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2016/10/12 17:41:19
Subject: Daemon Primarch Magnus revealed (Confirmed)
AncientSkarbrand wrote: It seems like they like overpricing chaos LOW's. The cost of a wraithknight is quite frankly ridiculous and i don't expect them to give chaos the same treatment with magnus.
I don't want them to either, as that would make him an auto include and then we would start getting the eldar treatment from other players. At the same time he has to be priced competitively or not alot of people will buy the model. As was said, he can't be too much better than a LOC without being very costly and very durable. The synergy with the grimoire and other durability boosting methods will also need to be considered by the design team.
The worst thing in my eyes would be giving him a warlord trait or something that boosts all thousand son units in the army, because then you will rarely see a tsons list without him. A unit like Magnus would be hard to write rules for, trying to hit that sweet spot while still making him as obscenely powerful as is expected by the community.
I feel like eldar has been 'that army' for far longer than that they have had a under priced overpowered wraith knight. Giving chaos 1 good awesome unit (that they can only field one of and not multiples mind you) would not make them eldar level of busted. I also think that if they price him semi competitively at around 500 ish, give or take, he would still not be an auto include in all armies. I also think that if we eventually get all 4 primarchs, and they have a special rule where you can only ever field one of them, it would be a nice diversity. Like yeah most 1850 chaos armies would include a daemon primarch, but they can still choose from 4, and they would all be very different. It wouldnt be like knight titans and wraith knights which are pretty much the same in every army.
I kinda disagree on you with the thousand sons thing. I feel like all daemon primarchs should have something like 'iconic leader, units with the mark of chaos that this primarch has gain X bonus'. Yeah all Tsons armies would use him, but really, who here who plays Tsons wouldnt want to play the daemon primarch of the legion?
A problem could arise, however, if whatever rule the daemon primarch grants his legion becomes the only viable way to play the primarch. Like yeah anyone playing Tsons would probably want to play Magnus, BUT what if someone wants to play Magnus but not necessarily all Tsons, but his special rules make him only really work in a Tsons army? I get that's fluffy, but it will sell less models imo (because I know for myself I'm not buying a whole Tsons army to play him, and I'd really like to play him).
EDIT: And what I mean by that is it would be awesome for him to have some kind of small rule for 1k Sons, but I hope his whole ruleset doesn't revolve around them.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/10/12 17:43:54
2016/10/12 17:44:40
Subject: Daemon Primarch Magnus revealed (Confirmed)
AncientSkarbrand wrote: It seems like they like overpricing chaos LOW's. The cost of a wraithknight is quite frankly ridiculous and i don't expect them to give chaos the same treatment with magnus.
I don't want them to either, as that would make him an auto include and then we would start getting the eldar treatment from other players. At the same time he has to be priced competitively or not alot of people will buy the model. As was said, he can't be too much better than a LOC without being very costly and very durable. The synergy with the grimoire and other durability boosting methods will also need to be considered by the design team.
The worst thing in my eyes would be giving him a warlord trait or something that boosts all thousand son units in the army, because then you will rarely see a tsons list without him. A unit like Magnus would be hard to write rules for, trying to hit that sweet spot while still making him as obscenely powerful as is expected by the community.
I feel like eldar has been 'that army' for far longer than that they have had a under priced overpowered wraith knight. Giving chaos 1 good awesome unit (that they can only field one of and not multiples mind you) would not make them eldar level of busted. I also think that if they price him semi competitively at around 500 ish, give or take, he would still not be an auto include in all armies. I also think that if we eventually get all 4 primarchs, and they have a special rule where you can only ever field one of them, it would be a nice diversity. Like yeah most 1850 chaos armies would include a daemon primarch, but they can still choose from 4, and they would all be very different. It wouldnt be like knight titans and wraith knights which are pretty much the same in every army.
I kinda disagree on you with the thousand sons thing. I feel like all daemon primarchs should have something like 'iconic leader, units with the mark of chaos that this primarch has gain X bonus'. Yeah all Tsons armies would use him, but really, who here who plays Tsons wouldnt want to play the daemon primarch of the legion?
