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 Freakazoitt wrote:

Vaktathi wrote:K, one American fighting on the Ukrainian side, and old man who volunteered, and he's dead. AFAIK there's one fighting with the DNR.

Not just one. Some ex-backwaters group there.

Any source on that?

Even if they were there, they're mercenaries fighting for a paycheck, and there's very definitely such groups on both sides currently.

And USA sent instructors to train UAF. It was published in US, Ukraine and Russian news.

Yes, there's about 200 US troops engaged in training exercises in Kiev, but they're not a combat group anywhere near the front lines, and their whereabouts are rather well known. They're not out there engaging in combat, they're not providing direct battle assistance, basically they're trying (who knows how successfully) to show the Ukrainians how to get their heads out of their asses. Nobody has been trying to hide that, but they're not a major military asset, aren't engaged in active fighting, and are hundreds of kilometers from the actual fighting. They're a token show of support so that the US can say it's doing something without actually really doing anything.

 Freakazoitt wrote:
It takes 2 hours to make T-72BM from 72B. Ukraine used Romanian and Hungarian armour kits to repair soviet 72s and sell to arabs,

So they somehow made a tank variant that is fairly recent, and not exported outside of russia in two hours? Okay then!

 Vaktathi wrote:

 Freakazoitt wrote:

Vaktathi wrote:K, one American fighting on the Ukrainian side, and old man who volunteered, and he's dead. AFAIK there's one fighting with the DNR.

Not just one. Some ex-backwaters group there.

Any source on that?

Even if they were there, they're mercenaries fighting for a paycheck, and there's very definitely such groups on both sides currently.

Google full of that information. Many of mercenaries were recognized.
http://globaleconomicanalysis.blogspot.ru/2015/01/email-from-us-special-forces-veteran.html

 Vaktathi wrote:

And USA sent instructors to train UAF. It was published in US, Ukraine and Russian news.

Yes, there's about 200 US troops engaged in training exercises in Kiev, but they're not a combat group anywhere near the front lines, and their whereabouts are rather well known. They're not out there engaging in combat, they're not providing direct battle assistance, basically they're trying (who knows how successfully) to show the Ukrainians how to get their heads out of their asses. Nobody has been trying to hide that, but they're not a major military asset, aren't engaged in active fighting, and are hundreds of kilometers from the actual fighting. They're a token show of support so that the US can say it's doing something without actually really doing anything.

What's the point to train them how to kill civilians?
Why not to concentrate on peaceful solution?

It might be nice if both sides did that.

 Co'tor Shas wrote:
It might be nice if both sides did that.

You, mean, Donetsk made artillery bombardment on Donetsk? Absurd

 Freakazoitt wrote:

 Co'tor Shas wrote:
It might be nice if both sides did that.

You, mean, Donetsk made artillery bombardment on Donetsk? Absurd

No, reach for a peaceful solution.

Oh...

DNR militia just defending civilians from genocide. Unfortunately, UAF and Praviy Sector can use artillery to randomly bomb city. They don't even targeting at DNR militia positions.
Stopping these chaotic artillery - first step for peace

 Freakazoitt wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:

 Freakazoitt wrote:

Vaktathi wrote:K, one American fighting on the Ukrainian side, and old man who volunteered, and he's dead. AFAIK there's one fighting with the DNR.

Not just one. Some ex-backwaters group there.

Any source on that?

Even if they were there, they're mercenaries fighting for a paycheck, and there's very definitely such groups on both sides currently.

Google full of that information. Many of mercenaries were recognized.
http://globaleconomicanalysis.blogspot.ru/2015/01/email-from-us-special-forces-veteran.html

You'll excuse me if I don't count some random dude's personal website as a reliable source, especially relying on things like "oh man there's a $100 bill in the window...they must be foreign troops!", notwithstanding that the US $100 bill is the most widely used and counterfeited note in the world, with significant usage in pop culture as a symbol in and of itself...

Are there random volunteers from various nations on both sides? Absolutely. We've seen American volunteers on both sides. We've seen Scandanavians and others in the Azov battallion and others. We've see Serbians and Chechens fighting in the ranks of the Separatists. Are there large, organized groups of Western mercenaries fighting over there? Don't see any evidence of that.

 Vaktathi wrote:

And USA sent instructors to train UAF. It was published in US, Ukraine and Russian news.

