Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Let me guess.

10 DA, Exarch, 2 Catapult, Bladestorm.
Serpent, Spirit Stones, TLBL...
292

I can see...

10 NM, 10 SB.
Rhino.
285

Pretty comparable.

The standard CSM squad with fist/IoCG/2melta/rhino is just 255.

The Night Stalker wrote:I agree with some points. I am going to get some 1k sons soon and see how they do, obviously with a rhino. those AP3 bolters are a nice thing to have

Don't do it, man. Proxy some first, you'll quickly realize why they're so under used.

Mad Rabbit wrote:

The Night Stalker wrote:I agree with some points. I am going to get some 1k sons soon and see how they do, obviously with a rhino. those AP3 bolters are a nice thing to have

Don't do it, man. Proxy some first, you'll quickly realize why they're so underpowered used.

There, fixed it.

My buddy played CSM for years and would grip every game when I would shake-n-bake his rino full of Khorne flakes. What do you expect me to do? Your running a straight Khorne army with two squads of vanilla CSM on the table, CL on a jug, two tard-o dreds, and a two rinos. Whatever could be in those rinos? Could it be Mormons?... no? The judges from American ideal? …wrong again? Well surely no one would fill a fast moving troop transport with a group of CC specialist only to ram them down the throat of my IG!......Right?

Sanctjud wrote:@The Night Stalker:
I hope to Grandfather Nurgle you get a good deal on the Dust Buckets because...well... I hope you don't get let down too hard. I've seen people quit 40K after reading up the Dust Bucket entry in the light of 5th ed.

@radiohazard:
I see it as, the majority of the troops are forgiving...which is the main difference between CSM and Eldar if we accept that both are run similarly.

PM's are generalists, access to special weapons and Fist.
CSM are generalists, access to special weapons and Fist.
NM are generalists, access to special weapons and Fist.

It's the KB (but can take a fist for all-comers) and Dust Buckets that are most limiting, but the Dust Buckets are most dumped on by the 5th Ed Rules.

Defilers are pretty flexible if a bit touched in the head with an identity crisis.
Oblits are the swiss army knives.

Possessed are pretty narrow in their application yes, but in general there doesn't seem a whole lot that's that specialized...

Oh don't worry my parents are getting them for me, I ask, they purchase....well most of the time.

Haha America

doubled wrote:In my humble opinion, the Chaos marines still compete quite well in the hands of a good general. They have a lot to give a general whom can squeeze ever bit of potential out of the force. That being said Chaos could do with a look at the points value, the dreadnought, and lets be honest the entire fast attack section needs an overhaul, or at least a few additional units past the bike and the raptors.

Most armies can compete if given scenarios that favor them, or you *really* know your stuff, your opponent doesn't know his stuff, etc.

I am mostly angry with the current codex as it feels more like Codex: Naughty Emorines instead of Chaos. Where are my robot-sexnoughts of Slannesh? My Doom Wing Fighters of Tzeentch? Sorcerer Councils, Warsmiths with Servo Arms...when I find myself contemplating the Space Wolf codex to represent an Iron Warrior army, something is terribly wrong. :/

Sanctjud wrote:Let me guess.

10 DA, Exarch, 2 Catapult, Bladestorm.
Serpent, Spirit Stones, TLBL...
292

Nope...

10 DA inc Exarch with 2 Catapult, Bladestorm and Defend.
Serpent, Stones, TLSC.

292.

Edit:

I'm beginning to see some sense about what you guys were saying about some of the squad choices.

10 T5 CSM are cheaper and slightly better than a PM unit of equal size just because they are exactly that - cheaper.

So basically go with what what works, but don't forgo some of the cheaper units.

Quantity is it's own Quality???

radiohazard wrote:I can see where you are coming from with the forgiving aspect of the CSM, but they have another failing, which is their lack of numbers point for point over Eldar.

My DA unit + Serpent is 292 points. For an equally equipped unit that has a "similar role" (NM in Rhino), the unit is over 345 points.

To fit it all the different units you need to be successful, you need to take a squad number cut, just to be able to field more effective units.

Again, my two cents.

ummm yeah... you also get S4 T4 3+ save for those 345 points. Definitely not comparable either.

@Radiohazard:

Icon Of Nurgle CSM are the worst possible example you could use. They are uneconomical and full of gak....and that's coming from a Nurgle player...

It's not about cheap...it's about what you get for what you pay, you get very little with IoN marines compare to Plague Marines.

Quanitity is it's own quality, true, but not when you involve the IoN in the debate.
______________________

I agree with Guitardian, Radiohazard, how did you get 345 poitns?
Just add everything up with all the upgrades? That is not being (lets say) "fair" to the CSM side and it just seems like you were making things up. I'm sure you aren't, but it doesn't sound like a very sound comparison.

Sanctjud wrote:@Radiohazard:

Icon Of Nurgle CSM are the worst possible example you could use. They are uneconomical and full of gak....and that's coming from a Nurgle player...

It's not about cheap...it's about what you get for what you pay, you get very little with IoN marines compare to Plague Marines.