A problem could arise, however, if whatever rule the daemon primarch grants his legion becomes the only viable way to play the primarch. Like yeah anyone playing Tsons would probably want to play Magnus, BUT what if someone wants to play Magnus but not necessarily all Tsons, but his special rules make him only really work in a Tsons army? I get that's fluffy, but it will sell less models imo (because I know for myself I'm not buying a whole Tsons army to play him, and I'd really like to play him).
Thats why I said any unit that shares the mark of chaos with that primarch. You wouldnt have to field tsons perse, any tzeentch unit or chaos unit with mark of tzeentch would work. And it would be a benefit for those other units not for magnus himself. He would be the same power house stats wise. Ofc there would be a point premium for this special rule but he will still have the statline of a daemon primarch, and some crazy psychic power shenanigans like all tzeentch psykers.
I dont think any unit costing 500 or more points would be considered viable just because it buffs one of the weakest units in the game
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/10/12 17:47:30
2016/10/12 17:44:50
Subject: Daemon Primarch Magnus revealed (Confirmed)
ekwatts wrote: How dare GW produce new miniatures for us.
How very dare they.
Seriously, they introduce something like a stormtalon, or thunderwolves or what not and these guys gripe because it wasn't there before. They give us something new that is supposed to be in the story and they are destroying their suspension of disbelief and shattering the precious fluff. Seriously, nothing about 40k fluff is remotely original, makes me pause that so many people put it so high up on a pedestal like it were Shakespeare and we were about to change the ending to Hamlet here.
So according to you, fans of the setting should accept any changes GW deems appropriate?
Yeah, or don't. Forge your own narrative if you don't like the one the *creators of the universe* are forging for you.
Yeah, that's the cute answer, but honestly, it is not easy to find players that will join your alternate, unofficial universe.
Then I guess you're stuck playing the universe they make. Others do the aforementioned making their army from their alternate, unofficial universe, then playing against official-universe ones. Not everyone is going to have the models that ruin the fluff for you anyway. Don't really know what to tell you, other than accept it or not, whatever changes they make happen. If it's that upsetting, look for those people that will join your alternate universe. They may not be easy to find, but they still might exist. It's both a cute answer and the real answer, too!
Be sour all you want, the future looks SWEET
I can also simply stop playing GW games and chose another game. Dropped WHFB when it turned into the travesty that is AOS, and will do the same if they transform 40k in such a way that I no longer like it. Not saying that the retunr of the primarchs will necessarly make me drop 40k, but it is a possibility. especially if they start to put too much emphasis toward them.
lost and damned log
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/519978.page#6525039
2016/10/12 18:04:26
Subject: Re:Daemon Primarch Magnus revealed (Confirmed)
ekwatts wrote: How dare GW produce new miniatures for us.
How very dare they.
Seriously, they introduce something like a stormtalon, or thunderwolves or what not and these guys gripe because it wasn't there before. They give us something new that is supposed to be in the story and they are destroying their suspension of disbelief and shattering the precious fluff. Seriously, nothing about 40k fluff is remotely original, makes me pause that so many people put it so high up on a pedestal like it were Shakespeare and we were about to change the ending to Hamlet here.
So according to you, fans of the setting should accept any changes GW deems appropriate?
Yeah, or don't. Forge your own narrative if you don't like the one the *creators of the universe* are forging for you.
Yeah, that's the cute answer, but honestly, it is not easy to find players that will join your alternate, unofficial universe.
Then I guess you're stuck playing the universe they make. Others do the aforementioned making their army from their alternate, unofficial universe, then playing against official-universe ones. Not everyone is going to have the models that ruin the fluff for you anyway. Don't really know what to tell you, other than accept it or not, whatever changes they make happen. If it's that upsetting, look for those people that will join your alternate universe. They may not be easy to find, but they still might exist. It's both a cute answer and the real answer, too!
Be sour all you want, the future looks SWEET
I can also simply stop playing GW games and chose another game. Dropped WHFB when it turned into the travesty that is AOS, and will do the same if they transform 40k in such a way that I no longer like it. Not saying that the retunr of the primarchs will necessarly make me drop 40k, but it is a possibility. especially if they start to put too much emphasis toward them.
Okay. Not like it matters - for every person who doesn't like the direction GW is moving in, there seem to be many who do.
