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 grendel083 wrote:

 BlackTalos wrote:
Those 2 "Hits" words are very different hits. One is of the weapons shooting at a target, the other if of the same weapons shooting a shield.
We are not ignoring the hits generated in step 3 of the attack, we are using them to confirm a hit on the shield.
Instead: adv. 1. In the place of something previously mentioned; as a substitute or an equivalent.
Replaced? yes probably by the definition above.

A shooting attack that has hit. In game terms meaning has scored one or more hits at step 3 of the shooting sequence.

To then define the second term "hit" to mean anything other than the first, breaks the entire sequence. And it's something you're doing only for blasts and nothing else for unknown reasons.
To say something has hit, while ignoring step 3, you are transferring an unknown number of hits that you're assuming to be 1.

No, it does not break the sequence, it inserts additional information, including hits. (Applies to all weapons in the same way i do blast, dunno why this keeps coming up)
If you disagree with "Adds a step between Step 3 and Step 4", one simple question: How do you resolve a Step 4 armour Pen before re-placing remaining hits on the target unit? (End of Step3)
How i've described it to you, it works. If you just follow p12 Steps, the VSG Rule cannot even exist...

 grendel083 wrote:

If you're applying a shot against a shield, then you're failing to follow the rules of shooting (p12)

How? the shot hit the target per Shooting RaW, which triggered VSG RaW and changed what the weapon actually hit.

Hit the target with how many hits? A shot can be many hits. A shot is measly a means to generate hits.
Hits are required to roll armour pen, or wound.
You cannot do either with a shot. No rule allows this.

In the case of this RaW it cannot, because, quoting:

A Void Shield Generator has a single projected void shield.

If you can ever prove to me how 1 Shot of any weapons of your liking can produce more than 1 Hit on a building, You will have made a very good argument i cannot refute.

Pulse Sub-munitions create 3 hits for each building under the marker for each shot.

 BlackTalos wrote:
If you can ever prove to me how 1 Shot of any weapons of your liking can produce more than 1 Hit on a building, You will have made a very good argument i cannot refute.

The rule does not say that the blast hits the VSG. Another misquote by you to help support your viewpoint.

The actual rule says that the shooting attack hits the projected shield - demonstrably not a building at all and not a model either.

rigeld2 wrote:

 BlackTalos wrote:
There are less hits in your attack than models: RaW Broken

Hardly. The hits were already determined, they're just being applied somewhere else. Nothing is broken.

Oh, and even if you were correct - the VS isn't a model so your stance would still lead to that being broken.

However they are applied, the Rule states you need the X hits for X models.

And indeed, the VS is not even a unit, so I would agree with you that the blast Special Rule doesn't affect VS!
However, all blast weapons have a profile, like Venom Cannon - Assault 1, Blast. If the blast doesn't affect it, the shield still suffers a hit from an Assault 1 weapon.

JinxDragon wrote:
Other weapons also generate a random number of 'Hits' per shot, such as the Ork's Lootas I believe.

Lootas generate a random number of shots that they then roll to hit with.

 BlackTalos wrote:
In the case of this RaW it cannot, because, quoting:

A Void Shield Generator has a single projected void shield.

Only if go by the misguided opinion that a single attack, with a single shot can only cause a single hit on a single target. This opinion is entirely false.

If you can ever prove to me how 1 Shot of any weapons of your liking can produce more than 1 Hit on a building, You will have made a very good argument i cannot refute.

Tesla. Easy.
One attack, one shot, one target
3 hits.

Can I accept your concession now?

JinxDragon wrote:
Pulse Sub-munitions create 3 hits for each building under the marker for each shot.

Have you got a RaW for Pulse?

Does it apply "once the hit is scored", like Tesla? because that's covered.

Finally someone is actually moving this somewhere...
This is seriously the 1st post that has got me questioning the method, even if just partially.

 BlackTalos wrote:
However, all blast weapons have a profile, like Venom Cannon - Assault 1, Blast. If the blast doesn't affect it, the shield still suffers a hit from an Assault 1 weapon.

Not possible - there's no hit involved in this case as the only way to generate hits cannot apply.
You're stretching your argument to the point where there isn't even pretend RAW to support it.