Yes, there's about 200 US troops engaged in training exercises in Kiev, but they're not a combat group anywhere near the front lines, and their whereabouts are rather well known. They're not out there engaging in combat, they're not providing direct battle assistance, basically they're trying (who knows how successfully) to show the Ukrainians how to get their heads out of their asses. Nobody has been trying to hide that, but they're not a major military asset, aren't engaged in active fighting, and are hundreds of kilometers from the actual fighting. They're a token show of support so that the US can say it's doing something without actually really doing anything.

What's the point to train them how to kill civilians?

Are we going to pretend that the separatist factions aren't just as responsible for civilian casualties with similar reckless use of area weapons and artillery? Civilians die in war, that's a simple reality. When people decide to go to war, innocent people are going to get in the way. And it's ugly, and it's especially going to happen when rebellions are staged in cities, there's more people to get in the way.

But acting as if one side is actively intending to kill civilians, and that only one side is responsible for anything, or that the casualties are one-sided, is beyond absurd here.

If you're just going to resort to ridiculous appeals to emotion like this, and suggest that any US forces or anyone else there are there to train them to engage in this sort of act, you're never going to have a conversation, you're just parroting propaganda.

I would highly suggest watching Vice's series on the conflict. They're pretty good about getting both sides views, they cover when civilians are killed on both sides, they talk to both the Separatists and Ukrainians, as well as the people in the middle, and they call bs on both sides. They've got what is almost certainly the most complete, balanced, and in depth coverage of the conflict, and have been in there reporting since the since everything began in 2013.

https://news.vice.com/show/russian-roulette

Why not to concentrate on peaceful solution?

Part of that is shaping the Ukrainian government, including its military, into some semblance or working order because, quite frankly, they're inept.

 Freakazoitt wrote:

 Co'tor Shas wrote:
It might be nice if both sides did that.

You, mean, Donetsk made artillery bombardment on Donetsk? Absurd

Not so absurd when they're engaging Ukrainian forces with weapons that are either inherently inaccurate or lack the capability to use them accurately. It's not hard for an artillery unit to overshoot or undershoot its target by hundreds or even thousands of meters if the gunners aren't properly trained or just don't care and are shooting just to shoot (very common in battle). Never automatically attribute to malice what can be attributed to stupidity.

 Freakazoitt wrote:
Oh...

DNR militia just defending civilians from genocide. Unfortunately, UAF and Praviy Sector can use artillery to randomly bomb city. They don't even targeting at DNR militia positions.
Stopping these chaotic artillery - first step for peace

You're assuming these weapons are accurate enough to be properly targeted, that the crews are well trained and know what they're doing, and that the DNR aren't possibly fighting from civilian positions, none of which may be true. Again, never automatically attribute to malice what can be attributed to stupidity.

Lets also not forget that the Separatists shell Ukrainian positions and civilian dwellings on the other side of the line with just as much chaos. They're not innocent of anything themselves...

 Vaktathi wrote:

Are there random volunteers from various nations on both sides? Absolutely. We've seen American volunteers on both sides. We've seen Scandanavians and others in the Azov battallion and others. We've see Serbians and Chechens fighting in the ranks of the Separatists. Are there large, organized groups of Western mercenaries fighting over there? Don't see any evidence of that.

So why you don't call it "American invasion", "Sweden invasion", "Serbian invasion"?

 Vaktathi wrote:
Are we going to pretend that the separatist factions aren't just as responsible for civilian casualties with similar reckless use of area weapons and artillery? Civilians die in war, that's a simple reality. When people decide to go to war, innocent people are going to get in the way. And it's ugly, and it's especially going to happen when rebellions are staged in cities, there's more people to get in the way.

Because they have different goals. Ukraine radicals orders army to kill eastern ukrainians and destroy infrastructure. They call them "colorados", "colorados should be burned". They hate them and want thier death. So, they don't bother targeting at militia. Civilians for them good target too.
DNR militia use artillery only to silent these murdering bombardment and to blow up UAF positions. Militia crew expirienced enough to use cannon propertly and they know exactly what they shooting at.
For example And onother

 Freakazoitt wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:

Are there random volunteers from various nations on both sides? Absolutely. We've seen American volunteers on both sides. We've seen Scandanavians and others in the Azov battallion and others. We've see Serbians and Chechens fighting in the ranks of the Separatists. Are there large, organized groups of Western mercenaries fighting over there? Don't see any evidence of that.

