Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:
No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
Times and dates in your local timezone.
Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.
If you are already a member then feel free to login now.
2012/05/03 13:52:51
Subject: Tremorcrons: ratio of Tremor-teks vs troops
So I'm trying to build a viable Tremorcron list, but I'm not sure what would be the most effective way to split up the Harbingers of Transmogrification with my troops.
The way I see it, I've got two options:
- 8 Tremor-teks in four troop units (2 attached per unit) - 6 Tremor-teks in six troop units (1 attached per unit)
*both options take into consideration that the army will already be taking the requisite 2 Lance-teks with Solar Pulses.
Pro for the 8 by 4 route is more chance of hitting what I'm shooting at. Con is less targets I'll be able to spread my shots between. The 6 by 6 way grants me a couple more targets I can acquire, but less chance of necessarily hitting each one (which might not be too bad, as if I miss, there's a good chance one of the other 5 units will be in range to try again).
Also, what troops would you recommend sticking them with? I have a feeling if I go for the 6 Tremor-tek way, I'd probably want them in basic 5 man Warrior fire teams so I could get maximum coverage for minimum points (sticking the Lance-teks with a more resilient 7-8x Immortal team. Giving one of the Lance-teks Gaze of Flame REALLY makes that a solid objective holding squad).
If I go the 8 teks vs 4 units route, what would it be best to pair 2 Tremor-teks up in? Immortals? Or maybe Warriors in gunboat Arks?
Hmmm....
Automatically Appended Next Post: bump.
(oh come on, 20 views and no one has any suggestions?)
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2012/05/03 15:07:32
2012/05/03 15:16:20
Subject: Tremorcrons: ratio of Tremor-teks vs troops
If you posted two complete lists it would help. It is really hard to know what to recommend if we don't know what is supporting it. I have run a couple tremorspam armies and they have done well, but without the proper fire support... you are going to get eaten up. What do you have so far?
"What we do in life, echoes in eternity" - Maximus Meridius
Check out Veterans of the Long War Podcast -
https://www.facebook.com/VeteransOfTheLongWar
2012/05/03 15:30:44
Subject: Tremorcrons: ratio of Tremor-teks vs troops
Basic Idea: slow things down so the Wraiths & Scarabs can slam into them. Writhing Worldscape will see the majority of the opponents units keeping out of terrain, and there by in sight of the Doomsday Arks. (... though, I'm not sure about those two Immortal squads.)
Here's a 2000 point version using option 2- __________________________________ 2000 Tremorcrons HQ [650] Overlord (scythe, Barge (Gauss Cannon)) = 180 Overlord (scythe, Barge (Gauss Cannon)) = 180 6 Harbingers of Transmogrification = 180 2 Harbingers of Destruction (2x Pulse) = 110
I wrote quite a bit about tremor crons, under the 'tremor crons viable' thread. Basicly, my conclusions for a tremor list being 'optimized' require fundamentally changing your entire list, as you are stealing from your list's main theme to side in some, but not all, of what makes tremor great.
If you drop the ctan, the 6 tremors, and upgrade the 30 warriors to immortals you still have 300 points. That is 8 more destro teks, or 6 more destro teks and 2 more whip wraiths, or some other combo of damage dealing crons. Even overlord upgrades would be good.
As it stands, you were investing 390 points in weak troops with no mobility to shoot, 180 points in tremors, and 240 points in a slow assault unit, all to maybe slow down some infantry or vehicle.
As I mentioned in the prior thread, tremor works with orikan to start on turn 1, and with spyders to make use of slowing the enemy by growing an unkillable brick while the enemy is mired. Since you only get one overlord with orikan, stormlord is the obvious choice for second character, and going melee heavy with spyders/scarabs/wraiths means you have almost no nightfight issues on your side.
2012/05/06 04:50:37
Subject: Re:Tremorcrons: ratio of Tremor-teks vs troops
Basically anyone who's working on a C'Tan WW list should go read that Tremorcron thread.
<sigh> If I had enough balls, Devian, I'd adopt some of the mechanics myself. I need something else and I think the winning combo is C'TanWW / Imotekh sans Orikan, using the same spyder/scarab growth but letting the opponent close if he chooses to, concentrating on winning the defensive fight. Where "quake" on searchlighting vehicles would be key.
