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Hi guys,

Call me judgemental (indeed, I've never even LOOKED at a Mantic ruleset), but are the Mantic systems just window-dressing to legitimise (and possibly make a quick buck) off of cloning GW miniatures?

I am not saying that they are the same, or identical... but at the end of the day new mantic minis seem to be designed with their primary purpose being to replace something GW already makes. In short, the ruleset is not leading development; there're no ambitions to actually create something altogether separate in concept or aesthetics.

But this is simply what I conclude when I look through a Mantic Pamphlet and go 'Marauders? Pfft... you mean Orks right?'. 'Choppa' = 'Ax' etc.

Likewise the Undead army; led by Vampires... interesting...

Thoughts?

I'd say you are doing yourself a disservice by viewing Mantic stuff as pure GW analogues. Obviously, a large part of the design philosophy is how much crossover there is between GW and Mantic stuff - GW is the elephant in the room, there is no denying that and Mantic would be stupid not to take advantage of that and sell their stuff to people wanting cheap GW alternatives, but then again, the same is true of every independent mini manufacturer really. AT least Mantic have taken the steps of designing and producing their own rules set which is further than most companies go. Clearly, it isn't going to rival Fantasy/40K any time soon but it's a start. The same was probably said of Warmachine when it first arrived but now it is outselling Fantasy in the States, so I'm told.

From what I have read and seen, Kings of War is considered to be a fine game in it's own right; a very cut down and streamlined set of rules that make for a very fun game. As with anything, you should give it a go - the rules are free so there's no penalty to trying.

If anyone brought it to my gaming group, I wouldn't say no.. since I presume that my Undead army could easily play both systems.

At least have a LOOK at the rules before making assumptions Henners

I haven't played a game of KoW yet, (which really isn't saying much, I haven't had time to play anything beyond Brushfire demos for the last couple of years) But I am building an army for it with the intent of playing.

Reading through it makes it look like a much better system then Fantasy.

I've played KoW and it is a fun game, a lot quicker and faster flowing than fantasy.

That said I enjoy playing both WHFB and KoW, both have their good points and bad points, and both are really good fun (which for me is the most important thing)

You could also try Dwarf Kings Hold. Now that is a good game.

Henners91 wrote:If anyone brought it to my gaming group, I wouldn't say no.. since I presume that my Undead army could easily play both systems.

Exactly. Most companies make models without a ruleset.

Mantic made a ruleset without models. Then filled in the gaps.

Kudos to them for a very good idea. It used to be that GW miniature prices were the main source of customer ire. Now, however, you can't play the game without having to repeatedly buy rules support. Mantic rules are free. They have created a free-standing system, within which you can switch GW rules or minis for a Mantic equivalent.

In addition, lots of the ideas they use represent broader fantasy concepts - it's not that Mantic are copying GW with hordes of stoical dwarves in mithril type armour. It's that they're both borrowing from Tolkien/D&D and the whole fantasy "meme".

Mantic's rules (I've read, but not played) have some similarity to GW, but this is to be expected. The designer used to work for GW, so the "flavour" of the systems may be similar. Nevertheless, I think they stand alone very well. They are designed to be fast and slick, allowing the fun of fielding a massive army, yet keeping the rules so streamlined that they can be read in a few pages.

If I was starting out in this hobby, I'd pick Mantic.

Really, while Mantic models can be used for GW games, GW models can also be used for Mantic games, which is a key point I think a lot of people miss. It's especially nice given how simple the rulesets are and how easy it is to make relatively-balanced fan armies, and I appreciate how the first of tehir two army lists officially released for Warpath was for the Forgefather, making Squat minis (if they still exist) useful again.

I unfortunately play WP far more than KoW, but I can say that both are very well balanced (although not perfectly so), and short of a couple obvious issues (Moving all your models in Warpath is usually 1/2 of your turn, since it lacks KoW's movement trays and not many people have their 40K minis on movement trays), they are very good systems.