So why you don't call it "American invasion", "Sweden invasion", "Serbian invasion"?

...Because the Swedes didn't literally invade the country like the Russians? o.O

Dammit, must resist making counter points to trolls.

In the mind of the propaganda spouters here's what the technology that the Russians are giving the separatists looks like.



Where on earth did he find that matching Soviet era camo bandanna from...?

 Freakazoitt wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:

Are there random volunteers from various nations on both sides? Absolutely. We've seen American volunteers on both sides. We've seen Scandanavians and others in the Azov battallion and others. We've see Serbians and Chechens fighting in the ranks of the Separatists. Are there large, organized groups of Western mercenaries fighting over there? Don't see any evidence of that.

So why you don't call it "American invasion", "Sweden invasion", "Serbian invasion"?

Because there's exceedingly few of them and there's no indication that they're really acting in any organized manner.

Because they have different goals. Ukraine radicals orders army to kill eastern ukrainians and destroy infrastructure. They call them "colorados", "colorados should be burned". They hate them and want thier death. So, they don't bother targeting at militia. Civilians for them good target too.
DNR militia use artillery only to silent these murdering bombardment and to blow up UAF positions. Militia crew expirienced enough to use cannon propertly and they know exactly what they shooting at.

Yes, because real war is so one-dimensional...

There are people on both sides that hate each other. If you honestly think the conflict is that one sided, that the Ukrainians just absolutely hate the people of the Donbas and want them all dead, and that the Separatists are all well trained heroes acting only in defense with excellent targeting abilities, you're delusional or you've drunk the cool-aid. Simple as. Most of them don't have any training at all, and especially not as trained artillery operators. Again, I would highly encourage you to watch Vice's coverage. They really are very good. They get in and talk with just about every party involved, including quite a bit with the DNR guys and they're not hesitant to show the results of either sides artillery attacks and the results of civilians, even DNR controlled areas. EDIT: in fact Vice's latest video (here) is simply talking with pro-russian fighters and checking out their living quarters and one of they guys they were talking with gets killed.

For example And onother

Yes, grainy cell phone video of random stuff with zero context and matrix animations in the background are excellent sources... they don't really tell us anything.

There are people on both sides that hate each other.

In the west they hate, because of 20 years of nazi brainwashing. They hate Russia, USSR, Stalin, tsar, bolsheviks - just like you
In the east they hate ukraine govermnent, because government is killing them, They just want to be alive.

Separatists are all well trained heroes acting only in defense with excellent targeting abilities, you're delusional or you've drunk the cool-aid.

I think, americans very like separatists, fighting against crazy opressors (Ghadaffi, Saddam, Al-Assad) and making for them heroic aura. But you supporting real terrorist. ISIL came from Iraq, "liberated from dictatorship". And Al-Assad is fighting against real terrorist, who beheading americans on camera. Why USA don't support him, instead of helping terrorists? because US want chaos all over the world? If so, reason of chaos in Ukraine in their "government", because USA support it. Do you know, that UAF soldiers being executed for refusing to kill civilians? It's not "innacurate fire", when cvilians being killed. It's because civilans - are target. That's the reason, why ceasing fire in only solution for now. But Ukraine "government" don't want to stop it.

Vice's coverage.

I started to watch this. First exression is videos are neutral, so might be interesting. But it's suspitious why it called "Russian roulette".

I haven't read any of this after the first couple pages and then ran into the last page. you have 1-2 people from Russia actively defending the Russian invasion of Ukraine. They do So by citing credible sources such as

Email From US Special Forces Veteran; 500 US Blackwater Mercenaries in Ukraine? US Backs Ukrainian Neo-Nazis. From some random Russian guys personal website.

You then have a plethora of people from several different countries citing credible sources and news outlets and none of which apparently sinks into the heads of the 1-2 people who actually believe this is a Separatist movement and not a russian invasion.

To all the Russian supporters (all 2 of you) why is it that the entirety of Europe thinks this is a Russian invasion? hell, why does the entire world think this is a Russian invasion? the only country that really believes this isn't a Russian invasion is Russia, and even then its a stretch, you have Soldiers in your military deserting every day to keep from being deployed to Ukraine.

because "entire world" = CIA controlled world

Russia refuses to obey them, That's why USA hate Russia.

