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You guys remember the good times of fish of fury? How about 6th edition? No power there at all, right?

Fish of fury was good, but not nearly as good as they are now.

Martel732 wrote:
Yeah, the 4 th ed tau codex was totally dominant. /snark

4th had the gimmicky fish of fury lists, but even in 3rd and 5th there was always a strangely large amount of players that felt Tau shouldn't be allowed to stop or compete in close combat (which basically means that they didn't want Tau to ever be competitive). Despite having a pretty strong player base from their introduction in 3rd, Tau have always been one of the most hated factions.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Martel732 wrote:
Fish of fury was good, but not nearly as good as they are now.

Indeed, and by the end of 4th even fish of fury wasn't enough to truly compete against some of the more competitive lists. Tau in 4th were a lot like Tyranids in 6th. They had a generally bad codex that was propped up by a single unit (flyrants/devilfishes).

Akiasura wrote:
If you guys ever want to hit the goal post we'd set early on in the thread, I'd listen

It wasn't a problem of wanting, it was getting the opposition to show up! The spectre of possible defeat and ensuing public ridicule can be quite discouraging

Akiasura wrote:
...we've had several posters saying the Riptide is fine throughout the thread. That's what the discussion was about.

They are fine if you're playing against 5x Wraithknights, and that's a 100% legal battleforged 40k list. Devil's advocate, right?

At the end of the day GW does not exercise tight control over how players set up the game, points are not a qualitative measure of effectiveness and you can't dynamically tailor your army like in an RTS. Apocalypse-style formations which were meant to help "small toy" units against "big toy" GMCs and SHVs don't balance anything against a 40k CAD, and in certain cases GW writers are straight up copy-pasting entries across. Of course it's broken. Look at auxiliaries within faction detachments. Let's just give Deathmarks and Flayed Ones a 4+ RP, because.... well who cares about reasons? That's power creep baby! There is no baseline of comparison at all anymore. The CAD has been abandoned and nothing really restricts choices (5 Flyrants? Really?). There's no longer the same focus on core troops that evens out balance between factions. Meanwhile, formation special rules jack up power at the whims of the GW rules teams, and obviously deadlines and the coffee machine running dry will affect quality. It's the apocalypse dude!

Riptide Wing exists within the perspective of these other problems. You cannot take an army of 2x Stormsurges, 3x Riptides, and a Marker Drone formation against a BA CAD with 5th edition TAC choices and call that balance. I mean you could play it but narratively, wouldn't you at least try and set up an interesting scenario that's not a shooting gallery?

You can tailor like crazy for meta but this is still either bad design, an outdated update model causing frustration, players not accepting reality, or a mix of all three. That said, as the player your only option is to pass through these stages:

Denial - I used to win a lot, my poor outdated army can still compete. I'm gonna manage
Anger - I really want to smash Wraithknights and Riptides with a mallet. Feth you all
Bargaining - Maybe I can get a Knight Warden
Acceptance - My army is not competitive. Let's play kill team instead

Sound familiar?

 chalkobob wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Yeah, the 4 th ed tau codex was totally dominant. /snark

4th had the gimmicky fish of fury lists, but even in 3rd and 5th there was always a strangely large amount of players that felt Tau shouldn't be allowed to stop or compete in close combat (which basically means that they didn't want Tau to ever be competitive). Despite having a pretty strong player base from their introduction in 3rd, Tau have always been one of the most hated factions.

To an extent, it had a lot to do with the perception that they were just an "anime" styled faction. There's a lot of people who love them because of that reason and hate them for the same reason.

I cannot genuinely think of anyone suggesting that Tau shouldn't be allowed to compete in close combat beyond Tau players trying to use that as an excuse as to why their shooting abilities needed to be buffed up significantly.

Prior to the last two Tau books, Tau did not have a way to "stop close combat" beyond shooting an enemy to death in the shooting phase. It's gotten really out of hand with the addition of Supporting Fire for Overwatch. Tau units, coupled with gimmicks like the Ethereal Invocation of Elements and its "Storm of Fire" from an embarked Ethereal in a Devilfish and the Fireblade's "Volley Fire" ability, put out an absurd amount of fire in the Shooting phase.

