Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

I fully expect GW to do limited re-releases of various kits, tied to Dataslates with more power.

Perhaps GWs aim with all this is to finaly make "fantasy" a 40k prequel, aka the postapocalyptic society the once and future god emperor united.
Fans would implode with indigination and nerd rage, but at least we would get squats back


Edit: Im joking ofcourse.

But .. would fans implode in their own pocket realities?

There was always that rumour that sigmar was the primarch of one of the 'classified' legions.......

As a WHFB player since 5th ed., having played it and dropped it off and on over the years, I have to say that I think the prospoects for 9th ed. are really intriguing. I haven't played since the beginnings of 8th, but the shake-up of End Times and promise of progressing th storyline has gotten me interested in picking it back up again. I mean, as expensive as 40k is, as many models as you need for it, WHFB is even more model intensive. Can you make a small, elite WHFB army? Sure, but it's harder to do than in 40k. It'd be nice if they brought the scale of WHFB (from a model number perspective) back in line with 40k. 9th could be a good way to do it.

 Vermis wrote:

 Yodhrin wrote:

Errrm, I'm pretty sure Vermis was agreeing with Gubbinz, ie making exactly the opposite of the argument you're stating. That's why I was having a pop, I'm getting tired of the whole "ermahgerd just play old editions/other companies' games/write your own rules, you lazy GW-sheeple!" shtick that gets thrown around every time someone objects to the decisions GW have been making recently.

Oh wait, that was a pop at me, right?

S'cool. Like I said before, I'm not your problem. People who talk about alternate rules and striking out to find other venues and opponents whenever GW pulls the rug from under you again are not your problem.
-snip-

Yes mate, yes you are my problem, because the implicit assumption you and your ilk are making when you feel the need to give everyone this "advice" over, and over, and over again in every thread where GW's behaviour is a subject is that everyone but you must be too stupid to have figured these obvious points out already. That perception is not helped by the tone of your posts specifically, which are often written as if you're an adult talking to a room of small children.

Look at the amount of assumptions you're making; I'm not even one of the people your "advice" is aimed at, I mostly play dead Specialist Games with occasional fluff-focused campaigns of the main systems, my model purchases these days are mostly non-GW(and those that are GW are mostly second hand). That doesn't mean I can't find GW's behaviour and treatment of their fanbase repugnant and say so, but you leap straight to the conclusion that anyone who doesn't agree with your specific view of how folk should deal with that must necessarily need you to explain things to them nice and slowly, so their GW-addled brains can understand.

 Torga_DW wrote:
There was always that rumour that sigmar was the primarch of one of the 'classified' legions.......

Yeah that was pre-horus heresy books rumor. Doesn't really apply anymore as the fluff has been detailed much more over 31 books.

 gorgon wrote:

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:
I feel sorry for veteran players who could be affected by this...

BUT

I can see where GW are coming from.

From all accounts, Fantasy is dying on its feet. Continuing a failed trend and giving us version 8.1 is unlikely to arrest this decline.

Streamlining is a sensible plan to me. Fantasy, in my view, has enough dead wood as it is. To be honest, I'd rather see 6 well supported factions, with regular updates and models, than the constant bloat of having to wait 6 years for a new wood elf book.

Also, it could be that this new version allows GW to produce a tight, well balanced set of rules.

Yeah, I think they've played just about every other card they could. They've moved most everything to plastic, created new units and giant kits, and have used the rules to encourage people to have larger armies. But they're just about tapped out on that stuff, even as they've made the barrier to entry taller and increased the number of SKUs they have to manage. Mild tweaks paired with additional bloat just isn't going to reverse the decline.

And I still think that the notion that "everything is invalidated!!!" will prove to be untrue. There will undoubtedly be some pain, but I suspect that plenty of old minis will still be hitting the tabletop.

It's a no-win situation for GW. If they did nothing, and released version 8.1, everybody would criticise them for falling sales and doing nothing to arrest the decline of fantasy.

Now that they could be changing things, people are attacking them anyway. I swear, more people are becoming like goldilocks with each passing day

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:
It's a no-win situation for GW. If they did nothing, and released version 8.1, everybody would criticise them for falling sales and doing nothing to arrest the decline of fantasy.

Now that they could be changing things, people are attacking them anyway. I swear, more people are becoming like goldilocks with each passing day

"Change" alone is not good enough. It is never good enough. Which changes you make are always more important than anything else, and there is nothing hypocritical or contradictory about comprehending that fact.

No need for this comment. Reds8n

I haven't seen anyone complain about change being bad. Plenty of people complaining about these specific changes being bad though.

I don't know if I'm with the doom mongers on this one. The more I read about the proposed changes the more intrigued I become. It sounds like GW are actually willing to take in risk in turning WFB around. WFB has become a rather stale game of late and financially it is in decline. I honestly believe that if it weren’t for the fact that it was the ‘original’ GW game and as a result enjoyed a sort of protected/heritage status it would probably have been dropped years ago.

