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 pretre wrote:
Many things make a lot more sense when you read them.

Agreed.

Despite the fact that the story has been discussed to hell, I never actually read the whole thing, just snippets here and there when people quote a sentence or two.

But then, I stopped reading Codex fluff a while back. The most I read these days is web forums, IM chats, and maybe a rulebook or White Dwarf while in the bathroom.

For some bizarre reason, I went from reading books from dusk till dawn, to not even being able to stomach sitting down and reading 40k fluff one story at a time.

 Pouncey wrote:

 pretre wrote:
Many things make a lot more sense when you read them.

Agreed.

Despite the fact that the story has been discussed to hell, I never actually read the whole thing, just snippets here and there when people quote a sentence or two.

But then, I stopped reading Codex fluff a while back. The most I read these days is web forums, IM chats, and maybe a rulebook or White Dwarf while in the bathroom.

For some bizarre reason, I went from reading books from dusk till dawn, to not even being able to stomach sitting down and reading 40k fluff one story at a time.

Ya, I can't tell you how many times I have read that part of fluff to people and they laugh and retract in shock before it finishes and then later tell just that one part. Not to mention, no one knows what Ward's intention was when writing it. If memory serves me, there used to be a Apoc formation that when used before the end of the game & there are no daemons on the table, the GK player must fire upon any non-GK be ally or no. That story (as I have a feeling many of the short stories in all the codexes are) may just be a small snapshot of a large battle they were playing while play testing the rules. This sort of fluff makes its way into D&D books all the time and why not draw from what you know.

The idea is to create a dynamic and engaging universe, if all the armies never wronged each-other and there was nothing but perfect cooperation between the whole of the imperium then every codex would be battle brothers fluffy wise and the game would seem ridiculous to have so many armies.

I actually like some things in the GK book because it can be interpreted in a more silly way.

Like how a bunch of GK changed sides and worshipped Khorne after they performed the blood ritual, sacrificed an entire group of warrior nuns, and smeared their armor with the spilled blood. All of which was done just to get their hands on a Deamon Sword. I like to imagine they disappeared to go test it out on the nearest Orphanarium.

There's also Draigo's section. I actually modeled a Hellbrute after him. Poor guy stuck inside a suit of deamonically possessed armor that tears through the battlefield and devouring loyalists just to power the infernal device and fuel Draigo's dellusions.

 Savageconvoy wrote:
I actually like some things in the GK book because it can be interpreted in a more silly way.

Like how a bunch of GK changed sides and worshipped Khorne after they performed the blood ritual, sacrificed an entire group of warrior nuns, and smeared their armor with the spilled blood. All of which was done just to get their hands on a Deamon Sword. I like to imagine they disappeared to go test it out on the nearest Orphanarium.

There's also Draigo's section. I actually modeled a Hellbrute after him. Poor guy stuck inside a suit of deamonically possessed armor that tears through the battlefield and devouring loyalists just to power the infernal device and fuel Draigo's dellusions.

Despite how the dice gods would take revenge, I've often thought of corrupting the F out of a GK terminator squad as the basis of a CSM army. I think it would look amazing if done right.

 Savageconvoy wrote:
I actually like some things in the GK book because it can be interpreted in a more silly way.

Like how a bunch of GK changed sides and worshipped Khorne after they performed the blood ritual, sacrificed an entire group of warrior nuns, and smeared their armor with the spilled blood. All of which was done just to get their hands on a Deamon Sword. I like to imagine they disappeared to go test it out on the nearest Orphanarium.

There's also Draigo's section. I actually modeled a Hellbrute after him. Poor guy stuck inside a suit of deamonically possessed armor that tears through the battlefield and devouring loyalists just to power the infernal device and fuel Draigo's dellusions.

And people say Ward is bad...

 Necroshea wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 Necroshea wrote:
Blood tide was just a terrible concept. Sisters, who had a member fall to chaos, are used to sanctify GK, whom have never fallen to chaos. Because that makes sense.

As it's been said before, Ward doesn't write fluff, he writes fan fiction.

Grey Knights have never been immune to getting killed by Chaos-related stuff. This is probably the umpteenth time this has been pointed out, and it's going to be the umpteenth time it's ignored because people want to rage against Ward.

I like how you ignore what I posted then tried to make a point about people ignoring things, then claimed I was raging. That's cute.