Add in the fact that the "Storm of Fire" ability also affects Overwatch and things like the Longshot Pulse Rifle and they're putting out as much fire as an equivalent points of Guardsmen with far less model count.

I don't hate them because of anime. I hate unkillable models with AP2 ignore cover blast templates.

 Kanluwen wrote:


I cannot genuinely think of anyone suggesting that Tau shouldn't be allowed to compete in close combat beyond Tau players trying to use that as an excuse as to why their shooting abilities needed to be buffed up significantly.

As a tau player that often allies Daemons to my lists I get it all the time. When I don't ally daemons I hear people complain Tau are boring since it reduces the game to just their shooting phase which is a fair point, so I add daemons, and then I get people complaining that Tau shouldn't have good assault units because it removes the one weakness they had (despite every point I spend on daemons being a point i'm not spending on Tau firepower). Even back in 3rd edition when Chapter Approved released the Kroot Kindred's Mercenary list I used to moan how other armies now had access to better Kroot than Tau did. The argument I would hear is that allowing Tau access to kroot kindreds would give Tau access to winged Kroot, and shapers that could take eviscerators, and that giving the Tau some decent assault options would make them overpowered. (Despite Tau being one of the worst armies in 3rd).

Prior to the last two Tau books, Tau did not have a way to "stop close combat" beyond shooting an enemy to death in the shooting phase.

In 5th Tau were one of the worst factions.

It's gotten really out of hand with the addition of Supporting Fire for Overwatch. Tau units, coupled with gimmicks like the Ethereal Invocation of Elements and its "Storm of Fire" from an embarked Ethereal in a Devilfish and the Fireblade's "Volley Fire" ability, put out an absurd amount of fire in the Shooting phase.

Add in the fact that the "Storm of Fire" ability also affects Overwatch and things like the Longshot Pulse Rifle and they're putting out as much fire as an equivalent points of Guardsmen with far less model count.

I agree a lot of Tau units and abilities could use a nerf, I never claimed otherwise, my initial point was explaining Sidstyler's comment of Tau being hated on by an unfortunately large group of people whether they are overpowered or not.

Wouldn't spamming BA fliers help deal with riptide heavy army? If its the case, that would be both a good and fluffy solution.

That was the "Angel's Fury" formation.

If I knew I were playing Tau, and I owned the SRs, I'd use it all the time. However, since I don't know my opponents, I never saw a reason to get the SRs for that formation.

That relic jump pack does wonders for making sure units stick on the board and don't get intercepted by that s8ap2 blast. Last game I played against Tau with my blood angels I won. I used DC in a spartan with ceramite, 10 strong sanguinary guard with Dante and a Priest w/ relic jump pack, 2x fragioso dreads in pods, and some tac squads in pods w/ heavy flamer. The tau list had missilesides with buffmander, riptide, pathfinders, kroot, firewarriors, and other bits and bobs. It did not have a ghostkeel or stormsurge.

Turn one I dropped a dread and the heavy flamer squad and he killed most of the heavy flamer squad in intercept but I positioned correctly and the flamer lived and roasted marker drones. The fragioso didn't get intercepted and roasted a ton of pathfinders, as the riptide went after the marines and the broadsides decided to wait because tank hunter from the buffmander wasn't active yet (I went first). Turn 1 I had removed 90% of his marker light sources before he got to use them. When Dante showed up, I deep struck them in ruins for the 4+ cover which the Tau player couldn't remove as he had lost too many marker lights. Another furioso came down and gave the tau player fits because Tau have a real hard time dealing with av13 in intercept. Turn 3 I multi-assaulted everything in his deployment zone and wiped all everything out.