Plus they're showing a wonderful trend of making fully supported models and products for ignored-yet-popular GW products like the Squats or Space Hulk. I'd say it's probably only a matter of time before they release not-Epic and not-Warmaster lines as well to appeal to those disabused fans.

I'd check out the last episode of Podhammer - the guys cover Kings of War pretty well, and as one of the premier Fantasy podcasts, they essentially raved about it.

I'm making an Orc/Goblin army with the intention of using it for both WFB and KoW. I haven't played the latter yet, but saw a game in progress and it looks rather neat. Certainly, a lot faster to play than WFB.

For me the rules are the main appeal of Mantic's offerings.

Kings of War is quick to play, lightweight and well-written... so you don't get stupid debates about how page 154, paragraph 7 sentence 6 of the warhammer 8th edition rules brick was intended to be read. Just take one look at the rules debates about GW books on here and tell me that they're anything other than a total ball-ache.

The KoW army lists are flexible, and well-balanced both internally and against each other. Very hard to write a "cheese list" for KoW, the game is won on the tabletop during the game, not with a pen and paper before the game starts as so often happens with GW games.

KoW has been playtested for 2 years with a lot of community input, especially from tournament players and have undergone a lot of revisions to improve them.

Next month they're bringing out a hardback rulebook with the updated core rules, background, artwork, expanded rules for campaigns and seige games and 8 army lists for a mere £20... or you can download it as a free .pdf.


If Mantic wanted rulesets just for the reasons you mention, then why are they putting so much effort into them?

The amount of work and support and updates that have gone into them is far greater than GW bothers with - it simply writes a buggered-up codex then doesn't bother to fix it for another 6 years until the new one comes out, despite having spare cash to spend on it that is several orders of magnitude higher than what Mantic has... it just isn't seen as important within the GW corporate environment, so it doesn't happen.

Mantic taking their rules seriously and creating a solid strategic tournament game is one of the main reasons why they rock. They are an extremely gamer-friendly company.

I am very curious to give the game a go, but considering in my current situation I don't even get to play more common games like Warhams, it seems unlikely.

Here's another advantage of the ruleset: because the units are element-based, and not individually based, it's much easier to slide the size scale back and forth.

If I ever get the chance, I'll probably try out KoW using Pendraken 10mm minis, and turn all the inches into centimeters. Since Pendraken packs come at $2 apiece on the warstore for 10 figures, a Horde-sized unit would cost $10!

^ If you're going down that route, you could even go for 6mm for 50% cheaper models.

Microworld have a really nice range: http://www.microworldgames.com/collections/6mm-fantasy

Or, if you're dead-set on 10mm, GW's "battle of five armies" game is a great buy since it gets you a ton of plastic 10mm for elves, dwarves, men and goblins. Copplestone have some nice 10mm stuff too.

It's something I've considered, but only as a way of getting a game in on a small playing surface.

I have two friends, one with skavens and the other with High Elves and they dont want to play Kings of War with me. They want to play the slow and more complicated WHF.

All I can say is that I had my boy, 8 years old at the time, beating me with an undead army and enjoying himself inside of twenty minutes.
I got to look at the game a while ago, and played using paper miniature armies. You could even skip miniatures altogether and just use unit base sized counters.

Very fast and easy game with lots of ways to mess up your tactics and get pounded.

I know nothing about WHFB, so I cannot comment, but the models I've seen looked noce.

WHF have nice new models, but the rules is the problem. We are having problems with rules lawyers in 40k and thats the reason I want to play KOW 3rd edition.

I would strongly suggest you give KoW rules a try, I've actually found it significantly more fun than WHF, simply because it's so much faster and streamlined. With a game that's all about moving massive formations of units, instead of individual squads, streamlined is something you really want. It's the little things like not having to switch dice during your turn, not having to remove models etc that make a huge difference.

