Wraithguard hiding in the relatively safe serpants (relatively assuming you use range and manouvability to restrict los to only you and your target
Farseer on Jetbike with fortune (Warp Spiders/Wraithguard) and guide (vypers and falcon) oh and witchblade so you can tie up squads with your 3+/4++ rerollable save

The only slightly better list is to get a third waveserpent by dropping the vypers and trimming your HQ/singing spears.

So Aeon you advice leaving a 175 pt unit sitting inside a fairly fragile transport the entire game, instead of dropping it out to kill vehicles?

Maybe you should just paint a 'kick me for victory points' sign on your wave serpents, and then circle it a few times.

Buy warp spiders? More expensive, fragile troops for an army low on scorping units? And a 150 pt farseer and an avatar, again - I smell genius.

Your army weighs in at around 2200 pts unless you start dropping falcons or putting bright lances on them (equally damaged ideas).

My two cents:
I kinda like BigChris' list as it resembles my own (to some extent...I will never take more falcons than I can put farseers on).
Also, I will never take Conceal, either (I prefer Enhance...explanation below).

Do I agree that Wraithguard shouldn't be anti-tank? Not really. IMHO, wraithguard are great against vehicles, since the Warlock could take a Witchblade & shuripistol (mine always do). But, as far as I'm concerned, they're useful as shock troops (especially against the likes of Tau and Guard, but even against SM). Of course, this doesn't mean that you'll throw your forces forward immediately; I make it a point to engage from a distance first (hence the brightlances on the wave serpents).
In other words, since my Iyanden doesn't have any other infantry-type unit, I want my wraithguard to be able to do multiple things: blow up tanks, and still be resilient in assault (of course, I avoid anything with power weapons/fists like the plague...those things I shoot). Just like Terminators (without the better armour saves and invul. saves)

I've considered taking star engines, though...then again, of late, I've been seriously considering taking an alll-my-vehicles-have-CTM list (having fewer models then, I played with an all-CTM list with 2 WS, a falcon and vyper for Iyanden in a 2000 pt tourney...didn't lose a match. Of course, losing a vehicle is painful...that and CTM is only useful in terrain heavy environments, so using it is often a gamble). Of course, I'd only take star engines, over CTM, if my environment was full of shooty lists that didn't have fairly decent counter-charge units (riiight...even Guard have those nasty Rough Riders).

Dang...number-crunching for 1,850 is harder (we usually play either 1,500 or 2,000...and some here are of the opinion that 1,850 is stupid as it isn't divisible by 250 pts...or something like that ;D )...but I'd still go with 3x squads of Wraithguard w/ warlocks w/ WB&SP, Enh and 3x wraithlords. Falcons? I'd drop all but one (as I mentioned before, I'd never take more falcons that I can have a farseer for Guide), but that's me (then again, 3 falcons, as far as numbers go, are hard to take down...of course, all it needs to go down are several lucky shots...)

The idea of the farseer on a jetbike has merit, though. But I'd give him mind war, RoW, and a singing spear.

As above, I'd say no to Warp Spiders. In another list, like Biel-tan perhaps, but not Iyanden.

I also do not agree with the tactic of having the Wraithguard sitting idly inside Wave Serpents all game...that is both foolish and risky. You either have them go tank-hunting or assaulting, or leave them in your deployment area (or somewhere in cover...) while your armoured assets and wraithlords pommel the other army from a distance. (of course, if you're fighting assault armies, like Khorne, which may lack in the ability to bring down Wave Serpents easily or consistently, then one could leave them inside...but that is, after all, an exception)

Hope any of that even remotely helps...ciao for now,

Farseer Iakobos
Craftworld Iyanden
Firm believer in the Hammer-and-Anvil (or, when that fails...in the Hammer ;D )

So Aeon you advice leaving a 175 pt unit sitting inside a fairly fragile transport the entire game, instead of dropping it out to kill vehicles?

Yep.

With Iyanden you need to have everything working together, but the wraith guard are the weak link, by keeping them in the wave serpent they aren?t being targeted by my opponents anti personal fire. As soon as they on the ground they are easy VP?s for your opponents to score.