The take-aways from this anecdotal story is as follows: Tau have a hard time versus land raiders that are melta-proof. The Relic JP is amazing at making sure your scary jump unit sticks the landing and lives through the snap shot intercept. Burn ALL the markerlights with (heavy) flamers (heavy flamers for drones, frag cannons/flamers for pathfinders). Present multiple threats and you can overwhelm their shooting.

Also, from previous experience versus Tau, Imperial Knights give them fits. The combo of AV13 and a 4++ in the direction of their scary guns makes it a high priority target that absorbs a TON of fire before it goes down.

This thread is ridiculous. Mods please close this.

Martel, If you don't want to play BA because you lose all the time, then give up on them. Don't sell them because you still love them. Shelve the army until the BA's get a new codex.
As a side note, Have you even posted everything you own for BA? Perhaps people can help your lists if they knew what you had.

Next, Martel, Like others have said, you seem to complain a lot but don't seem to want to update your models, play style or tactics.

We have a tau player in our FLGS who bought a whole blood angels army and loves playing them. HE HAS ALSO BOUGHT more models for the army. AND HE WINS, against other armies that are power armies.

HOW? MSU. Drops 9 drop pods with meltas, plasma and flamers. and uses LOS blocking cover to his advantage. Ignores most tau armor. Ignores MCs or ties them up in combat.


Lastly. What kind of terrain do you play on? If you can't seemingly do anything because you are getting shot off the board in turn 1, you do not have enough terrain for this game. Or you're really bad at deployment.

I play tau. loved tau from DOW games. they were my first army. the first year of gaming was done in my basement against my friend. He was also new and gravitated towards chaos and tyrannids.

I lost a lot of games. far more than i ever won. Why? Lots of Terrain, MSU and SPEED! I had too many things to shoot at. He was in my face to fast. Wiped out most units in close combat. I couldn't shoot easily, there were 3 pieces of terrain per 1x1 square. At least 1 LOS blocking piece per 2x2 square.

Play to the mission. Stop playing Eternal war. Tau are terrible at capturing objectives.

Yoyoyo,
If you're just going to ignore everyone's points and insuinate things about people, I think it's best you go on the ignore list. Clearly you aren't interested in a debate but instead some pseudo intellectual measuring contest.

First time I've ever had to use that in all my years on any forum. I suppose that's an accomplishment.


Martel,
I would be interested in what you own as well.

Martel732 wrote:

 Sidstyler wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
BA are fast. Faster than any other marine chapter, actually, even the White Scars. I can get an entire list into my opponent's deployment zone with two movement phases. It's disgusting that this is not fast enough against Tau in general.

What's disgusting to me is that most people won't be happy until they can be in assault with a Tau army on turn one. People are going to cry if Tau get to shoot at all.

They always fething have, too.

As long as Tau can come close to tabling another army with one turn of shooting, the crying is justified.

eh...yeah. That's fair minded. Just kidding.

 Mulletdude wrote:
That relic jump pack does wonders for making sure units stick on the board and don't get intercepted by that s8ap2 blast. Last game I played against Tau with my blood angels I won. I used DC in a spartan with ceramite, 10 strong sanguinary guard with Dante and a Priest w/ relic jump pack, 2x fragioso dreads in pods, and some tac squads in pods w/ heavy flamer. The tau list had missilesides with buffmander, riptide, pathfinders, kroot, firewarriors, and other bits and bobs. It did not have a ghostkeel or stormsurge.

Sounds as though you did a good job of exploiting Tau weaknesses against a pretty friendly Tau list. From what you've described, your opponent wasn't playing anything close to what someone might call competitive. You're absolutely right about the effectiveness of the Spartan, outside of Hammerhead railguns there is almost nothing in the Tau army that can even dent the front armour of a ceramite Spartan. It's expensive but it will ensure you get your deathstar to where it needs to be.

Almost all Tau shooting is highly reliant on its markerlights to be of any use. Most armies have tools capable of removing markerlights from the board enmasse. People talk about the riptide have T6 5W 2+/5+/5++ and complain it's tough but seem to be oblivious to the fact that it can neutered by removing the markerlights. It's not a 225 pt mosterous creature with S8 AP2 large blast that ignores cover. It needs other unit's synergy to ignore cover. It's like saying Khorne Hounds are OP because they can be Invisible, or that they are too tough and should be nerfed because they can be invisible.