Refresh my memory - Orikan's primary benefit is prohibiting all enemy movement on turn one, and that's it, correct?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/05/06 04:51:07
2012/05/06 06:20:38
Subject: Re:Tremorcrons: ratio of Tremor-teks vs troops
DevianID wrote:Basicly, my conclusions for a tremor list being 'optimized' require fundamentally changing your entire list
[...]drop the ctan, the 6 tremors[...]
... so wait, drop the things that makes TremorCrons "Tremor"Crons?
I agree about the Imotekh/Scarab-Farm/Wraiths/Immortals-over-Warriors suggestions and tactics, but... I thought the whole point of TremorCrons was to get as many things mired in Writhing Worldscape shenanigans as possible? *goes back to read the "TremorCron viable" thread*
Randall Turner wrote:Refresh my memory - Orikan's primary benefit is prohibiting all enemy movement on turn one, and that's it, correct?
As far as can be told, that is correct. Pretty useless if your opponent is playing a mostly-reserves list. (his reserve rerolls are alright, but his Super Sayian ability is kind of stupid)
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2012/05/06 06:28:52
2012/05/06 16:22:26
Subject: Re:Tremorcrons: ratio of Tremor-teks vs troops
I think what he meant re: dropping Tremor stuff was that you should either go big or stay home.
Re: Orikan, I want the enemy on the board so's they eat flaming justice - the key point for Tremorcrons is growth, the key point for my own philosophy is statistical attrition over time. Synergistic, but slightly different. (Very slightly, we both grow and attrit.)
I don't want to hijack this thread, but I've been angsting over how to handle some elements that the Tremorcron pattern has answers for.
2012/05/06 18:17:46
Subject: Tremorcrons: ratio of Tremor-teks vs troops
Orikan is a secondary combat HQ, that combined with Imotek and especially with 'super sayian' going makes for a decent combat unit to beat on non-combat stuff. He also lets you reroll all your reserves that are unsuccessful for one turn, which is useful on spearhead missions where your opponent leaves a 19-24 inch path to a juicy target from your board edge.
The difficult terrain first turn of course is the best bit, with DoW missions benefiting the most.
I agree that Orikan makes your opponent more likely to reserve, which Immotek also does. That said, that is what you want IMHO, as if you are growing scarabs and are also a mostly slow foot list, your opponent reserving combined with your huge charge range is fantastic. Plus, 1 chrono can benefit both immotek and orikan's beginning of turn rolls depending on who fails it and which you need more.
Randall got it right when he said I like tremor to go big or go home. In your list, you devoted hundreds of points to tremor, but you left behind orikan (who provides a much larger bonus to tremor than even 10 tremor teks do), and your remaining units take no maneuver advantage of the reduced movement. Warriors have only a 12 inch range on the move, meaning even with tremor you are in assault range of your opponent. It would be a little different with some seismic crucibles on 2 close range warrior squads with the rest being immortals, so you would be guarenteed safety at 11.5 inches away if you are a fantastic judge of distance.
Basicly, by swapping out the tremor in your dual surfboard list, you gain 8 more s8 long range shots PLUS the very good immortal upgrade, and you lose a 33% chance to immobilize a vehicle via tremor.
2012/05/07 03:08:52
Subject: Tremorcrons: ratio of Tremor-teks vs troops
DevianID wrote:Basicly, by swapping out the tremor in your dual surfboard list, you gain 8 more s8 long range shots PLUS the very good immortal upgrade, and you lose a 33% chance to immobilize a vehicle via tremor.
Yes, but if I replace all my Tremor-teks with Lance-teks, then it would cease to be a Tremor list and just become my typical Broverlords list (dual Barge Overlords with double Lance-teks in MSU).
Playing that army, while usually effective... gets stale after a while.
Hence I wanted to try taking a stab at a TremorCrons build, but I still can't quite figure it out (that "Tremor-crons, Viable?" thread is REALLY long... still going).
So Imotekh, Orikan, a Chrono-tek, and four Tremor-teks? No Writhing Worldscape C'tan? MSU Immortals? Scarabs+Spyders?
