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Ravenwing punch....what do you do? Typhoon, nephilim, attack bikes or just melta bikers?
Hard to justify the typhoon when I can get a twin Las/ML dread for same points. Really thinking of making a RW shooty dread, just to give my list some punch.

Ravenwing are in a bad spot right now. They are super expensive for what they bring; whenever we get our actual codex it should fix that issue somewhat. Right now the best Ravenwing units are probably the Darkshroud, the flyers (especially the Dark Talon), the LS Vengeance, and possibly Black Knights. Melta bikes are not necessarily a bad choice either. I'm starting to regret putting Grav on my bikes, but it was actually good in 7th. I can easily replace the guns, I suppose, since most of my bikes aren't painted yet.

I'm playing my Ravenwing as Raven Guard for the huge price drop. 27 points is pretty good for the statline and double bolter and chainsword.

And I'm trying a captain or maybe chapter master with jump pack and relic blade.

Don't really want to play them as some thing else, just would like to see them have more punch than they do. A RW dread might be decent although not exactly fitting the fast strike status of the bikers. They definitely need a boost in the new codex though.

I don't think ravenwing is "bad" right now.
Sure, they've gotten worse. But they still deliver a mean punch.

In my last match I had a balanced army of greenwing, deathwing and ravenwing. (2 Razorbacks + Tacs, some Deathwing Knights and a unit of Black Knights with Apothecary, Darkshroud and Sammy on Corvex.

Darkshroud + Apothecary makes the unit very tanky.
The plasma talons still hurt badly, and Sammy is just a beast.
What hurt most was the nerf to the blacknights melee capability, but Sammy made up for that.
S x2 + reroll everything is just sick. He single handedly shredded a deamon prince in melee, the black knights just helped getting rid of a few hitpoints.

They might not be competitive in a tournament point of view, but they are not "bad".


###############

Why is the Dark Talon so good?
I dont see why the Nephelim isn't better. (Twin HB + Avenger Mega Bolter = 16 Shots with greater Strength, + 2 Missiles vs 12-24 Bolter shots + rift canon)

Aeri wrote:

They might not be competitive in a tournament point of view, but they are not "bad".

in this context, that's exactly what "bad" means.

You also described a mixed DA army which completely mitigates some of the inherent weaknesses. Razorback with twin Las? Cool.
I'm talking pure Ravenwing. Melta is tough to use since you have to get so close to use it and your bikers are too expensive to be expendable (51pts for biker with meltagun).
I have a 1500pt matchup this Saturday vs Nids, so we'll see how they perform. At least I can now add Sammael at this point level.

So does anyone think we'll get a codex released with The Lion coming back?

Seems like a lot of people think he is in the front running to come back with Russ and I wondered if anyone on here may have heard some rumors?

I'm really hoping he does, and before Christmas haha but I think if he does it'll be sometime next year which sucks because I have to deploy to the middle east. I do think GW will deliver there : /

I would like to see the Lion returning, just to have someone oppose Guilleman in the fluff. It really gives DAs an opportunity to be different thematically. Most of all I'm looking for the new strategems that will hopefully make RW and DW more viable.

That's where I'm at to. It could make for an interesting plot line plus I'm curious to see what his buffs would be. He's supposed to be one of the best if not the best military tacticians out of all the primarchs and Dark Angels are supposed to be relentless. Maybe some kind of reserve/deep strike manipulation and not suffer the -1 to hit for heavy weapons? Or getting vengeful strike back?

Does anyone have any hopes/wishes/expectations on what kind of traits The Lion could have if they ever release him?

 ILegion wrote:
That's where I'm at to. It could make for an interesting plot line plus I'm curious to see what his buffs would be. He's supposed to be one of the best if not the best military tacticians out of all the primarchs and Dark Angels are supposed to be relentless. Maybe some kind of reserve/deep strike manipulation and not suffer the -1 to hit for heavy weapons? Or getting vengeful strike back?

Does anyone have any hopes/wishes/expectations on what kind of traits The Lion could have if they ever release him?