It enjoys shelf space, studio attention, model releases and magazine coverage that is vastly out of proportion with the amount it revenue it generates. Perhaps during the boom times that could be tolerated but not GW are in a vulnerable position they either need to turn it into a viable game with unique appeal or drop it all together and concentrate on 40k which is where the real money is.

Moving away from generic Tolkienesque fantasy races and Historical influenced human armies is probably a good idea and even the round bases thing isn’t putting me off. If the game engine can handle both skirmishes and massed battles that opens up allot of different game types and makes the game accessible to people whom simply wouldn’t have been able to contemplate the huge buy in cost for WFB as it currently stands.

I’m actually interested in seeing what they do with this. More interested than I’ve been by a new WFB edition in years.

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:
It's a no-win situation for GW. If they did nothing, and released version 8.1, everybody would criticise them for falling sales and doing nothing to arrest the decline of fantasy.

If it is a no-win situation for GW it's one of their own making. If they were engaged with their customer base they could avoid doing things that lead to thinking that destroying a 30-year-old product line is the best option on the table.

If only there was some way GW could find out what the fans wanted instead of making wild guesses. If only...

@JohnHwangDD Your avater is distracting, please provide more similar pictures so that one is less distracting.....

 Rick_1138 wrote:
@JohnHwangDD Your avater is distracting, please provide more similar pictures so that one is less distracting.....

There is one poster that has an avatar of Gianna Michaels that I'm amazed made it past the mods. BTW if you don't know who Gianna Michaels is then for goodness sake don't google her at work!

 Rick_1138 wrote:
@JohnHwangDD Your avater is distracting, please provide more similar pictures so that one is less distracting.....

Already blocked the avatar

 pretre wrote:
I know that it has probably been said better previously but... The more rumors I see, the more I am reminded of 'pancake edition' 40k.

My thoughts exactly. Then again, before 6th Ed there wasn't a massive world-changing series of books that dramatically altered the base storyline of the entire setting.

Herzlos wrote:
I haven't seen anyone complain about change being bad. Plenty of people complaining about these specific changes being bad though.

You're kidding?

Everytime a new version of 40k or fantasy or a codex comes out, most, but not all, do nothing but complain.

Why haven't my Chaos Warriors got 40 attacks each or why can't my gretchin defeat a Titan in close combat I exaggerate, but people do nothing but whine on this forum with each new release. GW are damned if they do, damned if they don't. And I say this as somebody that bailed out of the GW hobby 2-3 years ago.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 LuciusAR wrote:
I don't know if I'm with the doom mongers on this one. The more I read about the proposed changes the more intrigued I become. It sounds like GW are actually willing to take in risk in turning WFB around. WFB has become a rather stale game of late and financially it is in decline. I honestly believe that if it weren’t for the fact that it was the ‘original’ GW game and as a result enjoyed a sort of protected/heritage status it would probably have been dropped years ago.

It enjoys shelf space, studio attention, model releases and magazine coverage that is vastly out of proportion with the amount it revenue it generates. Perhaps during the boom times that could be tolerated but not GW are in a vulnerable position they either need to turn it into a viable game with unique appeal or drop it all together and concentrate on 40k which is where the real money is.

Moving away from generic Tolkienesque fantasy races and Historical influenced human armies is probably a good idea and even the round bases thing isn’t putting me off. If the game engine can handle both skirmishes and massed battles that opens up allot of different game types and makes the game accessible to people whom simply wouldn’t have been able to contemplate the huge buy in cost for WFB as it currently stands.

I’m actually interested in seeing what they do with this. More interested than I’ve been by a new WFB edition in years.

You hit the nail on the head here. GW are recognising that their fantasy line is turning into the Titanic, but rather than jump overboard and try and save the situation, some people are more concerned about the lifeboats being the wrong colour!


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 MWHistorian wrote:
If only there was some way GW could find out what the fans wanted instead of making wild guesses. If only...

Didn't they have their own message boards years ago, but got swamped out by people complaining so much, they pulled the plug?

My main 2 beef with warhammer : the bubblelicious edition, is limited time release, and dropping armies.
it cost so much money and takes so much time that no one should have their army invlaidated,
Limited time release is also lame, since it will turn the game into a colletible card game tyoe of game.

Oh, and fantasy space marines sound lame as hell, but if they look like the warrior priest, it might be cool. I just hope that it's only the human elite that are like this, and not every human. Would be dumb if human become stronger in cc than orcs and beastmens.

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:
Didn't they have their own message boards years ago, but got swamped out by people complaining so much, they pulled the plug?

That was a reference to market research, which GW apparently does not conduct. Forums are a terrible place to gather useful feedback.