You drop the unit, your opponent can then target the unit with his army. Since you are within 12? your squad and transport are now at risk of rapid fire weaponry and assault, both things your Wraith guard don?t need. Also the plasma guns that your opponent has can target the Wave Serpent after your opponent has killed your Wraith guard.

Yes the guns are good against armour, but for them to be in range they have to be within 12?. Taking out vehicles with Wraith guard should only be done in 3 circumstances

1. It?s the last turn and you cant get the squad to where it needs to be to be worth scoring unit points because your transport is dead
2. You are where you need to be and you are covered from your opponents retribution by intervening terrain
3. Your opponent sends out a tank where it is not supported

Maybe you should just paint a 'kick me for victory points' sign on your wave serpents, and then circle it a few times.

As opposed to your suggestion of giving your opponent your most expensive squads on a silver platter?

Buy warp spiders? More expensive, fragile troops for an army low on scoring units?

Have you used warp spiders before? Yes they are expensive (cheaper than normal jet pack troops thou) and yes they are fragile (T3 and all that) but they are still 3+ Armour save (re-rollable with fortune), can move up to 24? while pumping out 20 S6 BS4 or better shots. And you can use them to ambush a unit, cut it to ribbons enforcing fire superiority and perhaps sniping a troublesome model then vanishing back out of line of sight and ignoring all terrain.

Yea, I think you are right, they do suck

In Iyanden where you have a small amount of firepower, this unit will allow you to raze most 4+ or worse squads and even small las/plas squads.

And a 150 pt farseer and an avatar, again - I smell genius.

Actually I don?t use a Avatar, I thought the list had it; my fault

As for the farseer, the one I play with is about 186 odd points and have always been able to use it to great effect. Being able to keep pace with the rest of the army is gold as is being able to guide guns to improve a units BS (thou I?ve been thinking of dropping it since recent builds haven?t really taken good advantage of it.

However Fortune is gold, being able to fortune warp spiders is a good way of soaking up my opponents firepower. Since I almost always have a cover save if I?m not out of LOS of my opponent (as Warp Spiders ignore terrain) I will be getting a save from every weapon in 40K (well except for divine guidance flamers that is).

Mind War is also very useful if you have the spare points, but its not mandatory I feel.

Your army weighs in at around 2200 pts unless you start dropping falcons or putting bright lances on them (equally damaged ideas).

Did I really have to say that in order to change the army you had to *gasp* take stuff out? Well I?m sorry for the misunderstanding and assuming a minimum level of mathematics: D

As for the modifications, for the extra bright lances, simply change the viper weapons to Bright lances.

Multiple falcons are hard to kill yes, but really, do they really kill there 200+ or so points per game?

Besides if your opponent knows the falcons are hard to kill and you have three, they will just devote there Anti-tank to the wave serpents. If you have two or even one then your opponent might instead go for the unkillable falcon since the pay off in there mind will be higher (killing one halves your available falcons.) You will be surprised at how you can influence your opponents game through this. A course at uni in Psychology helped me with this ?

Ditch one for a squad of Warp Spiders, remove the warlocks for the farseer to have at least a jetbike and fortune (with runes of witnessing, pistol, witchblade and possibly a ghosthelm if you play a lot of Daemons)

The farseer is good for providing psychic support and taking on devastator squads (T5 and a 3+/4++ save re-rolled will almost always outlast your opponents as long as they aren?t assault troops.)

Now I don?t know about anyone else commenting on the list, but I do have a Iyanden army and have used it quite abit so am familiar with how it works. My ideas aren?t obviously for anyone, but Im a decent (well I like to think so) tourny player and have won a few tournaments (including a ?Best Overall?at a GT with Thousand Sons) so have thought through the options available.

Bear in mind that I am from the Oz tourny scene and it differs from the UK and US in that its not WAAC because there is a strong peer comp/sports factors in tournaments, and peoples preconceived notions need to be taken into account.

Warp spiders don't suck, they just have zero place in the Iyanden army. Expensive guys are the last thing you need. They're great in Biel-Tan lists.

Fortune is good, but not the be-all-and-end-all. A 186 pt character simply does not belong in this list. Period. It's one less scoring unit that you can ill-afford.