Well this is a tactics thread rather than a wishlisting thread, but I would kind of hope the Lion would get some of the same buffs as Azrael currently gets, and maybe give Azrael a different effect when the codex comes out. Azrael's helm is, after all, the Lion Helm, so maybe Lion should get the 4++ bubble that Azrael currently gets. Giving rerolls to hit and/or to wound is a given, and maybe instead of Guilliman's buff to all Imperial units and his CP recycling, Lion could maybe extend the rapid fire range of nearby weapons kind of like what Death Guard get or something. Or maybe allow plasma near him to not overheat, although I'm not sure what the fluff justification for that would be.

Hi everyone
So i'm trying to come up with a somewhat competitive and a fun list to play by mixing primaris models with DA and some IG, here is what i have so far:

Celestine
Azrael
Belial
5 terminators with assault cannon and powerfists
5 terminators with assault cannon and powerfists
Repulsor with a lascannon and a lastalon, onslaught gatling
darkshroud with heavy bolter
8 hellblasters with plasma incinerators
60 conscripts 3 squads of 20
comissar

List comes around 1850 pts running against girlyman gunline

Idea is to have 2 squads of conscripts sit on objectives in my deployment zone, while the azrael castle slowly advances towards the opponent supported by terminators deepstriking somewhere near opponent's objectives

3rd squad of conscripts is just an additional protection for the repulsor and hellblasters that will disembark on the first or second turn.

Celestine provides a 6+ invul for the conscripts and can be efficient in close combat , as soon as she dies i'm planning to resurrect her close to some objective


Any critique is welcome

Timur wrote:
Hi everyone
So i'm trying to come up with a somewhat competitive and a fun list to play by mixing primaris models with DA and some IG, here is what i have so far:

Celestine
Azrael
Belial
5 terminators with assault cannon and powerfists
5 terminators with assault cannon and powerfists
Repulsor with a lascannon and a lastalon, onslaught gatling
darkshroud with heavy bolter
8 hellblasters with plasma incinerators
60 conscripts 3 squads of 20
comissar

List comes around 1850 pts running against girlyman gunline

Idea is to have 2 squads of conscripts sit on objectives in my deployment zone, while the azrael castle slowly advances towards the opponent supported by terminators deepstriking somewhere near opponent's objectives

3rd squad of conscripts is just an additional protection for the repulsor and hellblasters that will disembark on the first or second turn.

Celestine provides a 6+ invul for the conscripts and can be efficient in close combat , as soon as she dies i'm planning to resurrect her close to some objective


Any critique is welcome

If you take out Celestine, the conscripts and the commissar and replace them with some Scouts you have a great list!

In all seriousness it should work well, and the salty tears of your opponents will be priceless. Azrael makes a great firebase and Belial can cause pure havoc with the Deathwing coming out of the teleportarium (or whatever its called). I find Watchers are points well spent for my Deathwing even if they only work once. They're dead cheap and your Deathwing are vulnerable to Smite Spam without them. A Deathwing Ancient would also be good, but something will have to go.

ps Make sure that Celestine, the conscripts and especially the Commissar have an "accident" after the battle if they seem too nosy.

I was thinking about taking scouts actually, but 5 man bolter scout squad costs 55 points whereas conscripts squad of 20 is 60, i'm thinking they are more efficient at holding objectives if paired with comissar. Sniper scouts dont seem to be very usefull from what i've read, you need to have alot of them to actually make any difference in the game like killing a character

Celestine has so much utility that its hard to drop her from the list, the ability to move,shoot,fight twice a turn or regain health is sick. She can move up to 24+2d6 that could very good for grabbing objectives or tying some squads in CC

Timur wrote:
I was thinking about taking scouts actually, but 5 man bolter scout squad costs 55 points whereas conscripts squad of 20 is 60, i'm thinking they are more efficient at holding objectives if paired with comissar. Sniper scouts dont seem to be very usefull from what i've read, you need to have alot of them to actually make any difference in the game like killing a character

Celestine has so much utility that its hard to drop her from the list, the ability to move,shoot,fight twice a turn or regain health is sick. She can move up to 24+2d6 that could very good for grabbing objectives or tying some squads in CC

I won't argue against Celestine's effectiveness, nor against the resilience of Conscripts with Commissars, but they are not Dark Angels.