The beauty of KoW is that it keeps the tactics without needing the extra complexity, since its more of a game about maneuvering and deciding how to focus fire, instead of a more paper scissors stones, or crazy rules combos like 40k. It does not need the complicated unit specific rules etc, it's too abstract for that(we are talking 100-200 minis instead of 40-50). I do kinda miss the magic system of WHF a bit, and the focus on big creatures, but with the recent Kickstarter KoW has gotten a LOT of more out there minis.

My particular favorite element in KoW is how well heroes are integrated. They are not really used as a unit buffing attachment here, but as a far more maneuverable unit that buffs the army around him, and then swoops forward to flank and destroy targets of opportunity. Their strength is not really their stats or killyness, or even the buffs... it's that they are small enough to slip between the battle lines, and they don't care about formations, so they can easily sneak into someone's flank. They are a big part of the game without being the focus, but rather another tool.

Interestingly enough, I actually found I did not like the warpath rules for the opposite reason, though I have not really played a serious game of warpath yet. I find that I WANT the complexity in a more skirmish game like 40k since it's less about managing formations and more about having the right unit for the job. Different strokes altogether.

That is a problem with Warpath, Mantic has to decide if the game is skirmish or massive combat.

infinite_array wrote:I'd check out the last episode of Podhammer - the guys cover Kings of War pretty well, and as one of the premier Fantasy podcasts, they essentially raved about it.

Heh. My local games group includes Mr Fury from that podcast - himself a big fan of both warpath and KoW and recently a convert to Infinity as well.
I played Warpath with my Guard army as stand-ins for the Corporation forces against a mate's Marauders and the game was as fun as 40k used to be.


With regards to podhammer, they know their fans are somewhat steamed about the lack of output from them since Adepticon last year. Jeff said he'll get back to podhammer when he gets his gaming mojo back. With house moves, small children and a bunch of other issues getting in the way of that, it could be a long wait. Since he isn't "feeling" the gaming thing at the moment, any content he did would seem hollow and fake (and he doesn't do "fake".)

A belated reply to the OP,
I use GW figs to play Warpath. I prefer the simplicity of rules, speed of play, and -if I am completely honest- the cost. I don't argue with you that it seems like a much streamlined analogue to 40k. Rather, that's what I like about it. It's a chance to get my 40k armies on the table for big battles that are easy to play and fast to conclude.

Capt. Camping wrote:That is a problem with Warpath, Mantic has to decide if the game is skirmish or massive combat.

I think this is pretty well solved already. Nothing about Warpath -combat mechanic, movement, etc- is optimized for Skirmish. It seems to me that it is aimed clearly at mass combat. In fact, -as was pointed for KoW- Warpath is so focused on mass combat that individually based soldiers are not even necessary. It would work just as well with multi-based figures, especially if done in 6,10 or 15mm scale.

A skirmish battle of a couple of small squads is playable with Warpath, but it's going to be a very short affair. As Mantic says, Warpath is definitely aimed at "Building Big Armies".

As far as I read in the Mantic forums, some players are talking about using moving trays since you dont remove casualties like in 40K. But the problem with trays, the game system is designed to move through difficult terrain like in 40K.

Sometimes it's fun to play some KoW games since the rules are quite different from WHFB. Anyways it's maybe too simple game for tournament use.

^ Quite the opposite, it is designed for tournament play from the ground up.

Chess-clock gameplay can be used, and games play extremely quickly (about a third of the time it takes to play a similar-sized game of warhammer), allowing tournaments to work really well.

Also, KoW has well-written, non-ambigious rule and the army lists are extremely well balanced against each other. There are no "cheese builds" or obvious "you use use this army, therefore you must take these units" flaws with the game.

So, player tactics and strategy determine the winner more than anything else, making it an excellent tournament game..

No random charge distances either, so you can actually plan your movement properly.

Everything that GW does wrong* for its games systems as far as the actual rules and army lists go, Mantic does right.