If you drop out, just please don't make an asinine YouTube video of you burning your army. It gives the community a bad look.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
tyrannosaurus wrote: END TIMES for 40K! Sell huge overdesigned kits! Release limited edition army books that will only be useful for a few months! Destroy the universe and rebrand everything with trademarkable names!
What a lovely example of fear-mongering baseless information! Now look here children, you can safely ignore anyone spouting this nonsense until we see it for ourselve(or until Sad Panda says so, same thing.)
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/10/12 18:06:29
2016/10/12 18:06:52
Subject: Daemon Primarch Magnus revealed (Confirmed)
AncientSkarbrand wrote: It seems like they like overpricing chaos LOW's. The cost of a wraithknight is quite frankly ridiculous and i don't expect them to give chaos the same treatment with magnus.
I don't want them to either, as that would make him an auto include and then we would start getting the eldar treatment from other players. At the same time he has to be priced competitively or not alot of people will buy the model. As was said, he can't be too much better than a LOC without being very costly and very durable. The synergy with the grimoire and other durability boosting methods will also need to be considered by the design team.
The worst thing in my eyes would be giving him a warlord trait or something that boosts all thousand son units in the army, because then you will rarely see a tsons list without him. A unit like Magnus would be hard to write rules for, trying to hit that sweet spot while still making him as obscenely powerful as is expected by the community.
I feel like eldar has been 'that army' for far longer than that they have had a under priced overpowered wraith knight. Giving chaos 1 good awesome unit (that they can only field one of and not multiples mind you) would not make them eldar level of busted. I also think that if they price him semi competitively at around 500 ish, give or take, he would still not be an auto include in all armies. I also think that if we eventually get all 4 primarchs, and they have a special rule where you can only ever field one of them, it would be a nice diversity. Like yeah most 1850 chaos armies would include a daemon primarch, but they can still choose from 4, and they would all be very different. It wouldnt be like knight titans and wraith knights which are pretty much the same in every army.
I kinda disagree on you with the thousand sons thing. I feel like all daemon primarchs should have something like 'iconic leader, units with the mark of chaos that this primarch has gain X bonus'. Yeah all Tsons armies would use him, but really, who here who plays Tsons wouldnt want to play the daemon primarch of the legion?
A problem could arise, however, if whatever rule the daemon primarch grants his legion becomes the only viable way to play the primarch. Like yeah anyone playing Tsons would probably want to play Magnus, BUT what if someone wants to play Magnus but not necessarily all Tsons, but his special rules make him only really work in a Tsons army? I get that's fluffy, but it will sell less models imo (because I know for myself I'm not buying a whole Tsons army to play him, and I'd really like to play him).
Thats why I said any unit that shares the mark of chaos with that primarch. You wouldnt have to field tsons perse, any tzeentch unit or chaos unit with mark of tzeentch would work. And it would be a benefit for those other units not for magnus himself. He would be the same power house stats wise. Ofc there would be a point premium for this special rule but he will still have the statline of a daemon primarch, and some crazy psychic power shenanigans like all tzeentch psykers.
I dont think any unit costing 500 or more points would be considered viable just because it buffs one of the weakest units in the game
I know it would be really cool and everything, i just struggle to see a way it could be done that benefits said units in a way that helps them all roughly the same amount, and thus i see it killing list diversity if it happens. If its better to take x with magnus and better to take magnus with x, most lists will contain magnus and x.
I guess it might be viable if it's a bubble effect or something. Also i am thinking thousand sons will be changed or updated along with this. They're too far gone to fix with a primarch's special rule.
If they don't fix thousand sons, and i can't field Magnus bound without them... I won't buy him and i won't buy a 2500 point thousand sons army to go along with him. If they do fix them however... Gw pretty much has the rights to my wallet.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2016/10/12 18:44:56
7500 pts Chaos Daemons
2016/10/12 18:52:57
Subject: Daemon Primarch Magnus revealed (Confirmed)
Fayric wrote: I think the "red" part has more to do with the egyptian theme rather than tzeench.
The common egyptian was depicted with red skin, if I recall correctly. That would fit with magnus tanned "coppery" skin in a way beeing red.
Also the god seth was depicted with a donkey brush of red hair,
(And Seths battles with Horus is also kind of interresting; basicly, while the true god ruler, Osiris, is reduced to a be corpse on a throne passively channeling his soul power, there is a great civil war between Seth and Horus for the reign of the land.)