 Freakazoitt wrote:
because "entire world" = CIA controlled world

Russia refuses to obey them, That's why USA hate Russia.

Your right, the CIA controls the entire world. And Russia the brave, heroic country they are have fought the entire world for years now and won.....yeah

 Freakazoitt wrote:
because "entire world" = CIA controlled world

Russia refuses to obey them, That's why USA hate Russia.

Well, to be honest, I don't hate Russia. I just don't like Putin's foreign policies where you invade other countries to 'liberate' them, and keep them 'liberated' at gun point.

You talk about the CIA controlling the world. While I can name a few South American nations that do bend a knee to the Company, I highly doubt that China, as an example, is so in bed with the CIA that they're telling people it's a Russian invasion.

No one is claiming that Russia is not involved at this point but Russians. And not even all of them, to read Russian newspapers interviewing wounded Russian soldiers.

 Freakazoitt wrote:

This one is also russian tank?

Originally maybe, but if it is currently, it's a museum piece. The Russians have not used that style reactive armor for their own use for a long time, and the 1K13 sight partially visible behind the guy's head makes it obsolete.


And, two hours? really? If they are, that's one fast team. First they have to steal all the parts, since Russia does not currently sell them (that I know of).

But let's say they have them all. You have to replace the engine and transmission, swap in and out the targeting system, and apply either Kontakt-5 or Relict. Whole thing though would take about a day and some fairly specialized tools, since Russia had to send them back to the factory to do it.

And while on the subject of the T-72BM...




At first glance, there's not much difference between it and more recent export T-72s, as the missing search light by the barrel might have just been torn away and Kontakt reactive armor are pretty universal at this point, save on newer BMs (T-72B3). The 125 mm 2A46 main gun is pretty common, though it 'might' be a 2A46M-5.

However, You may notice that little box on the turret between the smoke launchers and the open hatch. That's it's sights, and it's Sosna-U, and it's a signature of recent Russian tanks, or, at least, recently Russian tanks. This combined with the Kontakt-5 marks it as a T-72BM (or T-72B2 at least.) She's missing a sensor mast behind the Sosna-U, but it may have been removed or torn off.


This particular unit was captured in the Ukraine.

 BaronIveagh wrote:

Well, to be honest, I don't hate Russia. I just don't like Putin's foreign policies where you invade other countries to 'liberate' them, and keep them 'liberated' at gun point.

I don't hate USA too. But I don't like their imperialistic politics of bombing countries, assasinating leaders, turning it into chaos. Especially after disbanding of USSR. Instead of calming, USA continued to make wars. If Putin's rogeign policy is bad for you, them american foreign policy should be totally weird and evil for you.

 BaronIveagh wrote:
You talk about the CIA controlling the world. While I can name a few South American nations that do bend a knee to the Company, I highly doubt that China, as an example, is so in bed with the CIA that they're telling people it's a Russian invasion.

Therea few countries left, not controlled by CIA. Iran, North Korea, China, Russia, Belarus, Syria, probably Peru. All of these are considered by CIA as an "evil rogue states, to be eliminated". Very agressive position, making them to control entire Earth ball. Ukraine chaos is just enticement for Russia. CIA very much want that Russia attacked it. But Russia it isn't going on that bait. What will be next? CIA will order ukrainians to attack Russia? Or they will try to make maidan in Belarus, Kazakhstan? Or directly in Moskow?

 BaronIveagh wrote:

 Freakazoitt wrote:

This one is also russian tank?

Originally maybe, but if it is currently, it's a museum piece. The Russians have not used that style reactive armor for their own use for a long time, and the 1K13 sight partially visible behind the guy's head makes it obsolete.

Looks like it's Poroshenko himself. About tank - it's 72 with early reactive armour. in Ukraine there were ~800 T-72 of many modifications. They didn't used them before 2014, but if they use this kind of armour:

they probably used T-72 too.
At least 3 captured by DNR T-72 are confirmed.

 BaronIveagh wrote:

And, two hours? really? If they are, that's one fast team. First they have to steal all the parts, since Russia does not currently sell them (that I know of).

I don't know about wind detector, targeters and other systems, but replacing old style reactive armour with Kontakt-5 ones - not a difficult task and can be done in field conditions. Some equipment may be stolen from Russia.