A five-man Scout squad with Sniper Rifles may not kill a character in one volley, but they can certainly put the wounds on. In tourney play they softened up a Demon Prince for somebody else to kill, killed a painboy and a weirdboy. They are also my Conscript mitigation unit. Even when they don't kill a character they can influence where the characters go and they also draw fire - which is something!

Cheers

I like sniper scouts with a ML. I use one pretty frequently in lists.

I personally have steered away from Terminators. I cannot seem to make them work for me. They usually come down and put a decent dent in a cheaper unit then themselves (not making points back) then getting shot/charged off the board. But I have never fielded them en mass so there's that but from batreps I've watched not much different seems to occur.
Also in terms of tactical objectives they are far too slow.

Azrael and a Lieutenant Primaris is an amazing duo. If you haven't tried them together. Celestine is definitely a worthy include. I've teetered on wanting to try her in my list. But instead I took a Cullexus, Eversor and Callidus for tactical flexibility. But I've seen lists where they have best of all worlds assassins and Celestine lol.

One strategy I'm going to deploy, which I'm not sure why I haven't already, is to include Company Veterans because of a cool little rule they have where on a 2+ they can take a wound for a character. I'd keep them nice and cheap as an extra five wounds for Azrael.

To really make the Azrael+Lieutenant duo shine, put a Darkshroud near them for a -1 to hit vs. shooting. Your vehicles that are benefitting from Azzy's rerolls and 4++ are now going to have to make fewer of those 4++ saves. As for the sniper scouts, I've never had them do much for me, but then maybe I'm not using them right, or using enough of them. I'm wondering if maybe pairing a unit of those and a Vindicare Assassin could be a good strategy. I've tried it, and I love the Vindicare, but even he doesn't always do so hot.

I really have been thinking hard about getting Celestine into my lists. Aside from being a great model, she's crazy powerful! Not sure if it's worth including her Geminae Superia or not.

 ZergSmasher wrote:
To really make the Azrael+Lieutenant duo shine, put a Darkshroud near them for a -1 to hit vs. shooting. Your vehicles that are benefitting from Azzy's rerolls and 4++ are now going to have to make fewer of those 4++ saves. As for the sniper scouts, I've never had them do much for me, but then maybe I'm not using them right, or using enough of them. I'm wondering if maybe pairing a unit of those and a Vindicare Assassin could be a good strategy. I've tried it, and I love the Vindicare, but even he doesn't always do so hot.

I really have been thinking hard about getting Celestine into my lists. Aside from being a great model, she's crazy powerful! Not sure if it's worth including her Geminae Superia or not.

We have switched to playing tactical objectives in my meta so I find the scouts have been a good way for me to have a unit get to a far away objective, something out of reach for both my opponent and me. Really that's about it in terms of usefulness. Occasionally the ML helps but without the re-rolling (they are usually never close to Azzy) I never fully depend on it. But that out reach has been extremely helpful. But I've recently moved to tacticals and razorbacks as well as three assassins (callidus, cullexus and eversor) for mobility/distraction/outreach, so I've taken the snipers out of my most recent list. These units tend to be more useful. So you could totally be right.

In regards to Celestine, I think to be truly competitive she is kind've an auto-include. I don't have her model, but I've been running Ezekiel (who has been valuable no doubt) but he's near 150 which is the number I need to take Celestine. He is my placeholder as I've been on the fence. I've been trying to run a mostly mono dark angels list. And it's been working real well. But it does seems like the most logical move. Her speed alone and diversity in dmg types flamer awesome melee etc would make her worth it. There is no doubt. In my lists I would only include her but that's because I dont know how I'd fit in her geminae. But I'm not sure you will need them either.