Nope, his skin is/was always bright red, an unnatural red, it wasn't hyperbole or exaggeration. He is the color he is supposed to be -
It wasn't always. His description in the Epic (Space Marine) game said he was called Magnus the Red because of his red hair. And he was a cyclops. The red skin and two eye sockets I think was created when they started expanding on the Horus Heresy probably for that card game they did set in the heresy. A lot of artwork was created for that game for things that didn't have much artwork before.
And I'd have to get out my old books to find where, but I recall his skin being described as coppery, with red hair and beard. It was changed at some point.
See, the good thing about Magnus - he actually can look how he wants, and he can look different for you, you and me. If you want to paint him blue with red hair, do it. If you want to model flames and paint him yellow (you could even add brimstone horrors to the flames, bet that would look awesome) - do it. If you want to paint him black with red hair and pink armour, go for it. Magnus is really great ^.^
I will paint his skin as an endless sunset and his armour as a mirroring rainbow. His chest horns will be spiraling candycanes of purple and white. But he will only look like that to me.
Promethius wrote: What I really want to know is which loyalist will appear to challenge Magnus? Sad Panda says not Russ. If it's Dorn that explains why they went to the trouble of explaining 'The Last Wall Protocol' in the Beast Arises books and had Vulkan drop the 'I'll tell Dorn when I see him' line
I lost my gak with excitement with all the Vulkan action, and with this Traitor Primarch and the rumours of a Loyalist one, that line now seems more than meets the eye. Heck, maybe it's Vulkan himself who will show up.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2016/10/12 19:52:29
"Fear is freedom! Subjugation is liberation! Contradiction is truth! These are the truths of this world! Surrender to these truths, you pigs in human clothing!" - Satsuki Kiryuin, Kill la Kill
2016/10/12 19:57:26
Subject: Daemon Primarch Magnus revealed (Confirmed)
BobtheInquisitor wrote:They've already ruined the setting for me. The Newcrons fluff overwrote the history I found most compelling in the setting and sapped my motivation for three of my army projects. Then the Tyranid Narvhal codex made my favorite faction...kind of stupid and out of character. Yes, I still have the old books, but that doesn't make the fluff I loved not feel dead. And that was a minor change that many fans don't believe actually affected the setting. If GW advances the timeline, they run a huge risk of killing their customers' interest. If the reward is just selling us a few more big models, well they were doing that anyway.
Automatically Appended Next Post: It would be like making a sequel to Star Wars where everything the characters fought for had deteriorated offscreen to a handful of easily-destroyed planets and negative character growth, and the villains were just the scrapings at the bottom of the barrel. Surely, you can see how permanently damaging the setting by removing the "happy ever after" and installing mediocrity could ruin a franchise?
Or make a billion dollars. Maybe that one.
So do you like your Tyranids with metal guns, machinery, personality and individual character? If not then you have nothing to complain about.
Hive Fleet Horror is the definitive Tyranid story to me. This was before they were the Hungry Hungry Space Bugs. Old Rogue Trader era fluff had an unfinished quality to it, but I love the Zoats and Deathwing-era genestealer fluff. Tyranids always had individuals, just like Necrons, but they weren't the focus the way space marine heroes were...until 5th edition and later. I dislike Tyranids who only care about mindless nom-noms, who use some stupid third form of FTL that reduces their speed/menace and connection to the setting. I feel that Xenology was where the fluff peaked, with some of the bleakest tone yet the most glittering mysteries. Since then, the fluff has degraded.
It's the same issue the old ork fans have with the 'new' fungus Orks. The background is different, and for some people that difference is enough to make them stop caring.
A lot of fans like the post-5th fluff, and that's fine, but it is to ally very different from what came before. If the timeline advances, all the people who like the current fluff might find themselves cast as the grumpy old grognards who just don't get the new and 'improved' setting. It is a risk that GW takes if they make any changes.
And while it might be neat to find out what Leman Russ has been up to, what Cypher wants, and the answers to all the other plot hooks left open in the setting, I suspect the long term effect on the setting will be like Lost's final episode's long term effect on that series' fan base. "Yes, I remember obsessing for years. No, I don't need to rewatch the show. No, I don't want to talk about it."