Quanitity is it's own quality, true, but not when you involve the IoN in the debate.
______________________

I agree with Guitardian, Radiohazard, how did you get 345 poitns?
Just add everything up with all the upgrades? That is not being (lets say) "fair" to the CSM side and it just seems like you were making things up. I'm sure you aren't, but it doesn't sound like a very sound comparison.

First of all the icon was just an example, not a true tested method.

Secondly...

10 Noise Marines inc. Noise Champion and Rhino = 360.
1 Blastmaster, Power Weapon, Doom Siren, 8 Sonic Blasters.

So I was off by 15 points.

That is why we have to have smaller squad sizes as the same squad size is just extortionately expensive.

So yea...loading up on all the weapons is not something I consider a serious unit to measure up to the Dire Avengers.

Avengers shoot essentially shorter ranged stormbolters...plain and simple.
Why muddy things up and throw in doomsiren/blastmaster/power weapon.

10 DA? Ok, 10 Sonic Blaster mariens, cool, that comparison makes most sense.

Blastmasters are known far and wide for being priced worse than eating gak.
Siren/pw is nice, but that's not a capacity a Sonic Blaster squad needs.

The closer compaison would be storm guardians with triple template vs. the Doomsiren.

152 for the DA, 250 for the NM, that was much more simple. The kicker is they even out when rides are concerned.

So you would take 10 NM with Sonic Blasters and stick them in a rhino???

I would take the PW tho. I5 power weapons in MEQ armies are hella good.

PW are actually pretty poo on 'just' MEQ stats, esp. for a water unit tha is the SB NMs.

Ugh...this is getting cyclic.

You are the one that compared DA to NM.
I'm presenting a case that makes more sense then your unrealistic comparison...that is all.

Sanctjud is extremely correct about the Icon of Nurgle. PMs are a better buy because they are fearless, have +1 toughness AND have FNP. CMs are just +1 toughness, are NOT fearless and have access to the same war gear. PMs are resistant to anti infantry weapons such as auto cannons (thanks to FNP) but not anti armour weapons (such as plasma). Icon of Nurgle CM are vulnerable to both and will run off the table after a few good wounds and bad rolls. The Icon of Nurgle is disgusting for 50 points. It should at least make the squad fearless or offer a moral test re-roll or something to make it worth the points in my opinions.

The tactical reason to take CM over any cult troop is due to the fact that they are cheap and flexible and the Icon of Chaos Glory gives you more bang for your buck. CMs can also provide more firepower that other cult troops may not have access to such as plasma, melta, missile launchers etc (depending on which cult troops you use in comparison).

The only use of the Icon of Nurgle in my opinion (and it is point heavy and non optimal) is to run toughness 6 bikers against opponents that don’t have high amounts of low AP/armour ignoring attack. These guys can be a distraction, damage sponge or summon/teleport support but since chaos bikers are not scoring like SM, this point is moot.

In my opinion, chaos are a Second tier army. Sure they can be fun to play and can win plenty of games however; when you compare an optimal chaos list to a similar list in other armies, they do it better. Personally all chaos needs is the addition of a few extra units, upgrades and a 5th edition point cost adjustment to make it more optimal. All it would take is for GW to release a revised rules/codex add-on PDF for Chaos to fix them but that will never happen lol.

Read carefully, however I'd still like to lodge my complaint about raptors being raped of hit and run ability... prolly the orks stole it (I haven't had the chance to read it since my 5yr hiatus return).

Oh well, my dice karma always screwed me using that rule anyway.

I just don't see how noiseys and avengers are even comparable still, despite all the debate. Let me re-iterate: 3+, S4 T4 is a hell of a boost from 4+, S3 T3 even if their weapons are comparable. That's why Noiseys cost more than avengers... approximately the same output but a lot more input to take down.

To summarize the entire thread: Abandon all hope, ye who do not play a 5th edition codex.

solkan wrote:To summarize the entire thread: Abandon all hope, ye who do not play a 5th edition codex.

QFT lol

I am adding this to my sig

It's okay, all my Eldar just counts as space wolves nowadays...

solkan wrote:To summarize the entire thread: Abandon all hope, ye who do not play a 5th edition codex.

Dark Eldar say otherwise.

@Guitardian:

The idea was that the DA and the NM fulfil similar roles with their StormBolter like weaponry. That and pretty much only that.
________________________________________

As for:

solkan wrote:
To summarize the entire thread: Abandon all hope, ye who do not play a 5th edition codex.

Sanctjud wrote:@Guitardian:

The idea was that the DA and the NM fulfil similar roles with their StormBolter like weaponry. That and pretty much only that.

But you can't just throw that out there like the two traits exist in a vacuum, you know?

Everything about those two units' game mechanics is different pretty much, other than their weapon Strength and BS. The DAs are better on the offense with Bladestorm and Doom and/or Guide, but NM put out slightly less shots(if they've moved) but can take a much worse beating and are fearless. Apples and oranges.

I know, I wasn't the original person to suggest it, I was only running with the idea...

I agree Apples and Oranges.

Prestofet wrote:Whatever could be in those rhinos? Could it be Mormons?

Well played, sir. Well played.

*golf clap*