 BaronIveagh wrote:

And while on the subject of the T-72BM...




At first glance, there's not much difference between it and more recent export T-72s, as the missing search light by the barrel might have just been torn away and Kontakt reactive armor are pretty universal at this point, save on newer BMs (T-72B3). The 125 mm 2A46 main gun is pretty common, though it 'might' be a 2A46M-5.

However, You may notice that little box on the turret between the smoke launchers and the open hatch. That's it's sights, and it's Sosna-U, and it's a signature of recent Russian tanks, or, at least, recently Russian tanks. This combined with the Kontakt-5 marks it as a T-72BM (or T-72B2 at least.) She's missing a sensor mast behind the Sosna-U, but it may have been removed or torn off.


This particular unit was captured in the Ukraine.

I want to see your picture, but it not opening in my browser

 Freakazoitt wrote:

Therea few countries left, not controlled by CIA. Iran, North Korea, China, Russia, Belarus, Syria, probably Peru. All of these are considered by CIA as an "evil rogue states, to be eliminated". Very agressive position, making them to control entire Earth ball. Ukraine chaos is just enticement for Russia. CIA very much want that Russia attacked it. But Russia it isn't going on that bait. What will be next? CIA will order Ukrainians to attack Russia? Or they will try to make maidan in Belarus, Kazakhstan? Or directly in Moskow?

My point being that all of them but Russia and Syria have admitted that, yes, Russia is in the Ukraine. Even China at that point voted in favor of a UN resolution against Russia for it. Hell, even Iron Captain admitted that there is Russian involvement in the Ukraine, though to what degree is debatable.

I admit that I have a hard time picturing the CIA secretly running anything for very long. I mean, really, they couldn't keep their secret prisons secret. Or keep China from stealing the names and identities of 20 million US government employees.

 Freakazoitt wrote:

I want to see your picture, but it not opening in my browser

I've noticed this with some Russian sites too, that things won't show/are not working correctly. Traced it back to something in Russia blocking parts of them, for some reason. It's weird though as it does not block the whole site, just parts of them.

Trying from photobucket.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Freakazoitt wrote:

I don't know about wind detector, targeters and other systems, but replacing old style reactive armour with Kontakt-5 ones - not a difficult task and can be done in field conditions. Some equipment may be stolen from Russia.

I'm again trying to picture escaping with enough stolen Russian hardware to make it worthwhile and not have the ensuing fight visible from orbit.

Again, you'd have ot steal it directly from Russia. This isn't something you can hit a depot for items being exported in meaningful amounts.

 Freakazoitt wrote:

Therea few countries left, not controlled by CIA. Iran, North Korea, China, Russia, Belarus, Syria, probably Peru. All of these are considered by CIA as an "evil rogue states, to be eliminated". Very agressive position, making them to control entire Earth ball. Ukraine chaos is just enticement for Russia. CIA very much want that Russia attacked it. But Russia it isn't going on that bait. What will be next? CIA will order ukrainians to attack Russia? Or they will try to make maidan in Belarus, Kazakhstan? Or directly in Moskow?

Bwahahahahahaha...

This is priceless if you actually believe that.

 Grey Templar wrote:

 Freakazoitt wrote:

Therea few countries left, not controlled by CIA. Iran, North Korea, China, Russia, Belarus, Syria, probably Peru. All of these are considered by CIA as an "evil rogue states, to be eliminated". Very agressive position, making them to control entire Earth ball. Ukraine chaos is just enticement for Russia. CIA very much want that Russia attacked it. But Russia it isn't going on that bait. What will be next? CIA will order ukrainians to attack Russia? Or they will try to make maidan in Belarus, Kazakhstan? Or directly in Moskow?

Bwahahahahahaha...

This is priceless if you actually believe that.

Come on man we all know its CIA>Reptilians>Grey men>Illuminati>Free masons running the world.

 Ustrello wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:

 Freakazoitt wrote:

Therea few countries left, not controlled by CIA. Iran, North Korea, China, Russia, Belarus, Syria, probably Peru. All of these are considered by CIA as an "evil rogue states, to be eliminated". Very agressive position, making them to control entire Earth ball. Ukraine chaos is just enticement for Russia. CIA very much want that Russia attacked it. But Russia it isn't going on that bait. What will be next? CIA will order ukrainians to attack Russia? Or they will try to make maidan in Belarus, Kazakhstan? Or directly in Moskow?