I see your point now. Thanks for explaining. I don't get the "Lost" part since I never seen one episode.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/10/12 19:58:18
Agies Grimm:The "Learn to play, bro" mentality is mostly just a way for someone to try to shame you by implying that their metaphorical nerd-wiener is bigger than yours. Which, ironically, I think nerds do even more vehemently than jocks.
Everything is made up and the points don't matter. 40K or Who's Line is it Anyway?
Auticus wrote: Or in summation: its ok to exploit shoddy points because those are rules and gamers exist to find rules loopholes (they are still "legal"), but if the same force can be composed without structure, it emotionally feels "wrong".
2016/10/12 20:16:32
Subject: Daemon Primarch Magnus revealed (Confirmed)
It will be interesting to see how they scale a loyalist primarch, or what ridiculous level of base shenanigans they'll need to have them compare to the demon ones.
There’s a difference between having a hobby and being a narcissist.
2016/10/12 20:21:29
Subject: Daemon Primarch Magnus revealed (Confirmed)
I would expect loyalists to be in line with the FW sizing... Magnus was always the largest physically, but he was not the 30 ft tall beast the Daemon Magnus is. I think you can thank the warp for this particular model's stature and not a change in general scale of a Primarch.
MajorTom11 wrote: I would expect loyalists to be in line with the FW sizing... Magnus was always the largest physically, but he was not the 30 ft tall beast the Daemon Magnus is. I think you can thank the warp for this particular model's stature and not a change in general scale of a Primarch.
I really hope so, thought I honestly think I'd vomit if they were to release a Dorn mini that featured that ridiculous amount of base whooshery they tack on to the sigmarines. I've never prayed so hard for data corruption as I do for those particular CAD files.
There’s a difference between having a hobby and being a narcissist.
2016/10/12 20:41:02
Subject: Daemon Primarch Magnus revealed (Confirmed)
Promethius wrote: What I really want to know is which loyalist will appear to challenge Magnus? Sad Panda says not Russ. If it's Dorn that explains why they went to the trouble of explaining 'The Last Wall Protocol' in the Beast Arises books and had Vulkan drop the 'I'll tell Dorn when I see him' line
I lost my gak with excitement with all the Vulkan action, and with this Traitor Primarch and the rumours of a Loyalist one, that line now seems more than meets the eye. Heck, maybe it's Vulkan himself who will show up.
Ok, I'll qualify my previous opposition to loyalist primarchs returning. I'm ok with it as long as it's just Vulkan. If it's Russ or Guilliman I'll throw up in my mouth.
2016/10/12 20:50:08
Subject: Daemon Primarch Magnus revealed (Confirmed)
Alpharius wrote: I hope it is all Primarchs returning - well, all the ones that actually can.
There are, sadly, some that are gone for good...
What's to stop them from returning the dead ones? It's not like returning from the dead hasn't already happened in the 40k universe.
We could get sanguinious resurrected as a demon. Roboute emerges from stasis only to immediately start twirling his moustache and it was alpharias all along! Roboute is tied to the train tracks and the ultra marines have to hurry to save him!
There’s a difference between having a hobby and being a narcissist.
2016/10/12 21:35:44
Subject: Daemon Primarch Magnus revealed (Confirmed)
Alpharius wrote: I hope it is all Primarchs returning - well, all the ones that actually can.
There are, sadly, some that are gone for good...
What's to stop them from returning the dead ones? It's not like returning from the dead hasn't already happened in the 40k universe.
We could get sanguinious resurrected as a demon. Roboute emerges from stasis only to immediately start twirling his moustache and it was alpharias all along! Roboute is tied to the train tracks and the ultra marines have to hurry to save him!
Or a Frankenstein Ferrus Manus.
2016/10/12 22:54:49
Subject: Re:Daemon Primarch Magnus revealed (Confirmed)
Konrad and Fernus come back as ghosts? A squad of guys all claiming to be alpharias? Alpharias can soul transfer into new bodies like the undead legion from dark souls?
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2016/10/13 02:31:10
2016/10/12 23:52:28
Subject: Daemon Primarch Magnus revealed (Confirmed)
While I am excited for Magnus, I'm more excited for this seeming to pave the way for the individual traitor legions getting some love. IF it happens, demon primarch Perturabo and the IW will be when GW gets me.