And you're taking a rule from step 3 (blasts hit models under the marker) and trying to apply it later - that doesn't work. Why are you revisiting step 3 solely for blast weapons again?

Rigeld2,
I realized my mistake, why I corrected it within seconds of posting, but I did still name one other weapon which I know for sure does generate multiple hit's against buildings. It was designed that way, with buildings generating a number of Hits, bulky units generating a different number of Hits, Vehicles generating a different number of hits still and normal infantry being... well, unaffected there. Honestly, I find these types of weapons a little broken because of that. The model containing this weapon has two of the things, with permission to fire both, and these weapons use large blast markers with barrage rules. On top of that, these weapons are also capable of being fired twice depending if a secondary Special Rule the model posses is evocable, and on a 3+ it is.

All in all, this one model is capable of firing four shots and generating 12 hits against a single building thanks to this one weapon type.

rigeld2 wrote:

JinxDragon wrote:
Other weapons also generate a random number of 'Hits' per shot, such as the Ork's Lootas I believe.

Lootas generate a random number of shots that they then roll to hit with.

So no different to an Assault 20 creating 20 hits?
My exorcist is Heavy D6, that still "becomes" Heavy 3 for e.g.

 BlackTalos wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

JinxDragon wrote:
Other weapons also generate a random number of 'Hits' per shot, such as the Ork's Lootas I believe.

Lootas generate a random number of shots that they then roll to hit with.

So no different to an Assault 20 creating 20 hits?
My exorcist is Heavy D6, that still "becomes" Heavy 3 for e.g.

Tesla Carbine. P82 of Codex Necrons.
This is an Assault 1 weapon.

One attack, one shot, one target, three hits.

rigeld2 wrote:

 BlackTalos wrote:
However, all blast weapons have a profile, like Venom Cannon - Assault 1, Blast. If the blast doesn't affect it, the shield still suffers a hit from an Assault 1 weapon.

Not possible - there's no hit involved in this case as the only way to generate hits cannot apply.
You're stretching your argument to the point where there isn't even pretend RAW to support it.

And you're taking a rule from step 3 (blasts hit models under the marker) and trying to apply it later - that doesn't work. Why are you revisiting step 3 solely for blast weapons again?

No, the method has a part you probably missed where all this comes in:

 BlackTalos wrote:

Phase: VSG Special Rule wrote:First, you will notice how this is a step, a Special Rule step, where things happen according to the Special Rule.
Now, certain Special Rules trigger when a shot Hits a target, such as Rending and Tesla on 6. Right above, I have shown that the attack hits the shields: Those Rules trigger
So, the rules that trigger on Hit, such as Tesla, now triggers, and: Tesla adds 2 more hits.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

 grendel083 wrote:
Tesla Carbine. P82 of Codex Necrons.
This is an Assault 1 weapon.

One attack, one shot, one target, three hits.

Covered right here.

 BlackTalos wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

 BlackTalos wrote:
However, all blast weapons have a profile, like Venom Cannon - Assault 1, Blast. If the blast doesn't affect it, the shield still suffers a hit from an Assault 1 weapon.

Not possible - there's no hit involved in this case as the only way to generate hits cannot apply.
You're stretching your argument to the point where there isn't even pretend RAW to support it.

And you're taking a rule from step 3 (blasts hit models under the marker) and trying to apply it later - that doesn't work. Why are you revisiting step 3 solely for blast weapons again?

No, the method has a part you probably missed where all this comes in:

 BlackTalos wrote:

Phase: VSG Special Rule wrote:First, you will notice how this is a step, a Special Rule step, where things happen according to the Special Rule.
Now, certain Special Rules trigger when a shot Hits a target, such as Rending and Tesla on 6. Right above, I have shown that the attack hits the shields: Those Rules trigger
So, the rules that trigger on Hit, such as Tesla, now triggers, and: Tesla adds 2 more hits.

Not a single thing you say there applies to the situation I'm talking about. It's like you're just copy/pasting random quotes from your post you said was RAW (which is false) that you think answer things when... they don't.