Bwahahahahahaha...

This is priceless if you actually believe that.

Come on man we all know its CIA>Reptilians>Grey men>Illuminati>Free masons running the world.

You forgot Jews.

 Tyran wrote:

 Ustrello wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:

 Freakazoitt wrote:

Therea few countries left, not controlled by CIA. Iran, North Korea, China, Russia, Belarus, Syria, probably Peru. All of these are considered by CIA as an "evil rogue states, to be eliminated". Very agressive position, making them to control entire Earth ball. Ukraine chaos is just enticement for Russia. CIA very much want that Russia attacked it. But Russia it isn't going on that bait. What will be next? CIA will order ukrainians to attack Russia? Or they will try to make maidan in Belarus, Kazakhstan? Or directly in Moskow?

Bwahahahahahaha...

This is priceless if you actually believe that.

Come on man we all know its CIA>Reptilians>Grey men>Illuminati>Free masons running the world.

You forgot Jews.

Thats just how tricksy the Jews are, they dont even make the list.

 Freakazoitt wrote:

There are people on both sides that hate each other.

In the west they hate, because of 20 years of nazi brainwashing.

Methinks you're vastly overestimating the effect any "Nazi's" have in Ukraine. There was never any murmerings of "Nazi's" until a year and a half ago when they all magically appeared.

Lets also not forget that Russia has one of the largest neo-nazi populations in the world. Hell, every nation in the world has its share of ultranationalist crazies. Assuming that they're in major power and leading national discourse however in Ukraine or anywhere else is a mistake. Do they have a voice? Certainly. Is that unique to Ukraine? No. Are they in control of the Ukrainian government? Hardly.

They hate Russia, USSR, Stalin, tsar, bolsheviks - just like you

Who said I hate Russia? I don't. I'm a fan of many Russians, like Leonid Kantorovich, Brusilov, Gagarin, Kalashnikov, etc. I just happen to think the Russian government is currently doing some rather stupid things. They're not the only ones, they just happen to be the subject of this thread.

I don't see why I'd have anything big beef with the Tsar. He's been dead for a century, and when he was in power, he was an ally of the US, France, and the UK.

But, sure, I can't say I'm a fan of Stalin, any more than I'm a fan of Pol Pot, Hitler, Mao, Saddam Hussein, or any other similar dictator. Or certain US presidents for that matter

In the east they hate ukraine govermnent, because government is killing them, They just want to be alive.

After they instigated an armed rebellion, professing a desire to join a state that had just seized another part of Ukraine (Crimea).

I think, americans very like separatists, fighting against crazy opressors (Ghadaffi, Saddam, Al-Assad) and making for them heroic aura. But you supporting real terrorist. ISIL came from Iraq, "liberated from dictatorship". And Al-Assad is fighting against real terrorist, who beheading americans on camera. Why USA don't support him, instead of helping terrorists? because US want chaos all over the world? If so, reason of chaos in Ukraine in their "government", because USA support it.

Yes the US has done some absolutely stupid things. We're very good at doing stupid things sometimes. Often times the US government does things without any concept of the consequences or any long term plan. Syria is an absolute disaster and US policy has undoubtedly been disastrous (though Assad isn't much better than anyone else there, he just doesn't release videos on the internet of his forces killing prisoners as opposed to the ISIL guys). As I said before though, attributing that to raw malice or some sort of desire to see chaos in the world, as opposed to stupidity, is a mistake. That said, those are topics for another thread.

Even the US however, with well trained troops and excellent targeting equipment and hundreds of times the funding of either Ukraine or the DNR rebels, has had issues with munitions not going where intended or hitting targets that were not what what we thought they were.

One must also remember that the groups fighting against Ukraine aren't an organized whole, they're a collection of various groups that don't all work together. Some are very well armed and organized, others are just groups of dudes that obtained guns and do their own thing with the orange ribbon on their shirt. The guys grabbing old T-34's off of monuments are not the same guys who took Debaltseve.

Do you know, that UAF soldiers being executed for refusing to kill civilians?

Do you have a source on that? I haven't seen anything on Ukrainian soldiers being executed by their own side for *anything*.