 ZergSmasher wrote:

Noneisbackhere wrote:
Thanks for the tips guys!!
First let me say that i decided to go with:
Battalion+vanguard:
1xAzrael
1xPrimaris Lieutenent
1xBelial
2x 5intercessors- Stalker bolt rifles
1x 5tactical-plasma can
2x5 Reivers combat knifes
1x5 DW knights
2x Venerable Dreadnoughts twin las/CW/flamers

We rolled Cleanse and Capture and deployed in a bit of a bubble Azrael+PL+x2Venerable+1x5Intercessors.With some luck i seized so my 2xVenerables did some dmg on the Stormraven and my Reivers screened the whole bubble.Eventually i was a bit lucky with the Objectives and my Azrael bubble did awesome. I'm really impressed by the Reivers. Their close combat-2wounds are really brutal. Azrael was once more an outstanding presence with the Venerables killing the whole squad of Paladins +Apothecary. The only big threats Dreadknight was downed by my Reivers+Belial/Knights and Voldus bombed himself with Perils

Interesting list for sure. Why the Stalker rifles on the Intercessors? Reading the profiles for the weapons, I'd usually go with regular Bolt Rifles every time myself. Good to hear that Reivers are good; I have yet to try mine out. The models are cool, at least. Do you feel that DW Knights really helped you in this game, or do you think you might have done just as well or even better with regular DW termies? My instinct always says never to deepstrike Knights as they will fail their charge more often than not even with a command reroll.

After 3-4 games against Grey Knights i can now tell for sure that Primaris are doing really great cause of their 2 wounds profiles against the GK constant Smite spam. I chose Stalker over normal rifles, first because of the better range but mainly because of the -2 AP. Since i placed them in separate buildings to ensure some objectives and far away of the "Azrael bubble" the bigger range helped a lot. As for the DW, im still not quite sold on either. Not the simple termies, nor the DK seem to have a strong impact on the battle. Yes they will deliver a great amount of dmg if they manage to make that charge, but its only that. Maybe carried on a LR, yet in this lascannon meta even a LR wont hold much.
In general, the DA only competitive strategy i've found to work so far is the Azrael-PL-Darkshroud bubble. In this bubble i've tried VD, Predators, Razorbacks,Primaris Hellblasters and the Reivers as screeners.So far i think the Predators(full LC loadout) work like a charm protecting the Azrael-PL. This with a couple of Dark Talons for objective control is doing really great in every match i've played. Some things i want to try is adding a Cullexus assasin inside the Azrael bubble especially against heavy Psyking armies or a Vindicare Assasin against swarm/low LD armies like Astra militarum.

So here is the list i tried out this weekend:

Azrael
Belial
Celestine
8 Hellblasters
Repulsor Las-talon, twin lascanon
2x Terminators with assault cannon
Darkshroud

4 squads of elysian snipers
2 squads of elysian heavy weapons
1 elysian commander

First, the elysian snipers, at 21 points we get a 3 man squad with 2 wounds per model, ballistic skill 3 and the same sniper rifle. i find them the most efficient snipers due to their cost, and the fact that there are 4 squads of them opponents have a harder time with splitting their fire.

Elysian heavy weapons paired with commander can be dropped turn one or two anywhere within 2 and commander can give both squads an order to ignore the -1 to hit penalty for moving with heavy wepaons, so they willl be firing at BS4+.

As to how the game went, i was facing RobbyG with
2 razorbacks
1 las predator with chronus
2 dev squads
2 captains
1 librarian
squad of bikes with shields
squad of jump pack veterans
cullexus assasin
maybe missed something

So i fielded snipers on objectives and the hellblasters in repulsor behind a ruin so it doesn't get wrecked on turn one.
Then i got lucky and seized the initiative, since my opponent didn't hide his predator well enough it went down turn one with my repulsor firing all his guns at it.

Snipers managed to put two wounds on the librarian. Terminators nearly wiped out the bikes and got a successfull charge on them. Basically first turn totally wrecked the gunline, the game wasn't much of interest after that. I noticed that celestine can be very helpful for protecting the weak snipers in the backline, she managed to tie up in melee two captains and a squad of veterans for two turns, then i revived her near them to finish the job, i think shes definitely worth the points.

Another interesting thing, elysian heavy weapons squad are dirt cheap and so as the snipers, so it's not big deal to lose them, but they do pose a threat so opponents will have to focus them down, i think their main purpose is distraction.