JinxDragon wrote:
Rigeld2,
I realized my mistake, why I corrected it within seconds of posting, but I did still name one other weapon which I know for sure does generate multiple hit's against buildings. Honestly, I find these types of weapons a little broken because of that. The model containing this weapon has two of the things, with permission to fire both, and these weapons are not just limited to additional damage against Buildings. On top of that, these weapons are also capable of being fired twice depending if a secondary Special Rule the model posses is evocable and on a 3+, it is.

All in all, this one model is capable of firing four shots and generating 12 hits against a single building thanks to this one weapon type.

Could someone post RaW of this? What codex?

http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/Downloads/Product/PDF/R/Rvarna.pdf

rigeld2 wrote:

 BlackTalos wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

 BlackTalos wrote:
However, all blast weapons have a profile, like Venom Cannon - Assault 1, Blast. If the blast doesn't affect it, the shield still suffers a hit from an Assault 1 weapon.

Not possible - there's no hit involved in this case as the only way to generate hits cannot apply.
You're stretching your argument to the point where there isn't even pretend RAW to support it.

And you're taking a rule from step 3 (blasts hit models under the marker) and trying to apply it later - that doesn't work. Why are you revisiting step 3 solely for blast weapons again?

No, the method has a part you probably missed where all this comes in:

 BlackTalos wrote:

Phase: VSG Special Rule wrote:First, you will notice how this is a step, a Special Rule step, where things happen according to the Special Rule.
Now, certain Special Rules trigger when a shot Hits a target, such as Rending and Tesla on 6. Right above, I have shown that the attack hits the shields: Those Rules trigger
So, the rules that trigger on Hit, such as Tesla, now triggers, and: Tesla adds 2 more hits.

Not a single thing you say there applies to the situation I'm talking about. It's like you're just copy/pasting random quotes from your post you said was RAW (which is false) that you think answer things when... they don't.

How do they not? AFTER you get that hit from your shot onto the shield certain Special Rules trigger, because they did not have the chance to trigger in phase 3.

It is the R'varna battle suit, a heavy slot unit provided to the Tau by forge-world.

 BlackTalos wrote:

Phase: VSG Special Rule wrote:First, you will notice how this is a step, a Special Rule step, where things happen according to the Special Rule.
Now, certain Special Rules trigger when a shot Hits a target, such as Rending and Tesla on 6. Right above, I have shown that the attack hits the shields: Those Rules trigger
So, the rules that trigger on Hit, such as Tesla, now triggers, and: Tesla adds 2 more hits.

I'm sorry, where in the VSG rules is this a quote from?
Because you're showing this as a verbatim quote of the VSG rule.
Are you infact showing your opinion here, and claiming it as a rules quote? Some might call this an outright lie.
This quote is also wrong, you're inventing a step, one that would trigger a rule twice, and have no permission to do so.

If you can ever prove to me how 1 Shot of any weapons of your liking can produce more than 1 Hit on a building, You will have made a very good argument i cannot refute.

 grendel083 wrote:
Tesla Carbine. P82 of Codex Necrons.
This is an Assault 1 weapon.

One attack, one shot, one target, three hits.

Covered right here.

You asked, here it is. Exactly what you asked for.
The "covered" as you put it is a made up stage (not to mention a misquote).
I have supplied exactly what you ask for, can I accept your concession now, or do you have another reason why it "doesn't count"?

rigeld2 wrote:
http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/Downloads/Product/PDF/R/Rvarna.pdf

"suffer 3 hits each if they are hit"

Yes 3 Rolls to pen because the clause "if they are hit" is fulfilled, just like Tesla.

Cluster Fire V Shields? Even RaI would say yes to that...


Automatically Appended Next Post:

JinxDragon wrote:
Pulse Sub-munitions create 3 hits for each building under the marker for each shot.

Have you got RaW for those?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 grendel083 wrote:

 BlackTalos wrote:

Phase: VSG Special Rule wrote:First, you will notice how this is a step, a Special Rule step, where things happen according to the Special Rule.
Now, certain Special Rules trigger when a shot Hits a target, such as Rending and Tesla on 6. Right above, I have shown that the attack hits the shields: Those Rules trigger
So, the rules that trigger on Hit, such as Tesla, now triggers, and: Tesla adds 2 more hits.