It's not "innacurate fire", when cvilians being killed. It's because civilans - are target. That's the reason, why ceasing fire in only solution for now. But Ukraine "government" don't want to stop it.

It's difficult to believe that this conflict continues simply because the Ukrainian government wants to kill the people of the Donbas. They can't find their ass with both hands, they're so divided internally and riddled with corruption that they barely function, yet they are united enough to continue a costly war they obviously can't prosecute properly nor afford the cost of, just because they want to kill the people of the Donbas that bad?

If they had that sort of force of will, unity of command, and capability, things would likely be very different.

I started to watch this. First exression is videos are neutral, so might be interesting. But it's suspitious why it called "Russian roulette".

It's a double reference to the decidedly lethal game "Russian Roulette", where one never knows the consequences of a trigger pull, and the fact that there's Russians involved (even if they're not Russian troops, the DNR rebels and the like all claim to be Russsian).

 Freakazoitt wrote:
because "entire world" = CIA controlled world

Russia refuses to obey them, That's why USA hate Russia.

Methinks you're attributing a magical power to the CIA that doesn't exist. The CIA can't keep a secret for squat, as others have already noted, and have botched more operations than most people can count.

If the CIA had the sort of power you attribute to it, Russia refusing to "obey" them would be of little consequence, and in fact if they had that sort of power, Russia likely wouldn't know who not to obey

 Freakazoitt wrote:

Therea few countries left, not controlled by CIA. Iran, North Korea, China, Russia, Belarus, Syria, probably Peru.

As someone who really doesn't like the CIA and would like to see them just go away (mostly because they absolutely suck at what they do... I mean most of the 20th century is a giant testament to the CIA's complete and utter failure to actually achieve results worth their budget and cost of life), gotta say; I want what you're smoking.

What is funny is if you read up on the Venona project and what the Russians let out of their archives before they realized what was getting out and re-shut them, you realize just how much the KGB and their ilk had infiltrated the western countries and set up into areas where the influence is still felt. And even with the hard proof from what has been declassified and what came out of their own archives, folks like Freakazoitt will tell us it never happened and the CIA runs the world.

Pretty amazing actually.

I actually feel bad for folks like that who cannot grasp reality or can but choose to ignore it and stay in their comfort zone.

Well to be fair, the CIA probably did a lot of the same things during the Cold War, planting agents all over the Soviet Bloc.

But only a fool would legitimately believe either organization actually 'controlled' the world. The KGB and CIA are equally incompetent. Hell the CIA may even be more incompetent. The KGB actually managed to prop up a couple failing governments for more than a decade

Well, I suspect KGB infiltrations of, for example, unions and higher education has had a longer effect on us than anything the CIA did in Russia. They purposely played a long game, well beyond what we were doing.

 CptJake wrote:
Well, I suspect KGB infiltrations of, for example, unions and higher education has had a longer effect on us than anything the CIA did in Russia. They purposely played a long game, well beyond what we were doing.

This applies to some Western politicians too. Off the top of my head, Harriet Harman (UK) was a member of CND (Campaign for Nuclear Disarmament), which is/was accused of links to communism and the KGB.

 CptJake wrote:
Well, I suspect KGB infiltrations of, for example, unions and higher education has had a longer effect on us than anything the CIA did in Russia. They purposely played a long game, well beyond what we were doing.

The CIAs ongoing impact is in South America and South East Asia.

To this day I wonder about that jailbreak in Thailand that was funded by the Nugan Hand Bank. I think it was about getting an 'in' with a large scale weapons operation. The company likes to infiltrate large criminal operations. Drugs guns and money is practically a motto.

No, what's going on in the Ukraine isn't their style. It's very KGB though. Start a violent insurrection someplace and supply it with all the guns they can do? Sounds like half their ops in South America.

I'm getting fed up of reading that anti-Russian attitudes are due to 'nazi propaganda', especially coming from people not even born until after the collapse of the Soviet Union so have a world view based on what is spooned to them by the Russian state in what passes for education and media. It would be nice to have a serious thread about Ukraine without crackpot claims about the CIA controlling the world with only Russia bravely standing up to them.

Went to the Stazi museum in Berlin yesterday and it was quite shocking the scale of the spying and nasty methods used to keep the population in line. Clearly the form of governing the Soviet Union approved of and consequently no wonder that returning under control by Russia is not popular with many Eastern European countries.