Asura Varuna wrote:

 Mulletdude wrote:
That relic jump pack does wonders for making sure units stick on the board and don't get intercepted by that s8ap2 blast. Last game I played against Tau with my blood angels I won. I used DC in a spartan with ceramite, 10 strong sanguinary guard with Dante and a Priest w/ relic jump pack, 2x fragioso dreads in pods, and some tac squads in pods w/ heavy flamer. The tau list had missilesides with buffmander, riptide, pathfinders, kroot, firewarriors, and other bits and bobs. It did not have a ghostkeel or stormsurge.

Sounds as though you did a good job of exploiting Tau weaknesses against a pretty friendly Tau list. From what you've described, your opponent wasn't playing anything close to what someone might call competitive. You're absolutely right about the effectiveness of the Spartan, outside of Hammerhead railguns there is almost nothing in the Tau army that can even dent the front armour of a ceramite Spartan. It's expensive but it will ensure you get your deathstar to where it needs to be.

Almost all Tau shooting is highly reliant on its markerlights to be of any use. Most armies have tools capable of removing markerlights from the board enmasse. People talk about the riptide have T6 5W 2+/5+/5++ and complain it's tough but seem to be oblivious to the fact that it can neutered by removing the markerlights. It's not a 225 pt mosterous creature with S8 AP2 large blast that ignores cover. It needs other unit's synergy to ignore cover. It's like saying Khorne Hounds are OP because they can be Invisible, or that they are too tough and should be nerfed because they can be invisible.

THIS GUY 100%.

Kill the marker lights. 5 man pathfinder squad has 5 wounds, T3 and 5+ armor.

Alo: Never take Pathfinders as Markerlight Caddies.

Akiasura wrote:
If you're just going to ignore everyone's points and insinuate things about people, I think it's best you go on the ignore list. Clearly you aren't interested in a debate but instead some pseudo intellectual measuring contest.

First time I've ever had to use that in all my years on any forum. I suppose that's an accomplishment.

LOL

You need to grow some thicker skin Aki.

Make good points and I'll prop you, I don't have a fragile ego and I don't hold grudges.

Naaris wrote:
This thread is ridiculous. Mods please close this.

Martel, If you don't want to play BA because you lose all the time, then give up on them. Don't sell them because you still love them. Shelve the army until the BA's get a new codex.
As a side note, Have you even posted everything you own for BA? Perhaps people can help your lists if they knew what you had.

Next, Martel, Like others have said, you seem to complain a lot but don't seem to want to update your models, play style or tactics.

We have a tau player in our FLGS who bought a whole blood angels army and loves playing them. HE HAS ALSO BOUGHT more models for the army. AND HE WINS, against other armies that are power armies.

HOW? MSU. Drops 9 drop pods with meltas, plasma and flamers. and uses LOS blocking cover to his advantage. Ignores most tau armor. Ignores MCs or ties them up in combat.


Lastly. What kind of terrain do you play on? If you can't seemingly do anything because you are getting shot off the board in turn 1, you do not have enough terrain for this game. Or you're really bad at deployment.

I play tau. loved tau from DOW games. they were my first army. the first year of gaming was done in my basement against my friend. He was also new and gravitated towards chaos and tyrannids.

I lost a lot of games. far more than i ever won. Why? Lots of Terrain, MSU and SPEED! I had too many things to shoot at. He was in my face to fast. Wiped out most units in close combat. I couldn't shoot easily, there were 3 pieces of terrain per 1x1 square. At least 1 LOS blocking piece per 2x2 square.

Play to the mission. Stop playing Eternal war. Tau are terrible at capturing objectives.

When this individual loads up 9 drop pods full of BA, does he know he's playing Tau? Because that list sounds like suicide against say, GK.