Falcons are not about killing their points, though they almost always do. A common fallacy in the hobby is that something has to kill its points to make it useful - this is only correct if the unit dies. Falcons are apt to survive the entire game and score at the end, being almost impossible to dislodge from objectives and being able to move 24" in the last turn if necessary. They make Eldar work because they provide a core of 3 nearly unstoppable 210 pt scoring units that can grab any objectives at the end of the game. I'm not sure why I'm explaining this since you'd rather try out your snappy comebacks than pay read what I am saying to you.

The idea that anyone would ever trade a falcon for a squad of warpspiders is ridiculous. Trading 5+ saves and another S9 anti-vehicle attack, and making your wraithguard non-stupid for more tooling up on your character is a bad, bad idea. I'd much rather protect my scoring units with fortune and just skip the rest of the doo-dads on the farseer.

I'm glad you won a few tournaments but neither your victories nor your university education have helped your reading comprehension, as Chris did not ask "how can I make a crappy fluff list that wins in comp land?" so much as "How can I make my list nastier? I don't really care about comp."

I think Wraithguard are very good tank-hunters, albeit in the right situation... 5 shots, hitting on 3s and penning on 5 or 6s with a singing spear for back up? I'll take that! The main problem is ensuring they don't get shot / punched up in the process.

Thinking about it, a brightlance on a Wraithlord might be useful, as the Serpents probably won't do so much work.

<shakes head>

I explained all of my ideas with explanations of why I chose them,

I didnt bring fluff into it except to make you understand that it might be a factor into some of my choices.

I dont rate Wraithguard at all, and because of such I use them differently, I dont put them out to be shot at, I use them as place holders that are protected somewhat until the end game. Like you said before, the unit only has to earn its points back if it dies. If it survives until the end of the game to claim an objective, isnt that better than putting it in harms way and seeing them destroyed in return only for stunned vehicle.

The idea that anyone would ever trade a falcon for a squad of warpspiders is ridiculous.

With Iyanden, you have alot of expensive units but they dont have alot of damage dealing. Id rather go for units that can make up for that lack of firepower that is also hard to destroy; thats why I like the warp spiders, they also fill out another weakness of the Iyanden list, without them you will struggle against Orks and Nids, at least with the Warp Spiders you have something to help you.

Trading 5+ saves and another S9 anti-vehicle attack, and making your wraithguard non-stupid for more tooling up on your character is a bad, bad idea.

But if Im not intending for the Wraithguard to get out of the transports, why do I need the warlocks?
Besides if they are stupid, they are still scoring
Also, it wasnt just to spend points for a character, it was freeing up points that you implied couldnt be done

It's one less scoring unit that you can ill-afford.

Scoring units may be few in an iyanden army, but the VP's tied up in those scoring units are also important, Id rather spend a few points protecting my investment instead of taking brittle units that give up points easy

I'm not sure why I'm explaining this since you'd rather try out your snappy comebacks than pay read what I am saying to you.

Translation: 'Welcome to Dakka'

Chris did not ask "how can I make a crappy fluff list that wins in comp land?" so much as "How can I make my list nastier? I don't really care about comp."

I'm not sure why I'm explaining this since you'd rather try out your snappy comebacks than pay read what I am saying to you, but I didnt suggest a crappy fluff list, I suggested a different alternative that I feel works well in my environment

I'm glad you won a few tournaments but neither your victories nor your university education have helped your reading comprehension

Winning tournaments just means you are a decent player who has a clue about what they are talking about...or that you are a powergamer called timmy who loves to win at all costs.
And a University education isnt that hard (unless you want it to teach you reading comprehension ), I mean if I can do it, anyone can

Leaving them in transports means when the transport pops they sit there pinned for a turn, and take casualties (with rerolled failed wounds on a 4+). How is that better than you dictating when they get out of the transport by deploying them and using them offensively?

Leave them in your deployment zone hiding behind terrain - that I can understand. It's like the 'necron phase insurance' tactic. But leave them in their tin coffins? I think not.

Getting 'welcome to dakka'd' by someone who is speaking sense, that I can accept. I have been 'owned' numerous times for saying silly crap without thinking it through over the years and it makes me a better player. However, your absurd advice is failing to support your dakka toughguy attitude. You need to step up your game.