Hellblasters are amazing i have to say, in rapid-fire range they cracked a razorback in one volley, and i dont think assault version is better due to its lower strength, but maybe mixing them is a good idea to have more firepower and still be able to bring down vehicles with toughness 8 reliably.

In our meta there is no smite spam armies and i'm not worried about one or two librarians, thats why no anti psykers in my list currently.

It's a shame this thread doesn't have much discussion, hopefully the Codex breathes some new life/interest into the DA.

For the Lion, I truly believe he's the next Primarch back, and will be released along with the codex. It just makes too much sense, seeing as how there is no word of the DA codex coming anytime soon and Mortarion was just released.

For abilities, the Lion was always known as the best duelist among the Primarchs, so something based around combat would be very appropriate. What does everyone think the Lion Sword would do? Is allowing El'Jonson to always strike first in the first round of combat too powerful?

 Retrogamer0001 wrote:
It's a shame this thread doesn't have much discussion, hopefully the Codex breathes some new life/interest into the DA.

For the Lion, I truly believe he's the next Primarch back, and will be released along with the codex. It just makes too much sense, seeing as how there is no word of the DA codex coming anytime soon and Mortarion was just released.

For abilities, the Lion was always known as the best duelist among the Primarchs, so something based around combat would be very appropriate. What does everyone think the Lion Sword would do? Is allowing El'Jonson to always strike first in the first round of combat too powerful?

I think it's likely that he will be the next primarch, since he is not lost somewhere in the eye of terror, but as i understand he is supposed to return when things get really ugly. So i think we'll have to wait until some big event happens before getting our hopes up

 Retrogamer0001 wrote:
It's a shame this thread doesn't have much discussion, hopefully the Codex breathes some new life/interest into the DA.

For the Lion, I truly believe he's the next Primarch back, and will be released along with the codex. It just makes too much sense, seeing as how there is no word of the DA codex coming anytime soon and Mortarion was just released.

For abilities, the Lion was always known as the best duelist among the Primarchs, so something based around combat would be very appropriate. What does everyone think the Lion Sword would do? Is allowing El'Jonson to always strike first in the first round of combat too powerful?

Yeah, with everyone getting new toys and rules, our index is getting a bit stale right now. Although the DA usually get screwed over every edition, so i won't hold my breath.

As for the Lion, i'm sure he'll be coming with the codex, but as far as him being a great duelist, i've never read about him being a great duelist in comparison to his brothers. I can think of quite a few others that are much better known as sword fighters/melee combatants, Sanguinius, Fulgrim, and Angron just to name a few. Not saying he's bad in melee, but I wouldn't rank him up there with the best of them. I see the lion as a much more tactical thinking Primarch, more like Guilliman to be honest. Bad part about that is, Guilliman's abilities are so good, i'm not sure what i'd be happy with on Lion El Johnson for aura abilities. I would prefer something that benefits the army, and not rules that just make him good in CC such as always striking first, but that's just my opinion.

bobafett012 wrote:

 Retrogamer0001 wrote:
It's a shame this thread doesn't have much discussion, hopefully the Codex breathes some new life/interest into the DA.

For the Lion, I truly believe he's the next Primarch back, and will be released along with the codex. It just makes too much sense, seeing as how there is no word of the DA codex coming anytime soon and Mortarion was just released.

For abilities, the Lion was always known as the best duelist among the Primarchs, so something based around combat would be very appropriate. What does everyone think the Lion Sword would do? Is allowing El'Jonson to always strike first in the first round of combat too powerful?

Yeah, with everyone getting new toys and rules, our index is getting a bit stale right now. Although the DA usually get screwed over every edition, so i won't hold my breath.

As for the Lion, i'm sure he'll be coming with the codex, but as far as him being a great duelist, i've never read about him being a great duelist in comparison to his brothers. I can think of quite a few others that are much better known as sword fighters/melee combatants, Sanguinius, Fulgrim, and Angron just to name a few. Not saying he's bad in melee, but I wouldn't rank him up there with the best of them. I see the lion as a much more tactical thinking Primarch, more like Guilliman to be honest. Bad part about that is, Guilliman's abilities are so good, i'm not sure what i'd be happy with on Lion El Johnson for aura abilities. I would prefer something that benefits the army, and not rules that just make him good in CC such as always striking first, but that's just my opinion.