 Rick_1138 wrote:
@JohnHwangDD Your avater is distracting, please provide more similar pictures so that one is less distracting.....

Dude, you're on the internet. If you find that little picture there distracting, never leave this forum. There are other things out there you would be horrified to see...

Back on topic, there might be some merit to the changes. Reducing the amount of models in an army isn't a bad idea, streamlining the rules is allways good and less factions may improve the ballance.
However, as this is GW we're talking about, i dread the execution. They'll handle this along the lines of "instead of 10 plastic dudesmen for 30€ you'll get 3 slightly bigger plastic dudesmen for 35€", the new factions will be horribly ballanced as there is no reference anymore and every single unit will have so many special rules, exceptions and abilities that learning the core rules becomes borderline-unnecessary.

 His Master's Voice wrote:

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:
Didn't they have their own message boards years ago, but got swamped out by people complaining so much, they pulled the plug?

That was a reference to market research, which GW apparently does not conduct. Forums are a terrible place to gather useful feedback.

And yet other companies manage with forums and interact with their members and glean information which works it way into their systems - hey, its market research!

And there is no apparently about it. GW explicitly does not conduct market research.

 Kirasu wrote:

 Torga_DW wrote:
There was always that rumour that sigmar was the primarch of one of the 'classified' legions.......

Yeah that was pre-horus heresy books rumor. Doesn't really apply anymore as the fluff has been detailed much more over 31 books.

Has it really been that many already and they're not even half way through yet? Does that include the audio books and novellas as well?

I personally hope they keep away from the whole 40k-WHFB connection. It just cheapens the whole Fantasy environment, if they're just one backwater planet floating amongst the sea of things going on in 40k. Nothing really matters when a Space Marines could theoretically land at any time and wipe out all of the forces in the game!

 warboss wrote:

 Kirasu wrote:

 Torga_DW wrote:
There was always that rumour that sigmar was the primarch of one of the 'classified' legions.......

Yeah that was pre-horus heresy books rumor. Doesn't really apply anymore as the fluff has been detailed much more over 31 books.

Has it really been that many already and they're not even half way through yet? Does that include the audio books and novellas as well?

There's 31 novels, and they are chronologically halfway through the Heresy iirc. A few of them are very filler-y and you don't have to read them, and personally I like the majority of them, but yeah there is a fair few.

This is an interesting thread.

At face value, from the perspective of a vet Fantasy gamer, this seems pretty bad.

But overall, I think these changes would be good, if executed well.

Fantasy overall is kind of like a dying elven civilization. It's this big, grand, over-arching structure that is becoming less and less relevant to today's gaming sphere, with a lot of significant breakpoints (primarily around model count, cost; secondarily around game length, rules bloat/complexity).

If you back off and really look at Fantasy, it's a skirmish game, but the base unit size is not one model as most other skirmish games are, it's a block of half a dozen to dozens of individual figures.

If you did keep the same core game 'feel' but break these ridiculous model counts down, I could see the appeal of that game. It'd be more like super-Mordheim than Fantasy-lite, and I think that would generate interest/momentum for the line. Overall that would be good.

But it wouldn't be the same grand structure, obviously. I would expect the system to lose a lot of its character, and what remained would be more simplistic, but also probably more adaptable and fertile ground for advancement.

The time of the Elf is over, this is the Age of the Orc.

Now, these two things obviously aren't mutally exclusive. You could have ::gasp!:: both. From the perspective of a manufacturing company watching declining sales and market share, though, it does make sense to drastically cut or scale back the Fantasy line in this sort of fashion, though. It's actually pretty standard restructuring practice.

It doesn't need to be this extreme, though. Just get the model count back down to the 4th/5th level (without the herohammer mind you). Big units were 20-24. Elite units ran 12-16.

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 LuciusAR wrote:
I don't know if I'm with the doom mongers on this one. The more I read about the proposed changes the more intrigued I become. It sounds like GW are actually willing to take in risk in turning WFB around. WFB has become a rather stale game of late and financially it is in decline. I honestly believe that if it weren’t for the fact that it was the ‘original’ GW game and as a result enjoyed a sort of protected/heritage status it would probably have been dropped years ago.

It enjoys shelf space, studio attention, model releases and magazine coverage that is vastly out of proportion with the amount it revenue it generates. Perhaps during the boom times that could be tolerated but not GW are in a vulnerable position they either need to turn it into a viable game with unique appeal or drop it all together and concentrate on 40k which is where the real money is.

Moving away from generic Tolkienesque fantasy races and Historical influenced human armies is probably a good idea and even the round bases thing isn’t putting me off. If the game engine can handle both skirmishes and massed battles that opens up allot of different game types and makes the game accessible to people whom simply wouldn’t have been able to contemplate the huge buy in cost for WFB as it currently stands.