Bull. You say that it doesn't make sense to use Sister blood to purify Grey Knights because one sister has fallen to Chaos, whereas no Grey Knight has. I point out that the Grey Knights generally aren't immune to dying (excepting Thawn) from warp-related stuff, which explains why they needed the blood from the Sisters who, by some fluke, turned out to be immune.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 Necroshea wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 Necroshea wrote:
Blood tide was just a terrible concept. Sisters, who had a member fall to chaos, are used to sanctify GK, whom have never fallen to chaos. Because that makes sense.

As it's been said before, Ward doesn't write fluff, he writes fan fiction.

Grey Knights have never been immune to getting killed by Chaos-related stuff. This is probably the umpteenth time this has been pointed out, and it's going to be the umpteenth time it's ignored because people want to rage against Ward.

I like how you ignore what I posted then tried to make a point about people ignoring things, then claimed I was raging. That's cute.

Bull. You say that it doesn't make sense to use Sister blood to purify Grey Knights because one sister has fallen to Chaos, whereas no Grey Knight has. I point out that the Grey Knights generally aren't immune to dying (excepting Thawn) from warp-related stuff, which explains why they needed the blood from the Sisters who, by some fluke, turned out to be immune.

I never said they were immune to dying, but I think I understand why you thought I did. When I say fall to chaos, I meant in a sense that they become corrupted. Chaos is the main source of GK death because it's just about all they're exposed to.

 Necroshea wrote:

I never said they were immune to dying, but I think I understand why you thought I did. When I say fall to chaos, I meant in a sense that they become corrupted. Chaos is the main source of GK death because it's just about all they're exposed to.

Right, but the story of the Bloodtide is about physical corruption. I.e. Death from Chaos.

 Manchu wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
My point remains - if it wasn't such a big thing, it wouldn't be such a big thing. That's circular logic in that the conclusion includes the premise, but it's like the "famous for being famous" thing that we attach to certain people. If it were minor. If it were untrue. If there wasn't some nugget of truth to it, then it simply wouldn't keep returning like this.

I think you're coming closer to the problem with that "famous for being famous" line than you think. The vitriol directed against Ward far exceeds any of its own premises. It is exaggeration for the sake of exaggeration, which seems like one of the dominant modes of the internet. When everything flashes by so fast and in the context of a thousand million other things, you might feel like you have to be OTT to get across. It's got to be in huge white letters on a ridiculous picture. This explains why I say Ward hate is not justified and you take it to mean that no cirticism of his work can possibly be valid. As has been pointed out time and time again, all the criticisms aimed at Mat Ward can be aimed with just as much justification at other studio employees. But they aren't. Why? For the exact same reason that Chuck Norris is a meme but Tony Sevalas isn't. It's arbitrary noise. You say it's valid because it keeps coming up. But that's like saying a song is good because the volume is turned up.

Telly Savalas (I guess you mean him, the guy from Kojak) did not throw exact same roundhouse kick a million times with that robotic face expression while playing the character without a slight shade of personality. They shouldn't even be put in one sentence, Chuck Norris being a meme is not arbitrary at all, it's justified as feth.

That's a really good analogy btw, Mat Ward to Chuck Norris. Not to mention Ward could write a guy like Texas Ranger, that's his type of a fictional character.

Were you trying to provide an example of arbitrary noise? Excellent job.

 Necroshea wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 Necroshea wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 Necroshea wrote:
Blood tide was just a terrible concept. Sisters, who had a member fall to chaos, are used to sanctify GK, whom have never fallen to chaos. Because that makes sense.

As it's been said before, Ward doesn't write fluff, he writes fan fiction.

Grey Knights have never been immune to getting killed by Chaos-related stuff. This is probably the umpteenth time this has been pointed out, and it's going to be the umpteenth time it's ignored because people want to rage against Ward.

I like how you ignore what I posted then tried to make a point about people ignoring things, then claimed I was raging. That's cute.

Bull. You say that it doesn't make sense to use Sister blood to purify Grey Knights because one sister has fallen to Chaos, whereas no Grey Knight has. I point out that the Grey Knights generally aren't immune to dying (excepting Thawn) from warp-related stuff, which explains why they needed the blood from the Sisters who, by some fluke, turned out to be immune.

I never said they were immune to dying, but I think I understand why you thought I did. When I say fall to chaos, I meant in a sense that they become corrupted. Chaos is the main source of GK death because it's just about all they're exposed to.

I know you didn't say anything about being immune to dying. Again, read my second post. They need the blood of the Sisters, who are somehow immune to the Bloodtide, to avoid dying. As you correctly observe, dying =/= falling to Chaos.