I'm sorry, where in the VSG rules is this a quote from?
Because you're showing this as a verbatim quote of the VSG rule.
Are you infact showing your opinion here, and claiming it as a rules quote? Some might call this an outright lie.
This quote is also wrong, you're inventing a step, one that would trigger a rule twice, and have no permission to do so.

Phase: VSG Special Rule, put it in a quote to split phases clearly. The entire post was just showing how i read the VSG Special Rule and don't understand why some people can read it the same but others don't.

 grendel083 wrote:

If you can ever prove to me how 1 Shot of any weapons of your liking can produce more than 1 Hit on a building, You will have made a very good argument i cannot refute.

 grendel083 wrote:
Tesla Carbine. P82 of Codex Necrons.
This is an Assault 1 weapon.

One attack, one shot, one target, three hits.

Covered right here.

You asked, here it is. Exactly what you asked for.
The "covered" as you put it is a made up stage (not to mention a misquote).
I have supplied exactly what you ask for, can I accept your concession now, or do you have another reason why it "doesn't count"?

I already agreed Telsa will add hits to your single shot? I concede that Tesla will Roll to Pen the Void Shield more times that it has shot.
Got it.

Rigeld Posted the RAW for those, You read the RAW for those, you just posted on the RAW for those.

just as the "Cluster Fire" Special Rule does. Also conceded!


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Kommissar Kel wrote:
Rigeld Posted the RAW for those, You read the RAW for those, you just posted on the RAW for those.

Got the RaW for "Cluster Fire" on the R'vana, or is "Pulse Sub-munition" the same?

EDIT: Sorry, you are completely correct, apologies.

 BlackTalos wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

 BlackTalos wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

 BlackTalos wrote:
Again, stating things i have not said. They DO follow the same system. The one in that long post if you re-read it carefully.

Essentially, what i am applying *in a way*
Not saying this is as Written as it is not, but might clear things up:
"Each shot will hit the shield" is the conclusion reading the RaW.

So a single shooting attack can only consist of a single shot?
And does that mean an Assault 20 weapon will hit 20 times? Or do you resolve the rolls to-hit and then apply those hits?

No a shooting attack is from any unit, the entire Unit's shots. Assault 20 is 20 shots, as per rules, so you resolve their to-hit, yes. Then transfer the shots that Hit, to hit the shield instead (still not the same "hit")

So you resolve the number of hits prior to moving the shooting attack over to the shield. Correct?
How does a blast weapon determine the number of hits? When does that happen - before or after the shooting attack is moved to the shield?

Correct. 1)By placing the template when you hit the target 2)"Instead hits the projected void shield" Hitting the Void Shield. When does counting models under the template? before the shot is moved and scores a hit on the shield.

rigeld2 wrote:

 BlackTalos wrote:
Agreed, completely. Then it transfers, and you have the Hit the VSG RaW says you have.

Yes - the shooting attack that has hit 10 times transfers, just like a shooting attack that has hit 3 times. I'm glad you finally agree.

Correction - the shooting attack that has hit 10 times transfers the shot, not the 10 hits, just like a shooting attack that has hit 3 times with 3 shots.

Dead wrong. The rule says the ATTACK is transferred. As the blast attack consists of 10 hits, 10 hits are resolved on the shield. Hits are part of the ATTACK.

You have still failed to respond to this point. I have said it about a half a dozen times now.

You have already reviewed and misapplied them, without even realizing what you where misapplying.

Nothing within the Pulse Sub-munion Rules tells us how many hit's are generated against a Special Rule either. Given that the number of hits generated can be between 1-3 depending on what it hit's this weapon can not resolve through your interpretation of events. The lack of the Special Rule telling us to re-calculate based on the generator being hit, which you keep trying to get us to do, prevents us from knowing how many hits this Special Rule is generating.

JinxDragon, your Edited 3 times message had another one? Or was that just the Assault X from Lootas?

 BlackTalos wrote:
Phase: VSG Special Rule, put it in a quote to split phases clearly. The entire post was just showing how i read the VSG Special Rule and don't understand why some people can read it the same but others don't.