...
you know what, can I just ask for someone to post a list, so I can see what a typical viable TremorCron build looks like?
2012/05/07 05:46:43
Subject: Re:Tremorcrons: ratio of Tremor-teks vs troops
Then we have Eric Hoeger with Wraithwing at St. Valentine's Day Massacre:
Overlord: Warscythe, Command Barge 180
Overlord: Warscythe, Command Barge 180
Royal Court: Harbinger of Destruction with Solar Pulse, Harbinger of Destruction, Harbinger of Despair with Veil of Darkness 150
Royal Court: Harbinger of Destruction with Solar Pulse, Harbinger of Destruction, 90
7 Immortals: Tesla Carbines 119
5 Immortals: Tesla Carbines 85
5 Immortals: Tesla Carbines 85
5 Immortals: Tesla Carbines 85
6 Wraiths: 3xWhip Coil, 1xParticle Caster 245
6 Wraiths: 3xWhip Coil, 1xParticle Caster 245
5 Wraiths: 3xWhip Coil 205
Annihilation Barge: Telsa Cannon 90
Annihilation Barge: Tesla Cannon 90
And most recently, we have Norbu at the Indy Open with Tremorcrons!!!
Orikan
Imotekh
2 x tremor crypteks
1 x Chronomotron tek
1 combat lord w/ orb
7 lychguard w/ sheilds
1 Ctan (wrything worldscape, lord of fire)
5 x warriors
5 x warriors
5 x Immortals
5 scarabs
4 scarabs
5 wraiths (coils, pistol)
3 spyders
3 spyders
Good job to all, and way to represent!
I think there's one or 2 others from before that including jy2s maximum threat overload list but i forget what the exact list was offhand, you can probably search for it.
2012/05/07 06:06:24
Subject: Re:Tremorcrons: ratio of Tremor-teks vs troops
Then we have Eric Hoeger with Wraithwing at St. Valentine's Day Massacre:
Overlord: Warscythe, Command Barge 180
Overlord: Warscythe, Command Barge 180
Royal Court: Harbinger of Destruction with Solar Pulse, Harbinger of Destruction, Harbinger of Despair with Veil of Darkness 150
Royal Court: Harbinger of Destruction with Solar Pulse, Harbinger of Destruction, 90
7 Immortals: Tesla Carbines 119
5 Immortals: Tesla Carbines 85
5 Immortals: Tesla Carbines 85
5 Immortals: Tesla Carbines 85
6 Wraiths: 3xWhip Coil, 1xParticle Caster 245
6 Wraiths: 3xWhip Coil, 1xParticle Caster 245
5 Wraiths: 3xWhip Coil 205
Annihilation Barge: Telsa Cannon 90
Annihilation Barge: Tesla Cannon 90
And most recently, we have Norbu at the Indy Open with Tremorcrons!!!
Orikan
Imotekh
2 x tremor crypteks
1 x Chronomotron tek
1 combat lord w/ orb
7 lychguard w/ sheilds
1 Ctan (wrything worldscape, lord of fire)
5 x warriors
5 x warriors
5 x Immortals
5 scarabs
4 scarabs
5 wraiths (coils, pistol)
3 spyders
3 spyders
Good job to all, and way to represent!
I think there's one or 2 others from before that including jy2s maximum threat overload list but i forget what the exact list was offhand, you can probably search for it.
Ah, yes, much oblidged, sir.
(I knew I had seen that post of jy2's somewhere before, but I couldn't recall where).
I still find it amazing that that Tremor-Cron list only has 2 Trmor-teks in it...
*shrug*
Well, I'll see if I can play with the numbers a bit and come up with something I like.
Thanks for the copypasta sauce.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Taking some of the comments into consideration, I came up with this:
Now, I've taken various elements that I thought worked well together (W.W.C'tan+Orikan+Tremorstaves, Stalkers+Tesla Carbines, Phaeron+lots of Warriors, etc) and combined them into the one army... but I'm worried maybe I'm trying to do too many things at once.
Maybe I'll post it on the Army Lists section to let people there rip it apart, too...