Asura Varuna wrote:
You're absolutely right about the effectiveness of the Spartan, outside of Hammerhead railguns there is almost nothing in the Tau army that can even dent the front armour of a ceramite Spartan. It's expensive but it will ensure you get your deathstar to where it needs to be.

Well, S9 AP2 Ordnance isn't exactly terrible. Plus these days you're potentially looking at D-Strength missiles too if a Stormsurge is kicking around.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Martel732 wrote:
When this individual loads up 9 drop pods full of BA, does he know he's playing Tau? Because that list sounds like suicide against say, GK.

As you said yourself Martel, it's all about picking your problems. If you want to defeat Tau, you are going to have to make adjustments.

I think I'd rather lose to Tau and keep doing okay against GK. If that's the choice I'm having to make. I think that drop pods for BA are a mistake in general, because it's not taking advantage of fast vehicles or furious charge.

Why does everyone care about this? It's absolutely useless to argue about. I've read both blood angel and tau codexes and the conclusion is that GW is gonna change the rules as they see fit.

Blitzbringer wrote:
Why does everyone care about this?

We have nothing better to do.

Martel732 wrote:
I don't hate them because of anime. I hate unkillable models with AP2 ignore cover blast templates.

^^ This !!!

Martel732 wrote:
I think I'd rather lose to Tau and keep doing okay against GK. If that's the choice I'm having to make. I think that drop pods for BA are a mistake in general, because it's not taking advantage of fast vehicles or furious charge.

I'm not sure i really see that.

What is all this nonsense about tau being terrible at capturing objectives? Riptides are great at it even though they don't need to be. Devilfish are really hard to kill and objective secured to boot - kind like a cheaper waveserpent. Suits move quickly...you can make drone chains out of your immobile units to cap points. Deep strike is an option. Essentially the only immobile units in the tau army are broadsides and every army has units like that and they aren't called "terrible at capping objectives" They don't have 20 objective secured scatter bikes but dang - everyone looks immobile compared to that crap.

 Jancoran wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
I think I'd rather lose to Tau and keep doing okay against GK. If that's the choice I'm having to make. I think that drop pods for BA are a mistake in general, because it's not taking advantage of fast vehicles or furious charge.

I'm not sure i really see that.

Perhaps because you don't play BA.

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Sidstyler wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
BA are fast. Faster than any other marine chapter, actually, even the White Scars. I can get an entire list into my opponent's deployment zone with two movement phases. It's disgusting that this is not fast enough against Tau in general.

What's disgusting to me is that most people won't be happy until they can be in assault with a Tau army on turn one. People are going to cry if Tau get to shoot at all.

They always fething have, too.

While true, Tau shouldn't get to turn the Assault phase into a second Shooting phase.

You mean the one army wide buff that Tau have lol? Sure just remove that too

Honestly vehicles suck this edition unless they're a SH. The fast vehicles are cool and fluffly, but ultimately bad because the only fast vehicles are rhino chassis. The chassis suffers from really wide side arcs and av11 on those arcs no matter which variant you get. Furious Charge is a joke and will never be that useful. All the good deathstars rely on high base attacks and strength (looking at you, wolves), so they can get away with multi-charging without losing much of anything. Trying to build a list to take advantage of the BA's special attributes is building a list to fail, I'm afraid.

The best thing I've found is to use the standouts in the codex and try to rely on their strength to get ahead. DC got nerfed from 5th to 7th, so I don't tend to run them (JP marines are bad, JP DC aren't that much better). Furioso's are the best unit in the codex because they can threaten a lot with their frag cannon (everything). Don't be tempted by Frag/Flamer on them, stick with the melta. Sang Guard are good too, but only with a Priest and Dante, then the unit ends up being some 700 points and takes up too large a chunk of your army. Honestly, the scariest BA list you can make @ 1850 is probably 10 Furioso's in pods with Frag/Melta and 2 libbys.

" Don't be tempted by Frag/Flamer on them, stick with the melta.

Go all templates all the time. Single meltas are crap.