Im not a tough guy

I just have tried using wraith guard offensively with no real success

My playing partner is the highest ranked tourny goer in Oz/NZ at the mo and so have been playing against some decent competition, and he has worked with me to see if I could do an effective list in our tournament environment. Thats not saying that I know what Im talking about, rather that I have an idea of what Im talking about.

Leaving them in transports means when the transport pops they sit there pinned for a turn, and take casualties (with rerolled failed wounds on a 4+). How is that better than you dictating when they get out of the transport by deploying them and using them offensively?

Its better because when you get out of the transport suddenly your opponent can bring thier anti-personal firepower into play. By keeping them in there tanks they are protected by two things; the armour that a vehicle has, and the amount of anti-vehicle weapons your opponent has. Yes entanglement is a real possibility, but I think that risk is less than dropping them off. Mind you there are no strict rules to this, the opportunity at popping a Land Raider Crusader that is full of Assault Marines is a main example of something you will want to use your tactic for. However I dont think its worth doing to a Rhino that has a squad full of battle sisters with melta guns.

Reading your comment about the tin coffins, I think Ive realised why you think my idea is bad, since a wave serpent is a transport and transports are bad, that makes having things in transports bad?

I can understand, but Wave Serpents are in my experience more survivable than other transports, especially when you have a number of vehicles to dilute your opponents vehicle weapons.

Just a difference of opinion I guess and it looks as if Im on my own here, but hey, each to there own, its just a game after all

My other two cents:
Before people start further the throwing of personal attacks at each other...

Aeon's idea has merit...to some extent.
BUT I don't necessarily agree with it. Reason: Its NOT, IMHO, the most efficient use of Wraithguard.
It may work... but is it the most efficient use of wraithguard? With such a tactic, why bring wraithguard at all? Because you're playing Iyanden? I'm almost tempted to ask if Aeon is an Iyanden player, at all...(not meant as an insult, mind you...)
I have tried a similar tactic before, mind you...but in those cases, I used CTM (I could move-shoot-go back into cover...keeping the cargo safe), unlike in your examples.

I too have played (and beaten...with Iyanden) with the local best general, so perhaps my comments/suggestions/recommendations should be listened to immediately? I don't think so.
IMHO, its not who you play with or how good you are in your area...but how sound the tactics are in general. Now, if you, or your playing partner has beaten the best in at least each continent, then perhaps it'd be different.

It also doesn't mean that if you tried one thing, and failed, that it can't be done...perhaps you were just doing it wrong? Perhaps your environment truly didn't permit it... or perhaps you fought against tailored lists, and failed to adapt?

My two cents regarding the Wave Serpent and Transports in general:
With the exception of lists centered around the concept of using the transports as firing platforms (and no, Iyanden doesn't belong to that category), Transports with guns have two or three jobs: deliver their cargo where they are best used FIRST, and then serve as firing platforms SECOND (third job is to screen/provide cover for other advancing units, but this refers to other transports, such as LRs/LRCs or rhinos).

Lastly...yes, to each his own. BUT I guess we're here trying to see if someone can point out the 'best' ideas for an Iyanden list. IMHO, that means something that works efficiently against anything...hard, IMHO, but not impossible.

Last last bit: I, and some others here, believe that sportsmanship and army comp is *insert expletive here*. We build lists that are number-crunched with the idea of "minimum effort for maximum results" and efficiency in mind.
Iyanden, my primary army, isn't the most competitive of armies, as BigChris may have pointed out...so I'd number-crunch it to heck and back, and wouldn't care a bit about comp, even if I were playing in an event with one.

Ciao for now,

Farseer Iakobos
Craftworld Iyanden
"Cheese: a word by the inept to excuse their inadequacies"

Wraithguard don't suck at killing vehicles, it's the only thing they're good at (that and tying up S3 units forever). 5 wraithguard will almost always glance or pen a vehicle, which is more than you can say for a squad with 2 meltaguns. 5 shots, 10/3 hits, 5/3 glancing or penetrating hits, regardless of armor, that's a pretty solid number.

You're right though, that wraithguard are expensive as hell, so keep them in serpents and use them for vehicle hunting. The speed of a serpent, plus a 3" deployment plus the 12" range of their guns, that's a pretty large threat radius. You just need to be careful with the unit to keep it alive (conceal helps), or if it can take out really expensvie tanks then who cares? Fair trade... Like someone said, a huge part of why you take wraithguard is so you can take wraithlords...