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/05/07 08:55:05
2012/05/07 16:33:35
Subject: Re:Tremorcrons: ratio of Tremor-teks vs troops
Because tremorcrons is a "trick" (though a very good one) with a certain degree of unpredictability. You don't want to live or die by tricks. It may give you spectacular results at times, but over the long haul (say, a 5-6 game GT), you will likely encounter situations or armies that are not affected as much by your tremorcrons. Your list has got to be able to function without them.
That's why if you've noticed Norbu's GT winning crons, he's only got 2 tremor-teks. I myself will not put more than 3 tremor-teks in my list. I don't even use Orikan (his 1st turn shenanigans is just too easy to counter unless you're playing Dawn of War). Rather, tremorcrons just play a small but vital portion in my list (WW C'tan + 2-3 tremor-teks). Tremorcrons will annoy your opponent as it hampers their mobility, but it is the rest of your army that will win you the game.
This is how I would incoporate Tremorcrons into my 2K wraithwing list:
Nothing fancy. It's basically my MTO wraithwing list, but I've swapped out the doom scythes and overlord upgrades for annihilation barges and the tremorcrons. The list is fully functional even without the tremor element.
Yeah, I could see the basic Tremor element (WW C'tan + 2-3 Tremor-teks) would cost about 350 odd points, depending on what secondary powers you take for your C'tan. Being the case, it was just down to figuring out what I wanted to do with the 1650-ish points left to fill.
Seems like the three most obvious builds to compliment the Tremor-Cron element are Scarab-Farm, Wraith-Wing, and to a lesser degree Twin-linked Tesla-spam.
Norbu's Scarabs were obviously effective, so I went with Tesla for my second draft to see if it would work.
But as I can see from the list you posted, Wraith would easily work out as well (probably even better, too).
I do think I'm going to tinker around with this Twin-linked Tesla variation some more, though. I have to agree, Orikan just doesn't feel like a good idea, and with Stalkers in the army, I'd be nuts not to include Lance-teks... so I think Imotekh can come out, too.
Back to the drawing table, I guess.
*calculates*
2012/05/07 17:55:36
Subject: Re:Tremorcrons: ratio of Tremor-teks vs troops
I think you need to establish your army philosophy first.
Jy2 has an offensive CC-centric philosophy. Very modest growth potential, no indirect attrition, tons of combat power. He's going to get up in someone's business quickly. No reason for him to take more than one Solar Pulse b/c he's going to be at knife-fight range by turn 2 if he wants to be, and no reason to try to slow the opponent's advance as a whole because he wants to engage. He's using the tremorteks tactically, to "freeze" a component of the enemy's list and tactically attrit it if it tries to move, then defeat the rest of the list in detail. The list works together pretty well, even the C'Tan's second ability makes sense for a list that's spending most of the battle in melta range.
DevianID's philosophy is to extend the battle. He's defensive CC-centric, and the longer he can put off the main fight the better off he is. He's more likely to use the tremorteks as part of an overall plan to slow the enemy's advance and give the scarabs time to spawn and the lightning time to thin things out. He'll have trouble using the tremorteks on anything but searchlighting units, though. That's a big problem, I think. (One I'm wrestling with trying to include tremorteks in my list.) Same basic problem as including Stalkers with Imotekh - our firepower stuff actually suffers more than the (presumably searchlight equipped) enemy's.
2012/05/07 19:02:49
Subject: Re:Tremorcrons: ratio of Tremor-teks vs troops
10x Interceptors - 2x Psycannon, Psybolt, Hammer, Warding Stave
2x Psyfleman Dreads
Basically, this was a test game for my upcoming Wraith Tactica. It basically pits my wraithwing against 3 of their greatest weaknesses - volume-of-fire, GK Nemesis Force weapons and 2+ paladins.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/05/07 19:03:34
Playing a Writhing Worldscape list for a while now, in various incarnations, I've found that I do just fine with only two Harbingers of Transmogrification (though sometimes find myself wishing I had three). 8 is way overdoing it. I would use 4 at the very most.
Though if it matters, I do tend to use Orikan as well.
.....Bay Area Open GT 2013 - Best Tyranids 
.....LVO GT 2014 Team Tournament - Best Generals