It's not a quote from the VSG rule, so don't put it as one.
It's the exact same as putting words in others mouths.
Express your opinion by all means, please do, but don't claim it's a quote from a rule.

I already agreed Telsa will add hits to your single shot? I concede that Tesla will Roll to Pen the Void Shield more times that it has shot.
Got it.

Ok, so we now have more than one example that a single shot on a single target DOES NOT equal a single hit.
You are on board with this notion now, correct?

I removed just the Loota, as I recognized the error within seconds of hitting post.
The other one I mentioned is the Pulse Sub-munitions special rule, which you have been given but try to somehow have us calculate using the Generator instead... without any rule granting us permission to do so.

JinxDragon wrote:
You have already reviewed and misapplied them, without even realizing what you where misapplying.

Nothing within the Pulse Sub-munion Rules tells us how many hit's are generated against a Special Rule either. Given that the number of hits generated can be between 1-3 depending on what it hit's this weapon can not resolve through your interpretation of events. The lack of the Special Rule telling us to re-calculate based on the generator being hit, which you keep trying to get us to do, prevents us from knowing how many hits this Special Rule is generating.

I agree there is an issue between the 2 Special Rules. The VSG SR still uses instead (In the place of something previously mentioned; as a substitute or an equivalent) and therefore substitutes the hits, but cannot do so with this Rule. This would indeed make it unclear whether it applies onto the unit before it substitutes or after onto the shield.
However:

Extremely Bulky and (...) targeted buildings and fortifications suffer 3 hits each

Is the VSG not a Fortification choice for your army? You would apply the SR to the hit on the shield and Pen 3 times, still?

 BlackTalos wrote:
Is the VSG not a Fortification choice for your army? You would apply the SR to the hit on the shield and Pen 3 times, still?

Why is that relevant? The VSG is not involved in the shooting attack, the shields are.

 grendel083 wrote:

 BlackTalos wrote:
Phase: VSG Special Rule, put it in a quote to split phases clearly. The entire post was just showing how i read the VSG Special Rule and don't understand why some people can read it the same but others don't.

It's not a quote from the VSG rule, so don't put it as one.
It's the exact same as putting words in others mouths.
Express your opinion by all means, please do, but don't claim it's a quote from a rule.

When i refer back to my post i shall ensure i remove that part.

 grendel083 wrote:

I already agreed Telsa will add hits to your single shot? I concede that Tesla will Roll to Pen the Void Shield more times that it has shot.
Got it.

Ok, so we now have more than one example that a single shot on a single target DOES NOT equal a single hit.
You are on board with this notion now, correct?

Indeed, when the Special Rule(Tesla e.g.) in question is applied to a hit suffered by a Special Rule(VSG).

rigeld2 wrote:

 BlackTalos wrote:
Is the VSG not a Fortification choice for your army? You would apply the SR to the hit on the shield and Pen 3 times, still?

Why is that relevant? The VSG is not involved in the shooting attack, the shields are.

Because you need to know for the "Cluster Fire" Special Rule

JinxDragon wrote:
You have already reviewed and misapplied them, without even realizing what you where misapplying.

Nothing within the Pulse Sub-munion Rules tells us how many hit's are generated against a Special Rule either. Given that the number of hits generated can be between 1-3 depending on what it hit's this weapon can not resolve through your interpretation of events. The lack of the Special Rule telling us to re-calculate based on the generator being hit, which you keep trying to get us to do, prevents us from knowing how many hits this Special Rule is generating.

And what i conclude from this: If the Rvarna was not experimental Rules not yet agreed for 40k (and therefore not yet part of the RaW), there would indeed be a big problem. (Maybe why they're still experimental?)




I know, cowardly and hiding behind "experimental". But it just creates a problem, not prove that RaW for VSG works by substituting the hits or transferring all of them...

. There are less hits in your attack than models: RaW Broken

No because we are told to transfer the attack (and therefore those hits too) to the shield. You are the one saying we reduce the number of hits not us. Unless you are claiming the unit still suffers the hits as well?

So again you concede because you won't give the answer. So again I ask why continue posting when you've already conceded?