Vorradis 75th "Crimson Cavaliers" 8.7k
The enemies of Mankind may employ dark sciences or alien weapons beyond Humanity's ken, but such deviance comes to naught in the face of honest human intolerance back by a sufficient number of guns.
2016/10/13 05:23:20
Subject: Re:Daemon Primarch Magnus revealed (Confirmed)
casvalremdeikun wrote: Give me Dorn with a big power fist in place of the hand he lost and some kickass super-bolter, and I will be happy.
I'd be ecstatic if we got a plastic Dorn. I'm thinking since my chapter is a Fists successor I could paint Dorn up in his IF colors and have a banner with my chapter badge draped over his left shoulder to mark him out as part of my army.
Damn, Magnus has me excited if only for the faint possibility of Dorn in the future...
2016/10/13 05:31:58
Subject: Daemon Primarch Magnus revealed (Confirmed)
I thought Sad Panda... 'suggested' it would be Magnus/Angron/Fulgrim for team evil and Guilliman/Leman Russ for team Imperium?
At least to start with...
Though Dorn in a centurion suit would amuse me.
warboss wrote: Is there a permanent stickied thread for Chaos players to complain every time someone/anyone gets models or rules besides them? If not, there should be.
2016/10/13 06:35:11
Subject: Daemon Primarch Magnus revealed (Confirmed)
Jehan-reznor wrote: Fulgrim will be delicious, with his band of cenobytes, "I have such sights to show you!"
But Dorn has no Hands!
He has one hand. He only lost hand, and that hand is enshrined by the chapter. So he could very well be kicking ass and taking names with Storm's Teeth stuffed in the stump.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Crazyterran wrote: I thought Sad Panda... 'suggested' it would be Magnus/Angron/Fulgrim for team evil and Guilliman/Leman Russ for team Imperium?
At least to start with...
Though Dorn in a centurion suit would amuse me.
I want HQs in Centurion Suits.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/10/13 06:36:54
Jehan-reznor wrote: Fulgrim will be delicious, with his band of cenobytes, "I have such sights to show you!"
But Dorn has no Hands!
He has one hand. He only lost hand, and that hand is enshrined by the chapter. So he could very well be kicking ass and taking names with Storm's Teeth stuffed in the stump.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Crazyterran wrote: I thought Sad Panda... 'suggested' it would be Magnus/Angron/Fulgrim for team evil and Guilliman/Leman Russ for team Imperium?
At least to start with...
Though Dorn in a centurion suit would amuse me.
I want HQs in Centurion Suits.
I would like Marine (or any HQ, really) to be allowed to use that Bs5and actually take a heavy or ranged weapon. Why can't my captain of the 9th take a Grav Cannon and now down things himself? Or a terminator captain choose to use a cyclone missile launcher?
warboss wrote: Is there a permanent stickied thread for Chaos players to complain every time someone/anyone gets models or rules besides them? If not, there should be.
2016/10/13 06:49:00
Subject: Daemon Primarch Magnus revealed (Confirmed)
Crazyterran wrote: I thought Sad Panda... 'suggested' it would be Magnus/Angron/Fulgrim for team evil and Guilliman/Leman Russ for team Imperium?
At least to start with...
Though Dorn in a centurion suit would amuse me.
No. I only know of one other not-FW primarch in the pipeline. He'll be "Team Imperium" and part of setting up the story for 8th.
There may be more I simply haven't heard about, but as with Daemonkin, I can assure you that there is no plan to go through the four Chaos Gods with symmetrical releases. That's not how the 40K story evolution for the next year or so (from the tiny bits I know) is set up.
2016/10/13 07:03:32
Subject: Daemon Primarch Magnus revealed (Confirmed)
Can we get Kroot someday? If you ever talk with them you should let them know there is demand for a Kroot army release of some kind. Even if its a small size one like DW, GSC, or Harlequins. P.S Any Kroot release should have heavy Predator inspiration.
With the Sisters players actually getting a release I'm taking every opportunity to try and get word to GW to tease or consider some cool Kroot. There is a very real possibility they will do it.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/10/13 07:04:44
5250 pts
2500 pts 
Vorradis 75th "Crimson Cavaliers" 8.7k