He was one of the best. Flat out punked Curze, multiple times, beat Russ (a very close win, but a win).

His niche was being a master tactician, and near unstoppable in a fight. He won't be an army buffer like Guilliman. The Lion didn't make people better. What i'd expect is him to be someone whose peerless in close combat, and possible give something like a significant boost to command points, redeployments, or things like that, to show his ability to command a battlefield.

 djones520 wrote:

bobafett012 wrote:

 Retrogamer0001 wrote:
It's a shame this thread doesn't have much discussion, hopefully the Codex breathes some new life/interest into the DA.

For the Lion, I truly believe he's the next Primarch back, and will be released along with the codex. It just makes too much sense, seeing as how there is no word of the DA codex coming anytime soon and Mortarion was just released.

For abilities, the Lion was always known as the best duelist among the Primarchs, so something based around combat would be very appropriate. What does everyone think the Lion Sword would do? Is allowing El'Jonson to always strike first in the first round of combat too powerful?

Yeah, with everyone getting new toys and rules, our index is getting a bit stale right now. Although the DA usually get screwed over every edition, so i won't hold my breath.

As for the Lion, i'm sure he'll be coming with the codex, but as far as him being a great duelist, i've never read about him being a great duelist in comparison to his brothers. I can think of quite a few others that are much better known as sword fighters/melee combatants, Sanguinius, Fulgrim, and Angron just to name a few. Not saying he's bad in melee, but I wouldn't rank him up there with the best of them. I see the lion as a much more tactical thinking Primarch, more like Guilliman to be honest. Bad part about that is, Guilliman's abilities are so good, i'm not sure what i'd be happy with on Lion El Johnson for aura abilities. I would prefer something that benefits the army, and not rules that just make him good in CC such as always striking first, but that's just my opinion.

He was one of the best. Flat out punked Curze, multiple times, beat Russ (a very close win, but a win).

His niche was being a master tactician, and near unstoppable in a fight. He won't be an army buffer like Guilliman. The Lion didn't make people better. What i'd expect is him to be someone whose peerless in close combat, and possible give something like a significant boost to command points, redeployments, or things like that, to show his ability to command a battlefield.

I've read a lot of Dark Angels, books as well as a ton of other 40k novels and played Dark Angels for 20 years and i've never considered The Lion a beast in CC. He was always known as a tactical genius, always has been. First off he didn't really beat Russ if we're being honest here. They fought for days to a stalemate, at which point Russ found the whole thing funny and started laughing, and The Lion sucker punched him and knocked him out. That's not a peerless fighter winning the duel. Personally, I wouldn't consider Kurze to be one of the best CC fighters of the primarchs, Hell, Corax fought Lorgar and Kurze at the same time and was holding his own for a bit, and Corax isn't up there with the likes of Sanguinius and Fulgrim. I believe Kurze and the Lion have had multiple run ins and The Lion hasn't won them all. The Lion and Russ, and the The Lion and Kurze seem to have some rivalry.

Check out this old poll I found: http://www.heresy-online.net/forums/40k-fluff/85798-who-best-tactical-genius-them.html I wouldn't consider Russ a "tactical genius" when compared to this brothers but that's probably why he only got 2 votes, however the rest I think is spot on.

Timur wrote:

I think it's likely that he will be the next primarch, since he is not lost somewhere in the eye of terror, but as i understand he is supposed to return when things get really ugly. So i think we'll have to wait until some big event happens before getting our hopes up

The Eye of Terror metastasizing and splitting the galaxy in half isn't ugly enough?

bobafett012 wrote:

 djones520 wrote:

bobafett012 wrote:

 Retrogamer0001 wrote:
It's a shame this thread doesn't have much discussion, hopefully the Codex breathes some new life/interest into the DA.

For the Lion, I truly believe he's the next Primarch back, and will be released along with the codex. It just makes too much sense, seeing as how there is no word of the DA codex coming anytime soon and Mortarion was just released.

For abilities, the Lion was always known as the best duelist among the Primarchs, so something based around combat would be very appropriate. What does everyone think the Lion Sword would do? Is allowing El'Jonson to always strike first in the first round of combat too powerful?