*By which I mean the stuff it *actually* does wrong, by extreme majority opinion... not the stuff that is subject to opinion. E.g. You won't find anyone disagreeing with the statement that it would be better if GW re-released all the army lists at the start of each new edition and then constantly updated them based on feedback from real-life tournaments and playtesting to ensure good game balance. Mantic does this. GW does not.

I can't speak to the rules themeslves, but I heartily agree that complexity is not a bonus for tournament play. GW has convinced many folks that a ruleset for tournaments should be complex and riddled with tricks and ways to give yourself an advantage. That the INAT FAQ for 40k tournaments stretches to 100 pages is proof enough that 40k is not a tournament-optmized ruleset.

A truely good tournament ruleset will be straitforward and unambiguous and force the player to rely on tactics rather than primarily on listbuilding (still an important part) and rules contortions.

If I can make a comparison: I've been an AT43 player for a few years, and it's quite hard finding opponents compared to the GW games.

Since the AT43 minis have 30 mm round bases and have weird unit numbers (e.g. 6), they can't be used for GW games without conversion, and since they're resin they don't take well to conversions. And Rackham, the company that made them, went out of business for lack of sales.

Mantic's minis, on the other hand, have the GW base size and therefore can be used either as "count-as" for GW games, or for Mantic's own games. They didn't have to hire Mr. Alessio to design a rules set, but they did, so it'd be fair to admit that their rules aren't just window dressing, no more than are all these other fantasy or sf wargames.

Let's be honest, the reason why Mantic is getting that kind of attention is because their minis are cheap. Nice looking, not superb, but very cheap compared to the industry standard.

(And I like their Veer-myn and Goblins. Gonna make Scavvies with the first and Gretchins with the second.)

Just demoed the game at Waynesboro, PA's NEVERLAND GAMES today.

Had three different groups of two players run through the paces with the Mhorgoth Rising boxed set but used the PDF print out of the latest update to the rules.
I encouraged folks to use their Warhammer or any other stuff they wanted as long as the base sizes were standard for the represented unit (i.e., not model bases but movement tray equivalent space taken up).

Folks seemed to like the rules and the models and I had a good time, too.

silence indigo wrote:
Let's be honest, the reason why Mantic is getting that kind of attention is because their minis are cheap. Nice looking, not superb, but very cheap compared to the industry standard.

There's a lot of things they're doing right, you really can't pin it down to any one thing. Excellent free rules, affordable miniatures, great community interaction and use of the internet are the main three.

Personally, I wasn't all that interested in Mantic until they announced they were making a ruleset. Followed them with interest, but it was the rules that got me buying their models.

Plenty of people are buying large amounts of models purely for use in KoW at this point and have largely given up on Warhammer.

I'd say sales are currently about 50/50 in terms of what game system people are buying the models to be used in, with quite a large chunk in the middle of people using them for both games.

If it was all about warhammer clones, then they wouldn't be releasing so many unique units that have no equivalent unit in warhammer, and certainly wouldn't be releasing their human army as a solar cult with angels, nuns and sabertooth cavalry.. they'd have gone with generic landsknetch if they didn't think that their rules were of any interest to a lot of people. They'd have also ditched their "true scale" sculpts to more closely match the style of GW figures if all they wanted to do was peddle knock-offs to skint GW players.

AT-43 is a poor comparison as evidence that "not GW-compatible" = "auto-fail". That game wasn't a failure in itself and was excellent quality and very popular (it had the best background for any sci-fi wargame, bar none). It was more due to the fact that pretty much everything else Rackham did was a complete disaster that killed off the company and took AT-43 down with it.

I haven't played any Mantic games, nor bought any models.

But there is some small amount of interest in the KoW rules since 8th edition has pretty much killed off fantasy in the local scene.

So, I'm kinda hoping the new KoW book is good along with all the army lists since I miss playing mass battle fantasy.