I figure that those sisters developed the equivalent of faithful anti-bodies.

Horrible Analogy warning:
It is like the GK wandered into the middle of an ebola epidemic with a group of survivors sitting around playing cards. They use the survivors to immunize themselves against the epidemic so they could cleanse it. Wasn't time for proper vaccine creation though, so they just had to wing it.

 pretre wrote:
I figure that those sisters developed the equivalent of faithful anti-bodies.

Horrible Analogy warning:
It is like the GK wandered into the middle of an ebola epidemic with a group of survivors sitting around playing cards. They use the survivors to immunize themselves against the epidemic so they could cleanse it. Wasn't time for proper vaccine creation though, so they just had to wing it.

Ridiculous...yet funny. I accept this explanation.

They should so hire me as their spin doctor.

edit: Or you know codex reviewer. I would do that too.

I can see it now.

>Blood tide blah blah blah
>several pages later
>blah blah blah GK killed sisters, all is well.

Pretre - This sucks! I can fix it!

>Rapid destruction aids everywhere. Sisters blood has faith powered antibodies that are immune and luckily highly transferable. No time for pleasantries
>GK make it rain
>All is well

I'd buy that codex

 Necroshea wrote:
>Rapid destruction aids everywhere. Sisters blood has faith powered antibodies that are immune and luckily highly transferable. No time for pleasantries
>GK make it rain
>All is well

I'd buy that codex

Oh dear lord. I'd like to think I write better than that.

Although I did definitely lol.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I was thinking of acting as more of a 'the internet will have a gak fit over this' detector.

 pretre wrote:

 Necroshea wrote:
>Rapid destruction aids everywhere. Sisters blood has faith powered antibodies that are immune and luckily highly transferable. No time for pleasantries
>GK make it rain
>All is well

I'd buy that codex

Oh dear lord. I'd like to think I write better than that.

Although I did definitely lol.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I was thinking of acting as more of a 'the internet will have a gak fit over this' detector.

As my blacksmith teacher once told me, If it looks good on the first go around, don't screw with it or it will almost always come out worse.

So yeah, less complaining, more publishing!

I'll be honest, one of the reasons I dislike the "Fluff is everything" Crowd when it comes to matt is because of several reasons.

1: Fluff can be found in previous codex, black library, FFG and alternate sources.

2: I'm stuck with the same rules till an update.

So if I'm presented an update which has piss poor updates and innovation, I'm stuck with them for near six to ten years, while fluff I can get from any black library, FFG, or what have you.

Which is mainly why I'm disappointed by the white dwarf update for the chaos renegade codex.

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:
Which is mainly why I'm disappointed by the white dwarf update for the chaos renegade codex.

Eh?
That was a rumor that didn't happen.

Or are you trying to say that the newest Chaos codex is equivalent to a WD update for the previous codex.

 pretre wrote:
Were you trying to provide an example of arbitrary noise? Excellent job.

That was actualy a perfect example of people recognising complete kitsch, cheap acting and stupid fights. There was nothing arbitrary about it, the guy got what he earned for.

 pretre wrote:

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:
Which is mainly why I'm disappointed by the white dwarf update for the chaos renegade codex.

Eh?
That was a rumor that didn't happen.

Or are you trying to say that the newest Chaos codex is equivalent to a WD update for the previous codex.

I'm sure it's the latter, as that's how a lot of people feel.

Plumbumbarum wrote:

 pretre wrote:
Were you trying to provide an example of arbitrary noise? Excellent job.

That was actualy a perfect example of people recognising complete kitsch, cheap acting and stupid fights. There was nothing arbitrary about it, the guy got what he earned for.

Except Chuck Norris delivered horrid acting > thus the internet-meme makes him out to be the coolest thing since sliced bread.

With Mat Ward, it's the inverse.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Sasori wrote:

I'm sure it's the latter, as that's how a lot of people feel.

Funny. What is in there for Renegades I wonder? All I see is the Horus-Heresy guys> Typhon, Kharn, Fabius.. ya know , Abaddon. Hell, they even cut the Wolf of Fenris story of Huron taking on the Wolves.

Funny. What is in there for Renegades I wonder? All I see is the Horus-Heresy guys> Typhon, Kharn, Fabius.. ya know , Abaddon. Hell, they even cut the Wolf of Fenris story of Huron taking on the Wolves.