I’m actually interested in seeing what they do with this. More interested than I’ve been by a new WFB edition in years.

You hit the nail on the head here. GW are recognising that their fantasy line is turning into the Titanic, but rather than jump overboard and try and save the situation, some people are more concerned about the lifeboats being the wrong colour!

The primary concern I have with all of what i've read isn't so much it's changing, so much as how drastic a change this is, and wondering what this is going to do to my current collection/army, which I think anyone would have a right to complain about legitimately. As someone who plays Dwarves reading a rumour that my army is going to be merged into Empire and made as a small, survivour sub-race within them isn't exactly something I want to be hearing. I have quite a large dwarf army collection, having everything tossed up into the air and potentially told I now have to start over again and at GW's prices..? Yeeeea to hell with that, no thank you. Will wait and see how crazy a change this prooves to be but if GW is going to shatter my army into a sub-race of Empire and invalidate a lot of my collection in the process i'm not giving them more money and going on...

Your current army doesn't sell models!

(don't mean to come off so harsh. I'm mostly joking)

 sourclams wrote:
This is an interesting thread.

At face value, from the perspective of a vet Fantasy gamer, this seems pretty bad.

But overall, I think these changes would be good, if executed well.

Fantasy overall is kind of like a dying elven civilization. It's this big, grand, over-arching structure that is becoming less and less relevant to today's gaming sphere, with a lot of significant breakpoints (primarily around model count, cost; secondarily around game length, rules bloat/complexity).

If you back off and really look at Fantasy, it's a skirmish game, but the base unit size is not one model as most other skirmish games are, it's a block of half a dozen to dozens of individual figures.

If you did keep the same core game 'feel' but break these ridiculous model counts down, I could see the appeal of that game. It'd be more like super-Mordheim than Fantasy-lite, and I think that would generate interest/momentum for the line. Overall that would be good.

But it wouldn't be the same grand structure, obviously. I would expect the system to lose a lot of its character, and what remained would be more simplistic, but also probably more adaptable and fertile ground for advancement.

The time of the Elf is over, this is the Age of the Orc.

Now, these two things obviously aren't mutally exclusive. You could have ::gasp!:: both. From the perspective of a manufacturing company watching declining sales and market share, though, it does make sense to drastically cut or scale back the Fantasy line in this sort of fashion, though. It's actually pretty standard restructuring practice.

Good post. In my view Fantasy has an identity crisis - it doesn't know what it what it wants to be. RPG? Skirmish game? Historical style game with big battles? We don't know. Instead, we get a horrible mish-mash of all three of those elements. This happens in 40k as well, but 40k's popularity means that they get away with it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

GenRifDrake wrote:

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 LuciusAR wrote:
I don't know if I'm with the doom mongers on this one. The more I read about the proposed changes the more intrigued I become. It sounds like GW are actually willing to take in risk in turning WFB around. WFB has become a rather stale game of late and financially it is in decline. I honestly believe that if it weren’t for the fact that it was the ‘original’ GW game and as a result enjoyed a sort of protected/heritage status it would probably have been dropped years ago.

It enjoys shelf space, studio attention, model releases and magazine coverage that is vastly out of proportion with the amount it revenue it generates. Perhaps during the boom times that could be tolerated but not GW are in a vulnerable position they either need to turn it into a viable game with unique appeal or drop it all together and concentrate on 40k which is where the real money is.

Moving away from generic Tolkienesque fantasy races and Historical influenced human armies is probably a good idea and even the round bases thing isn’t putting me off. If the game engine can handle both skirmishes and massed battles that opens up allot of different game types and makes the game accessible to people whom simply wouldn’t have been able to contemplate the huge buy in cost for WFB as it currently stands.

I’m actually interested in seeing what they do with this. More interested than I’ve been by a new WFB edition in years.

You hit the nail on the head here. GW are recognising that their fantasy line is turning into the Titanic, but rather than jump overboard and try and save the situation, some people are more concerned about the lifeboats being the wrong colour!

The primary concern I have with all of what i've read isn't so much it's changing, so much as how drastic a change this is, and wondering what this is going to do to my current collection/army, which I think anyone would have a right to complain about legitimately. As someone who plays Dwarves reading a rumour that my army is going to be merged into Empire and made as a small, survivour sub-race within them isn't exactly something I want to be hearing. I have quite a large dwarf army collection, having everything tossed up into the air and potentially told I now have to start over again and at GW's prices..? Yeeeea to hell with that, no thank you. Will wait and see how crazy a change this prooves to be but if GW is going to shatter my army into a sub-race of Empire and invalidate a lot of my collection in the process i'm not giving them more money and going on...

I'm very sympathetic to your point of view, but look at it this way: if GW do nothing, and continue with the failed approach, there is a chance that your army would be invalidated anyway, for the simple reason that Fantasy was no longer financially viable, and thus up for the chop.