I'm almost tempted to ask if Aeon is an Iyanden player, at all...(not meant as an insult, mind you...)

Yea I am, its one of many armies I have (ex GW Staff... please dont hold that against me )

I have tried a similar tactic before, mind you...but in those cases, I used CTM (I could move-shoot-go back into cover...keeping the cargo safe), unlike in your examples.

I didnt even think of CTM, very nice idea

I too have played (and beaten...with Iyanden) with the local best general, so perhaps my comments/suggestions/recommendations should be listened to immediately?

I didnt say that to get the 'OMG This Guy is a GAWD!!!!' I was saying that I have played it against an experienced opponent many times and with many different configs and the Wraithguard really arent that good and in fact are a weak link in the army and so rather than give my opponent VPs Id rather have them in a position where they are safe and can be used to perhaps take out an expensive vehicle (not any cheap one that is) or a way to give them a chance to hold objectives at the end of the game.

5 wraithguard will almost always glance or pen a vehicle, which is more than you can say for a squad with 2 meltaguns. 5 shots, 10/3 hits, 5/3 glancing or penetrating hits, regardless of armor, that's a pretty solid number.

Am I to understand it that you guys like Wraithguard to blow up any vehicle? dont you realise that with a 12" gun that means you are in rapid fire and assault range, yea I can see good things coming from that, and yes they can kill elite troops well but they still only wound on 4+ (thou the six to wound is quite nice.)

Iyanden, my primary army, isn't the most competitive of armies, as BigChris may have pointed out...so I'd number-crunch it to heck and back, and wouldn't care a bit about comp, even if I were playing in an event with one.

Yes I care about comp, but mainly in the 25% Elites, Fast, Heavy; 40% troops, more troops choices than any other category, etc

I also like the army to do well against hordes and marines, and I think this is where my opinion is based. The list of the original poster is tuned against marines but will go no where as good against hordes. Hence my advice is flawed as I was assuming the list needed help to combat its weaknesses.

Am I to understand it that you guys like Wraithguard to blow up any vehicle? dont you realise that with a 12" gun that means you are in rapid fire and assault range, yea I can see good things coming from that, and yes they can kill elite troops well but they still only wound on 4+ (thou the six to wound is quite nice.)

Yeah, I like wraithguarrd to blow up any vehicle, dunno if I speak for everyone else, but the numbers are there. As for the fact that the wraithcannon's short range puts you within rapid fire and assault range, well, rapid fire isn't that scary, maybe 1 model will die (I think it's 1.33 models for 9 rapid firing marines), but that's not too scary because they should be able to just hop back in the wave serpent. The strategy would be to onliy drop them off where you know they'll be safe for a turn, but still within range of a vehicle. Any vehicle that's not surrounded by troops is a perfect target.

Anyway I'd be much more worried about heavy weapon fire than rapid fire (which isn't that damaging) or assault (which you can avoid with planning)

Another two cents:
Iyanden is a fairly resiilient list (when compared to most other Eldar lists), and is also quite flexible. Its weakness lies in the fact that the core units, the Wraithguard, are quite expensive...which also means that you'll tend to have a low body count.

Yes, Wraithguard only have 12" range and one attack, but used properly, they could be used to assault and break even MEQ units (warlock w/ WB & SP, enhance...then use a similar tactic as assaulting with bike squads: hit one unit with multiple squads: 10x attacks at initiative 5, WS 5, Strength 5 + the warlock's attacks, x2 or more squads, isn't something to laugh about). Of course, as with bikes, they're still fragile (the lack of an better armour and an invul. save of their 'equivalent' in the SM lists, the Terminator)...a trait seemingly shared by most Eldar units.
That is why they should be accompanied by Wraithlords. Yes, they're slow...but what better to accompany a mechanized list than a solid center (the fast, mobile units form the 'hammer', and the slow, yet tough wraithlords form the 'anvil'). They may not get into Close Combat, but when all units are presented as one force, it should make your opponent think: Present him with multiple units, all of which produce varying levels of threat. If he shoots at the wraithlords, your wave serpents and vypers are free to manuever, and, if used properly (such as being placed in cover), wraithlords should last an Iyanden player the majority of the game.
If he shoots the vypers and wave serpents, he allows the wraithlords to pick off his army from a distance (BS4 shots by starcannons...nasty. This is also the reason why I'd never put brightlances on wraithlords: they're ideal as starcannon platforms. That and brightlances have a greater chance of hitting when in a wave serpent).