Funnily enough, most of those could be considered renegades. Typhus left the legion because he felt that the Death Guard wasn't doing anything and so took who would follow him, Fabius bile doesn't care for his origins anymore and works as a biologist who will work for anyone who would want his "Upgrades", Kharn is the betrayer and often kills who comes near or with him, Ahriman was banished by Magnus because of what happened.. They really have no ties to their main legion aside from those that leave and join with them.

The problem is that it seems like chaos has been stuck without any sort of advancement, despite the fluff stating all new daemontech, new vehicle styles, the Dark Mechanicus producing new sorts of vehicles and creations for warbands and legions, new oddities being produced, new weaponry that could be based on fluff.

It's like chaos in the book currently is underfunded and still only using what they took with them from the older days, while the Imperium has kicked it up a notch and produced far more varieties of new things then even Chaos itself...

Reading FFG's books on the Black Crusade, The Tome of Blood and Fate.. It just makes it harder to look back and see no advancement at all aside from a few new units (Which have upgrades that aren't able to be used on anything else apparently)

Plumbumbarum wrote:
Telly Savalas (I guess you mean him, the guy from Kojak) did not throw exact same roundhouse kick a million times with that robotic face expression while playing the character without a slight shade of personality. They shouldn't even be put in one sentence, Chuck Norris being a meme is not arbitrary at all, it's justified as feth.

Yep, this is exactly what I meant by turning up the volume and saying that makes the music better. The more your praise Chuck Norris the more awesome he is, right? (This is not an invitation. Please no more Chuck Norris memery.) And this is exactly what we see done with Ward: the more frequently and hyperbolically we complain about him, the more accurate the criticisms.

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

Funny. What is in there for Renegades I wonder? All I see is the Horus-Heresy guys> Typhon, Kharn, Fabius.. ya know , Abaddon. Hell, they even cut the Wolf of Fenris story of Huron taking on the Wolves.

Funnily enough, most of those could be considered renegades. Typhus left the legion because he felt that the Death Guard wasn't doing anything and so took who would follow him, Fabius bile doesn't care for his origins anymore and works as a biologist who will work for anyone who would want his "Upgrades", Kharn is the betrayer and often kills who comes near or with him, Ahriman was banished by Magnus because of what happened.. They really have no ties to their main legion aside from those that leave and join with them.

Funny enough, that is the state of the Legions in the 41st Century. Manical egos, warlords, traitors and fanatics that haunt the Eye of Terror and the fringes of the Imperium.

The delusion of still fighting the long war "as a Legion" is but one insane self-deception among Chaos Marines, one among many, and certainly nothing that actually still exists in the reality of the 41st century.

 Zweischneid wrote:

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

Funny. What is in there for Renegades I wonder? All I see is the Horus-Heresy guys> Typhon, Kharn, Fabius.. ya know , Abaddon. Hell, they even cut the Wolf of Fenris story of Huron taking on the Wolves.

Funnily enough, most of those could be considered renegades. Typhus left the legion because he felt that the Death Guard wasn't doing anything and so took who would follow him, Fabius bile doesn't care for his origins anymore and works as a biologist who will work for anyone who would want his "Upgrades", Kharn is the betrayer and often kills who comes near or with him, Ahriman was banished by Magnus because of what happened.. They really have no ties to their main legion aside from those that leave and join with them.

Funny enough, that is the state of the Legions in the 41st Century. Manical egos, warlords, traitors and fanatics that haunt the Eye of Terror and the fringes of the Imperium.

The delusion of still fighting the long war "as a Legion" is but one insane self-deception among Chaos Marines, one among many, and certainly nothing that actually still exists in the reality of the 41st century.

The problem is that it seems that the chaos marines are in stasis when it comes to wargear, daemontech, and all sorts of fun Dark Mechanicus type creations that aren't the basic rhino, while the Imperium is the one (In an ironic fashion) upgrading their tech, getting new things, and changing up. While Chaos terminators still use Reaper Autocannons that seem to be in such a rarity that they are vastly expensive to get for them.

 pretre wrote:
Right, but the story of the Bloodtide is about physical corruption. I.e. Death from Chaos.

Much as I find the Blood Tide (and everything in the GK Codex) to be silly, badly-written 12-year-old fan-fiction-y nonsense, I did include it in the Rituals section of Tome of Blood. It seemed like a good ritual for Khorne players to use - channelling part of Ka'jaganath (or however you spell his name) power into a torrent of warp-blood that corrupts everything it touches.

I really need to nut up and get all the ffg books.

Yes you do.

Well, I added a bunch to my amazon wishlist if you want to get me some for my birthday.