Yeah, with everyone getting new toys and rules, our index is getting a bit stale right now. Although the DA usually get screwed over every edition, so i won't hold my breath.

As for the Lion, i'm sure he'll be coming with the codex, but as far as him being a great duelist, i've never read about him being a great duelist in comparison to his brothers. I can think of quite a few others that are much better known as sword fighters/melee combatants, Sanguinius, Fulgrim, and Angron just to name a few. Not saying he's bad in melee, but I wouldn't rank him up there with the best of them. I see the lion as a much more tactical thinking Primarch, more like Guilliman to be honest. Bad part about that is, Guilliman's abilities are so good, i'm not sure what i'd be happy with on Lion El Johnson for aura abilities. I would prefer something that benefits the army, and not rules that just make him good in CC such as always striking first, but that's just my opinion.

He was one of the best. Flat out punked Curze, multiple times, beat Russ (a very close win, but a win).

His niche was being a master tactician, and near unstoppable in a fight. He won't be an army buffer like Guilliman. The Lion didn't make people better. What i'd expect is him to be someone whose peerless in close combat, and possible give something like a significant boost to command points, redeployments, or things like that, to show his ability to command a battlefield.

I've read a lot of Dark Angels, books as well as a ton of other 40k novels and played Dark Angels for 20 years and i've never considered The Lion a beast in CC. He was always known as a tactical genius, always has been. First off he didn't really beat Russ if we're being honest here. They fought for days to a stalemate, at which point Russ found the whole thing funny and started laughing, and The Lion sucker punched him and knocked him out. That's not a peerless fighter winning the duel. Personally, I wouldn't consider Kurze to be one of the best CC fighters of the primarchs, Hell, Corax fought Lorgar and Kurze at the same time and was holding his own for a bit, and Corax isn't up there with the likes of Sanguinius and Fulgrim. I believe Kurze and the Lion have had multiple run ins and The Lion hasn't won them all. The Lion and Russ, and the The Lion and Kurze seem to have some rivalry.

Check out this old poll I found: http://www.heresy-online.net/forums/40k-fluff/85798-who-best-tactical-genius-them.html I wouldn't consider Russ a "tactical genius" when compared to this brothers but that's probably why he only got 2 votes, however the rest I think is spot on.

In one story the Lion destroys an assassin before Reboot Girlyman even notices it was there. Reboot kind've realizes that the Lion could finish him any time he wanted. The Lion also fought with Russ for a day and then knocked him out cold. He's a cc beast AND a tactical genius. I cant wait for his return!

Widied wrote:
The Lion also fought with Russ for a day and then knocked him out cold.

I've been a Dark Angel player for 20 years, and that story has been around for most of that time, and your being so misleading it's just disrespectful to Space Wolves players. Russ stopped fighting him after they fought to a stalemate, started laughing and The Lion sucker punched him. They are equals. So, i'll repeat again, that's not being a "CC Beast", and saying your better in CC than Guilliman is pretty much meaningless. He's not known for being a melee fighter. That's like saying The Lion could destroy Lorgar. Of course he can, he's not a fighter. I'm not saying he's not a good fighter, all the primarchs are no equal amongst men, but out of 18 primarchs, he's not in the top 5, neither is Guilliman, Guilliman's is probably in the bottom 5, where as the lion, should be somewhere in the middle.

So, seeing the list that won the first heat of the Warhammer GT, I'm already thinking of how I'll adapt it to Dark Angels. Basically sub in Azrael and a Primaris Lieutenant for Guilliman (not quite as good as G-man, but as close as we can currently get), put in a couple of Dark Talons in place of the Stormraven, and perhaps that could work. I just don't have 6 TLAC Razorbacks sitting around, or enough Lascannons to outfit 6 Tactical squads with one each.

 ZergSmasher wrote:
So, seeing the list that won the first heat of the Warhammer GT,.

where's this list?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Found it https://www.warhammer-community.com/2017/10/16/the-grand-tournament-heat-1-the-roundup/

They must have a different meta out there. I don't think that would do so well at a major US event.