I hope that bit helps at all...

Now...onto CTM:
I've found CTM to be very useful. You see, not every army can be assaulted by Iyanden (duh!). Units such as Chosen, Terminators, Obliterators, Squads with Powerfists, etc. are all barriers to assault. In such a case, what is an army, that has limited number, but high manueverability (thanks to the wave serpents, vypers and/or falcons) to do? It tries to outshoot that which it cannot assault. Unfortunately, the most effective eldar weapons have a shorter range than most of the heavy weapons fielded by non-Eldar lists. Hence my case for the usage of the Crystal Targetting Matrix.
Yes. I know. Its expensive and makes the loss of the vehicles with CTM so much more painful. On the other hand, it gives the Iyanden player the opportunity to whittle away at his opponent's forces in the initial turns, and may even force what may be a static opponent into abandoning his strategy. Yes, it relies on terrain that blocks LoS...and I know that in tournaments, one may end up fighting on a table without any such terrain. That's why its a gamble...an expensive one. On the other hand, playing Iyanden is an expensive gamble to begin with. Is CTM an efficient option, I'd say that it isn't the most cost-effective option...but its use can be crucial.
As I may have mentioned beforehand/elsewhere, I used an all CTM-Iyanden list in tables with a fair amount of terrain. I played a 1,719 pt list against opponents with 2,000 pt forces...both games were massacres in my favour. Of course, relying on CTM may spoil one...that's why I guess one has to learn adaptability as a key trait in playing warhammer.

Re: WG tank-hunting
That's why you use 'em properly. You're playing Eldar, and Eldar with Transports are quite manueverable: dropping the WG on the side of the vehicle where there are no troops is a valid tactic, it also blocks LoS to the Wave Serpent. But what if the vehicle I want to destroy is flanked on both sides (which may mean a broad deployment...and lots of troops)? Decide: assault the troops, or damage the vehicles?
There are many potential variables in a match, and no sane general would play so foolishly (I hope not!) as to drop his Wraithguard in such a poor environment. If he does, then he deserves to lose.
But is tank-hunting with WG a valid tactic? Hell yeah! But do I use them exclusively, or do I recommend their use exclusively, for that purpose: Heck no! Each battle presents various situations, Wraithguard are quite flexible and could be used in various situations.
"From one thing, know ten thousand things" - Musashi

Re: Comp
Shouldn't be too big a problem with Iyanden anyways...considering that each Wraithguard squad w/ warlock and Wave Serpent almost comes down to 400 pts each...

Ciao for now...hope this helps,

Farseer Iakobos
Craftworld Iyanden
-Tanith 1st & Only
-Black Templars w/ Inquisitorial forces (in hiatus)
-High Elves (when I get to work on 'em)
-Khador (in hiatus)

"There are no miracles. There are only men." - Saint Sabbat, Epistles

Don't know your local meta game enough to know how you feel about this kind of stuff, but what if you dropped a unit of wraithguard and a wraith lord, and instead upped the number of vipers to 7? Granted if you wanted to play Saim-Hann you could just play Saim-Hann but 4 HS choices instead of 1 is a pretty nice distinguishment from that list imo.

Also, how do Eldar elites fare in your neck of the woods? If it's not worth it to take any aspects because they simply aren't competitive enough I understand completely, just thought that maybe a unit of dragons or banshees in a wave serpent accompanying your wraithguard might get some more life out of them. In my gaming group I tend to face las/plas maddness so I'm really not keen on wraithlords as they tend to get shot up super fast. I tend to either not take them at all or go nuts and take 3 (for non-competitive fun games as I have to take the obligatory 3 wg squads as well )

Dropping a unit of wg and a lord would certainly give you a lot more flexibility to do other things but I understand if they gotta stay for comp reasons or what not.